Given "spending is irrelevant"/fiat money, why not give every poor person 30K?

[Gumby]

Just off the bat, that is totally wrong headed thinking. Getting those goods and services is what makes us human. If that is the case why even have legs, arms a mouth etc. Why don't we just move around in little scooters instead of walk. We dont need mouths to chew...we can have a machine do that for us and inject the nutritition directly into us. Heck we can just hook up catheters and then we dont even have to get off the couch to go to the bathroom anymore. Oh, won't our living standard be so high then!!

Again, Doodle, nobody is forcing you to be a part of society. If you think "progress" is actually a step backwards, you can still choose to drop out of society and live off the grid. The choice is yours. And that very choice will influence the supply/demand found in society.

[Pointedstick]

Gumby.

If you have to work harder to obtain the goods/services you want, your standard of living is declining. If you have to work less to obtain the goods/services you want, your standard of living is improving.

Just off the bat, that is totally wrong headed thinking. Getting those goods and services is what makes us human. If that is the case why even have legs, arms a mouth etc. Why don't we just move around in little scooters instead of walk. We dont need mouths to chew...we can have a machine do that for us and inject the nutritition directly into us. Heck we can just hook up catheters and then we dont even have to get off the couch to go to the bathroom anymore. Oh, won't our living standard be so high then!!

You can start right now, by throwing away the marvelous computer you're using to communicate with us!  The fact that you haven't indicates that you understand that some amount of progress, invention, and technological change is desirable. Where do you draw the line? Why are computers and the internet good, but motor vehicles bad?

[doodle]

Gumby,

So? Quit complaining, get off your ass, and start providing society with a better mode of transportation!

Why? Nature has already created them...they are called legs. They also have the added benefit of keeping us healthy when they are used.

Of course, certain modern modes of transportation are nice when travelling long distances, but we shouldnt design our everyday lives to rely on these for everything.

PS,

Let's not take for granted what unbelievable societies we all have the privilege of living in. Even if social and emotional health may be harder to achieve for those of us who move around a lot, work boring jobs, and live far from family, these are all fixable problems on a micro level. If you live in that village, there is virtually no way for you as an individual to solve those problems for yourself.

I agree, I am incredibly grateful for some of the ways that society has progressed and in other ways I think we are totally off the tracks. I think people need to take more time to think about things. Most people get so caught up in "life" and the way that things are done that they never take the time to ask the question "why". Sometimes the routine takes on a life of its own and at that point you need to step back and reevaluate. This is the process that is not happening as a society. We are barreling forward as fast as we can but very few people are stepping back to say....."So, where are we headed?"

Gumby talks a lot about corn fed meat vs. grass fed meat. Here is a perfect example of where I think there would be a great chance to step back and ask "Why are we feeding this animal a food that it was never meant to digest and then pumping it full of antibiotics to kill the E-Coli that infects its gut as a result?"

[doodle]

PS,

Where do you draw the line? Why are computers and the internet good, but motor vehicles bad?

There is a line where the machine stops serving you and you start serving the machine. This is a somewhat arbitrary line, but when people have to spend upwards of 25% of their earnings on transportation or need to jump into 2 ton 350 HP car to run to the store for a loaf of bread I think that a lightbulb should go off and a reasonable person would say "Hey, this is a bit ridiculous"

[Gumby]

So? Quit complaining, get off your ass, and start providing society with a better mode of transportation!

Why? Nature has already created them...they are called legs. They also have the added benefit of keeping us healthy when they are used.

Clearly you don't understand supply and demand. There is a demand for cars because most people get tired of walking and people want to travel faster. Is it "healthier" for people to drive? No, probably not.

Gumby talks about corn fed meat vs. grass fed meat. Here is a perfect example of where I think there would be a great chance to step back and ask "Why are we feeding this animal a food that it was never meant to digest and then pumping it full of antibiotics to kill the E-Coli that infects its gut as a result?"

I never said progress was good for our health or well being. I'm not sure I'd want to live in that futuristic city either. But, it all depends on what society demands. If society demands that we colonize the moon, then that's something our society may try to achieve. Is it a good idea to colonize the moon? Probably not. Right now we don't "need" to colonize the moon. But perhaps someday it will be a good idea. Who knows?

Keep in mind that 150 years ago, most people felt that working for a wage (i.e. having a boss and a salary) was a form of slavery.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wage_slavery

But, today it's just "normal" to go to work and collect a salary. Take someone who was born in the Garden of Eden and make them work for a salary and they would probably feel enslaved. Take someone who grows up watching their parents go to work each day and they would probably want to become an entrepreneur. Progress happens slowly, but it's not always good for people's health, well being or spirit. Luckily we have the ability to choose how we live. And that's what powers the free market (i.e. supply/demand).

[Pointedstick]

PS,

Where do you draw the line? Why are computers and the internet good, but motor vehicles bad?

There is a line where the machine stops serving you and you start serving the machine. This is a somewhat arbitrary line, but when people have to spend upwards of 25% of their earnings on transportation or need to jump into 2 ton 350 HP car to run to the store for a loaf of bread I think that a lightbulb should go off and a reasonable person would say "Hey, this is a bit ridiculous"

If you spend 25% of your earnings on cars, I say you're insane. You can enjoy the convenience of a personally-owned motor vehicle for a tiny fraction of that price and use it judiciously (i.e. not for trips under a mile or three). It's not the car's fault if people don't do that, and it remains fantastically useful for the rapid, door-to-door transportation of goods and people over long distances. Mr. Money Mustache still owns cars!

Any machine can transform into something that you serve if you're not careful. People get addicted to computer games and the internet. That doesn't make computers bad. I think what you're trying to say here is that a lot of us have our priorities a bit muddled, and on that I would largely agree with you. But I think you ened to be careful to emphasize that, rather than bashing labor-saving objects and drawing broad generalizations about people. Many think and behave in the manner you describe, but many do not.

[melveyr]

I feel like doodle is saying that society will eventually have a breakdown in demand because we would all be satiated. I wouldn't bet on mankind being satiated. It's great for doodle if he feels satiated, but I wouldn't count on society as a whole ever reaching that point.

[doodle]

Gumby,

I agree...people should have the right to choose. All that I am saying is that we emphasize the need to ask the question "WHY?" more in our society.

Our society should teach children to constantly question things and to ask "Why" are we doing this? What are the benefits...what are the drawbacks? What are we gaining...what are we losing? Then carefully weigh those decisions.

The number of people thinking like this today is incredibly low. They are slaves to advertising and the media. Our culture is designed to brainwash people and turn them into mindless consumers. The powers that be dont want people asking the question "Why?"

That is a big, big problem. That is all that I am saying.

[doodle]

My latest "Why" question for example concerns grass.

"Why" do we spend so much time, effort, and money to groom and condition this stupid plant? Yes, grass is nice to walk or play on....but why would I want a two acre expanse of yard covered with the stuff? Why do we plant this stuff all over highway medians throughout the country and then send crews out to constantly trim it back? Seems pretty insane to me....

If we do it for aesthetic reasons my argument would be that aesthetics are almost entirely conditioned. Common sense should reign over absurd culturally inculcated and socially conditioned aesthetics.

[doodle]

PS,

Where do you draw the line? Why are computers and the internet good, but motor vehicles bad?

There is a line where the machine stops serving you and you start serving the machine. This is a somewhat arbitrary line, but when people have to spend upwards of 25% of their earnings on transportation or need to jump into 2 ton 350 HP car to run to the store for a loaf of bread I think that a lightbulb should go off and a reasonable person would say "Hey, this is a bit ridiculous"

If you spend 25% of your earnings on cars, I say you're insane.

The average American spends about 17 to 18 percent of their earnings on transportation (that was between 2000 and 2008 before big spikes in gas prices) and many add another 4 full weeks of worktime (or more) a year commuting to their jobs. That is pretty insane in my book...

[Gumby]

Doodle. The answer to all your questions is...

[align=center]DEMAND![/align]

People demand all the "Why?" things you question. People demand cars. People demand corn dogs. People demand washing machines.

Robert Moses created the first "Parkway" in the United States so that people could feel like they were driving through a beautiful park. He was also the park's commissioner of NY State so he was legally able to appropriate land by turning any plot of land into a "park". So he did just that and put a highway down the middle (and he called it a "parkway"). And people thought it was beautiful. So, now, everyone demands green lawns on the side of their highways. Whether you like it or not, people demand it!

[Pointedstick]

The average American spends about 17 to 18 percent of their earnings on transportation (that was between 2000 and 2008 before big spikes in gas prices) and many add another 4 full weeks of worktime (or more) a year commuting to their jobs. That is pretty insane in my book...

I agree, but it's not the car's fault. Someone who spends 18% of their pay on cars and sits in traffic for hours commuting has made choices requiring those expenditures and sacrifices. Many make other choices. It's up to the individual. I agree with you that we need to question how we do things, and I think we're all doing exactly that. But we can't change others, only ourselves. You're clearly agitated by the way society is oriented at the present time; I heartily recommend going back to your copy of How I found Freedom in an Unfree World and re-reading the sections about trying to change the rest of the world.

[doodle]

PS and Gumby,

What if DEMAND is preordained because of the way that society has been set up through the result of what seemed liked rational individual decisions at the time? This is classic tragedy of the commons. If housing and schools are built (or were built by previous generations) to be 50 miles away from work centers...and the only way to get there is using a highway then is there REALLY a choice not to buy a car? No, there isn't. Choice in that scenario is a fairytale illusion. So in order to survive in my poorly designed environment my choice is really between buying a car (and deeping the roots of the present system) or starving to death.

In addition to these material realties that are forcing me to demand certain things (kind of like the mafia sells people "protection" because there is a "demand" for it).....I am also fed a steady diet of advertising no matter which way I turn my head that tells me how Im supposed to live my life.

Most humans dont have the capacity or willingness to put in the effort to fight this or think about it, so they just jump in a go along for the ride. But is completely mistaken to qualify this as some sort of process of carefully considered "Choice"

[Gumby]

You're clearly agitated by the way society is oriented at the present time; I heartily recommend going back to your copy of How I found Freedom in an Unfree World and re-reading the sections about trying to change the rest of the world.

Good advice.

Doodle, this is supposed to be a thread about the role of fiat government spending (you've sort of hijacked another thread to deal with an inner crisis on the direction of society)! Keep in mind that a fiat government isn't supposed to spend money willy nilly. The fiat government is really supposed to print money to build/maintain infrastructure, roads, bridges, schools, etc — and allow society to create it's own private credit in order to fund its own endeavors based on supply/demand (though it isn't perfect and doesn't always work out that way). But, the point is that the free market mostly gets to decide what direction society moves. The free market doesn't always make the right choices, but it probably does a better job than you give it credit for.

If you don't believe that, you can always move to another country. You can make that choice if you like.

Anyway, I've got work to do. Gotta go!

[doodle]

Yes, I'm good at hijacking threads. 

My primary point over the last few posts is that "choice" and "demand" are manufactured. Your choices and demands are determined by the environment that you live in. Our environment is manufactured to create certain demands that wouldnt exist if our environment was designed somewhat differently. This design process was not an intelligent, considered process, but rather the result of individual decisions that in many cases has resulted in "tragedy of the commons" type outcomes.

That is my point, nothing more.

Back to the Fiat discussion.

[Gumby]

My primary point over the last few posts is that "choice" and "demand" are manufactured. Your choices and demands are determined by the environment that you live in. Our environment is manufactured to create certain demands that wouldnt exist if our environment was designed somewhat differently. This design process was not an intelligent, considered process, but rather the result of individual decisions that in many cases has resulted in "tragedy of the commons" type outcomes.

That is my point, nothing more.

Back to the Fiat discussion.

I agree with you. That's the world we live in!

[Pointedstick]

Yes, I'm good at hijacking threads. 

My primary point over the last few posts is that "choice" and "demand" are manufactured. Your choices and demands are determined by the environment that you live in. Our environment is manufactured to create certain demands that wouldnt exist if our environment was designed somewhat differently.

But this is and has always been true throughout all of human history! Right now I don't have the choice of commuting to my job on Mars via personal spacecraft because there are no jobs on Mars or personal spacecraft. So what? We're always constrained by the material world around us and the scope of the culture we're born into. Always have been, always will be. I don't see how this observation is that significant or meaningful. It reminds me of my frustrating days in college liberal arts classes when people would respond with "Well, it's all just a social construction!" Sure, okay. And…?

[doodle]

But this is and has always been true throughout all of human history! Right now I don't have the choice of commuting to my job on Mars via personal spacecraft because there are no jobs on Mars or personal spacecraft. So what? We're always constrained by the material world around us and the scope of the culture we're born into. Always have been, always will be. I don't see how this observation is that significant or meaningful. It reminds me of my frustrating days in college liberal arts classes when people would respond with "Well, it's all just a social construction!" Sure, okay. And…?

And.....there is room for improvement by getting more people to ask the question "why"?

If most Americans spend nearly 20% of their income on transporation and about 4 weeks of time commuting to and from work, there is a chance to ask "why?" Most people though have never been trained to think in this way. They fall into a habit or routine that they think is a pain (they bitch about gas prices or traffic or whatever) but they never step back to think about things because the solutions to these problems require long term thinking and planning. Nevertheless, just as we can manufacture (or fall into) pain in the ass nonsensical situations, we can also engineer intelligent solutions.

Really the invisible hand is a great tool in some respects to organize a lot of society's activity, but being led around by a blind hand with no brain doesn't always lead to the most fantastic outcomes in all cases. 

[MachineGhost]

There is a line where the machine stops serving you and you start serving the machine. This is a somewhat arbitrary line, but when people have to spend upwards of 25% of their earnings on transportation or need to jump into 2 ton 350 HP car to run to the store for a loaf of bread I think that a lightbulb should go off and a reasonable person would say "Hey, this is a bit ridiculous"

It won't be for much longer.  Amazon is getting into the grocery delivery business.  They're already trialing it in San Diego.  Soon thereafter, your fridge will communicate with Amazon and keep it fully stocked.

We are blasting full speed ahead into the Imagination Era where your every biological and psychological whim or fantasy will be entertained and provided as a service by others.  There are no limits to growth.

[doodle]

We are blasting full speed ahead into the Imagination Era where your every biological and psychological whim or fantasy will be entertained and provided as a service by others.  There are no limits to growth.

There are no limits if you redefine what it means to be human. All of this technology is fine and dandy but what is the goal that it is aiming at? Where are we going with all of this and what is the point? Why even leave your bed anymore....just hook up a catheter and bedpan and you can lie there all day. Just because we can design a society someday that eliminates the need for humans to have to even lift a finger, doesn't mean that this is the type of habitat which is best suited for our species. This kind of reminds me of the parable of the monkey and the fish...where the monkey says to the fish "kindly let me help you out of the water and up the tree so that you don't drown" maybe the good intentions of science and technology are actually creating and fostering developments that have unintended negative consequences for human health and happiness. If a child is given the option to choose between eating cake and watching cartoons all day or eating meat and vegetables and going to school he will probably choose the former. While it may apparently make his life seem better in the short run, it will ultimately make him a a sickly and stupid human.

[doodle]

In the west there is an obsession with looking outward for life's meaning and satisfaction. We have succeeded because of this in improving our external lives tremendously to the point where hunger and many diseases are really a non issue. This has certainly been beneficial, but while we have been so focused and continue to be so focused on our physical world and body (soma) we have neglected as a society to direct much attention inward towards our psyche. Culturally we have not placed much importance on this, which is why despite having a great deal of material abundance, we have more affective and psychological disorders than countries who are many times poorer than ourselves. My plea with people is to start thinking and questioning who they really are. Are they really what Abercrombie and Fitch or Ford Motor Co. tells them they are? Do the things that people want to sell them really improve their health and happiness, or are they a temporary distraction that they buy attempting to escape a pervasive feeling of emptiness and separation?

[Gumby]

In the west there is...

So? Move to the East. You don't have to live here. I think you need to realize that you're not going to change society by making people ask "Why?"

[doodle]

In the west there is...

So? Move to the East. You don't have to live here. I think you need to realize that you're not going to change society by making people ask "Why?"

The East today is quickly becoming the West.

I think you need to realize that you're not going to change society by making people ask "Why?"

I am a mindless drone...I don't ask questions.....I just consume.  As Paul Ryan's favorite band  Rage Against the Machine says....."and now you do what they told ya."

I know that in order to have a discussion you must have two different viewpoints or else you just have an echo chamber, but what exactly are you arguing against? The need to emphasize the question "Why"? Are you saying that we shouldn't teach our children to ask that question? That our society should hammer down people who question things? Really, what are you getting at? I think we have a problem in our present society of too many people blindly accepting the reality that advertising companies and the modern media lay out for them that has one primary goal in mind.....PROFIT and CONTROL. I'm simply saying that more people need to question this so called "reality". You seem to be advocating that everyone should go home and turn on Dancing with the Stars and above all...DON'T THINK AND DON'T ASK ANY QUESTIONS!! This seems pretty ironic to me given that it was your pushing on me that got me to truly start thinking about how the monetary system functioned that in turn led to the feeling of peace and freedom that I now feel regarding that aspect of my life. If I still accepted the message that the media plays every day I would probably be a nervous and confused wreck to this day!

[MediumTex]

doodle,

You are asking and pondering a lot of really good questions.

The thing is, though, we all have to live in the world that we have.  It's not perfect, and it never has been and never will be.

Don't squander the gift of life and time lamenting the fact that the world is not the way it would be if you had made it. 

I appreciate everything you are saying, but you can't make everyone be like you or see the world through your eyes.

[doodle]

doodle,

You are asking and pondering a lot of really good questions.

The thing is, though, we all have to live in the world that we have.  It's not perfect, and it never has been and never will be.

Don't squander the gift of life and time lamenting the fact that the world is not the way it would be if you had made it. 

I appreciate everything you are saying, but you can't make everyone be like you or see the world through your eyes.

MT,

"Perfect" sounds like hell. It reminds me of that movie "Pleasantville"

Don't squander the gift of life and time lamenting the fact that the world is not the way it would be if you had made it.

"Lamentation" seems so pathetically passive. I try to stay proactive in talking with people. Maybe it alienates me, but this massive consumer monoculture we live in desperately needs some dissenting voices!!! :-)

My goal is not to tell people necessarily "what to do", but rather to get them to question the so called "reality" that the system indoctrinates them with. In that respect, my pleas are no different than the MMT crowd here that goes at it with people who have a more "traditional" view of how the monetary system works.