MediumTex wrote:
Mountaineer wrote:
Re. whether homosexuality is genetic or a choice or culturally imposed does not matter in the least. It is sin. And, if I were born with a 60 IQ, I had no control over that, or being born without arms or legs, etc. All is broken. All is a result of sin - some actual 'we caused it sin' and some by original sin. Either way, we are all screwed, if not for Jesus. All sin is detested by God, regardless of the cause. As I said, creation is broken. Turn on the TV, read the news, .... we are broken and in need of a Savior that we are unable to provide on our own. Of course, you or someone else on the forum may have a better case or explanation - if so, present it please. Let's test it.
... Mountaineer
It sounds like you're saying that almost everything humans do is sinful.
If that's true, then I'm more perplexed than ever that we are the work of a God who hates sin so much that he can't even look at it without the filter of his son's bloody death shroud.
Do you see how little sense it makes that the people created by a perfect God who cannot cope with sin would somehow find their entire existence saturated with sin?
If what you say about sin is true, then the nature of God IMHO cannot be that he is 100% righteous. If our existence is saturated with sin, our Creator's existence must also have some tinge of sin as well that he may just want us to overlook out of fear.
***
To me, sin is the state of mind we experience when we deal with a situation as if we were animals rather than people. When I am dealing with someone who seems anchored in clear thinking rather than animalistic impulse, though, I don't feel weighed down by sin in the least.
Clear thinking opens the door to mutually profitable exchanges, and mutually profitable exchanges discourage animalistic behavior as people come to understand that the only way to get the things they value is to give things that other people value.
We are all sinners. God will save us ---- believers. Perhaps, where I'm different than some, I believe all the Scriptures, even those I don't care for, even those I don't understand, even those that sound repulsive. I believe the problem of incomplete understanding of some of the Scriptures lies with me, I am not the type of person to play the victim and blame it on someone else, especially one who has the the power to squash me and the power to give me everything I have ever needed (not wanted). I defer to the God who is more powerful than me, more intelligent than me, and loves me in spite of all my flaws and did what it took to save me from sinful self.
... Mountaineer
Isaiah 64:6
6
We have all become like one who is unclean,
and all our righteous deeds are like a polluted garment.
We all fade like a leaf,
and our iniquities, like the wind, take us away.
Zechariah 3:3-5
3 Now Joshua was standing before the angel,
clothed with filthy garments. 4 And the angel said to those who were standing before him, “Remove the filthy garments from him.” And to him he said, “Behold,
I have taken your iniquity away from you, and I will clothe you with pure vestments.” 5 And I said, “Let them put a clean turban on his head.” So they put a clean turban on his head and clothed him with garments. And the angel of the Lord was standing by.
Romans 3
No One Is Righteous
9 What then? Are we Jews any better off? No, not at all. For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin, 10 as it is written:
“
None is righteous, no, not one;
11 no one understands;
no one seeks for God.
12 All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
no one does good,
not even one.”
13 “Their throat is an open grave;
they use their tongues to deceive.”
“The venom of asps is under their lips.”
14 “Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness.”
15 “Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16 in their paths are ruin and misery,
17 and the way of peace they have not known.”
18 “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”
19 Now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God. 20 For
by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.
Romans 5
5 Therefore, since
we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. 2 Through him we have also obtained access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in hope of the glory of God. 3 Not only that, but we rejoice in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance, 4 and endurance produces character, and character produces hope, 5 and hope does not put us to shame, because God's love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us. 6 For while we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. 7 For one will scarcely die for a righteous person—though perhaps for a good person one would dare even to die— 8 but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God. 10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life. 11 More than that, we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation. 12 Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men[e] because all sinned— 13 for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law. 14 Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come. 15 But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man's trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many. 16 And the free gift is not like the result of that one man's sin. For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brought justification. 17 For if, because of one man's trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ.
18
Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men. 19 For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous. 20 Now the law came in to increase the trespass, but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, 21 so that, as sin reigned in death, grace also might reign through righteousness leading to
eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
