Early Retirement

[ns3]

When I achieve financial independence, I intend to retire from a traditional 40+ hour/week cubicle job solving shallow consumerist non-problems for profit.

I work at a similar suck-ass job and it's interesting to think how my meek acceptance of this is related to the first few chapters of Genesis in the Bible - where Adam sinned and was thus condemned to live by the futile sweat of his brow. I am either dealing with a fundamental truth of the universe, thus deeply ingrained in human nature or religious conditioning with no basis in truth. Haven't figured out which yet, though I still tend to the former. Probably won't figure it out either but if I do I'll write a book.

[Tyler]

@ns3 -- I'd definitely read that book!  Just my two-cents: One can proudly accept the responsibility of working hard to provide for self and family, but still reject the traditional paths encouraged by modern society.  Jesus was a carpenter and a teacher, building things of lasting value both physically and spiritually.  I don't see him working a desk job today just to afford the SUV to shuttle him to and from the office.  Be sure you're not meekly accepting a purely secular paradigm.

@Desert -- Thanks.  And I completely relate to your assessment of ER personalities.  One of the most important characteristics, IMO, is the willingness to change course in the future.  It sounds like you also share that mindset, so I'm confident that no matter what you do it'll always be a conscious choice of what you feel is best at the moment.  That's a great place to be at any point in life.

EDIT: BTW, I feel inclined to clarify that my current job is actually quite nice.  I might rephrase a previous comment like this:

"When I achieve financial independence, I intend to retire from a traditional 40+ hour/week cubicle job career path solving shallow consumerist non-problems for profit."

My desire for something new is deeper than a change in scenery.

[Kshartle]

When I achieve financial independence, I intend to retire from a traditional 40+ hour/week cubicle career path solving shallow consumerist non-problems for profit.  Even when the work itself is often rewarding, the system is no longer personally conducive to a full life.  With the additional time and freedom, I plan to pursue activities with little regard to financial reward that will help me, my family, and my neighbors both physically, emotionally, and spiritually. 

I really like this.

On a cosmic level, it just seems kind of crazy to me that in order to pursue such fullfilling activities, you first needed to spend time solving shallow consumerist non-problems for profit.

To me it makes perfect sense. All humans consume, we have to. While Tyler is pursuing more enjoyable pursuits he'll need to consume the productivity of others to sustain himself. It only stands to reason he needs to solve the problems of others and provide value to them, either at the same time or beforehand.

It's a balance between production and consumption and a wonderful thing. Solving the problems of others, even if they seem shallow to you, is virtuous and your reward is the right to trade with them to satisy your own. It's what makes all our lives better.

Tyler, don't feel bad about your work man. I'm sure what you do is very important to someone.

BTW - what is financial independence to you?

[Libertarian666]

Thanks Kshartle.  Despite the apparent angst, I don't feel bad about what I do and if I had the chance to do it all over again I'd choose the same career.  I've contributed quite a bit to the world of products, and the best part of my job is meeting people that have used my designs.  But the same thought processes that make me a good designer & engineer also caused me to eventually realize it is within my power to design a self-sustaining financial system and lifestyle (financial independence) that would free me to apply that same creative energy to whatever I choose on my own terms.  Serendipitously, my most lasting design may end up being the system that allows me to walk away from the rat race.

All that said, I also don't want to tempt fate by making it sound like this is all a done deal.    While I've thought about this a lot I'm also naturally flexible and certainly don't take this whole thing lightly.  In the grand scheme of things I'm tremendously lucky.  I have a good job, committing even to taking significant time off is intimidating, and it would be a lot easier if I had the "next" thing in life already queued up.  Once I have the freedom to really choose, I'll just take it day by day.  That's why I totally relate to your points about the difficulty of planning for the really big vague goals, and also appreciate those who are perfectly happy and thankful where they are right now, FI or not.

Anyways, enough about me.  I know there are others here also interested in the subject.  Dragoncar?  Pointedstick?

I actually did walk away from a job that was just okay a few years ago. I was more or less pushed rather than jumping on my own accord, but it was a great feeling to know that I didn't have to worry too much about how I was going to pay the bills.

I came out of "retirement" a couple of years later due to the availability of a job that seemed reasonably appropriate to my abilities, which it has turned out to be. Again, if it turns sour for some reason I can always dump it, and that is definitely a stress reducer.

After this, who knows? I have an idea for a new networking/social media site that I can't discuss until we have something to launch. I'm also aware of a possible opening at another employer elsewhere in the country but I would need a couple of months of study before I would be ready for the interview process.

However, none of this is really on topic since retirement even at my current age wouldn't really qualify as "early".

[Tyler]

NOTE: I deleted this post with the intention to edit it, but Libertarian666 quoted it.  No worries.  I've reposted it (out of order) to help the conversation make sense.

Thanks Kshartle.  Despite the apparent angst, I don't feel bad about what I do and if I had the chance to do it all over again I'd choose the same career.  I've contributed quite a bit to the world of products, and the best part of my job is meeting people that have used my designs.  But the same thought processes that make me a good designer & engineer also caused me to eventually realize it is within my power to design a self-sustaining financial system and lifestyle (financial independence) that would free me to apply that same creative energy to whatever I choose on my own terms.  Serendipitously, my most lasting design may end up being the system that allows me to walk away from the rat race.

All that said, I also don't want to tempt fate by making it sound like this is all a done deal.    While I've thought about this a lot I'm also naturally flexible and certainly don't take this whole thing lightly.  In the grand scheme of things I'm tremendously lucky.  I have a good job, committing even to taking significant time off is intimidating, and it would be a lot easier if I had the "next" thing in life already queued up.  Once I have the freedom to really choose, I'll just take it day by day.  That's why I totally relate to your points about the difficulty of planning for the really big vague goals, and also appreciate those who are perfectly happy and thankful where they are right now, FI or not.

Anyways, enough about me.  I know there are others here also interested in the subject.  Dragoncar?  Pointedstick?

[Pointedstick]

Anyways, enough about me.  I know there are others here also interested in the subject.  Dragoncar?  Pointedstick?

I'm gunning for ERE as well. Right now I have a fun, fairly high-powered engineering job where I help produce products that millions of people eagerly enjoy. It's intellectually, emotionally, and financially rewarding, but it's also extremely time-consuming and exhausting, and it's those drawbacks that I'm hoping to escape from. The problem with engineering is that you get obsolete really quickly unless you make the jump to management or constantly keep on top of learning new skills, which causes the exact kind of exhaustion that I'm starting to tire of, and I really don't like managing others that much. I just recovered from an obviously stress-induced illness that made me realize just how much my job is taking out of me.

I'd really love to be a small businessman, and I did that for about two years and really enjoyed it, but I had to stop due to the competing demands on my time catching up with me. There simply weren't enough hours in the day for me to work at a full-time job, nurture my small business, spend enough time with my wife and son, renovate my new home, and have enough downtime to stay sane. My business didn't quite produce enough income for me to be comfortable quitting my job. Removing an 8-11 hour-a-day time committment will, I hope, give me the freedom to pursue such ventures more easily.

My "number" is $500,000 plus a paid-off house. Withdrawing 4% a year (pretty safe with the PP) provides about $1,700 a month to cover food, health insurance, car expenses, entertainment, utilities, cell phones, travel, property taxes, and miscellaneous other things. That all pretty much fits right now.

Of course, I can't imagine spending all that time never again producing anything cool for other people, so I expect that there will be at least some income from side businesses to take the heat off the portfolio. Producing $1,000 a month wasn't really very hard for me. Right now I think becoming a licensed natural gas plumber would be awesome. The work looks fun and you can charge ridiculously high rates for not a lot of time spent on the job. I just paid a dude nearly $2,000 for two days of work that was like 90% labor; the raw materials cost him less than $200 (you can buy them at Home Depot).

[dragoncar]

Anyways, enough about me.  I know there are others here also interested in the subject.  Dragoncar?  Pointedstick?

I'm gunning for ERE as well. Right now I have a fun, fairly high-powered engineering job where I help produce products that millions of people eagerly enjoy. It's intellectually, emotionally, and financially rewarding, but it's also extremely time-consuming and exhausting, and it's those drawbacks that I'm hoping to escape from. The problem with engineering is that you get obsolete really quickly unless you make the jump to management or constantly keep on top of learning new skills, which causes the exact kind of exhaustion that I'm starting to tire of, and I really don't like managing others that much. I just recovered from an obviously stress-induced illness that made me realize just how much my job is taking out of me.

I'd really love to be a small businessman, and I did that for about two years and really enjoyed it, but I had to stop due to the competing demands on my time catching up with me. There simply weren't enough hours in the day for me to work at a full-time job, nurture my small business, spend enough time with my wife and son, renovate my new home, and have enough downtime to stay sane. My business didn't quite produce enough income for me to be comfortable quitting my job. Removing an 8-11 hour-a-day time committment will, I hope, give me the freedom to pursue such ventures more easily.

My "number" is $500,000 plus a paid-off house. Withdrawing 4% a year (pretty safe with the PP) provides about $1,700 a month to cover food, health insurance, car expenses, entertainment, utilities, cell phones, travel, property taxes, and miscellaneous other things. That all pretty much fits right now.

Of course, I can't imagine spending all that time never again producing anything cool for other people, so I expect that there will be at least some income from side businesses to take the heat off the portfolio. Producing $1,000 a month wasn't really very hard for me. Right now I think becoming a licensed natural gas plumber would be awesome. The work looks fun and you can charge ridiculously high rates for not a lot of time spent on the job. I just paid a dude nearly $2,000 for two days of work that was like 90% labor; the raw materials cost him less than $200 (you can buy them at Home Depot).

Same concept here.  These days I hang out mostly on mrmoneymustache.com, but I'm a bit burned out discussing early retirement and mostly post snarky comments.

[annieB]

Interesting reading.Thanks .

[frugal]

Anyways, enough about me.  I know there are others here also interested in the subject.  Dragoncar?  Pointedstick?

I'm gunning for ERE as well. Right now I have a fun, fairly high-powered engineering job where I help produce products that millions of people eagerly enjoy. It's intellectually, emotionally, and financially rewarding, but it's also extremely time-consuming and exhausting, and it's those drawbacks that I'm hoping to escape from. The problem with engineering is that you get obsolete really quickly unless you make the jump to management or constantly keep on top of learning new skills, which causes the exact kind of exhaustion that I'm starting to tire of, and I really don't like managing others that much. I just recovered from an obviously stress-induced illness that made me realize just how much my job is taking out of me.

I'd really love to be a small businessman, and I did that for about two years and really enjoyed it, but I had to stop due to the competing demands on my time catching up with me. There simply weren't enough hours in the day for me to work at a full-time job, nurture my small business, spend enough time with my wife and son, renovate my new home, and have enough downtime to stay sane. My business didn't quite produce enough income for me to be comfortable quitting my job. Removing an 8-11 hour-a-day time committment will, I hope, give me the freedom to pursue such ventures more easily.

My "number" is $500,000 plus a paid-off house. Withdrawing 4% a year (pretty safe with the PP) provides about $1,700 a month to cover food, health insurance, car expenses, entertainment, utilities, cell phones, travel, property taxes, and miscellaneous other things. That all pretty much fits right now.

Of course, I can't imagine spending all that time never again producing anything cool for other people, so I expect that there will be at least some income from side businesses to take the heat off the portfolio. Producing $1,000 a month wasn't really very hard for me. Right now I think becoming a licensed natural gas plumber would be awesome. The work looks fun and you can charge ridiculously high rates for not a lot of time spent on the job. I just paid a dude nearly $2,000 for two days of work that was like 90% labor; the raw materials cost him less than $200 (you can buy them at Home Depot).

I don't think it is easy to have a part time job after ERE.

Competion is increasing every day... you have to do it all day again...

[Pointedstick]

I don't think it is easy to have a part time job after ERE.

Competion is increasing every day... you have to do it all day again...

Who said anything about easy? It's not easy to have a full-time job, either! For me, it's not about having an easier life; it's about having the time to tackle enjoyable challenges.

And it depends on the field. When it comes to contractors and esoteric trades, competition is actually lessening as more and more kids are needlessly pushed into higher education. It's why my gas plumber charged me basically $120/hour. He couldn't get away with that kind of rate if there were 30 more guys like him in the city where I live.

[frugal]

I don't think it is easy to have a part time job after ERE.

Competion is increasing every day... you have to do it all day again...

Who said anything about easy? It's not easy to have a full-time job, either! For me, it's not about having an easier life; it's about having the time to tackle enjoyable challenges.

And it depends on the field. When it comes to contractors and esoteric trades, competition is actually lessening as more and more kids are needlessly pushed into higher education. It's why my gas plumber charged me basically $120/hour. He couldn't get away with that kind of rate if there were 30 more guys like him in the city where I live.

expensive US life!

I will think about it... but you are right, old profissions are becoming more attractive.

[Tyler]

I don't think it is easy to have a part time job after ERE.

Competion is increasing every day... you have to do it all day again...

Job competition and employment volatility are risks for all jobs.  From my perspective, ERE provides healthy risk mitigation.

Also, financial independence favors the "renaissance man" (in Jacob ERE terms) who has the mindset to generate value directly for himself and others rather than depend on someone else either for labor or for a paycheck. See Pointedstick's example of learning a valuable trade.

[annieB]

When I was coming up,work was more enjoyable.Life was more enjoyable.
Now everything seems mean.Gotta watch your back on everything.
Lots more stress.
Too bad....

[Reub]

I retired early (age 56) not because I wanted to, but because that is the maximum age that the Federal Aviation Administration will allow an air traffic controller to work. If it were up to me I'd still be doing it, albeit with a major effect on my health and probable longevity.

I would suggest that those now entering the workforce looking for an early retirement look for professions in certain civil service fields such as air traffic controller, law enforcement, fire fighting, teaching, etc. I saw firsthand how much the present system benefits those in civil service/government jobs with relatively high salaries, time off, various perks, tax advantages, fantastic retirement options, and non-Obamacare health insurance.

[Kshartle]

I retired early (age 56) not because I wanted to, but because that is the maximum age that the Federal Aviation Administration will allow an air traffic controller to work. If it were up to me I'd still be doing it, albeit with a major effect on my health and probable longevity.

I would suggest that those now entering the workforce looking for an early retirement look for professions in certain civil service fields such as air traffic controller, law enforcement, fire fighting, teaching, etc. I saw firsthand how much the present system benefits those in civil service/government jobs with relatively high salaries, time off, various perks, tax advantages, fantastic retirement options, and non-Obamacare health insurance.

Unless the pension is defaulted on. Isn't that happening in Detroit.

The power to tax does make government employment secure, but there comes a time when the market rejects the debt levels and theft levels. Since the market isn't actually providing the profit via exchange of value, the positions are subject to political expediency rather than value creation.

Not saying those jobs aren't valuable, just that it's not market driven so we don't acutally know the legitimate price...just the artificially high one.

[frugal]

Anyways, enough about me.  I know there are others here also interested in the subject.  Dragoncar?  Pointedstick?

I'm gunning for ERE as well. Right now I have a fun, fairly high-powered engineering job where I help produce products that millions of people eagerly enjoy. It's intellectually, emotionally, and financially rewarding, but it's also extremely time-consuming and exhausting, and it's those drawbacks that I'm hoping to escape from. The problem with engineering is that you get obsolete really quickly unless you make the jump to management or constantly keep on top of learning new skills, which causes the exact kind of exhaustion that I'm starting to tire of, and I really don't like managing others that much. I just recovered from an obviously stress-induced illness that made me realize just how much my job is taking out of me.

I'd really love to be a small businessman, and I did that for about two years and really enjoyed it, but I had to stop due to the competing demands on my time catching up with me. There simply weren't enough hours in the day for me to work at a full-time job, nurture my small business, spend enough time with my wife and son, renovate my new home, and have enough downtime to stay sane. My business didn't quite produce enough income for me to be comfortable quitting my job. Removing an 8-11 hour-a-day time committment will, I hope, give me the freedom to pursue such ventures more easily.

My "number" is $500,000 plus a paid-off house. Withdrawing 4% a year (pretty safe with the PP) provides about $1,700 a month to cover food, health insurance, car expenses, entertainment, utilities, cell phones, travel, property taxes, and miscellaneous other things. That all pretty much fits right now.

Of course, I can't imagine spending all that time never again producing anything cool for other people, so I expect that there will be at least some income from side businesses to take the heat off the portfolio. Producing $1,000 a month wasn't really very hard for me. Right now I think becoming a licensed natural gas plumber would be awesome. The work looks fun and you can charge ridiculously high rates for not a lot of time spent on the job. I just paid a dude nearly $2,000 for two days of work that was like 90% labor; the raw materials cost him less than $200 (you can buy them at Home Depot).

Hi

do you have any excel spreadsheet for ERE calculation?

Regards

[dragoncar]

Anyways, enough about me.  I know there are others here also interested in the subject.  Dragoncar?  Pointedstick?

I'm gunning for ERE as well. Right now I have a fun, fairly high-powered engineering job where I help produce products that millions of people eagerly enjoy. It's intellectually, emotionally, and financially rewarding, but it's also extremely time-consuming and exhausting, and it's those drawbacks that I'm hoping to escape from. The problem with engineering is that you get obsolete really quickly unless you make the jump to management or constantly keep on top of learning new skills, which causes the exact kind of exhaustion that I'm starting to tire of, and I really don't like managing others that much. I just recovered from an obviously stress-induced illness that made me realize just how much my job is taking out of me.

I'd really love to be a small businessman, and I did that for about two years and really enjoyed it, but I had to stop due to the competing demands on my time catching up with me. There simply weren't enough hours in the day for me to work at a full-time job, nurture my small business, spend enough time with my wife and son, renovate my new home, and have enough downtime to stay sane. My business didn't quite produce enough income for me to be comfortable quitting my job. Removing an 8-11 hour-a-day time committment will, I hope, give me the freedom to pursue such ventures more easily.

My "number" is $500,000 plus a paid-off house. Withdrawing 4% a year (pretty safe with the PP) provides about $1,700 a month to cover food, health insurance, car expenses, entertainment, utilities, cell phones, travel, property taxes, and miscellaneous other things. That all pretty much fits right now.

Of course, I can't imagine spending all that time never again producing anything cool for other people, so I expect that there will be at least some income from side businesses to take the heat off the portfolio. Producing $1,000 a month wasn't really very hard for me. Right now I think becoming a licensed natural gas plumber would be awesome. The work looks fun and you can charge ridiculously high rates for not a lot of time spent on the job. I just paid a dude nearly $2,000 for two days of work that was like 90% labor; the raw materials cost him less than $200 (you can buy them at Home Depot).

Hi

do you have any excel spreadsheet for ERE calculation?

Regards

Try some calculators: http://mustachecalc.com/

[barrett]

dragoncar, Thanks for sharing those calculators. I spent some time on the MMM site earlier this year but got all bummed out because I am a spending mofo compared to everyone else on there. The car calculator gave me a surprisingly good result though. I had been relying on the # I read in consumer reports a while back.

[frugal]

1 decade to go 

and you?

[barrett]

Frugal,

If you are talking about when I can retire, well it all kinda depends on what number I put in for annual expenses. I have a wife and a daughter. My wife works hard and is a good saver but also loves nice stuff. Our daughter will be in college at least 2016-2020 so that is a big unknown expense. Best to save a bit too much but I also don't look at financial independence as a great opportunity to sit on my backside and not produce anything. I'll probably make some money from something or other. I loved something that Medium Tex posted way back which is that even if you only make $8,000 a year, that's still equivalent to drawing 4% on $200,000 of savings.

[Pointedstick]

. Our daughter will be in college at least 2016-2020 so that is a big unknown expense.

You can make it a known expense by simply not paying for it.

Expensive colleges are ridiculously overrated. What you get out of your college experience IMHO depends almost entirely on what you put in. So if your daughter is a bright and motivated student who wants to study something challenging and useful (i.e. that doesn't have the word "studies" in it), then it probably doesn't much matter where she goes as long as it's big enough to have a lot of choices, so that rules out most pricey boutique liberal arts schools. By the same token, if your daughter is not self-motivated, doesn't have any standout skills or interests, and is attracted to easy and highly subjective subjects, then it barely matters where she goes since all schools are set up to accommodate that and she will likely have a fun and enlightening time at any of them. And a degree in a low-value subject doesn't become much more valuable when it's issued by a more expensive school.

IMHO.

[Mountaineer]

. Our daughter will be in college at least 2016-2020 so that is a big unknown expense.

Expensive colleges are ridiculously overrated. What you get out of your college experience IMHO depends almost entirely on what you put in.

IMHO.

I had some recruiting responsibilities (hiring engineers) off and on in my career at a Fortune 50 company.  I retired almost 13 years ago so take my input for what it is worth 

I agree with what Pointedstick says.  It did not matter much whether you were from a highly prestigious school (e.g. MIT, Ga Tech, Purdue, Cornell, etc.) or a podunk school (WV Tech or Slippery Rock - no offence intended).  Starting salaries, and whether you were extended an offer or a trip to come visit a facility at all, depended highly on grade point average, class rank, extra curricular work including summer employment in the trade, and of course the general economy at the time and how you did during the on-site interview process.  Also depended (warning - un-PC comment) on gender and ethnic background and whether any of certain categories were needed to comply with government guidelines.  It may be completely different now.

... Mountaineer

[frugal]

Frugal,

If you are talking about when I can retire, well it all kinda depends on what number I put in for annual expenses. I have a wife and a daughter. My wife works hard and is a good saver but also loves nice stuff. Our daughter will be in college at least 2016-2020 so that is a big unknown expense. Best to save a bit too much but I also don't look at financial independence as a great opportunity to sit on my backside and not produce anything. I'll probably make some money from something or other. I loved something that Medium Tex posted way back which is that even if you only make $8,000 a year, that's still equivalent to drawing 4% on $200,000 of savings.

Hi,

what is that part-time job?

I don't find one...

[Tyler]

what is that part-time job?

I don't find one...

I think a fun part time job is one of those mystical things that manifest most when you aren't looking. When you're in a relaxed mindset, opportunities become a lot more obvious and interesting.

[barrett]

The thought of going to a prestigious college has been the carrot at the end of the stick for our daughter. Her goal of going to a great school has encouraged her to work harder in middle school and now in high school. Yes, a lot of her efforts are grade focussed, but several years of working hard builds good work habits, no? At least that is how I look at it. It's great to be driven to learn for the sake of learning but most kids aren't wired that way.

Also, not to be forgotten is how many outstanding colleges there are here in the US.

Just my thoughts. I only went to one year of college so don't have the experience that you all have.