Ted Cruz as a presidential candidate

[Pointedstick]

I agree with Mdraf: getting elected trumps everything else. Let's suppose someone had actual iron-clad proof that Obama was born in Kenya and that his mother was not a citizen when he was born. What difference would that make? Who would have the authority to remove him from office, and if there is someone like that, would they actually do it? I say even if there were someone like that, they would not do it.

Agree 100%.

[Coffee]

Rand Paul will never, ever get the nomination.  His position on open borders (and probably a lot of other stuff) will ensure that.

He'd have to run as a Democrat to get the nomination with that position.

[Ad Orientem]

I agree with Mdraf: getting elected trumps everything else. Let's suppose someone had actual iron-clad proof that Obama was born in Kenya and that his mother was not a citizen when he was born. What difference would that make? Who would have the authority to remove him from office, and if there is someone like that, would they actually do it? I say even if there were someone like that, they would not do it.

I think that if your hypothetical were true and irrefutable evidence were produced that it might bring down the entire United States Government. Because if Obama were born outside the country and his mother was not a who we have been told she was, then...

* There has indeed been a massive conspiracy, probably the greatest in history to install a foreign national in the White House.
* This conspiracy would have to include at a minimum, the former and current governors of Hawaii (one Republican, one Democrat), a substantial number of persons including senior officials in the Hawaii state department of vital statistics in order to create and certify as authentic a forged birth certificate, most of the White House Press corps and dozens of reputable reporters who have investigated the story and firmly stated that the Birthers are full of $HYT, the FBI CIA and Secret Service who must have known and colluded, independent forensic experts who have examined the relevant documents and pronounced them true, local press who duly posted false notices of Obama's birth way back in 1962 in the local papers they must have been in on the half century old plot to hijack the American presidency with an African Manchurian Candidate... and so on. In short this would be the most demonic conspiracy since the fluoridation of our drinking water.
*Presumably such a conspiracy would have to have involved foreign powers or agents unknown.

Such an event would almost certainly and irreversibly shatter the credibility of the government and likely lead to the end of the Federal Union or armed revolt.

But on the upside, World Nut Daily would be at the head of the line for the next round of Pulitzer Prizes.

[moda0306]

Rand Paul will never, ever get the nomination.  His position on open borders (and probably a lot of other stuff) will ensure that.

He'd have to run as a Democrat to get the nomination with that position.

Rand Paul has said what most quasi-libertarians state... You can't have open borders in a welfare state.

I think that unlike Ron, Rand's brand of conservatism has just enough bible thumps and bomb blasts to please Republicans in a primary. Unlike Ron, Rand will complain about Muslims building a community center in Manhattan, and will refrain from reminding Americans of America's hiccups overseas at every turn.

However, I don't think he'll make it to the Oval Office.  There's simply too many questions to ask of someone who likes to make claims that universal healthcare is supporting slavery.  Eventually you tend to get the feeling with these libertarians that they're either frauds, or that they've got an agenda to utterly dismantle not just scary new healthcare programs but comfy old ones.

[MediumTex]

Obama would resign if it turned out he had been lying the whole time about where he was born.

Think about it.  The media would smell blood in the water and wouldn't quit until he resigned, just like they did with Nixon.

The sweet and fluffy media coverage Obama had been receiving since 2008 ended when it was revealed earlier this year that his administration had been tapping the phones of reporters.  That was the definitive end of the honeymoon between Obama and the media.

They wouldn't mind a bit taking him down at this point if it turned out that he had perpetrated such a massive and coordinated fraud.

He wouldn't want to resign, but he eventually would.

[Ad Orientem]

Obama would resign if it turned out he had been lying the whole time about where he was born.

Think about it.  The media would smell blood in the water and wouldn't quit until he resigned, just like they did with Nixon.

The sweet and fluffy media coverage Obama had been receiving since 2008 ended when it was revealed earlier this year that his administration had been tapping the phones of reporters.  That was the definitive end of the honeymoon between Obama and the media.

They wouldn't mind a bit taking him down at this point if it turned out that he had perpetrated such a massive and coordinated fraud.

He wouldn't want to resign, but he eventually would.

If he didn't resign and assuming the government didn't fall, he would be impeached. And my guess is the Democrats would be leading the charge to save their political skins.

[moda0306]

Rand Paul will never, ever get the nomination.  His position on open borders (and probably a lot of other stuff) will ensure that.

He'd have to run as a Democrat to get the nomination with that position.

Rand Paul has said what most quasi-libertarians state... You can't have open borders in a welfare state.

I think that unlike Ron, Rand's brand of conservatism has just enough bible thumps and bomb blasts to please Republicans in a primary. Unlike Ron, Rand will complain about Muslims building a community center in Manhattan, and will refrain from reminding Americans of America's hiccups overseas at every turn.

However, I don't think he'll make it to the Oval Office.  There's simply too many questions to ask of someone who likes to make claims that universal healthcare is supporting slavery.  Eventually you tend to get the feeling with these libertarians that they're either frauds, or that they've got an agenda to utterly dismantle not just scary new healthcare programs but comfy old ones.

Of course no one can argue with feelings. But if one were to be concerned with other things, such as reason and justice, then one might come to different conclusions.

Ad,

I wasn't judging their motivations. Just a simplistic take on who the broad electorate is going to see in office if they're libertarian enough.  Eventually they're going to see a man that wants to "take away their Medicare."

Judging libertarian motivations is an entirely different wonderful debate.  They certainly aren't devoid of a mind for reason and justice... In fact they're some of the best in that department at times... Not often enough, though .

I find the other political movement that has an equally lock-tight argument is the Green Party.  It's pretty hard to argue against the idea that in the quest for private property we're doing immeasurable long-term externality damage that's not being accounted for properly, and that any system that recognizes property but glosses over these facts is terribly skewed and bordering on illegitimate.

Everything else seems like just random grasps at statism for one social engineering priority or another.

Though I have to admit I haven't read into your anarchist/monarchist business. It sounds like a farce to me on the surface but I like a lot of your posts so someday I'll check it out .

[moda0306]

Obama would resign if it turned out he had been lying the whole time about where he was born.

Think about it.  The media would smell blood in the water and wouldn't quit until he resigned, just like they did with Nixon.

The sweet and fluffy media coverage Obama had been receiving since 2008 ended when it was revealed earlier this year that his administration had been tapping the phones of reporters.  That was the definitive end of the honeymoon between Obama and the media.

They wouldn't mind a bit taking him down at this point if it turned out that he had perpetrated such a massive and coordinated fraud.

He wouldn't want to resign, but he eventually would.

If he didn't resign and assuming the government didn't fall, he would be impeached. And my guess is the Democrats would be leading the charge to save their political skins.

He would not resign. He would undoubtedly be impeached, as the House is under R control. He would undoubtedly not be convicted, as the Senate is under D control.

It's as simple as that.

Undoubtedly?  So you don't think that there's a chance dens might see it as political suicide to support a man who has just been proven not only to not be a legitimate president, but has engaged in a massive coverup?

I'm not assigning them any dignity... Just an instinct of self-preservation. 

[MediumTex]

Obama would resign if it turned out he had been lying the whole time about where he was born.

Think about it.  The media would smell blood in the water and wouldn't quit until he resigned, just like they did with Nixon.

The sweet and fluffy media coverage Obama had been receiving since 2008 ended when it was revealed earlier this year that his administration had been tapping the phones of reporters.  That was the definitive end of the honeymoon between Obama and the media.

They wouldn't mind a bit taking him down at this point if it turned out that he had perpetrated such a massive and coordinated fraud.

He wouldn't want to resign, but he eventually would.

If he didn't resign and assuming the government didn't fall, he would be impeached. And my guess is the Democrats would be leading the charge to save their political skins.

He would not resign. He would undoubtedly be impeached, as the House is under R control. He would undoubtedly not be convicted, as the Senate is under D control.

It's as simple as that.

He would resign, just like Nixon did.

Nixon resisted it with all his might, but when his situation became clear he resigned.

Hillary Clinton would be the one to finally sit Obama down and have a serious talk with him, and there could only be one possible end to that conversation.  Hillary has come too far and kicked too many asses to let something like that poison the well for the Democratic nominee in 2016.

[Libertarian666]

If he didn't resign and assuming the government didn't fall, he would be impeached. And my guess is the Democrats would be leading the charge to save their political skins.

He would not resign. He would undoubtedly be impeached, as the House is under R control. He would undoubtedly not be convicted, as the Senate is under D control.

It's as simple as that.

Undoubtedly?  So you don't think that there's a chance dens might see it as political suicide to support a man who has just been proven not only to not be a legitimate president, but has engaged in a massive coverup?

I'm not assigning them any dignity... Just an instinct of self-preservation.

I have no doubt that they would play the "racist victim" card, which absolves everyone for anything, if they are "qualified".
As said by a non-politician, "Winning isn't everything; it's the only thing."

[RuralEngineer]

If evidence came out showing Obama was not a natural born citizen and there had been some conspiracy, the Dems and the GOP would be fighting each other to see who got to light the wood stacked under Obama after he was tied to the post.  Anyone who thinks the Dems would continue to stick up for him after that kind of info came out is just not familiar with the political historical record.  These people put self preservation #1 and they'd have to cut any ties to Obama as fast as possible and try and scrub off any remaining stink as best they could before the next election.  The best way to do that is to be the loudest voice calling for his head.  There might be one or two true believers out there, but the vast majority would not support him.

[murphy_p_t]

I agree with Mdraf: getting elected trumps everything else. Let's suppose someone had actual iron-clad proof that Obama was born in Kenya and that his mother was not a citizen when he was born. What difference would that make? Who would have the authority to remove him from office, and if there is someone like that, would they actually do it? I say even if there were someone like that, they would not do it.

I think that if your hypothetical were true and irrefutable evidence were produced that it might bring down the entire United States Government. Because if Obama were born outside the country and his mother was not a who we have been told she was, then...

* There has indeed been a massive conspiracy, probably the greatest in history to install a foreign national in the White House.
* This conspiracy would have to include at a minimum, the former and current governors of Hawaii (one Republican, one Democrat), a substantial number of persons including senior officials in the Hawaii state department of vital statistics in order to create and certify as authentic a forged birth certificate, most of the White House Press corps and dozens of reputable reporters who have investigated the story and firmly stated that the Birthers are full of $HYT, the FBI CIA and Secret Service who must have known and colluded, independent forensic experts who have examined the relevant documents and pronounced them true, local press who duly posted false notices of Obama's birth way back in 1962 in the local papers they must have been in on the half century old plot to hijack the American presidency with an African Manchurian Candidate... and so on. In short this would be the most demonic conspiracy since the fluoridation of our drinking water.
*Presumably such a conspiracy would have to have involved foreign powers or agents unknown.

Such an event would almost certainly and irreversibly shatter the credibility of the government and likely lead to the end of the Federal Union or armed revolt.

But on the upside, World Nut Daily would be at the head of the line for the next round of Pulitzer Prizes.

You have a lot of trust in the corporate media performing the watchdog role a free and independent media is expected to...I acknowledge your faith.

[murphy_p_t]

If evidence came out showing Obama was not a natural born citizen and there had been some conspiracy, the Dems and the GOP would be fighting each other to see who got to light the wood stacked under Obama after he was tied to the post.  Anyone who thinks the Dems would continue to stick up for him after that kind of info came out is just not familiar with the political historical record.  These people put self preservation #1 and they'd have to cut any ties to Obama as fast as possible and try and scrub off any remaining stink as best they could before the next election.  The best way to do that is to be the loudest voice calling for his head.  There might be one or two true believers out there, but the vast majority would not support him.

I'm not so sure. Do you think, in these politicians, it is impossible that they act collectively like mob action and "madness of crowds"?

Keep in mind, the Democrat party chose Obama as their stand-bearer....if they tear him down, there's lots of collateral damage to their own agendas.

[Mdraf]

If evidence came out showing Obama was not a natural born citizen and there had been some conspiracy, the Dems and the GOP would be fighting each other to see who got to light the wood stacked under Obama after he was tied to the post.  Anyone who thinks the Dems would continue to stick up for him after that kind of info came out is just not familiar with the political historical record.  These people put self preservation #1 and they'd have to cut any ties to Obama as fast as possible and try and scrub off any remaining stink as best they could before the next election.  The best way to do that is to be the loudest voice calling for his head.  There might be one or two true believers out there, but the vast majority would not support him.

Then they should already be vying for that position. Far from requiring a conspiracy theory to be investigated, he has boasted about his acts of murdering US citizens, based on a bill of attainder. That is a direct violation of the Constitution and the Bill of Rights, and therefore required his immediate impeachment and removal of office.

Somehow I don't recall that happening. Am I getting senile?

I agree. Even if proof came out that he was the grandson of Goebbels and card carrying member  of Al Qaeda nothing would happen. Politics have changed. It's "us against them" and all is fair when it comes to staying or attaining power.  Even some elections are now questionable when suddenly new ballots are found  (Allen West,  Martha McSally)

[moda0306]

If evidence came out showing Obama was not a natural born citizen and there had been some conspiracy, the Dems and the GOP would be fighting each other to see who got to light the wood stacked under Obama after he was tied to the post.  Anyone who thinks the Dems would continue to stick up for him after that kind of info came out is just not familiar with the political historical record.  These people put self preservation #1 and they'd have to cut any ties to Obama as fast as possible and try and scrub off any remaining stink as best they could before the next election.  The best way to do that is to be the loudest voice calling for his head.  There might be one or two true believers out there, but the vast majority would not support him.

Then they should already be vying for that position. Far from requiring a conspiracy theory to be investigated, he has boasted about his acts of murdering US citizens, based on a bill of attainder. That is a direct violation of the Constitution and the Bill of Rights, and therefore required his immediate impeachment and removal of office.

Somehow I don't recall that happening. Am I getting senile?

Nobody's saying that every illegal act would be dealt with this way.  Only ones that are so politically damaging to the dems.  Most people don't actually care much if a suspected terrorist that dies overseas is an American citizen... for the most part people are most concerned about citizens dying on American soil, and those will be different people once a new presidential party is elected. 

Americans would freak the hell out if there was conclusive proof Obama was born outside the U.S. AND there was a massive, multi-level coverup of that.  Dems would run away from him like crazy.  It would be political suicide.

The world hasn't changed.  This "sky is falling... politicians are more evil now" melodrama isn't necessary.  It's the same as it always was.  We aren't arguing that they'd do this for benevolent reasons... simply political expediency.  Cut the cancer out and start over for the sake of getting elected next term when the independents are poised to lean heavily Republican.

Oh and there would be the small matter of an armed revolution by 25% of the country we'd have to contend with.

[MediumTex]

If it turned out that Obama had lied about his place of birth, I'm pretty sure that one or more state attorneys general would be going after him for some kind of election fraud in 2008 and 2012 related to fraudulent information on election filings (or something like that).

I think that several of those legal actions, some of which would probably be criminal, would get the ball rolling on what would end with his resignation.

There would almost certainly be criminal charges filed in Hawaii related to falsification of governmental records.

[Mdraf]

If it turned out that Obama had lied about his place of birth, I'm pretty sure that one or more state attorneys general would be going after him for some kind of election fraud in 2008 and 2012 related to fraudulent information on election filings (or something like that).

I think that several of those legal actions, some of which would probably be criminal, would get the ball rolling on what would end with his resignation.

There would almost certainly be criminal charges filed in Hawaii related to falsification of governmental records.

Yes but you'd have to have proof first.  And with all the obfuscation it's pretty much impossible. My theory is that he was actually born in Hawaii but he later passed himself off as a foreign student to get preferential admission to Occidental, Columbia and Harvard.  That's why  he keeps his college records sealed.

[RuralEngineer]

If evidence came out showing Obama was not a natural born citizen and there had been some conspiracy, the Dems and the GOP would be fighting each other to see who got to light the wood stacked under Obama after he was tied to the post.  Anyone who thinks the Dems would continue to stick up for him after that kind of info came out is just not familiar with the political historical record.  These people put self preservation #1 and they'd have to cut any ties to Obama as fast as possible and try and scrub off any remaining stink as best they could before the next election.  The best way to do that is to be the loudest voice calling for his head.  There might be one or two true believers out there, but the vast majority would not support him.

Then they should already be vying for that position. Far from requiring a conspiracy theory to be investigated, he has boasted about his acts of murdering US citizens, based on a bill of attainder. That is a direct violation of the Constitution and the Bill of Rights, and therefore required his immediate impeachment and removal of office.

Somehow I don't recall that happening. Am I getting senile?

Apples and oranges.  You're talking about violations of the Constitutions analogous to those that Congress does every day before breakfast now.  As far as provocations go, it's about like insulting someone's mother vs. stabbing them in the groin with a rusty knife.  They're just not on the same level and people aren't as willing to let one slide.  Even if the Dems attempted to let it slide, there would be armed insurrection and I don't think they're willing to let that happen.  They'll sacrifice B.O. before they see the country burn to the ground.

[MediumTex]

If it turned out that Obama had lied about his place of birth, I'm pretty sure that one or more state attorneys general would be going after him for some kind of election fraud in 2008 and 2012 related to fraudulent information on election filings (or something like that).

I think that several of those legal actions, some of which would probably be criminal, would get the ball rolling on what would end with his resignation.

There would almost certainly be criminal charges filed in Hawaii related to falsification of governmental records.

Yes but you'd have to have proof first.  And with all the obfuscation it's pretty much impossible. My theory is that he was actually born in Hawaii but he later passed himself off as a foreign student to get preferential admission to Occidental, Columbia and Harvard.  That's why  he keeps his college records sealed.

I think that is probably accurate.

That whole book jacket/literary agent thing that said he was born in Kenya was probably just done out of habit after many years of doing similar stuff in other situations.

It's not unusual for people to play up some exotic origin story.  I once knew a guy who was born in Texas but who had spent much of his childhood in Australia before moving back to Texas.  When he moved back to Texas he tried to downplay the Australia thing and just be another kid.  His Australian accent was very faint and faded to the point that it wasn't detectable.  Fast forward a few years, however, and this same guy is doing stand up comedy and his whole act is based upon him being an Australian who was commenting on life in the U.S.  Part of his act was talking about growing up in Australia, listening to the BBC, etc.  No mention of Texas. 

I think that Obama probably did something like this with Kenya, except he realized at some point that it had outlived its usefulness and at that point stopped doing it and tried to cover up instances where he had done it in the past as much as he could.  That's JMHO, of course.

That story is a lot more benign than the typical birther narrative, but it would still be interesting to know more about it, as it would be interesting to know more about many aspects of Obama's past, not the least of which is the ways in which his mother's and grandparents' interest in Marxism shaped Obama's view of the world.  I'm sure that some future Obama biographer will dig into that topic more deeply and I'm sure it will be an interesting read.

[RuralEngineer]

Then they should already be vying for that position. Far from requiring a conspiracy theory to be investigated, he has boasted about his acts of murdering US citizens, based on a bill of attainder. That is a direct violation of the Constitution and the Bill of Rights, and therefore required his immediate impeachment and removal of office.

Somehow I don't recall that happening. Am I getting senile?

Apples and oranges.  You're talking about violations of the Constitutions analogous to those that Congress does every day before breakfast now.  As far as provocations go, it's about like insulting someone's mother vs. stabbing them in the groin with a rusty knife.  They're just not on the same level and people aren't as willing to let one slide.  Even if the Dems attempted to let it slide, there would be armed insurrection and I don't think they're willing to let that happen.  They'll sacrifice B.O. before they see the country burn to the ground.

You have a much higher (or at least different) opinion of the willingness of the population to revolt. I think it would take much more than that for the sheeple to even think (if that's the right word) about doing anything like that.

I'm willing to admit personal bias because I know what my actions would be were it revealed that there was a conspiracy to install a foreign national in the White House and they refused to resign or Congress would not impeach/convict them.

[doodle]

Cruz in the media again. He comes across as a zealot. Apparently, it seems to him that when you disagree with someone the way to solve things is to play a game of chicken.

We're not going to be negotiating over the debt limit," Lew said. "Congress has already authorized funding, committed us to make expenditures. … The only question is, will we pay the bills that the United States has incurred?"

Meanwhile, many Republicans have said that they would not vote for a bill avoiding a shutdown without the (unlikely) concession of defunding Obamacare. As Sen. Ted Cruz (R-Tex.) recently put it, "If you have an impasse, one side or the other has to blink. How do we win this fight? Don't blink."

Memani downplays the White House and Republican rhetoric.

"If they don't compromise, then that clearly is bad for the economy," the fund manager said. "But it don't think that's really a base-case scenario, because we have seen this movie several times before."

[Mdraf]

Why does "compromise" always mean spending more, never spending less?

[doodle]

Why does "compromise" always mean spending more, never spending less?

Its not about spending more or less IMHO. Its about spending the right amount in accordance with the economic conditions at the time. If government removes deficit spending right now we go into great depression II and things get a lot worse for a lot of people. Ted Cruz doesn't seem to understand that...

[Mdraf]

Ok I'll re-phrase the question: how come the "right amount" is always more?

[doodle]

Ok I'll re-phrase the question: how come the "right amount" is always more?

Well if you subscribe to the modern economic idea that is popular on this forum that the government doesn't need to tax in order to spend, then government spending that doesn't cause inflation should simply be a way of keeping the economy running at full capacity. Granted, certain things like a massive military IMHO are a misdirection of resources that could be put into more socially productive and beneficial areas. So its not just about spending, its about spending intelligently.