Empire State Shooting

[Pointedstick]

Thanks for the link, WiseOne. That explanation does make some sense. However, I'm disappointed by the extremely shoddy journalism:

The .45-caliber pistol Johnson used carries eight bullets. Five of those were used to kill the victim, two were left in the chamber, and one was found unfired on the ground after the shootout.

It helps to understand, oh, I dunno, more than nothing about the subject you're writing about.

[MachineGhost]

I have seen a lot of police around especially in the subway, but the push for more police started with Giuliani, is not something most people object to given the perceived safety benefit, and isn't one of our biggest problems.  I'd say the unsustainable pensions promised by all city agencies and the bloated bureaucracy are far worse.  An MTA employee gets to retire around age 45 on nearly full pay, if they're smart enough to work a lot of overtime in their last year.

45?  Jeeze!  That makes Greece look like a walk in the park.

Again, wheres the uproar over all these untrained pigs toting semi-autos and assault rifles?  Or are NYC denizens too pacified about all the security theatre and willing to accept collateral damage?

This whole debacle reeks of an exploitation film from the 70's.

[Pointedstick]

Again, wheres the uproar over all these untrained pigs toting semi-autos and assault rifles?  Or are NYC denizens too pacified about all the security theatre and willing to accept collateral damage?

I think they are. My parents are both gun controlling progressive NYC liberals and they're comforted by the sight of police officers carrying AR-15s on the subway. They're fine with the TSA, too. It's just bizarre to me. I think some New Yawkers were so shocked by 9/11 that they never really recovered enough to use their brains to evaluate the costs (high) and benefits (low to non-existent) of the security theater their rulers gleefully threw up around them. Instead, anybody who claims to be trying to protect their beloved city just automatically gets a free pass.

[smurff]

Police officers fired 16 shots. Three hit the perp, three hit bystanders, and the remaining six bystanders were hit by shrapnel from stray bullets bouncing around.

I had to work in the area on saturday afternoon. I walked down Fifth Ave, there was a newsman and camera crew in front of the Empire State bldg, people hawking tours, and tourists lined up to tour the observatory. Otherwise nothing unusual, just clean up the blood and guts and back to business as usual. Even W33rd St where the shooting actually occurred there was no change--except for flowers the OV's friends had left as a memorial to him.

[Reub]

"Untrained pigs"? Really???

[Pointedstick]

Libertarian-minded folk generally hold low opinions of the police.

[Reub]

Why?

[MediumTex]

One's own personal experience wth the police can also contribute to a low opinion of the police in general.

If I had been walking down the street and a pack of Barney Fifes shot me because I was within a few hundred feet of a suspect that they were in the process of riddling with bullets, I might have some unkind things to say about the whole police department, especially if I thought I had been shot because of a lack of police firearms training.

[Storm]

I have a low opinion of the police from personal experience.  When I was a young kid in my 20s I used to get routinely pulled over and harassed because I had long hair, or was driving home from a club at 2:30 am (after having 0 drinks).  Cops profile people all the time.  Driving an older car through the wrong neighborhood at the wrong time?  You might just get pulled over and told you are a worthless young punk even though you did nothing wrong.  Car searched.  Personal belongings messed up.

I also once was at a private party at my friends house and the cops came over and told us to turn the music down.  We turned the music off, then they told us that we had to break the party up.  We told them we were well within our rights to be on private property at any time of the day or night, but it turns out there must have been a police sergeant or something that lived on the block and dammit, that party was going to end.  It turned into a shouting match at 1:00 am between the homeowner and the police that ended when the police officer said "either everyone leaves or we arrest all of you".

Now that I'm 38, drive a fairly new sedan, and have short hair, I get 0 harassment from the police.  Again, they're just profiling.  Whether they do it by race or not, what does it matter?  20 year old kid driving a 10 year old Honda civic with tinted windows after midnight?  Must be up to no good - pull him over and search, or in NYC, stop and frisk.  40 year old clean cut guy in a 2 year old sedan?  No problem.

[CraigR]Comment edited. Please be civil.

[Reub]

Libertarian-minded folk generally hold low opinions of the police.

really? that surprises me, I (as a libertarian minded person) have always held the difficult job police do in fairly high regard, most of the anti cop stuff i have heard spouted usually comes from the anarchists and the far left..

i would think the libertarian minded folks would tend to have the perspective that the police are for the most part are just doing there job, that bad cops are bad as individuals not bad as a group. and that it is bad laws that are the more fundamental problem..

Did Harry Browne have a low opinion of the police?

[MediumTex]

Did Harry Browne have a low opinion of the police?

Probably just a skeptical one.

I think that it's worth mentioning that there is a HUGE difference in the degree of professionalism among different police departments and law enforcement agencies.

In the Dallas area where I live there are some suburbs with reasonably professional police departments, while the Dallas Police Department is sort of a joke, except it's not funny.

[MediumTex]

I have a low opinion of the police from personal experience.  When I was a young kid in my 20s I used to get routinely pulled over and harassed because I had long hair, or was driving home from a club at 2:30 am (after having 0 drinks).  Cops profile people all the time.  Driving an older car through the wrong neighborhood at the wrong time?  You might just get pulled over and told you are a worthless young punk even though you did nothing wrong.  Car searched.  Personal belongings messed up.

I had a very similar set of experiences as a teenager.  Long hair on a man attracts cops like a magnet.  I suspect that black skin has a similar effect.

Now that I wear my hair short and look like a normal white adult, I feel like I'm invisible to the police, which is very nice compared to the experiences I used to have.

[Tortoise]

Here's a relevant scene from Pulp Fiction to lighten the mood:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fHG4fPkGpDM

[MediumTex]

Here's a relevant scene from Pulp Fiction to lighten the mood:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fHG4fPkGpDM

If I was a cop, I would say that is a great argument for NOT carrying a revolver with its measly 6 rounds.

[dualstow]

In the Dallas area where I live there are some suburbs with reasonably professional police departments, while the Dallas Police Department is sort of a joke, except it's not funny.

I cannot think of the Dallas police without Stephen King's 11/22/63 coming to mind. He was pretty harsh.

[WiseOne]

NYC in the 1970's and 80's was a downright scary place.  Now you can take the subway home at 2 AM and feel perfectly safe.  Whatever the actual reasons for the change were, the perception is that the stepped-up police presence had a lot to do with it.  I'm not crazy about police officers toting submachine guns or (worse) wielding them ineptly, but if the NYPD suddenly disappeared I'd sell my apartment and move out FAST.

Also it's worth noting what the NYPD did during 9/11.  There were 23 casualties among them.  Yet another reason why they are generally respected here, not reviled.  Although,  young black men in the South Bronx would probably have a different opinion.

[MachineGhost]

Why?

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[craigr]

Please be civil.

[craigr]

A famous gun instructor is fond of saying: "Every bullet has a lawyer attached to it."

Meaning if you open fire in public you have a good chance of injuring someone not involved and getting sued (even the person you shoot legitimately will probably sue you if they live, or their family will if they die).

I've never been in a firefight, but having interned at a police department we had to study these things to come up with department policies to deal with these situations. With adrenaline, etc. even well trained people will miss the target at close range. Having bullets go by your head has a way of doing that along with the adrenaline dump only giving you gross motor skills to use. Hitting a moving target in a confusing situation is hard. Hitting that target when it is shooting back at you is just that much harder.

I did not follow this story, but the idea that people got hit by stray bullets on a busy New York street is not surprising. Even if they hit the perp, the bullets could still cause injury just passing through the body and striking others.

This is not a defense of the policies of NYC and Bloomberg who is a petty control freak. Just that these situations are not so cut and dry and we weren't the ones dodging the bullets.

[Storm]

Please be civil.

The message was not intended to be uncivil... It was a reference to an NWA song from 1988 that talks about the corruption and inequal treatment citizens received at the hands of the LAPD that led up to the riots.  The song was prophetic.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuck_tha_Police

I'm sure there are plenty of decent, hardworking, and ethical officers, however, when you give someone the power to uphold the law and the means to easily take a fellow human beings life, they should be held to a higher standard.  With great power comes great responsibility.

I also highly recommend the excellent film Training Day.  This movie captures the corruption of the LAPD in a way that I have never seen before.

[MediumTex]

I also highly recommend the excellent film Training Day.  This movie captures the corruption of the LAPD in a way that I have never seen before.

Great movie.

Another good one is Safe House, which is basically a remake of Training Day, except Denzel Washington's role is more of a mixed bad guy/good guy, and it's the CIA instead of the L.A.P.D. that is having its curruption exposed.

[Reub]

"Seventy-Two Law Enforcement Officers Killed on 9/11 to be Remembered on 10th Anniversary of the Terrorist Attacks"

http://www.nleomf.org/newsroom/news-rel ... ement.html

Is that a high enough standard for you?

[MediumTex]

Gents,

We're not getting anywhere with this good cops/bad cops discussion.

I appreciate the good job that most cops do most of the time.

Let's move on to something else.