Figuring Out Religion

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Re: Figuring Out Religion

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madbean2 wrote:
Mountaineer wrote: Come on guys, surely you have a worldview.  I'm seriously having trouble understanding that you don't have an explanation that makes sense to you that explains the way things are; otherwise, you would not be able to critique the Christianity worldview. 
I find the theory that the universe is a computer simulation to be more plausible than your talking snake theory (aka, the Christian "worldview").

Your model begins with a creation account that is laughable in its scientific illiteracy. Whoever the author was didn't even know that the sun was the source of light. The sun doesn't come into the picture until the fourth day when it is revealed as one of two great lights along with the moon. The stars were created on the same day, after the sun and moon if you read it in sequence. The earth brought forth vegetation on the third day however, before the sun. Go figure.

So, if I am really looking for a plausible "worldview" why should I not stop at chapter 1 of this book?. If it can't get the creation story right, why should I believe the talking snake story that is revealed in chapter 3 as an explanation for why the world is the way it is?
For anyone who has seen the movie Shallow Hal, I think that Mountaineer is like Jack Black's character, and Christianity is like Gwyneth Paltrow's character.

Mountaineer is seeing something different than we are seeing.  I'm not saying it's right or wrong, but it is different.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

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madbean2 wrote:
Mountaineer wrote: Come on guys, surely you have a worldview.  I'm seriously having trouble understanding that you don't have an explanation that makes sense to you that explains the way things are; otherwise, you would not be able to critique the Christianity worldview. 
I find the theory that the universe is a computer simulation to be more plausible than your talking snake theory (aka, the Christian "worldview").

Your model begins with a creation account that is laughable in its scientific illiteracy. Whoever the author was didn't even know that the sun was the source of light. The sun doesn't come into the picture until the fourth day when it is revealed as one of two great lights along with the moon. The stars were created on the same day, after the sun and moon if you read it in sequence. The earth brought forth vegetation on the third day however, before the sun. Go figure.

So, if I am really looking for a plausible "worldview" why should I not stop at chapter 1 of this book?. If it can't get the creation story right, why should I believe the talking snake story that is revealed in chapter 3 as an explanation for why the world is the way it is?
A comment on your Genesis 1 quandry that may help solve the mystery of light:  John 8:12 Again Jesus spoke to them, saying, “I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will not walk in darkness, but will have the light of life.”  Second clue, you may wish to do a Scripture search of the term "I am" and see where all it is located and what it means.

Now, for your worldview.  Fair enough.  I'm taking you at your word that the "computer simulation" is a better case than Christianity for a worldview and that is the case you are using to critique Christianity.

Thus to begin the testing, in your worldview, who programed the computer, and where did the skills to program come from?

... Mountaineer
Last edited by Mountaineer on Wed Jun 17, 2015 7:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

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Mountaineer wrote: Now, for your worldview.  Fair enough.  I'm taking you at your word that the "computer simulation" is a better case than Christianity for a worldview and that is the case you are using to critique Christianity.

Thus to begin the testing, in your worldview, who programed the computer, and where did the skills to program come from?

... Mountaineer
It's not my worldview. I didn't say I believed it. I just said it was a more plausible theory than the Christian worldview.

As for who programmed the computer, he chooses not to interact directly with his creation so we don't know who he is. We only know he works in mysterious ways.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

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Mountaineer wrote: A comment on your Genesis 1 quandry that may help solve the mystery of light:  John 8:12 Again Jesus spoke to them, saying, “I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will not walk in darkness, but will have the light of life.”  Second clue, you may wish to do a Scripture search of the term "I am" and see where all it is located and what it means.
It's not my quandary. It's Genesis 1's quandary.

I've noticed that you have an interesting way of dealing with Biblical problems. When a literal reading is problematic, just turn into a spiritual meaning. Problem solved.

3 And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. 4 God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light “day,” and the darkness he called “night.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day.

So that light was the spiritual light of Jesus on the first day is what you are saying? And that allowed the vegetation to grow on the third day before the sun was created on the fourth day?
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

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madbean2 wrote:
Mountaineer wrote: Now, for your worldview.  Fair enough.  I'm taking you at your word that the "computer simulation" is a better case than Christianity for a worldview and that is the case you are using to critique Christianity.

Thus to begin the testing, in your worldview, who programed the computer, and where did the skills to program come from?

... Mountaineer
It's not my worldview. I didn't say I believed it. I just said it was a more plausible theory than the Christian worldview.

As for who programmed the computer, he chooses not to interact directly with his creation so we don't know who he is. We only know he works in mysterious ways.
So, what is your "better case than Christianity" worldview?  Must be even better than the computer idea.

... Mountaineer
Put not your trust in princes, in a son of man, in whom there is no help. Psalm 146:3
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

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madbean2 wrote:
Mountaineer wrote: A comment on your Genesis 1 quandry that may help solve the mystery of light:  John 8:12 Again Jesus spoke to them, saying, “I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will not walk in darkness, but will have the light of life.”  Second clue, you may wish to do a Scripture search of the term "I am" and see where all it is located and what it means.
It's not my quandary. It's Genesis 1's quandary.

I've noticed that you have an interesting way of dealing with Biblical problems. When a literal reading is problematic, just turn into a spiritual meaning. Problem solved.

3 And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. 4 God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light “day,” and the darkness he called “night.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day.

So that light was the spiritual light of Jesus on the first day is what you are saying? And that allowed the vegetation to grow on the third day before the sun was created on the fourth day?
Are you interested in presenting your better case?  Or just taking shots from the sidelines?  I actually think I could learn from you if you would contribute positively.

... Mountaineer
Put not your trust in princes, in a son of man, in whom there is no help. Psalm 146:3
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

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On reading the PS/MT conversion thread, it brought up a point that I've thought about in the past. I've gotten a lot closer in regards to why I need Christianity/God because I am a nihilist for the most part. I care about family/friends/medical technology that allows people to have better quality of life with friends and family/travel to a certain extent/and God. Anything else outside of that list has a lot less meaning to me. As an engineer, I feel that we're doing quite well from a technology standpoint and there is nothing currently in my mind that we "need" other than medical tech. For the most part we're just all making "wants", or conveniences.

Because of all of this, I am led to look for a greater purpose which Christianity provides for quite nicely. I can understand why some might be against organized religion but I like thinking of boiling it down to people trying to understand God better and not just going to church. Where I really feel that I get the most growth is on this forum through this thread and through a small worship group I go to where we dive deeper into topics that can't be spoken about during a 20-minute sermon.

Update: I think due to my nihilistic tendencies, if I didn't have Christianity/God, I'd be a lot more depressed and find a lot less meaning in life.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

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I feel largely the same way, Greg. Nihilism comes easily to me too, and so much of modern life seems devoted to satisfying ever more esoteric and unnecessary wants. I feel like I'd like to find some kind of hidden or higher meaning too, but my explorations of Christianity haven't indicated that I'll find it there.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

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I don't understand how the concept of "meaning" isn't an infinite regression. In other words, once you find a meaning, what is the meaning of that meaning? It just never ends. It's easier for me to accept nihilism and  that "meaning" is an entirely subjective interpretation of reality. You don't need meaning to experience pleasure and joy. What is the meaning of Beethoven's 9th symphony? What is the meaning of dancing or eating tasty food? They have no meaning outside of themselves, but that doesn't make them any less enjoyable......or does it?
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

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I always thought this short little video did a good job of summing up the concept of "meaning"

http://youtu.be/6I2pcIbyq-0
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by screwtape »

Mountaineer wrote:
madbean2 wrote:
Mountaineer wrote: A comment on your Genesis 1 quandry that may help solve the mystery of light:  John 8:12 Again Jesus spoke to them, saying, “I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will not walk in darkness, but will have the light of life.”  Second clue, you may wish to do a Scripture search of the term "I am" and see where all it is located and what it means.
It's not my quandary. It's Genesis 1's quandary.

I've noticed that you have an interesting way of dealing with Biblical problems. When a literal reading is problematic, just turn into a spiritual meaning. Problem solved.

3 And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. 4 God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light “day,” and the darkness he called “night.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day.

So that light was the spiritual light of Jesus on the first day is what you are saying? And that allowed the vegetation to grow on the third day before the sun was created on the fourth day?
Are you interested in presenting your better case?  Or just taking shots from the sidelines?  I actually think I could learn from you if you would contribute positively.

... Mountaineer
The computer simulation hypothesis, on its face, probably sounds no more or less absurd than the Genesis 3 talking snake story of the fall of man.

It does have the advantage of being testable however....

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2012/12 ... 82745.html

And as I said, the big problem with the Genesis 3 model is that it has the encumbrance of Genesis 1 preceding it. I've read many attempts to reconcile the creation account with science and they all fall flat in my book. I believe Genesis was meant to be taken literally and that it accurately represents ancient primitive beliefs about creation despite many attempts to explain it away. So I think it's really asking a lot to claim that Genesis 3 is an accurate explanation for the human condition after it totally botches the beginning of the story.

I don't know if that was a shot from the sidelines or not but all I have time for right now.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Mountaineer »

madbean2 wrote:
Mountaineer wrote:
madbean2 wrote: It's not my quandary. It's Genesis 1's quandary.

I've noticed that you have an interesting way of dealing with Biblical problems. When a literal reading is problematic, just turn into a spiritual meaning. Problem solved.

3 And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. 4 God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light “day,” and the darkness he called “night.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day.

So that light was the spiritual light of Jesus on the first day is what you are saying? And that allowed the vegetation to grow on the third day before the sun was created on the fourth day?
Are you interested in presenting your better case?  Or just taking shots from the sidelines?  I actually think I could learn from you if you would contribute positively.

... Mountaineer
The computer simulation hypothesis, on its face, probably sounds no more or less absurd than the Genesis 3 talking snake story of the fall of man.

It does have the advantage of being testable however....

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2012/12 ... 82745.html

And as I said, the big problem with the Genesis 3 model is that it has the encumbrance of Genesis 1 preceding it. I've read many attempts to reconcile the creation account with science and they all fall flat in my book. I believe Genesis was meant to be taken literally and that it accurately represents ancient primitive beliefs about creation despite many attempts to explain it away. So I think it's really asking a lot to claim that Genesis 3 is an accurate explanation for the human condition after it totally botches the beginning of the story.

I don't know if that was a shot from the sidelines or not but all I have time for right now.
Thanks for the response.  That was an interesting article - I had not heard that particular hypothesis before (other than watching the Matrix trilogy).  Lots of assumptions and lots of could statements (but I did not read the original text, just the HufPost summary).  To me, it seems much weirder than an talking (or telepathic?) evil serpent tempting Eve and would require even more faith; even weirder than God who creates something from nothing by speaking, God who creates life by his breath, God who comes to us today in Word with bread, wine, and water.  Has anything been published in the last couple of years as followup to the story?  If so, I'd like to read it.  I'm am still interested in your better case whenever you might have more time.  Thanks again.

... Mountaineer
Put not your trust in princes, in a son of man, in whom there is no help. Psalm 146:3
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

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madbean2 wrote: And as I said, the big problem with the Genesis 3 model is that it has the encumbrance of Genesis 1 preceding it. I've read many attempts to reconcile the creation account with science and they all fall flat in my book. I believe Genesis was meant to be taken literally and that it accurately represents ancient primitive beliefs about creation despite many attempts to explain it away. So I think it's really asking a lot to claim that Genesis 3 is an accurate explanation for the human condition after it totally botches the beginning of the story.
http://www.halexandria.org/dward179.htm wrote:The Epic of Creation is the Sumerian version of how the world began and includes to some degree the formation of the other members of the solar system.  The Sumerian tale is also likely the source of the earliest chapters of the Bible’s Genesis -- the latter which might be considered to be an Executive Summary of the original.  Their similarities are highlighted in Comparative Religions (among other places), but the fact that Genesis was written during the Hebrews’ captivity in Babylon, c. 600 B.C.E. (where access to the Babylonian version of the Epic was readily available) is undoubtedly important. 

The Sumerian Epic of Creation and Genesis both have the interesting feature of being scientifically accurate in terms of what was created first.  In creating a world, you begin with energy (light), form the planet itself, divide the land from the water, grow grass, herbs, fruit (in that order), initiate day/night and seasons, create fish, fowl, cattle, creeping thing and beasts of the earth (again, in that order), until finally you create man.  Then you get really clever and create woman.  Okay, so it’s not all perfect! 

But there is also the distinction between the cosmic creation and the earthly ones.  In the Genesis version, the heavens were created separate from the Earth (by the means of a firmament), while the Sun and Moon were specifically mentioned as “two great lights”.  In the Sumerian version -- which is decidedly less ego-earth-centric -- all of the other planets may be considered to have been described in various stages of grouping themselves into the current arrangement.  It’s just that their names were often attributed to gods, instead of gods and planets! 

The Annals of Earth provide much of the detail of the Epic of Creation (Episode One and/or Episode Two), along with comments on what the various phrases might actually mean.  That is to say, the alternative more speculative version of their meaning.  The idea is to translate mythology into scientifically plausible events, without being confined to the reigning paradigm wherein the ancients could not possibly have known anything! 

The full text of the Epic of Creation (aka the Enuma Elish -- the title being the first words of the ancient text) are located at: <http://www.sacred-texts.com/ane/enuma.htm> with a second website  located at <http://wch.utep.edu/Wrenjohnson/WCH3301 ... eation.htm> (but with virtually no difference in its presentation of the epic). 

Both websites are excellent, but the sacred-texts website is part of a much larger website <http://www.sacred-texts.com/ane/index.htm> which includes numerous sacred texts of the ancient Near East, including: 

                        The Enuma Elish (The Epic of Creation)

                        Adapa and the food of Life

                        Descent of the Goddess Ishtar into the Lower World

                                    (aka Descent into the Underworld)

                        The Seven Evil Spirits

                        The Code of Hammurabi

                        The Babylonian Story of the Deluge and the Epic of Gilgamesh

                        The Religion Of Babylonia And Assyria (by Theophilus G. Pinches)

                        Legends of Babylonia and Egypt (by Leonard W. King)

Another website <http://saturn.sron.nl/~jheise/akkadian/enuma1_expl.html> is the traditional, mainstream way of interpreting the Epic; essentially, “Subsubsection of John Heise's 'Akkadian language', Chap. 3 (cuneiform texts) about the Babylonian Creation Epic, cuneiform text given, literary style, first primeval beings, explanation of the first few lines, etc.”  John Heise does a credible, scholarly job of discussing the Enuma Elish, e.g. Enuma is translated as When, and Elish as High, i.e. “When in the Height, Heaven was not named...”  However, this is not the interpretation that this website advocates.

Instead of assuming that we’re talking about mythological gods without a factual or real basis, the assumption here is that the so-called “gods and goddesses” within the Epic are descriptions of both the major players in our Solar System (Sun, Moon, Earth and the other planets) and the “gods” who are closely identified with these heavenly bodies. 

The case of the planets being named is well presented by Zecharia Sitchin in his book, The 12th Planet.  Sitchin makes it clear that the planetary description aspect of the Epic is justified, and that the planets and Gods were closely linked. 

This is extremely important in the Sumerian version of Creation -- and probably why the Genesis version is shorter.  One assumes, for example, that the Hebrew writers of Genesis (circa 600 B.C.E.) would not want multiple gods in their story, and furthermore would not want to limit its supreme deity to any one celestial body.  Cut all the allusions to planets, and you don’t have as much to write about.  There was also undoubtedly a strong inclination not to add anything to the creation story -- a potentially blasphemy.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

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doodle wrote: I don't understand how the concept of "meaning" isn't an infinite regression. In other words, once you find a meaning, what is the meaning of that meaning? It just never ends. It's easier for me to accept nihilism and  that "meaning" is an entirely subjective interpretation of reality. You don't need meaning to experience pleasure and joy. What is the meaning of Beethoven's 9th symphony? What is the meaning of dancing or eating tasty food? They have no meaning outside of themselves, but that doesn't make them any less enjoyable......or does it?
Self-created meaning can only ever be make believe; behind it is always the knowledge that this only matters because I have arbitrarily decided it matters. In fact, there can logically be no responsibility to create one's own meaning; whence would such responsibility derive?  In the absence of any source for such a responsibility, there is no meaning but permission to pretend there is as long as you apply it only to yourself. That is to say, self-created meaning is simply meaninglessness+delusion.

... Mountaineer
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

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Mountaineer wrote:
doodle wrote: I don't understand how the concept of "meaning" isn't an infinite regression. In other words, once you find a meaning, what is the meaning of that meaning? It just never ends. It's easier for me to accept nihilism and  that "meaning" is an entirely subjective interpretation of reality. You don't need meaning to experience pleasure and joy. What is the meaning of Beethoven's 9th symphony? What is the meaning of dancing or eating tasty food? They have no meaning outside of themselves, but that doesn't make them any less enjoyable......or does it?
Self-created meaning can only ever be make believe; behind it is always the knowledge that this only matters because I have arbitrarily decided it matters. In fact, there can logically be no responsibility to create one's own meaning; whence would such responsibility derive?  In the absence of any source for such a responsibility, there is no meaning but permission to pretend there is as long as you apply it only to yourself. That is to say, self-created meaning is simply meaninglessness+delusion.

... Mountaineer
Im not following what you are trying to say. Meaning is a man made concept. It is in all cases a delusion in so far as I cant see any objective argument for it, but so what? What meaning or purpose does God have? Or heaven? What is the meaning or purpose of eternity? Or taken to the end, what is the meaning of meaning or the purpose of purpose?

Why do you feel the need to give things a meaning or purpose? What is wrong with just experiencing something and not having to assign any deeper purpose to it?
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by screwtape »

Mountaineer wrote: Has anything been published in the last couple of years as followup to the story?  If so, I'd like to read it.  I'm am still interested in your better case whenever you might have more time.  Thanks again.
I haven't been keeping up with it to tell you the truth. I just know it was an actual scientific theory proposed by a physicist based on his studies in Quantum Mechanics. A lot of people initially thought it was silly, of course, but then a lot of people once thought Quantum Mechanics was silly (even Einstein who made some of the initial discoveries). I only discovered today that it had been taken serious enough to actually put it to the test.

Been reading more about early Church history than science lately where I have a better grasp of the subject matter.

But back to the simulated universe, maybe it's all about finding people with programming skills so they can do more simulations. Those who show they have the skills are saved and go on to the next life and the rest go into the bit bucket.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

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Mountaineer wrote:
doodle wrote: I don't understand how the concept of "meaning" isn't an infinite regression. In other words, once you find a meaning, what is the meaning of that meaning? It just never ends. It's easier for me to accept nihilism and  that "meaning" is an entirely subjective interpretation of reality. You don't need meaning to experience pleasure and joy. What is the meaning of Beethoven's 9th symphony? What is the meaning of dancing or eating tasty food? They have no meaning outside of themselves, but that doesn't make them any less enjoyable......or does it?
Self-created meaning can only ever be make believe; behind it is always the knowledge that this only matters because I have arbitrarily decided it matters. In fact, there can logically be no responsibility to create one's own meaning; whence would such responsibility derive?  In the absence of any source for such a responsibility, there is no meaning but permission to pretend there is as long as you apply it only to yourself. That is to say, self-created meaning is simply meaninglessness+delusion.

... Mountaineer
I think that it's very hard to say whether a particular bit of meaning is self-created or store bought.

In a sense, all meaning is self-created in that our brains are constantly assembling reality in a way that we can comprehend.

For anyone who has ever taken a hallucinogenic drug, it is often surprising to find just how fragile our window to the world is and how easily it can be distorted or broken.  One of the purposes of that window to the world is to allow meaning to enter and coagulate in our consciousness, but the idea of a bit of meaning being self-created vs. ready made would probably make no sense whatsoever to a person who six hours ago realized that if a tree falls in the forest and no one hears it, it is simply because they aren't listening.  I don't know that you can ever really nail down the source of meaning in any kind of meaningful way.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

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madbean2 wrote:
Mountaineer wrote: Has anything been published in the last couple of years as followup to the story?  If so, I'd like to read it.  I'm am still interested in your better case whenever you might have more time.  Thanks again.
I haven't been keeping up with it to tell you the truth. I just know it was an actual scientific theory proposed by a physicist based on his studies in Quantum Mechanics. A lot of people initially thought it was silly, of course, but then a lot of people once thought Quantum Mechanics was silly (even Einstein who made some of the initial discoveries). I only discovered today that it had been taken serious enough to actually put it to the test.

Been reading more about early Church history than science lately where I have a better grasp of the subject matter.

But back to the simulated universe, maybe it's all about finding people with programming skills so they can do more simulations. Those who show they have the skills are saved and go on to the next life and the rest go into the bit bucket.
What is the difference between bits of information and the atomic particles that constitute everything around us? What is the difference between the simulation programmer and a God? Both the simulation hypothesis and the Christian story of  creation coupled with our basic scientific understanding of matter and reality seem to be completely compatible.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by screwtape »

Yes, I read a book not long ago called "You can't understand the Bible because you're a Christian" and it talked about the creation accounts that the Bible has borrowed from, some of which are in your post below. That author said we should read these exactly the way they would have been understood by those they were intended for, which meant to be taken literally. Apologists work hard at trying to make it into some kind of special divine revelation when in reality it is nothing more than ancient, primitive beliefs.

And another fascinating piece of information in that book had to do with the verse in Genesis 2 where it said no shrub or plant had yet appeared on the earth because the Lord God hadn't caused it to rain, but only a mist went up from the ground to water the earth. Well, why wasn't the mist good enough to make the plants grow? The answer was in the true meaning of the verse that would have been understood by those who heard it. The ancients believed in a sky God who was male and an earth God who was female. The Hebrew word for "rain" is the same as the Hebrew word for "semen". So what that verse really says is the female God was wet and ready but the male God hadn't done the deed yet.

Fascinating stuff. More fascinating than the Christian interpretations actually.
MachineGhost wrote:
madbean2 wrote: And as I said, the big problem with the Genesis 3 model is that it has the encumbrance of Genesis 1 preceding it. I've read many attempts to reconcile the creation account with science and they all fall flat in my book. I believe Genesis was meant to be taken literally and that it accurately represents ancient primitive beliefs about creation despite many attempts to explain it away. So I think it's really asking a lot to claim that Genesis 3 is an accurate explanation for the human condition after it totally botches the beginning of the story.
http://www.halexandria.org/dward179.htm wrote:The Epic of Creation is the Sumerian version of how the world began and includes to some degree the formation of the other members of the solar system.  The Sumerian tale is also likely the source of the earliest chapters of the Bible’s Genesis -- the latter which might be considered to be an Executive Summary of the original.  Their similarities are highlighted in Comparative Religions (among other places), but the fact that Genesis was written during the Hebrews’ captivity in Babylon, c. 600 B.C.E. (where access to the Babylonian version of the Epic was readily available) is undoubtedly important. 

The Sumerian Epic of Creation and Genesis both have the interesting feature of being scientifically accurate in terms of what was created first.  In creating a world, you begin with energy (light), form the planet itself, divide the land from the water, grow grass, herbs, fruit (in that order), initiate day/night and seasons, create fish, fowl, cattle, creeping thing and beasts of the earth (again, in that order), until finally you create man.  Then you get really clever and create woman.  Okay, so it’s not all perfect! 

But there is also the distinction between the cosmic creation and the earthly ones.  In the Genesis version, the heavens were created separate from the Earth (by the means of a firmament), while the Sun and Moon were specifically mentioned as “two great lights”.  In the Sumerian version -- which is decidedly less ego-earth-centric -- all of the other planets may be considered to have been described in various stages of grouping themselves into the current arrangement.  It’s just that their names were often attributed to gods, instead of gods and planets! 

The Annals of Earth provide much of the detail of the Epic of Creation (Episode One and/or Episode Two), along with comments on what the various phrases might actually mean.  That is to say, the alternative more speculative version of their meaning.  The idea is to translate mythology into scientifically plausible events, without being confined to the reigning paradigm wherein the ancients could not possibly have known anything! 

The full text of the Epic of Creation (aka the Enuma Elish -- the title being the first words of the ancient text) are located at: <http://www.sacred-texts.com/ane/enuma.htm> with a second website  located at <http://wch.utep.edu/Wrenjohnson/WCH3301 ... eation.htm> (but with virtually no difference in its presentation of the epic). 

Both websites are excellent, but the sacred-texts website is part of a much larger website <http://www.sacred-texts.com/ane/index.htm> which includes numerous sacred texts of the ancient Near East, including: 

                        The Enuma Elish (The Epic of Creation)

                        Adapa and the food of Life

                        Descent of the Goddess Ishtar into the Lower World

                                    (aka Descent into the Underworld)

                        The Seven Evil Spirits

                        The Code of Hammurabi

                        The Babylonian Story of the Deluge and the Epic of Gilgamesh

                        The Religion Of Babylonia And Assyria (by Theophilus G. Pinches)

                        Legends of Babylonia and Egypt (by Leonard W. King)

Another website <http://saturn.sron.nl/~jheise/akkadian/enuma1_expl.html> is the traditional, mainstream way of interpreting the Epic; essentially, “Subsubsection of John Heise's 'Akkadian language', Chap. 3 (cuneiform texts) about the Babylonian Creation Epic, cuneiform text given, literary style, first primeval beings, explanation of the first few lines, etc.”  John Heise does a credible, scholarly job of discussing the Enuma Elish, e.g. Enuma is translated as When, and Elish as High, i.e. “When in the Height, Heaven was not named...”  However, this is not the interpretation that this website advocates.

Instead of assuming that we’re talking about mythological gods without a factual or real basis, the assumption here is that the so-called “gods and goddesses” within the Epic are descriptions of both the major players in our Solar System (Sun, Moon, Earth and the other planets) and the “gods” who are closely identified with these heavenly bodies. 

The case of the planets being named is well presented by Zecharia Sitchin in his book, The 12th Planet.  Sitchin makes it clear that the planetary description aspect of the Epic is justified, and that the planets and Gods were closely linked. 

This is extremely important in the Sumerian version of Creation -- and probably why the Genesis version is shorter.  One assumes, for example, that the Hebrew writers of Genesis (circa 600 B.C.E.) would not want multiple gods in their story, and furthermore would not want to limit its supreme deity to any one celestial body.  Cut all the allusions to planets, and you don’t have as much to write about.  There was also undoubtedly a strong inclination not to add anything to the creation story -- a potentially blasphemy.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by doodle »

MediumTex wrote:
Mountaineer wrote:
doodle wrote: I don't understand how the concept of "meaning" isn't an infinite regression. In other words, once you find a meaning, what is the meaning of that meaning? It just never ends. It's easier for me to accept nihilism and  that "meaning" is an entirely subjective interpretation of reality. You don't need meaning to experience pleasure and joy. What is the meaning of Beethoven's 9th symphony? What is the meaning of dancing or eating tasty food? They have no meaning outside of themselves, but that doesn't make them any less enjoyable......or does it?
Self-created meaning can only ever be make believe; behind it is always the knowledge that this only matters because I have arbitrarily decided it matters. In fact, there can logically be no responsibility to create one's own meaning; whence would such responsibility derive?  In the absence of any source for such a responsibility, there is no meaning but permission to pretend there is as long as you apply it only to yourself. That is to say, self-created meaning is simply meaninglessness+delusion.

... Mountaineer
I think that it's very hard to say whether a particular bit of meaning is self-created or store bought.

In a sense, all meaning is self-created in that our brains are constantly assembling reality in a way that we can comprehend.

For anyone who has ever taken a hallucinogenic drug, it is often surprising to find just how fragile our window to the world is and how easily it can be distorted or broken.  One of the purposes of that window to the world is to allow meaning to enter and coagulate in our consciousness, but the idea of a bit of meaning being self-created vs. ready made would probably make no sense whatsoever to a person who six hours ago realized that if a tree falls in the forest and no one hears it, it is simply because they aren't listening.  I don't know that you can ever really nail down the source of meaning in any kind of meaningful way.
Did the universe have meaning before humans appeared on the scene?
All of humanity's problems stem from man's inability to sit quietly in a room alone. - Blaise Pascal
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

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madbean2 wrote:
Mountaineer wrote: Has anything been published in the last couple of years as followup to the story?  If so, I'd like to read it.  I'm am still interested in your better case whenever you might have more time.  Thanks again.
I haven't been keeping up with it to tell you the truth. I just know it was an actual scientific theory proposed by a physicist based on his studies in Quantum Mechanics. A lot of people initially thought it was silly, of course, but then a lot of people once thought Quantum Mechanics was silly (even Einstein who made some of the initial discoveries). I only discovered today that it had been taken serious enough to actually put it to the test.

Been reading more about early Church history than science lately where I have a better grasp of the subject matter.

But back to the simulated universe, maybe it's all about finding people with programming skills so they can do more simulations. Those who show they have the skills are saved and go on to the next life and the rest go into the bit bucket.
Sounds good to me. I wonder what language they use? Probably not C++, unfortunately, but I'm pretty good with massively parallel computing, so long as it is GPU-like. :P
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

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madbean2 wrote: Yes, I read a book not long ago called "You can't understand the Bible because you're a Christian" and it talked about the creation accounts that the Bible has borrowed from, some of which are in your post below. That author said we should read these exactly the way they would have been understood by those they were intended for, which meant to be taken literally. Apologists work hard at trying to make it into some kind of special divine revelation when in reality it is nothing more than ancient, primitive beliefs.
And I like to make the argument that these sacred source origin texts are the true Word of God, and not the Holy Bible.  What do you think of that?
"All generous minds have a horror of what are commonly called 'Facts'. They are the brute beasts of the intellectual domain." -- Thomas Hobbes

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Re: Figuring Out Religion

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doodle wrote: Did the universe have meaning before humans appeared on the scene?
Only to the universe!
"All generous minds have a horror of what are commonly called 'Facts'. They are the brute beasts of the intellectual domain." -- Thomas Hobbes

Disclaimer: I am not a broker, dealer, investment advisor, physician, theologian or prophet.  I should not be considered as legally permitted to render such advice!
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by screwtape »

MachineGhost wrote: And I like to make the argument that these sacred source origin texts are the true Word of God, and not the Holy Bible.  What do you think of that?
That the Bible draws upon other sources seems indisputable to me.

I have it on my radar to read up on the influence of Zoroastrianism when I can find a good book.

But are you saying you actually believe there is a true "Word of God"?
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Mountaineer »

doodle wrote:
Mountaineer wrote:
doodle wrote: I don't understand how the concept of "meaning" isn't an infinite regression. In other words, once you find a meaning, what is the meaning of that meaning? It just never ends. It's easier for me to accept nihilism and  that "meaning" is an entirely subjective interpretation of reality. You don't need meaning to experience pleasure and joy. What is the meaning of Beethoven's 9th symphony? What is the meaning of dancing or eating tasty food? They have no meaning outside of themselves, but that doesn't make them any less enjoyable......or does it?
Self-created meaning can only ever be make believe; behind it is always the knowledge that this only matters because I have arbitrarily decided it matters. In fact, there can logically be no responsibility to create one's own meaning; whence would such responsibility derive?  In the absence of any source for such a responsibility, there is no meaning but permission to pretend there is as long as you apply it only to yourself. That is to say, self-created meaning is simply meaninglessness+delusion.

... Mountaineer
Im not following what you are trying to say. Meaning is a man made concept. It is in all cases a delusion in so far as I cant see any objective argument for it, but so what? What meaning or purpose does God have? Or heaven? What is the meaning or purpose of eternity? Or taken to the end, what is the meaning of meaning or the purpose of purpose?

Why do you feel the need to give things a meaning or purpose? What is wrong with just experiencing something and not having to assign any deeper purpose to it?
First of all, nothing is wrong with just enjoying something; I know a whole lot of people like that.  The way my mind works, however, is to try to understand everything, and I mean everything - not necessarily all the time, or at the moment it first enters my consciousness, but I eventually try; many things I can understand and many I finally conclude are too complex for my skill set - but I still try initially.  And, maybe there are some things that I don't try to understand the meaning of, but I can't think of them right at the moment.  [example: I look outside my window and see a tree.  I enjoy the view.  But at the same time I marvel at the fractal design of the tree and its leaves.  I wonder why it is like that.  I wonder why a tree and not a bush.  I wonder why it is green.  Science establishes much.  But then I start wondering what is the meaning of a tree, why do they exist, do they communicate, if so with who or what, where did the first tree come from.  And so on.  Weird, I admit.  I may search the web, I may not.  I still wonder either way.  Sometimes for a second or two, sometimes for a long time - e.g. likely my fascination with Christianity - the more I understand, the more I realize I don't know and I keep digging.  I think Christianity is bottomless, at least in my lifetime so, like Pointedstick's experience, I will never become bored like I have with other pursuits such as the one he mentions and became bored with.]  Point of the rather convoluted paragraph was to say real meaning and perhaps purpose can only come from a source external to self whether examining a rock or Jesus or people or a cheeseburger - maybe my conclusion is wrong - I'd be interested if (and of course why) you see it differently.  Maybe I'm over analyzing "stuff", but as I think I said in some earlier post, I have been trying to understand how and why things work for as long as I can remember.  :)

... Mountaineer 
Put not your trust in princes, in a son of man, in whom there is no help. Psalm 146:3
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