Given "spending is irrelevant"/fiat money, why not give every poor person 30K?

[doodle]

Slotine,

Im saying what would happen if we underwent a grassroots culture shift? Where 98 percent of people through sudden epiphany bought into the MMM philosophy just like 98 percent of people today buy into the opposite philosophy that consumption causes increases in happiness. If this culture shift were to occur, what would such an economy look like...how would it function? Could we still maintain the level of lifestyle that made MMM possible to begin with and just chill. Or would it all crash?

[MediumTex]

Slotine,

Im saying what would happen if we underwent a grassroots culture shift? Where 98 percent of people through sudden epiphany bought into the MMM philosophy just like 98 percent of people today buy into the opposite philosophy that consumption causes increases in happiness. If this culture shift were to occur, what would such an economy look like...how would it function? Could we still maintain the level of lifestyle that made MMM possible to begin with and just chill. Or would it all crash?

But isn't that like asking "What would human society be like if the humans were replaced with human-like creatures of much greater enlightenment?"

What would lions be like if they had weaker jaws?

What would sharks be like if they couldn't swim as fast?

What would ants be like if they were less diligent?

It seems like you are asking a similar question about our own species.

[Gumby]

You are immature and Im done debating with you.

No need to resort to name calling, doodle — I thought you were critical of name calling. Anyway, I was just pointing out the fact that you are indeed getting very emotional about this — and you ought not to. You claim to use Buddhist principals to keep yourself peaceful and enlightened, but it sounds like you may need to try a bit harder on that front. I'm not trying to be rude. But, if you truly believe in Buddha's teachings, you wouldn't be so emotional about this subject. Anyway, my apologies if you were offended.

the question i think we are struggling to get at is not how the system we have works but how a system based on different values ( ERE, simple living, free time oriented) would work?, how would it mesh with a debt based system? could it mesh?

Well, get on with it then... You guys have spent the past 10 pages whining about consumerism and have never once explained how a non-consumerist or stagnant society would work.

Simply saying that everyone can become artisans or cobblers isn't an economic model. Artisans and cobblers turned into our current capitalist society!

[doodle]

Holy smokes slotine! MMM /ERE is not communism. It isnt related in the least. Why are we going down that path....geez louise. Im not forcing anyone into the MMM philosophy. In fact the MMM philosophy thrives all the more in rampant consumer capitalism. Capitalism is its fertilizer that allows it to grow. What happens though if the philosophy underpinning it though becomes mainstream though? That is my question. That has nothing to do with communism in the least.

[l82start]

the question i think we are struggling to get at is not how the system we have works but how a system based on different values ( ERE, simple living, free time oriented) would work?, how would it mesh with a debt based system? could it mesh?

Well, get on with it then... You guys have spent the past 10 pages whining about consumerism and have never once explained how a non-consumerism society would work.

Simply saying that everyone can become artisans or cobblers isn't an economic model. Artisans and cobblers turned into our current capitalist society!

  i don't think i have been whining about anything.   

i have been posing this as a question and not posting theory of how it would work because i honestly don't think my grasp of macro economics is up to it, i was hoping those smarter than me might have some interesting insights....    but give me some time to think it through and i will try to put out a imaginary starting point and cover some of the possibility's. 

[doodle]

I think this disagreement comes down to the question of what is mans true nature? Some view it as a fixed set of values that are unchanging and never possible of evolving. Avarice, power, violence is something we are stuck with forever. If MMM means a shift in conciousness with regards to avarice in particular, and it is possible for some humans to drop avarice. What happens if more humans start dropping it? Can we transition into such a society smoothly or does the whole economy crash and we go back to being cavemen?

Is there a way to have a productive modern economy without avarice in other words? What would an economy or world full of MMM people look like?

[Gumby]

What happens though if the philosophy underpinning it though becomes mainstream though? That is my question.

It won't. Even the Amish have to actively restrain themselves from endulging in hedonistic consumption. Same thing with Buddhist monks. It takes a lot of work to avoid the natural urge to indulge.

[doodle]

MMM allows you to indulge. I eat a crap ton of junk, drink, fornicate, have a computer, TV, clothes, appliances etc etc. but im still an MMM person and if everyone lived like me this economy would have a lot more unemployed people. MMM does not require amish or monk like behavior. It requires placing a value on things that dont traditionally carry price tags like free time and peace of mind.

[Gumby]

MMM allows you to indulge. I eat a crap ton of junk, drink, fornicate, have a computer, TV, clothes, appliances etc etc. but im still an MMM person and if everyone lived like me this economy would have a lot more unemployed people.

Yes, but you are actively restraining the amount of indulgence you allow yourself in order to achieve a MMM lifestyle. I assume you have enough money to buy a cheap car, but you don't allow yourself — or feel the need — to indulge in a car. Well, most people want a car. It's a nice indulgence that most people are willing to purchase — as evidenced by the fact that car companies exist to meet that demand.

And I don't need a toaster oven, but I found a really good one and I love the way it heats things up better than my old standard toaster. So, I'm really glad I bought one. I'm happy about it! I would be a little sad if it broke.

[doodle]

Yes, gumby that is true. Most people have more wants than me. They also have a lot more stress, financial instability and a lot less free time. Is it inconceivable that more people might not decide to jump out of the rat race and into MMM if it were more of a mainstream style of thinking? Having a car is nice....not having to work a crapton to pay for it is also nice. Right now the car wins for most people, based on alot of factors advertising, social pressures, living situations etc. but it is conceivable that that could change without coercive action.

[doodle]

Slotine....something stuck out from that lowgrow. Agregate demand falls below aggregate supply. If everyone was MMM this is what would happen. The leaders today see the solution as increasing aggregate demand. I see the solution as lowering aggregate supply by working less. Both models achieve balance. Mine seems more sustainable though and with the added benefit of less stress and work!

Our economy would be in balance if we were more mustachian! Jump in the waters fine!!! :-)

[Gumby]

I'll do the work for them.  The Green Party in Canada has a toy model they've been using to study LowGrow (low GDP growth) economies in lieu of the current model.  It's still not what doodle wants, but close enough as my communism case has drawn more knee-jerk reactions than true introspection.

http://www.greenparty.ca/sites/greenpar ... growth.pdf

Even the authors aren't oblivious to the need for policy intervention as a way to stabilize a no-growth model.

There we go. You have to regulate human nature.

Yes, gumby that is true. Most people have more wants than me. They also have a lot more stress, financial instability and a lot less free time.

Well, doodle, you can't change their innate qualities now can you? People are making the free choice to afford those indulgences.

Is it inconceivable that more people might not decide to jump out of the rat race and into MMM if it were more of a mainstream style of thinking?

Have you considered that humans are a lot like rats? Would rat experiments stop working if all the rats in the world decided that the cheese at the end of the maze wasn't worth it? Sure. But, it ain't going to happen.

If the MMM lifestyle were what humans wanted, it would be a more mainstream style of thinking. But, it's not.

Having a car is nice....not having to work a crapton to pay for it is also nice. Right now the car wins for most people, based on alot of factors advertising, social pressures, living situations etc. but it is conceivable that that could change without coercive action.

Just buy a cheaper car. The free market works because people will only pay the amount for a car that they think the convenience is worth in terms of the work needed to obtain it. That's why they call it the "free market".

[doodle]

Well, doodle, you can't change their innate qualities now can you? People are making the free choice to afford those indulgences.

Well actually i dont think they are making a free choice. I tried to argue that earlier. I think they are socially conditioned into making a certain set of choices. Given another set of social conditions people might choose differently. MMM is trying to get people to see the game in a different light. If more people start buying into that view it could have a snowball affect....

[doodle]

Underpinning all of this is a nature vs nurture argument. You say it is in peoples nature to blindly consume...notice the word blindly. I consume ...i bought a cast iron pan a few years ago. I will never buy another pan in my life. The same goes for most things i own. If i could learn to live in the MMM style then unless i am a freak of nature, avarice is a nurtured quality of humans not part of their nature.

[Gumby]

Well actually i dont think they are making a free choice. I tried to argue that earlier. I think they are socially conditioned into making a certain set of choices. Given another set of social conditions people might choose differently. MMM is trying to get people to see the game in a different light. If more people start buying into that view it could have a snowball affect....

I seriously doubt that. Humans have craved hedonistic consumption since before primitive times. For instance, ancient bodies have been discovered wearing gold jewelry (earrings, bracelets, necklaces, etc). So, this is not a new phenomenon. These ancient cultures made a free choice to adorn themselves with things they did not need. There were no commercials or magazines to influence them. These ancient cultures indulged because they wanted to.

[Gumby]

Underpinning all of this is a nature vs nurture argument. You say it is in peoples nature to blindly consume...notice the word blindly. I consume ...i bought a cast iron pan a few years ago. I will never buy another pan in my life. The same goes for most things i own. If i could learn to live in the MMM style then unless i am a freak of nature, avarice is a nurtured quality of humans not part of their nature.

Bad example. Most people buy one set of pots/pans and one or two set of plates for their whole lives (one casual, one formal). As long as people continue to grow up and start cooking for themselves, there will always be a steady demand for dinnerware and cookware. You may claim that you will pass your cast iron pan down to your children, but chances are they will buy their own pan since you will (hopefully) still be using your pan when they start cooking for themselves. Not to mention that you will need to have 2 kids to keep the population from shrinking, so it would be difficult to split your cast iron pan into two pans.

[doodle]

I crave hedonistic consumption too just like i crave food. I stop eating when im full....you apparently never get full. That sounds psychotic like someone who masturbates all day or has a compulsive eating disorder.

The indians hunted buffalo and got along fine maintaining a healthy herd population. The white man huntd bufallo and nearly extinguished them. The white mans behavior with respect to buffalo isnt natural, its psychotic

[Gumby]

I crave hedonistic consumption too just like i crave food. I stop eating when im full....you apparently never get full. That sounds psychotic like someone who masturbates all day or has a compulsive eating disorder.

Who says I never get full? Where in this conversation did anyone ever talk about how much I consume? I buy quality products and try to never replace them, just like you. My kid is a different story. He is growing and constantly needs new clothes, toys, sports equipment, learning tools, etc. We borrow and take hand-me-downs when we can. I own a car because I'm willing to work enough hours in order to afford one. That's my free choice. It's worth it to me. Who the F are you to judge? 

The indians hunted buffalo and got along fine maintaining a healthy herd population. The white man huntd bufallo and nearly extinguished them. The white mans behavior with respect to buffalo isnt natural, its psychotic

If you are talking about "sustainable" consumption, that's another story. I fully support sustainable consumption whenever possible. For instance, I try to only eat from sustainable fish populations when I can.

[doodle]

On behalf of MMM, I want to sincerely thank all the people out there dedicated to keeping this economy growing. Although I think there is possibly another way to make this work, your hard slave like labor and blind consumption allows me to enjoy many days of leisure and ease living off of what amounted to 10 years of work. As long as you keep buying things and consuming ill probably never have to work another day in my life and still be able to maintain a modern life of comfort and ease. I guess i shouldnt really be complaining. I guess im just trying to let you know that things are great in MMM land and you are always invited to come over! As long as your consumption doesnt pollute and poison my environment we will never have the slightest problem :-)

[Gumby]

On behalf of MMM, I want to sincerely thank all the people out there dedicated to keeping this economy growing. Although I think there is possibly another way to make this work, your hard slave like labor and blind consumption allows me to enjoy many days of leisure and ease living off of what amounted to 10 years of work. As long as you keep buying things and consuming ill probably never have to work another day in my life and still be able to maintain a modern life of comfort and ease. I guess i shouldnt really be complaining. I guess im just trying to let you know that things are great in MMM land and you are always invited to come over! As long as your consumption doesnt pollute and poison my environment we will never have the slightest problem :-)

And the rest of us want to thank you for consuming so little. By not consuming, like a typical individual, you are helping to keep prices low and affordable for the rest of us so that we can satisfy our hedonistic and utilitarian consumption more easily. Thanks, doodle! You don't work much and you don't consume much. It's kind of like you don't even exist in society.

Isn't the free market great?

[doodle]

Gumby, it sounds like you are a self hating concious consumer and MMM advocate based on your last post. This isnt a movement about the end of consumption it is a movement for concious consumption. Growth for the sake of growth alone like our leaders are proposing is not a good answer. That is the crux of my argument. Maybe we need to look at alternative models to growth. That is not judgemental or condescending.

[Gumby]

Gumby, it sounds like you are a self hating concious consumer and MMM advocate based on your last post. This isnt a movement about the end of consumption it is a movement for concious consumption. Growth for the sake of growth alone like our leaders are proposing is not a good answer. That is the crux of my argument. Maybe we need to look at alternative models to growth. That is not judgemental or condescending.

I'm a very conscious consumer. I only buy the highest quality goods/services when I can. How about you judge yourself. Isn't that one of Buddha's teachings or something?

[doodle]

Yes its great gumby! As u said other than feeling bad for people in the rat race its not my business other than i worry that we are pushing our environment to the brink and that is immoral to future generations and other animals on this planet. 

[doodle]

If your hedonistic consumption doesnt infringe on the rights of others im not judging you. But just like secondhand smoke, you have no right to allow your consumption orgy to pollute my environment. Or plunder the planet and leave it barren for future generations.

[Gumby]

If your hedonistic consumption doesnt infringe on the rights of others im not judging you. But just like secondhand smoke, you have no right to allow your consumption orgy to pollute my environment. Or plunder the planet and leave it barren for future generations.

I agree. Which is why I only try to consume from local and sustainable sources whenever possible and recycle or give away whatever I no longer need.

So... after all this, you're telling us something that we all already know. What was the point of all this again?