Are we living inside a computer simulation?

[l82start]

just finished watching.... great movie if you like thinking about this kind of "everything is a computer simulation" stuff....  lots of parallels with the topics in this thread.. and a good murder mystery as well..

[lazyboy]

Thanks, Storm. Looking at the questions MT raises about simulation scenarios leads me to think about the question of who and what we really are. According to some teachings, if we were to directly experience our true nature we would experience ourselves as non physical beings, which many or most spiritual traditions teach is our ultimate nature. OK, given that bit, we find ourselves converging on the territory that theoretical physics has been exploring: that if you examine matter, what you find is that it's really...uh... mostly... space...which, is maybe, best expressed in Buddhist thinking as:  "Form is emptiness, emptiness is form" (from the Heart Sutra) The notion of emptiness is also is linked with that of impermanence, interdependence and interconnection. In other words, everything in this world is interconnected and in constant flux.  A deep appreciation of this idea of emptiness thus saves us from the suffering caused by our egos, our attachments, and our resistance to change and loss. In absolute terms, our subjective experience of time, distance and separation as a limiting condition is not real. (Uhuh, really? Then why is the traffic moving so slow?) I'll have to get back to you on that one. But seriously folks, this analysis is valuable and for an additional $2.95 I'll get you "tall" soy latte from Starbucks.
Now from this above perspective, the ultimate identity  and nature of the "programer" is... drum roll, please... you guessed it, non other than ourselves. Why would we do that to ourselves?  And how did we get in this mess, anyway ? As soon as I, yawn...  get the answer, I'll post it here first...  promise. Jeez, all this talk about emptiness has made me sleepy. I'm off to bed.

[doodle]

Thanks, Storm. Looking at the questions MT raises about simulation scenarios leads me to think about the question of who and what we really are. According to some teachings, if we were to directly experience our true nature we would experience ourselves as non physical beings, which many or most spiritual traditions teach is our ultimate nature. OK, given that bit, we find ourselves converging on the territory that theoretical physics has been exploring: that if you examine matter, what you find is that it's really...uh... mostly... space...which, is maybe, best expressed in Buddhist thinking as:  "Form is emptiness, emptiness is form" (from the Heart Sutra) The notion of emptiness is also is linked with that of impermanence, interdependence and interconnection. In other words, everything in this world is interconnected and in constant flux.  A deep appreciation of this idea of emptiness thus saves us from the suffering caused by our egos, our attachments, and our resistance to change and loss. In absolute terms, our subjective experience of time, distance and separation as a limiting condition is not real. (Uhuh, really? Then why is the traffic moving so slow?) I'll have to get back to you on that one. But seriously folks, this analysis is valuable and for an additional $2.95 I'll get you "tall" soy latte from Starbucks.
Now from this above perspective, the ultimate identity  and nature of the "programer" is... drum roll, please... you guessed it, non other than ourselves. Why would we do that to ourselves?  And how did we get in this mess, anyway ? As soon as I, yawn...  get the answer, I'll post it here first...  promise. Jeez, all this talk about emptiness has made me sleepy. I'm off to bed.

Just the brief amount of reading and lecture watching on youtube that I have done on quantum physics has radically changed some assumptions that I used to have regarding the nature of our existence. The fact that the atoms that constitute us are 99.99999999% empty space and that the particles that comprise those atoms behave in ways that seem to violate the laws of physics really forced my mind into a state of cognitive dissonance by implying that the world that I perceive is in someways an illusion. Of course, once these doubts about "who and what" you really are begin to creep into your mind, then other cultural structures and worldviews that you have erected begin to crack and crumble. I can see how pursuing this path too far or with the wrong goals and intentions could result in an emotional breakdown or seperation from the everyday world. On the other hand, it could also lead to a sense of freedom and unencumbered enlightenment.

With regards to the simulation discussion, I find the simulations that we are able to conduct ourselves (as opposed to the one that we might all be involved in) interesting as well. Lucid dreaming is one such example of a simulative brain experience under conscious control. I don't doubt that in the near future we will be taking periodic brain vacations where our bodies don't move, yet our minds are transported to distant places.

All of this reminds me of this quote by Chuang Tzu:

Once upon a time, I, Chuang Tzu, dreamt I was a butterfly, fluttering hither and thither, to all intents and purposes a butterfly. I was conscious only of my happiness as a butterfly, unaware that I was Chou. Soon I awaked, and there I was, veritably myself again. Now I do not know whether I was then a man dreaming I was a butterfly, or whether I am now a butterfly, dreaming I am a man.

[MachineGhost]

If you prefer, you can call the supreme psychic gestalt God, but you should not attempt to objectify him. What you call God is the sum of all consciousness, and yet the whole is more than the sum of Its parts.

[It] is not one individual, but an energy gestalt. [It] is a psychic pyramid of interrelated, ever expanding consciousness, that creates simultaneous and instantaneously, universes and individuals that are given duration, psychic comprehension, intelligence and eternal validity. Its energy is so unbelievable that it does indeed form all universes; and because its energy is within and behind all universes, fields and systems, it is indeed aware of each sparrow that falls, for it is each sparrow that falls.

Dimly remembered through what you would call history, there was a state of agony in which the powers of creativity and existence were known, but the ways to produce them were not known. All That Is existed in a state of being, but without the means to find expression for Its being. All That Is had to learn this lesson, and could not be taught. From this agony, creativity was originally drawn, and its reflection is still seen. All That Is retains the memory of that state, and it serves as a constant impetus toward renewed creativity. Desire, wish and expectation, therefore, rule all actions and are the basis for all realities. Within the dreams of All That Is, potential beings had Consciousness before any beginning as you know it.

All That Is saw an infinity of probable, conscious individuals. These Probable individual selves found themselves alive within a God's dream and they clamored to be released into actuality. All That Is yearned to release them and sought within itself for the means to do so. Finally, with love and longing It let go of that portion of itself, and they were free. The psychic energy exploded in a flash of creation.

All That Is loves all that It has created down to the least, for It realizes the dearness and uniqueness of each consciousness which has been wrest from such a state of agony. It is triumphant and joyful at each development taken by each consciousness, and It revels and takes joy in the slightest creative act of each of Its issues.

All individuals remember their source, and now dream of All That Is as It once dreamed of them. And they yearn toward that immense source...and yearn to give it actuality through their own creations.

[lazyboy]

If you prefer, you can call the supreme psychic gestalt God, but you should not attempt to objectify him. What you call God is the sum of all consciousness, and yet the whole is more than the sum of Its parts.

[It] is not one individual, but an energy gestalt. [It] is a psychic pyramid of interrelated, ever expanding consciousness, that creates simultaneous and instantaneously, universes and individuals that are given duration, psychic comprehension, intelligence and eternal validity. Its energy is so unbelievable that it does indeed form all universes; and because its energy is within and behind all universes, fields and systems, it is indeed aware of each sparrow that falls, for it is each sparrow that falls.

Dimly remembered through what you would call history, there was a state of agony in which the powers of creativity and existence were known, but the ways to produce them were not known. All That Is existed in a state of being, but without the means to find expression for Its being. All That Is had to learn this lesson, and could not be taught. From this agony, creativity was originally drawn, and its reflection is still seen. All That Is retains the memory of that state, and it serves as a constant impetus toward renewed creativity. Desire, wish and expectation, therefore, rule all actions and are the basis for all realities. Within the dreams of All That Is, potential beings had Consciousness before any beginning as you know it.

All That Is saw an infinity of probable, conscious individuals. These Probable individual selves found themselves alive within a God's dream and they clamored to be released into actuality. All That Is yearned to release them and sought within itself for the means to do so. Finally, with love and longing It let go of that portion of itself, and they were free. The psychic energy exploded in a flash of creation.

All That Is loves all that It has created down to the least, for It realizes the dearness and uniqueness of each consciousness which has been wrest from such a state of agony. It is triumphant and joyful at each development taken by each consciousness, and It revels and takes joy in the slightest creative act of each of Its issues.

All individuals remember their source, and now dream of All That Is as It once dreamed of them. And they yearn toward that immense source...and yearn to give it actuality through their own creations.

Thanks, MG. What an inspiring quote. Where did you pull it from?

A friend turned me on to this one. http://www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/2 ... rlife.html

The book is: Proof of Heaven By Eben Alexander

It's the account of a neurosurgeon whose cortex was shut down and yet had an extraordinary experience that would be very difficult to explain scientifically.

All the chief arguments against near-death experiences suggest that these experiences are the results of minimal, transient, or partial malfunctioning of the cortex. My near-death experience, however, took place not while my cortex was malfunctioning, but while it was simply off. This is clear from the severity and duration of my meningitis, and from the global cortical involvement documented by CT scans and neurological examinations. According to current medical understanding of the brain and mind, there is absolutely no way that I could have experienced even a dim and limited consciousness during my time in the coma, much less the hyper-vivid and completely coherent odyssey I underwent.

[clacy]

If you prefer, you can call the supreme psychic gestalt God, but you should not attempt to objectify him. What you call God is the sum of all consciousness, and yet the whole is more than the sum of Its parts.

[It] is not one individual, but an energy gestalt. [It] is a psychic pyramid of interrelated, ever expanding consciousness, that creates simultaneous and instantaneously, universes and individuals that are given duration, psychic comprehension, intelligence and eternal validity. Its energy is so unbelievable that it does indeed form all universes; and because its energy is within and behind all universes, fields and systems, it is indeed aware of each sparrow that falls, for it is each sparrow that falls.

Dimly remembered through what you would call history, there was a state of agony in which the powers of creativity and existence were known, but the ways to produce them were not known. All That Is existed in a state of being, but without the means to find expression for Its being. All That Is had to learn this lesson, and could not be taught. From this agony, creativity was originally drawn, and its reflection is still seen. All That Is retains the memory of that state, and it serves as a constant impetus toward renewed creativity. Desire, wish and expectation, therefore, rule all actions and are the basis for all realities. Within the dreams of All That Is, potential beings had Consciousness before any beginning as you know it.

All That Is saw an infinity of probable, conscious individuals. These Probable individual selves found themselves alive within a God's dream and they clamored to be released into actuality. All That Is yearned to release them and sought within itself for the means to do so. Finally, with love and longing It let go of that portion of itself, and they were free. The psychic energy exploded in a flash of creation.

All That Is loves all that It has created down to the least, for It realizes the dearness and uniqueness of each consciousness which has been wrest from such a state of agony. It is triumphant and joyful at each development taken by each consciousness, and It revels and takes joy in the slightest creative act of each of Its issues.

All individuals remember their source, and now dream of All That Is as It once dreamed of them. And they yearn toward that immense source...and yearn to give it actuality through their own creations.

Thanks, MG. What an inspiring quote. Where did you pull it from?

A friend turned me on to this one. http://www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/2 ... rlife.html

The book is: Proof of Heaven By Eben Alexander

It's the account of a neurosurgeon whose cortex was shut down and yet had an extraordinary experience that would be very difficult to explain scientifically.

All the chief arguments against near-death experiences suggest that these experiences are the results of minimal, transient, or partial malfunctioning of the cortex. My near-death experience, however, took place not while my cortex was malfunctioning, but while it was simply off. This is clear from the severity and duration of my meningitis, and from the global cortical involvement documented by CT scans and neurological examinations. According to current medical understanding of the brain and mind, there is absolutely no way that I could have experienced even a dim and limited consciousness during my time in the coma, much less the hyper-vivid and completely coherent odyssey I underwent.

I just finished that book a few weeks ago.  Definitely worth reading, IMO.  Lately I've been going to this site to read through the thousands of NDE's that people have shared...

http://www.nderf.org/NDERF/NDE_Archives/NDERF_NDEs.htm

[notsheigetz]

I'm guessing that the scientists associated with this theory are using the word "simulation" in place of "intelligent design" to avoid the inevitable mocking by the rest of the scientific community due to its association with the religious creationists who first came up with the term (and sometimes the mocking is well deserved).

But the bottom line is that if there is a "simulation" then there must, by definition, be an intelligent designer and he (she, it, whatever) truly has left us evidence of his existence.

From an earlier work compiled over the centuries on the subject of intelligent design comes this conclusion:

"Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable his judgments, and his paths beyond tracing out!"

Great post, Lazyboy, that must have been an intense 3 days of meditation!

MT, regarding the general question: why would the creator of a simulation allow us to figure out that we are in a simulation?  I think I can answer that one.  Whoever the creator of the simulation is, they obviously gave every animal and human within the simulation some semblance of sentience and free will.  Giving someone free will inherently allows them to think anything they want to think.  Don't you think it would be a huge tip off that we were in a simulation if we just randomly weren't allowed to think certain thoughts?

Also, I don't think eclipses have much to do with simulation, other than proving that mathematics is the language of nature.  The very fact that mathematics can describe almost any phenomenon in physics or nature does lead me to believe in the simulation theory.

A great movie that touches on the edge of this is Pi, by Darren Aranofsky.