Without 2A, What Good Are the Other Amendments?

[Kbg]

Keeping the US military apolitical and the stuff about civility and compromise I mentioned as well.

Keep the folks with rocks, swords, harquebuses, cannons, guns, lasers (military) out of it. Once they get in it, they always win.

[Libertarian666]

I'm not against guns, I have many myself. I do think however their ownership should entail more comprehensive training requirements especially as their ability to kill increases...in same way that driving a semi truck full of hazardous materials requires special trajning and I believe their should be restrictions placed on past violent offenders and people with mental health disorders. I don't think it's a good idea that someone who relies on medication not to hear voices in their head or who has extreme anger management issues be able to purchase a gatling gun with unlimited ammo.

Looking at it from the perspective of fundamental rights, would you accept these conditions for any other Bill of Rights amendments? Should people have to apply for a license from the government in order to publish something, in order to make sure they aren't crazy?

Good luck getting a sensible answer to that question.

[doodle]

I'm not against guns, I have many myself. I do think however their ownership should entail more comprehensive training requirements especially as their ability to kill increases...in same way that driving a semi truck full of hazardous materials requires special trajning and I believe their should be restrictions placed on past violent offenders and people with mental health disorders. I don't think it's a good idea that someone who relies on medication not to hear voices in their head or who has extreme anger management issues be able to purchase a gatling gun with unlimited ammo.

Looking at it from the perspective of fundamental rights, would you accept these conditions for any other Bill of Rights amendments? Should people have to apply for a license from the government in order to publish something, in order to make sure they aren't crazy?

Good luck getting a sensible answer to that question.

I'd counter that with the question, should a mentally incapacitated man with a history of violent anger management issues be allowed to walk into a store absent any restrictions/waiting period etc. and purchase a machine gun and 10,000 rounds of ammunition? Wouldnt any restriction on this be an affront to his rights?

[Libertarian666]

I'm not against guns, I have many myself. I do think however their ownership should entail more comprehensive training requirements especially as their ability to kill increases...in same way that driving a semi truck full of hazardous materials requires special trajning and I believe their should be restrictions placed on past violent offenders and people with mental health disorders. I don't think it's a good idea that someone who relies on medication not to hear voices in their head or who has extreme anger management issues be able to purchase a gatling gun with unlimited ammo.

Looking at it from the perspective of fundamental rights, would you accept these conditions for any other Bill of Rights amendments? Should people have to apply for a license from the government in order to publish something, in order to make sure they aren't crazy?

Good luck getting a sensible answer to that question.

I'd counter that with the question, should a mentally incapacitated man with a history of violent anger management issues be allowed to walk into a store absent any restrictions/waiting period etc. and purchase a machine gun and 10,000 rounds of ammunition? Wouldnt any restriction on this be an affront to his rights?

Why is the mentally incapacitated man with a history of violent anger management issues allowed to walk around the streets at all? Couldn’t he use a kitchen knife to go on a stabbing spree or drive an SUV into a crowd of people? How does limiting this hypothetical person’s gun rights improve the safety of society by itself with no restrictions on anything else?

You forgot to mention that he should also be prohibited from buying gasoline, bottles, and rags...

[glennds]

I'm not against guns, I have many myself. I do think however their ownership should entail more comprehensive training requirements especially as their ability to kill increases...in same way that driving a semi truck full of hazardous materials requires special trajning and I believe their should be restrictions placed on past violent offenders and people with mental health disorders. I don't think it's a good idea that someone who relies on medication not to hear voices in their head or who has extreme anger management issues be able to purchase a gatling gun with unlimited ammo.

Looking at it from the perspective of fundamental rights, would you accept these conditions for any other Bill of Rights amendments? Should people have to apply for a license from the government in order to publish something, in order to make sure they aren't crazy?

Can you physically harm someone by publishing something?

The argument for a test before issuing a driver's license is safety.
But then again since the right to drive is not explicitly spelled out in the Constitution, there are some that say it is not a valid comparison.
It's a complicated issue without an obvious right or wrong answer.
I think of guns like tools. They don't come with user skills included. The proper use and benefits come with some commitment of time, effort, practice, and a bit of education and training. I have known gun aficionados who feel strongly about this, and draw a distinction between gun ownership and responsible gun ownership. Whether this is something that ought to be regulated is a matter of deep debate.

[doodle]

I'm not against guns, I have many myself. I do think however their ownership should entail more comprehensive training requirements especially as their ability to kill increases...in same way that driving a semi truck full of hazardous materials requires special trajning and I believe their should be restrictions placed on past violent offenders and people with mental health disorders. I don't think it's a good idea that someone who relies on medication not to hear voices in their head or who has extreme anger management issues be able to purchase a gatling gun with unlimited ammo.

Looking at it from the perspective of fundamental rights, would you accept these conditions for any other Bill of Rights amendments? Should people have to apply for a license from the government in order to publish something, in order to make sure they aren't crazy?

Good luck getting a sensible answer to that question.

I'd counter that with the question, should a mentally incapacitated man with a history of violent anger management issues be allowed to walk into a store absent any restrictions/waiting period etc. and purchase a machine gun and 10,000 rounds of ammunition? Wouldnt any restriction on this be an affront to his rights?

Why is the mentally incapacitated man with a history of violent anger management issues allowed to walk around the streets at all? Couldn’t he use a kitchen knife to go on a stabbing spree or drive an SUV into a crowd of people? How does limiting this hypothetical person’s gun rights improve the safety of society by itself with no restrictions on anything else?

You forgot to mention that he should also be prohibited from buying gasoline, bottles, and rags...

Yes, it's complicated and nuanced. I'd argue though that there is a difference between a fully automatic machine gun and a can of gasoline...I mean a sharpened pencil can be a deadly weapon yet we give them to elementary students..however we don't give them switchblades..I guess we should reevaluate that...perhaps they should be allowed to play with those during recess. Is the entire universe an all or nothing proposition to you? Is there no room for limitations? Is anything other than pure unregulated capitalism simply a form of communism? Why no subtlety?

[Mark Leavy]

I mean a sharpened pencil can be a deadly weapon yet we give them to elementary students..however we don't give them switchblades..I guess we should reevaluate that...perhaps they should be allowed to play with those during recess.

I carried a folding blade or stiletto all through school, from about 11 years old on. So did most of the boys. At recess we played mumblety peg. Or sat around and carved stuff out of sticks.

[Mountaineer]

I mean a sharpened pencil can be a deadly weapon yet we give them to elementary students..however we don't give them switchblades..I guess we should reevaluate that...perhaps they should be allowed to play with those during recess.

I carried a folding blade or stiletto all through school, from about 11 years old on. So did most of the boys. At recess we played mumblety peg. Or sat around and carved stuff out of sticks.

O those mumble-peg days, scars to prove it, shooting at each other in pellet gun fights, meeting up and racing home after a night with the girls - and we all survived. No snowflakes in my tribe!

[Mark Leavy]

About ten years ago, I was at a friend's house for dinner and his son had just turned 10, so I brought him a nice Leatherman as a gift. Seemed like an appropriate gift for a ten year old boy. The parents were a bit agasp. They generally approved but they were quick to tell the boy that he must never never never take it to school. It took me quite a while to figure out what the hell they were talking about.

[doodle]

Why did you stop at knives at your schools? Why didn't you all just bring guns as well? Maybe walk around the halls with spears and swords? Who is to say where to draw the line? Let each parent decide that....or maybe leave the decision up to the ten year old.

I mean a sharpened pencil can be a deadly weapon yet we give them to elementary students..however we don't give them switchblades..I guess we should reevaluate that...perhaps they should be allowed to play with those during recess.

I carried a folding blade or stiletto all through school, from about 11 years old on. So did most of the boys. At recess we played mumblety peg. Or sat around and carved stuff out of sticks.

[glennds]

About ten years ago, I was at a friend's house for dinner and his son had just turned 10, so I brought him a nice Leatherman as a gift. Seemed like an appropriate gift for a ten year old boy. The parents were a bit agasp. They generally approved but they were quick to tell the boy that he must never never never take it to school. It took me quite a while to figure out what the hell they were talking about.

When I was that age, having a folding knife was a common rite of passage. We called them jack knives. My father called them pen knives. Whittling, carving, all sorts of uses. If you cut yourself with it, it healed. Straight out of Huckleberry Finn. If you were lucky, your Dad or granddad showed you how to sharpen it on an Arkansas stone.
If you were rich kid, maybe you had a high grade swiss army knife with a bunch of tools within. Leatherman tools hadn't come along yet, but the mere sight of one would be like seeing the holy grail. Yes, things have changed. Whittling is a lost art. So is skipping rocks on a river or lake.

[Mark Leavy]

Why did you stop at knives at your schools? Why didn't you all just bring guns as well? Maybe walk around the halls with spears and swords? Who is to say where to draw the line? Let each parent decide that....or maybe leave the decision up to the ten year old.

I mean a sharpened pencil can be a deadly weapon yet we give them to elementary students..however we don't give them switchblades..I guess we should reevaluate that...perhaps they should be allowed to play with those during recess.

I carried a folding blade or stiletto all through school, from about 11 years old on. So did most of the boys. At recess we played mumblety peg. Or sat around and carved stuff out of sticks.

I did manage to make a pretty good bow, quiver and arrows using the walnut grove next to the school and a dead cat. I even gave a little demonstration of how to knap arrowheads to the class while presenting the history of the Tule Indians. I was still working on gunpowder though, I couldn't find a good source of guano...

I got an "A"

Mark

[l82start]

About ten years ago, I was at a friend's house for dinner and his son had just turned 10, so I brought him a nice Leatherman as a gift. Seemed like an appropriate gift for a ten year old boy. The parents were a bit agasp. They generally approved but they were quick to tell the boy that he must never never never take it to school. It took me quite a while to figure out what the hell they were talking about.

When I was that age, having a folding knife was a common rite of passage. We called them jack knives. My father called them pen knives. Whittling, carving, all sorts of uses. If you cut yourself with it, it healed. Straight out of Huckleberry Finn. If you were lucky, your Dad or granddad showed you how to sharpen it on an Arkansas stone.
If you were rich kid, maybe you had a high grade swiss army knife with a bunch of tools within. Leatherman tools hadn't come along yet, but the mere sight of one would be like seeing the holy grail. Yes, things have changed. Whittling is a lost art. So is skipping rocks on a river or lake.

same here i had a (low grade) swiss army knife at that age, although i don't recall bringing it to school.. also had a jack knife in my tackle box for fishing and whittling..

[doodle]

Yeah, I did fencing in school...archery, probably brought my slingshot on occasion...played dodgeball with the bouncy red ball that would pack enough punch to make kids cry. So therefore we should allow kids to bring knives to school? And why stop there, why not guns? And if guns why not machine guns? Are there no lines?

[Mark Leavy]

Yeah, I did fencing in school...archery, probably brought my slingshot on occasion...played dodgeball with the bouncy red ball that would pack enough punch to make kids cry. So therefore we should allow kids to bring knives to school? And why stop there, why not guns? And if guns why not machine guns? Are there no lines?

Any good high school shop student can make a machine gun.

[Tortoise]

Yeah, I did fencing in school...archery, probably brought my slingshot on occasion...played dodgeball with the bouncy red ball that would pack enough punch to make kids cry. So therefore we should allow kids to bring knives to school? And why stop there, why not guns? And if guns why not machine guns? Are there no lines?

Any good high school shop student can make a machine gun.

i made a compressed air test tube plug gun in high-school out of a tent post, a broom stick, and a rubber test tube stopper.
it was pretty cool, it would launch a stopper a football fields distance, it got confiscated after a bit, but i did get an A in the class....

My friends and I built our own potato cannons back in high school. So much fun.

we did some of that as well (outside of school).. the test tube plug gun was an approved project, the teacher knew what we were making, and we were responsible gun users, we didn't break anything or shoot anyone.. i suspect the confiscation was more due to the rapidly dwindling supply of test tube stoppers in the sci lab than it was about safety...

[Kriegsspiel]

You guys would probably love the weapons in Metro 2033, a computer game based on the novel by Glukhovsky. Other than the AK and the revolver, it's all pneumatic pump guns and zip guns.

[Mark Leavy]

My friends and I built our own potato cannons back in high school. So much fun.

Yea, but once you figured out you could use a can of hair spray as a flame thrower...

And just to wrap it up...
Dry ice bombs
Thermite charges
Giant trash bags full of Hydrogen from electrolysis

How the hell do kids learn anything about science or making anything these days?

Mark
(Old as fuck)

[Kriegsspiel]

Walking by the local high school last year, I saw some kids testing out a motherfucking trebuchet, which was the nuclear bomb of its day.

[yankees60]

About ten years ago, I was at a friend's house for dinner and his son had just turned 10, so I brought him a nice Leatherman as a gift. Seemed like an appropriate gift for a ten year old boy. The parents were a bit agasp. They generally approved but they were quick to tell the boy that he must never never never take it to school. It took me quite a while to figure out what the hell they were talking about.

When I was that age, having a folding knife was a common rite of passage. We called them jack knives. My father called them pen knives. Whittling, carving, all sorts of uses. If you cut yourself with it, it healed. Straight out of Huckleberry Finn. If you were lucky, your Dad or granddad showed you how to sharpen it on an Arkansas stone.
If you were rich kid, maybe you had a high grade swiss army knife with a bunch of tools within. Leatherman tools hadn't come along yet, but the mere sight of one would be like seeing the holy grail. Yes, things have changed. Whittling is a lost art. So is skipping rocks on a river or lake.

Was this a rural versus suburbs thing? I'm at least as old as the oldest in that age range and older than the rest. I grew up in the intense suburbs and I remember NO ONE having a knife from elementary school through high school. And, just yesterday I was thinking about how the whole school experience from start to finish was such an authoritarian, repressive experience. Strict dress codes and discipline with on one ever challenging. Ant, this was public schools! None of wanted to go to a Catholic school and get beaten up by those nuns!

Vinny

[Kriegsspiel]

Was this a rural versus suburbs thing? I'm at least as old as the oldest in that age range and older than the rest. I grew up in the intense suburbs and I remember NO ONE having a knife from elementary school through high school. And, just yesterday I was thinking about how the whole school experience from start to finish was such an authoritarian, repressive experience. Strict dress codes and discipline with on one ever challenging. Ant, this was public schools! None of wanted to go to a Catholic school and get beaten up by those nuns!

Vinny

Shit, I held my friend hostage on the steps of the school with one of those yellow children's bake set knives while wearing my Catholic elementary school uniform at recess back in the good ole days when you weren't immediately expelled for that kind of thing.

IIRC the recess lady just walked up as I was yelling some childhood version of Allahu Akbar and took my blade away and me and Kenny grumbled a bit and walked away. I don't think they ever gave it back either.

[yankees60]

Was this a rural versus suburbs thing? I'm at least as old as the oldest in that age range and older than the rest. I grew up in the intense suburbs and I remember NO ONE having a knife from elementary school through high school. And, just yesterday I was thinking about how the whole school experience from start to finish was such an authoritarian, repressive experience. Strict dress codes and discipline with on one ever challenging. Ant, this was public schools! None of wanted to go to a Catholic school and get beaten up by those nuns!

Vinny

Shit, I held my friend hostage on the steps of the school with one of those yellow children's bake set knives while wearing my Catholic elementary school uniform at recess back in the good ole days when you weren't immediately expelled for that kind of thing.

IIRC the recess lady just walked up as I was yelling some childhood version of Allahu Akbar and took my blade away and me and Kenny grumbled a bit and walked away. I don't think they ever gave it back either.

My only memory of the nuns was when we public school Catholics were practicing outdoors at the church for Confirmation. One of the kids was a bit loud when a few nuns walked by. I think it was the Sister Superior who said to one of the other nuns, "Bring him over here so I can slap his face!"

THAT made a big impression on me! As public school kids teachers were not allowed to touch us like that! Plus, we'd routinely hear the stories of nuns rapping kids hands with rulers.

I never felt deprived not having experienced a Catholic school education. By the way where I grew up we had a huge, huge, huge Catholic population. My Italian Catholic church had 10,000 parishioners while the Irish Catholic church, with which we shared a parking lot, had about another 3,000.

Vinny

[Mark Leavy]

I was on a kick for awhile in my early teens trying to figure out different ways to generate hydrogen gas for balloons (until I blew the windows out of the garage and my mom told me to stop).

I figured out a reaction that looked promising. Aluminum and hydrochloric acid. So I cut up a bunch of a soda cans and bought some Muriatic Acid from the pool supply place (dilute hydrochloric). Worked great, but the reaction was exothermic and spewed a ton of chlorine gas as a by product. That's the closest I've come to killing myself. You do not want to breath chlorine gas. If I were to bubble the gas through water though...

Ah...

[Libertarian666]

Why did you stop at knives at your schools? Why didn't you all just bring guns as well? Maybe walk around the halls with spears and swords? Who is to say where to draw the line? Let each parent decide that....or maybe leave the decision up to the ten year old.

I mean a sharpened pencil can be a deadly weapon yet we give them to elementary students..however we don't give them switchblades..I guess we should reevaluate that...perhaps they should be allowed to play with those during recess.

I carried a folding blade or stiletto all through school, from about 11 years old on. So did most of the boys. At recess we played mumblety peg. Or sat around and carved stuff out of sticks.

Why not let boys bring a nuclear bomb to school? How about a little hydrogen fission during recess?

In all seriousness, I would argue that you don't need a knife for a teen boy to kill another student. A good double leg takedown onto concrete or tile flooring will result in death. Picking up a rock and smashing it against another student's head will cause death. Perhaps we can landscape schools to avoid rocks or hard surfaces. Rubber padding everywhere.

No teen boys NEED rocks. Schools don't NEED concrete sidewalks or tile floors. Just the same as they don't need a knife or nuclear bomb.

That reminds me of one of the very few times I lost my temper at being repeatedly harassed at school. I knocked down my tormentor with one punch, then started beating his head against the concrete step. (I can still see the step and the glass door behind it.)

A couple of other students pulled me off him or I might have done serious harm.

Of course I was sent to the principal's office, where he said, "This isn't like you. What happened?" I explained how this guy had been harassing me constantly for months, and I just lost it. He said, "That's about what I figured. Don't let it happen again.", to which obviously I said "Yes, sir."

Oddly enough, after that the guy wanted to be my friend, which I wasn't interested in but didn't make a big fuss about.

[Mark Leavy]

...
never felt deprived not having experienced a Catholic school education
...

Vinny

If I could have changed anything in my education, I would have gone with the Jesuits. They seem like they were pretty badass all the way around.

Only the good die young.