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Re: Coronavirus General Discussion
Posted: Sun Jul 05, 2020 12:31 pm
by WiseOne
Fascinating. I'm not sure how valid those O2 tests are under the mask, but it sure matches my experience. I get seriously out of breath when I'm walking uphill or fast while wearing a mask - and I'm just fine without the mask. I suspect that it's not so much the oxygen. The air you exhale has very close to the same oxygen content as the air you inhale (look it up, this has been studied - edited to add quote below). But, you're inhaling a lot more carbon dioxide than you would without the mask. And even small increases in blood CO2 can have a profound effect.
From wikipedia:
Inhaled air is by volume 78.08% nitrogen, 20.95% oxygen and small amounts of other gasses including argon, carbon dioxide, neon, helium, and hydrogen.[15]
The gas exhaled is 4% to 5% by volume of carbon dioxide, about a 100 fold increase over the inhaled amount. The volume of oxygen is reduced by a small amount, 4% to 5%, compared to the oxygen inhaled.
Typically masks are worn by people who are very ill (e.g. patients in the midst of cancer treatments) or medical professionals on duty. Neither of these are doing anything more strenuous than standing or walking short distances while wearing the mask. The orders to wear a mask in public amount to an involuntary and unethical experiment, and I would not be surprised if some susceptible people suffer real injury (e.g. heart attacks) as a result.
Re: Coronavirus General Discussion
Posted: Sun Jul 05, 2020 2:16 pm
by pp4me
A good piece on face masks with some real facts and figures.....
From the author....
Before you tar and feather me, note that I am a physician. I do not play one on TV like Anthony Fauci or Deborah Birx. I spent thirty-six years wearing a surgical mask on a daily basis. And it always felt so good to take it off when I left the operating room. I didn’t realize why until recently.
(Also, for some reason it seems to affect my vision when I have the face mask on).
Re: Coronavirus General Discussion
Posted: Sun Jul 05, 2020 3:16 pm
by yankees60
How Masks Went From Don’t-Wear to Must-Have
BY MEGAN MOLTENI AND ADAM ROGERS
Public health messaging and science have to work hard to stay in sync during a crisis. During the Covid-19 pandemic, they haven’t always succeeded.
https://www.wired.com/story/how-masks-w ... m=list1_p1
Re: Coronavirus General Discussion
Posted: Sun Jul 05, 2020 5:24 pm
by dualstow
pp4me wrote: ↑Sun Jul 05, 2020 2:16 pm
A good piece on face masks with some real facts and figures.....
From the author....
Before you tar and feather me, note that I am a physician. I do not play one on TV like Anthony Fauci or Deborah Birx. ]
...
What an assholish thing to say. I guess he wants to do the tarring and feathering.
Re: Coronavirus General Discussion
Posted: Sun Jul 05, 2020 5:47 pm
by pp4me
dualstow wrote: ↑Sun Jul 05, 2020 5:24 pm
pp4me wrote: ↑Sun Jul 05, 2020 2:16 pm
A good piece on face masks with some real facts and figures.....
From the author....
Before you tar and feather me, note that I am a physician. I do not play one on TV like Anthony Fauci or Deborah Birx. ]
...
What an assholish thing to say. I guess he wants to do the tarring and feathering.
An asshole is in the eye of the beholder.
Re: Coronavirus General Discussion
Posted: Sun Jul 05, 2020 6:13 pm
by Mountaineer
pp4me wrote: ↑Sun Jul 05, 2020 5:47 pm
dualstow wrote: ↑Sun Jul 05, 2020 5:24 pm
pp4me wrote: ↑Sun Jul 05, 2020 2:16 pm
A good piece on face masks with some real facts and figures.....
From the author....
Before you tar and feather me, note that I am a physician. I do not play one on TV like Anthony Fauci or Deborah Birx. ]
...
What an assholish thing to say. I guess he wants to do the tarring and feathering.
An asshole is in the eye of the beholder.
Or the behinder.
Re: Coronavirus General Discussion
Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2020 6:24 am
by dualstow
Steven Pinker on the Tribal Roots of Defying Social Distancing
But it’s more than a tribalism of being with your crowd. “There’s a moralistic component to this kind of tribalism, mainly that people tend to see their own tribes as victims of some kind of oppression or harm by some rival coalition,” Pinker says, his distinctive mass of gray hair filling the Zoom screen. “They believe their actions on behalf of the group, even if symbolic, are a kind of justice, a kind of settling the score, making a statement, advancing a moral cause—as strange as that may be to those of us who are not part of that coalition, and might even have contempt for that cause. But from the inside, it always feels as if your group has been victimized, has been a longstanding victim of a series of affronts and harms for which you seek redress. And that’s common in the invented histories and myths and narratives of many peoples.”
http://nautil.us/blog/steven-pinker-on- ... dab5982dd8
Mountaineer wrote: ↑Sun Jul 05, 2020 6:13 pm
Or the behinder.
right!
Re: Coronavirus General Discussion
Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2020 1:03 pm
by bedraggled
WiseOne,
I believe the New York City 'commuter tax' was reestablished 20 or so years ago. They may get you on that. Also, I think living 6+ months out of state would get you non-resident status: IT-203 time! Do consider the prospect of filing a state return in your new home state. Good laughs there as my family is familiar with the tax authorities of several states- and "Dad" gets to do those returns.
I have heard stories of people required to live in their primary residence co-op apartments but don't and experience no repercussions- they keep quiet, so I hear. I found it easier to abide by the co-op's desires. As Mark Twain said, "Always tell the truth. You will feel better and no one will believe you." I think the quote is exact.
Re: Coronavirus General Discussion
Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2020 9:28 pm
by Xan
pp4me wrote: ↑Wed Jul 01, 2020 11:31 amOn the home front, my daughter in Colorado called me last night and told me that both she and my son, ages 43 and 45 had both gotten Covid. Neither got tested but based on the symptoms they were describing, along with the fact another family member had tested positive and exposed others, it sure sounded like Covid to me. Neither had a fever but both described searing pain in their lungs. Fortunately they got over it quickly in only two days. When I told them they were supposed to quarantine for 14 days and inform anyone they had contact with, it was like they had never heard that before. My son actually planned on going back to work the next day.
My understanding was that 14 days was the incubation period, which you need to wait after exposure for symptoms to show up. That isn't at all the same as the amount of time you're contagious after recovering.
The guidelines around here seem to be that you can go about your business if both of the following are true:
* No fever for 72 hours
* 10 days since the onset of symptoms
Re: Coronavirus General Discussion
Posted: Tue Jul 07, 2020 5:50 am
by Mountaineer
Xan wrote: ↑Mon Jul 06, 2020 9:28 pm
pp4me wrote: ↑Wed Jul 01, 2020 11:31 amOn the home front, my daughter in Colorado called me last night and told me that both she and my son, ages 43 and 45 had both gotten Covid. Neither got tested but based on the symptoms they were describing, along with the fact another family member had tested positive and exposed others, it sure sounded like Covid to me. Neither had a fever but both described searing pain in their lungs. Fortunately they got over it quickly in only two days. When I told them they were supposed to quarantine for 14 days and inform anyone they had contact with, it was like they had never heard that before. My son actually planned on going back to work the next day.
My understanding was that 14 days was the incubation period, which you need to wait after exposure for symptoms to show up. That isn't at all the same as the amount of time you're contagious after recovering.
The guidelines around here seem to be that you can go about your business if both of the following are true:
* No fever for 72 hours
* 10 days since the onset of symptoms
Delaware guidelines:
Individuals with a confirmed case of COVID-19 must maintain home isolation until at least 3 days have passed since recovery began — defined as the end of a fever without the use of fever-reducing medications and improvement in respiratory symptoms (e.g., the end of their cough and/or shortness of breath); and, at least 7 days have passed since symptoms first appeared.
After discontinuation of home isolation, persons must continue to avoid sustained close contact with others, maintain strict social distancing and hand hygiene, and not return to work for an additional 4 days (for a total of 7 days without symptoms) due to the possible risk of continued infectiousness. Persons may return to work after this 7-day period, however, they should continue to recognize the risk of infectiousness and self-monitor for symptoms.
Re: Coronavirus General Discussion
Posted: Tue Jul 07, 2020 12:23 pm
by Hal
Meanwhile, in Melbourne, Australia
<snip>
Outsourcing quarantine to poorly trained, ill-equipped private security firms caused the failures, which included:
Security companies being paid for workers that didn’t exist.
Lack of guards to properly secure the hotels due to these “phantom” people.
Guards given insufficient infection control training.
Guards not following proper procedure – shaking hands, sharing lifts, sharing lighters, not wearing masks.
Guards wore personal protective equipment for up to eight hours without changing it.
Guards letting families go between rooms to play cards and games with others.
Guards sleeping on the job.
Some guards slept with guests.
Subcontracting guards at cheaper rates instead of standard guards.
Subcontracting guards switching shifts between hotels.
Guards moonlighting as Uber drivers.
A Bangladeshi man that was discharged from a Melbourne quarantine hotel after returning a positive test travelled to Sydney where he potentially spread the virus to colleagues at a Woolworths store in Balmain.
<snip>
https://www.macrobusiness.com.au/2020/0 ... st-resign/
Re: Coronavirus General Discussion
Posted: Wed Jul 08, 2020 5:42 pm
by pp4me
I'm starting to smell bullshit with the so-called "surge" in coronavirus cases based on test results.
Just how accurate is this test any way? I'm starting to hear that the test they are using will give a so-called positive result if you have antibodies in your system for the common cold.
Reminds me of going to the doctor even though you aren't really sick but they do a blood test and tell you that you really are any way. I'm talking about cholesterol here but it's the same idea.
Re: Coronavirus General Discussion
Posted: Thu Jul 09, 2020 6:16 am
by Maddy
pp4me wrote: ↑Wed Jul 08, 2020 5:42 pm
Just how accurate is this test any way? I'm starting to hear that the test they are using will give a so-called positive result if you have antibodies in your system for the common cold.
https://uncoverdc.com/2020/04/07/was-th ... t-a-virus/
Scroll down past the first couple of pages of introductory drivel, and you'll find a very enlightening discussion of this issue.
Re: Coronavirus General Discussion
Posted: Thu Jul 09, 2020 1:03 pm
by Mountaineer
Maddy wrote: ↑Thu Jul 09, 2020 6:16 am
pp4me wrote: ↑Wed Jul 08, 2020 5:42 pm
Just how accurate is this test any way? I'm starting to hear that the test they are using will give a so-called positive result if you have antibodies in your system for the common cold.
https://uncoverdc.com/2020/04/07/was-th ... t-a-virus/
Scroll down past the first couple of pages of introductory drivel, and you'll find a very enlightening discussion of this issue.
I sure would appreciate WiseOne’s comments on the linked article. Do we have a world wide pandemic or not? Are more people dying per month in 2020 than in previous years? If yes, why (other than we have an aging population)?
Re: Coronavirus General Discussion
Posted: Thu Jul 09, 2020 5:35 pm
by Hal
Funny parody of what's happening "down under"
https://www.macrobusiness.com.au/2020/0 ... -downfall/
PS:Look in the comments for a parody on the housing bubble...
Re: Coronavirus General Discussion
Posted: Fri Jul 10, 2020 9:28 am
by WiseOne
Mountaineer wrote: ↑Thu Jul 09, 2020 1:03 pm
Maddy wrote: ↑Thu Jul 09, 2020 6:16 am
pp4me wrote: ↑Wed Jul 08, 2020 5:42 pm
Just how accurate is this test any way? I'm starting to hear that the test they are using will give a so-called positive result if you have antibodies in your system for the common cold.
https://uncoverdc.com/2020/04/07/was-th ... t-a-virus/
Scroll down past the first couple of pages of introductory drivel, and you'll find a very enlightening discussion of this issue.
I sure would appreciate WiseOne’s comments on the linked article. Do we have a world wide pandemic or not? Are more people dying per month in 2020 than in previous years? If yes, why (other than we have an aging population)?
Yes those studies have been done. There is a measurable number of excess deaths this year compared to previous years. A couple of "buts":
Not all the deaths may be due to COVID. It's thought that a substantial fraction of them are due to people developing life-threatening emergencies who avoided going to the hospital due to fear of COVID. This is supported by the fact that deaths due to heart attacks, strokes and the like declined. There's of course no reason to think that these ailments miraculously stopped happening. Either these are being (wrongly) attributed to COVID because the person had flu-like symptoms at the time or simply tested positive, or they aren't being diagnosed because the person died at home and no autopsy was done to determine cause of death.
If most of the deaths are in the population of people who would have died within a year anyway, then you would expect that the bump in deaths during COVID would be followed by a decrease in deaths later on. Only time will tell if this is the case.
You can see that assessing the impact of COVID is not at all straightforward. One would never know this from how the media has portrayed it.
Re: Coronavirus General Discussion
Posted: Fri Jul 10, 2020 9:49 am
by Mountaineer
WiseOne wrote: ↑Fri Jul 10, 2020 9:28 am
Mountaineer wrote: ↑Thu Jul 09, 2020 1:03 pm
Maddy wrote: ↑Thu Jul 09, 2020 6:16 am
pp4me wrote: ↑Wed Jul 08, 2020 5:42 pm
Just how accurate is this test any way? I'm starting to hear that the test they are using will give a so-called positive result if you have antibodies in your system for the common cold.
https://uncoverdc.com/2020/04/07/was-th ... t-a-virus/
Scroll down past the first couple of pages of introductory drivel, and you'll find a very enlightening discussion of this issue.
I sure would appreciate WiseOne’s comments on the linked article. Do we have a world wide pandemic or not? Are more people dying per month in 2020 than in previous years? If yes, why (other than we have an aging population)?
Yes those studies have been done. There is a measurable number of excess deaths this year compared to previous years. A couple of "buts":
Not all the deaths may be due to COVID. It's thought that a substantial fraction of them are due to people developing life-threatening emergencies who avoided going to the hospital due to fear of COVID. This is supported by the fact that deaths due to heart attacks, strokes and the like declined. There's of course no reason to think that these ailments miraculously stopped happening. Either these are being (wrongly) attributed to COVID because the person had flu-like symptoms at the time or simply tested positive, or they aren't being diagnosed because the person died at home and no autopsy was done to determine cause of death.
If most of the deaths are in the population of people who would have died within a year anyway, then you would expect that the bump in deaths during COVID would be followed by a decrease in deaths later on. Only time will tell if this is the case.
You can see that assessing the impact of COVID is not at all straightforward. One would never know this from how the media has portrayed it.
Thank you WiseOne for taking the time to answer, and for your expertise!
Re: Coronavirus General Discussion
Posted: Sat Jul 11, 2020 9:35 am
by Mountaineer
Excellent article.
The author exposes the real scandal of the COVID-19 response in the NE US: The deliberate infestation of long term care facilities aka nursing homes. LTC deaths account for nearly half of the COVID deaths in New York and New Jersey. In Pennsylvania the percentage is horrific: As of Thursday, 68.5%. The worst in the nation. The worst in the world.
https://fee.org/articles/3-states-accou ... Ruh5dF5pTI
Re: Coronavirus General Discussion
Posted: Sat Jul 11, 2020 10:53 am
by Libertarian666
Mountaineer wrote: ↑Sat Jul 11, 2020 9:35 am
Excellent article.
The author exposes the real scandal of the COVID-19 response in the NE US: The deliberate infestation of long term care facilities aka nursing homes. LTC deaths account for nearly half of the COVID deaths in New York and New Jersey. In Pennsylvania the percentage is horrific: As of Thursday, 68.5%. The worst in the nation. The worst in the world.
https://fee.org/articles/3-states-accou ... Ruh5dF5pTI
Yes, but those people were very expensive to those states. The governors and mayors were just trying to save the taxpayers money!
(Note: this is sarcasm)
Re: Coronavirus General Discussion
Posted: Sun Jul 12, 2020 12:42 am
by yankees60
Bill Nye Is Here to Demonstrate That Face Masks Get the Job Done
https://time.com/5865625/bill-nye-coronavirus-masks/
Re: Coronavirus General Discussion
Posted: Sun Jul 12, 2020 10:55 am
by Cortopassi
Re: Coronavirus General Discussion
Posted: Sun Jul 12, 2020 11:35 am
by yankees60
Can "normal" people like us even buy N95 masks anywhere?
Vinny
Re: Coronavirus General Discussion
Posted: Sun Jul 12, 2020 12:05 pm
by yankees60
MangoMan wrote: ↑Sun Jul 12, 2020 11:48 am
yankees60 wrote: ↑Sun Jul 12, 2020 11:35 am
Can "normal" people like us even buy N95 masks anywhere?
Vinny
Not sure about western MA, but you can buy them at Ace Hardware here and any Chinese owned dry cleaner. But why would you need one?
Are they not the most effective mask form?
Vinny
Re: Coronavirus General Discussion
Posted: Sun Jul 12, 2020 12:45 pm
by Hal
yankees60 wrote: ↑Sun Jul 12, 2020 12:05 pm
MangoMan wrote: ↑Sun Jul 12, 2020 11:48 am
yankees60 wrote: ↑Sun Jul 12, 2020 11:35 am
Can "normal" people like us even buy N95 masks anywhere?
Vinny
Not sure about western MA, but you can buy them at Ace Hardware here and any Chinese owned dry cleaner. But why would you need one?
Are they not the most effective mask form?
Vinny
Yes, especially duckbill style.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MUwjwxbhhHY
Re: Coronavirus General Discussion
Posted: Sun Jul 12, 2020 12:57 pm
by WiseOne
I don't get it. All I see in the video is condensate from the sudden cooling of air above the pans of liquid nitrogen being blown by the force of the person's breath. Of course that's stopped by a mask, because the air will leak out the sides instead.
I do agree that masks will help prevent droplets from a cough or sneeze getting on someone else in close proximity, which would certainly transmit the virus. But that's it. I doubt they accomplish anything at a distance, or outdoors where the droplets disperse quickly, or to protect you if someone does cough or sneeze on you. They may even make it worse since you'll transmit the virus very effectively to yourself from the outside of the mask when you take it off, because you're not trained how to do it and likely use the same mask repeatedly.
right!