Figuring Out Religion

[MediumTex]

You can ask if you like.  Just don't expect to find the answer in the Scriptures, thus the answer is likely not from a God/Christian based source.  Do do do do do do - SATAN, get thee behing me!  Did you read the Althaus material I posted above?

... Mountaineer

My point is, you are willing to avoid asking those kinds of questions because you believe there is no earthly means of finding an answer. That's no different from what agnostics or atheists do when they refrain from asking questions like, "why are we here?" or "where does morality come from?" or "why are humans capable of evil?" You earlier expressed disbelief that people could  function without answers to these sorts of questions that they consider to be unanswerable, yet are now admitting that you have unanswerable questions of your own that you are perfectly capable of function without having answers to.

Actually, I have all the answers I need for eternal life, the means to obtain them are clearly specified - I just do not have all the answers I want.  I am content with there being mysteries, especially when I'm told don't peek under that veil, it is for your own good.  I think I'm not at all like the agnostics or atheists; I trust in the answers God provides, they don't.  I expressed, or at least tried to express, disbelief that people could function without answers that would provide them eternal life not in hell.  Big difference, at least to me.

... Mountaineer

The underlined language above makes perfect sense to me.  It's the child who senses the truth about Santa Claus and realizes what he will need to do to keep his desired mental framework intact.

[Greg]

I'd also say, that I "think" I have an open mind, and I've asked hundreds or thousands of questions trying to poke holes, so as I've said before, just make a better case than Christianity - I'm all ears.  I have not heard one yet, but who knows.  With God all things are possible.

Here's the thing.  Your so-called "open mind" is actually only open towards all things Christianity, either pro or con.  You've completely written off the multitude of other possibilities to explain reality.  So to those of us moderate non-believers, you appear to be suffering from extreme tunnel vision.  You're too close to a little patch of trees that are all Christian in nature to see the entire cosmic forest.

I think this is an improper way to paint Mountaineer (although he can defend himself). Are you saying that it isn't possible for someone to read up on a bunch of religions, and then based on cursory knowledge believing Christianity is correct and then diving deeper into it? As we grow older and learn more, we realize there is so much that we don't know and can't possibly know/learn within the time-frame we have on earth.

I realize this is very Pascal-wager-esk but sometimes after you evaluate all of cars on the lot and figure out their pros and cons, it is nice to make a decision to drive off the lot in one of the cars.

[MediumTex]

HOMOSEXUALS

Can someone tell me about God and homosexuals?

The Bible is unambiguous in its message that God doesn't like gay people, and yet I have repeatedly tried to get some discussion going about this topic, and no one wants to participate.

Why not?

If I felt as Mountaineer and Greg feel, I would feel guilty if I wasn't out there spreading the anti-gay message every chance I got.

This forum reaches people all over the world who are probably influential in their families and communities, and you can say pretty much whatever you want here.  I would take every opportunity to remind anyone who would listen that the #1 problem facing the world today is homosexuality.  I would put in my signature line: "When Jesus returns, the gays aren't going to like it because they are evil and they are all going to Hell."

In my church, I listen for the pastor to speak the truth about homosexuality, but he never does.  No pastor seems to be doing it much anymore.  Why not?

Being gay isn't like being black.  God never specifically said that he hated black people, but he said repeatedly that he hated gay people and felt that death was a fair price to pay for being gay.

Can anyone help me understand what's going on here with Christianity and homosexuality?

[MachineGhost]

I think this is an improper way to paint Mountaineer (although he can defend himself). Are you saying that it isn't possible for someone to read up on a bunch of religions, and then based on cursory knowledge believing Christianity is correct and then diving deeper into it? As we grow older and learn more, we realize there is so much that we don't know and can't possibly know/learn within the time-frame we have on earth.

I'm only going by his public statements.  But I suppose you could say that.  If you choose a religion based on "cursory knowledge", that isn't a very high standard of evidence in excusing yourself for being closed minded.  But, surely you shouldn't make such an important and life-changing decision that involves your entire multiverseview so cheaply?  In my experience, religious believers really don't examine everything available to them broadly and widely; they just pick the general category that reasonates with them emotionally and then they delve down into that one deeply.  Very rarely will they ever backtrack, but if they do, its typically to atheism (which I think is more of an emotional knee jerk reaction, but I digress).

I understand this kind of topic is likely why there are always so many religious wars...  so don't shoot the messenger!  I'm not here to say "My God is better then your God!", only that if you close yourself off to other possibilities, don't be an arrogant prick about it or expect to get a lot of heat.

And I have no doubt Mountaineer is a really nice guy compared to the more cultish Christian denominations (JW, 7th, Mormons, etc.) or -- Lord Have Mercy! -- a RIFFF.  I hope to NEVER meet one of those unless its to shoot them.

[Mountaineer]

HOMOSEXUALS

Can someone tell me about God and homosexuals?

The Bible is unambiguous in its message that God doesn't like gay people, and yet I have repeatedly tried to get some discussion going about this topic, and no one wants to participate.

Why not?

If I felt as Mountaineer and Greg feel, I would feel guilty if I wasn't out there spreading the anti-gay message every chance I got.

This forum reaches people all over the world who are probably influential in their families and communities, and you can say pretty much whatever you want here.  I would take every opportunity to remind anyone who would listen that the #1 problem facing the world today is homosexuality.  I would put in my signature line: "When Jesus returns, the gays aren't going to like it because they are evil and they are all going to Hell."

In my church, I listen for the pastor to speak the truth about homosexuality, but he never does.  No pastor seems to be doing it much anymore.  Why not?

Being gay isn't like being black.  God never specifically said that he hated black people, but he said repeatedly that he hated gay people and felt that death was a fair price to pay for being gay.

Can anyone help me understand what's going on here with Christianity and homosexuality?

I'll make it simple.  Creation is broken.  All of it.  God says homosexuality is sin.  God says murder is sin.  God says disrespect of father and mother is sin.  God says not putting him numero uno is sin.  God says adultry is sin.  Then Jesus even goes further and says looking at a woman lustfully is sin.  And so forth.  Bottom line.  We are everyone of us sinners deserving of punishment.  Why do I care if someone has a different flavor of sin that I do - we are all doomed, unless, of course we repent and try not to do that again.  But we fail even at that.  Even repentance is a gift from God.  The ultimate consequence of sin is death.  Thanks be to God that Jesus came to take all sin, from all time to the grave with him and defeat death.    All who believe in the promises are saved.  So, why should I be so concerned about homosexuals any more than one who lies?  What is the big deal?  Homosexuality is not THE deal breaker - THE deal breaker is unbelief.  Unrepentant homosexuality, or unrepentant lying, or unrepentant murdering, or not helping your neighbor in need, or being unrepentant about telling your parents to piss off, or telling God to piss off,  or celebrating those who sin are all problems and we all do some of them.  I don't personally see homosexuality as much different than any other sin.  Why would I be out there spreading an anti-gay message when that is only a tiny part of what everyone does in some fashion to sin - that to me would be very hypocritical.  Do you see it differently, and if so, why?

... Mountaineer

[Mountaineer]

I think this is an improper way to paint Mountaineer (although he can defend himself). Are you saying that it isn't possible for someone to read up on a bunch of religions, and then based on cursory knowledge believing Christianity is correct and then diving deeper into it? As we grow older and learn more, we realize there is so much that we don't know and can't possibly know/learn within the time-frame we have on earth.

I'm only going by his public statements.  But I suppose you could say that.  If you choose a religion based on "cursory knowledge", that isn't a very high standard of evidence in excusing yourself for being closed minded.  But, surely you shouldn't make such an important and life-changing decision that involves your entire multiverseview so cheaply?  In my experience, religious believers really don't examine everything available to them broadly and widely; they just pick the general category that reasonates with them emotionally and then they delve down into that one deeply.  Very rarely will they ever backtrack, but if they do, its typically to atheism (which I think is more of an emotional knee jerk reaction, but I digress).

I understand this kind of topic is likely why there are always so many religious wars...  so don't shoot the messenger!  I'm not here to say "My God is better then your God!", only that if you close yourself off to other possibilities, don't be an arrogant prick about it or expect to get a lot of heat.

And I have no doubt Mountaineer is a really nice guy compared to the more cultish Christian denominations (JW, 7th, Mormons, etc.) or -- Lord Have Mercy! -- a RIFFF.

I'm hesitant to ask, but what the heck is a RIFFF?  Stand by, I feel the nukes are poised and coming in soon! 

Secondly, for me, it was anything but cursory, and I'm not a very emotional guy.  Truth, baby, truth, the only way to go.  I guess my operating system (to quote MT) knows more places to get information than others - I value reason highly, it is a wonderful gift; I value experience highly, it is a wonderful but sometimes hard to take gift; I also value revealed knowledge highly, everyone does not.  Maybe that is why my CPU overheats in awe when it accesses the CPU creator. 

... Mountaineer

[Mountaineer]

I'd also say, that I "think" I have an open mind, and I've asked hundreds or thousands of questions trying to poke holes, so as I've said before, just make a better case than Christianity - I'm all ears.  I have not heard one yet, but who knows.  With God all things are possible.

Here's the thing.  Your so-called "open mind" is actually only open towards all things Christianity, either pro or con.  You've completely written off the multitude of other possibilities to explain reality.  So to those of us moderate non-believers, you appear to be suffering from extreme tunnel vision.  You're too close to a little patch of trees that are all Christian in nature to see the entire cosmic forest.

I think this is an improper way to paint Mountaineer (although he can defend himself). Are you saying that it isn't possible for someone to read up on a bunch of religions, and then based on cursory knowledge believing Christianity is correct and then diving deeper into it? As we grow older and learn more, we realize there is so much that we don't know and can't possibly know/learn within the time-frame we have on earth.

I realize this is very Pascal-wager-esk but sometimes after you evaluate all of cars on the lot and figure out their pros and cons, it is nice to make a decision to drive off the lot in one of the cars.

It is especially nice to have the car maker give you the inside scoop on which car is the best and comes with a lifetime warranty, for you, forever - then you can drive off the lot in full confidence that no matter how many breakdowns may have happened to that make and model, there is always an expert mechanic available to fix it in zero time, and it will usually be better than it was before the breakdown.   

... Mountaineer

[MediumTex]

So, why should I be so concerned about homosexuals any more than one who lies?  What is the big deal?  Homosexuality is not THE deal breaker - THE deal breaker is unbelief.  Unrepentant homosexuality, or unrepentant lying, or unrepentant murdering, or not helping your neighbor in need, or being unrepentant about telling your parents to piss off, or telling God to piss off,  or celebrating those who sin are all problems and we all do some of them.  I don't personally see homosexuality as much different than any other sin.  Why would I be out there spreading an anti-gay message when that is only a tiny part of what everyone does in some fashion to sin - that to me would be very hypocritical.  Do you see it differently, and if so, why?

My understanding of homosexuality is that a person has some wires crossed inside them that causes them to be sexually attracted to members of the same sex, rather than the opposite sex.

If you believe what gay people say about simply feeling a basic attraction to their own sex as a result of forces they have no control over, and you see that it's been this way for all of human history, on what basis are we lumping this in with lying and killing?  Is it possible that the Bible is just wrong about homosexuality being a sin?  Maybe there were cultural prejudices against homosexuality that simply got incorporated into the religious texts as well.  Is that possible?  It seems likely to me.

[Mountaineer]

So, why should I be so concerned about homosexuals any more than one who lies?  What is the big deal?  Homosexuality is not THE deal breaker - THE deal breaker is unbelief.  Unrepentant homosexuality, or unrepentant lying, or unrepentant murdering, or not helping your neighbor in need, or being unrepentant about telling your parents to piss off, or telling God to piss off,  or celebrating those who sin are all problems and we all do some of them.  I don't personally see homosexuality as much different than any other sin.  Why would I be out there spreading an anti-gay message when that is only a tiny part of what everyone does in some fashion to sin - that to me would be very hypocritical.  Do you see it differently, and if so, why?

My understanding of homosexuality is that a person has some wires crossed inside them that causes them to be sexually attracted to members of the same sex, rather than the opposite sex.

If you believe what gay people say about simply feeling a basic attraction to their own sex as a result of forces they have no control over, and you see that it's been this way for all of human history, on what basis are we lumping this in with lying and killing?  Is it possible that the Bible is just wrong about homosexuality being a sin?  Maybe there were cultural prejudices against homosexuality that simply got incorporated into the religious texts as well.  Is that possible?  It seems likely to me.

Re. whether homosexuality is genetic or a choice or culturally imposed does not matter in the least.  It is sin.  And, if I were born with a 60 IQ, I had no control over that, or being born without arms or legs, etc.  All is broken.  All is a result of sin - some actual 'we caused it sin' and some by original sin.  Either way, we are all screwed, if not for Jesus.  All sin is detested by God, regardless of the cause.  As I said, creation is broken.  Turn on the TV, read the news, .... we are broken and in need of a Savior that we are unable to provide on our own.  Of course, you or someone else on the forum may have a better case or explanation - if so, present it please.  Let's test it.

... Mountaineer

[MediumTex]

I guess my operating system (to quote MT) knows more places to get information than others - I value reason highly, it is a wonderful gift; I value experience highly, it is a wonderful but sometimes hard to take gift; I also value revealed knowledge highly, everyone does not.  Maybe that is why my CPU overheats in awe when it accesses the CPU creator. 

... Mountaineer

It is fascinating to read your descriptions of how your mind reconciles your religious beliefs with the rationality that you need in other areas of your life.

I believe that you believe what you are saying, and it is amazing to me to be able to balance with apparent equanimity such seemingly irreconcilable ways of thinking about things.

I recognize the mental configuration that your posts hint at because I used to have something like that in my own mind, but the physics of life finally exposed the weaknesses.  I realized that I had to find a way to make my mind more coherent because the mental acrobatics were starting to create an emotional and psychological strain, and I have a hard time thinking lightly about really important things like immortality and the supernatural.

[Mountaineer]

I guess my operating system (to quote MT) knows more places to get information than others - I value reason highly, it is a wonderful gift; I value experience highly, it is a wonderful but sometimes hard to take gift; I also value revealed knowledge highly, everyone does not.  Maybe that is why my CPU overheats in awe when it accesses the CPU creator. 

... Mountaineer

It is fascinating to read your descriptions of how your mind reconciles your religious beliefs with the rationality that you need in other areas of your life.

I believe that you believe what you are saying, and it is amazing to me to be able to balance with apparent equanimity such seemingly irreconcilable ways of thinking about things.

I recognize the mental configuration that your posts hint at because I used to have something like that in my own mind, but the physics of life finally exposed the weaknesses.  I realized that I had to find a way to make my mind more coherent because the mental acrobatics were starting to create an emotional and psychological strain, and I have a hard time thinking lightly about really important things like immortality and the supernatural.

Illegitimi non carborundum

... Mountaineer

Edit:  I'm not saying that I never have nor ever will fall in a hole, maybe even a deep hole.  I am exceeding confident there is a lifeline tied securely around me that will drag me out of that hole, whether I'm capable of assisting or not.  Thanks be to God for sea, air, land rescue on this rock - and as Buzz Lightyear would say, even "to infinity and beyond". 

[MediumTex]

Re. whether homosexuality is genetic or a choice or culturally imposed does not matter in the least.  It is sin.  And, if I were born with a 60 IQ, I had no control over that, or being born without arms or legs, etc.  All is broken.  All is a result of sin - some actual 'we caused it sin' and some by original sin.  Either way, we are all screwed, if not for Jesus.  All sin is detested by God, regardless of the cause.  As I said, creation is broken.  Turn on the TV, read the news, .... we are broken and in need of a Savior that we are unable to provide on our own.  Of course, you or someone else on the forum may have a better case or explanation - if so, present it please.  Let's test it.

... Mountaineer

It sounds like you're saying that almost everything humans do is sinful.

If that's true, then I'm more perplexed than ever that we are the work of a God who hates sin so much that he can't even look at it without the filter of his son's bloody death shroud.

Do you see how little sense it makes that the people created by a perfect God who cannot cope with sin would somehow find their entire existence saturated with sin?

If what you say about sin is true, then the nature of God IMHO cannot be that he is 100% righteous.  If our existence is saturated with sin, our Creator's existence must also have some tinge of sin as well that he may just want us to overlook out of fear.

***

To me, sin is the state of mind we experience when we deal with a situation as if we were animals rather than people.  When I am dealing with someone who seems anchored in clear thinking rather than animalistic impulse, though, I don't feel weighed down by sin in the least.

Clear thinking opens the door to mutually profitable exchanges, and mutually profitable exchanges discourage animalistic behavior as people come to understand that the only way to get the things they value is to give things that other people value.

[Mountaineer]

Re. whether homosexuality is genetic or a choice or culturally imposed does not matter in the least.  It is sin.  And, if I were born with a 60 IQ, I had no control over that, or being born without arms or legs, etc.  All is broken.  All is a result of sin - some actual 'we caused it sin' and some by original sin.  Either way, we are all screwed, if not for Jesus.  All sin is detested by God, regardless of the cause.  As I said, creation is broken.  Turn on the TV, read the news, .... we are broken and in need of a Savior that we are unable to provide on our own.  Of course, you or someone else on the forum may have a better case or explanation - if so, present it please.  Let's test it.

... Mountaineer

It sounds like you're saying that almost everything humans do is sinful.

If that's true, then I'm more perplexed than ever that we are the work of a God who hates sin so much that he can't even look at it without the filter of his son's bloody death shroud.

Do you see how little sense it makes that the people created by a perfect God who cannot cope with sin would somehow find their entire existence saturated with sin?

If what you say about sin is true, then the nature of God IMHO cannot be that he is 100% righteous.  If our existence is saturated with sin, our Creator's existence must also have some tinge of sin as well that he may just want us to overlook out of fear.

***

To me, sin is the state of mind we experience when we deal with a situation as if we were animals rather than people.  When I am dealing with someone who seems anchored in clear thinking rather than animalistic impulse, though, I don't feel weighed down by sin in the least.

Clear thinking opens the door to mutually profitable exchanges, and mutually profitable exchanges discourage animalistic behavior as people come to understand that the only way to get the things they value is to give things that other people value.

We are all sinners.  God will save us ---- believers.  Perhaps, where I'm different than some, I believe all the Scriptures, even those I don't care for, even those I don't understand, even those that sound repulsive.  I believe the problem of incomplete understanding of some of the Scriptures lies with me, I am not the type of person to play the victim and blame it on someone else, especially one who has the the power to squash me and the power to give me everything I have ever needed (not wanted).  I defer to the God who is more powerful than me, more intelligent than me, and loves me in spite of all my flaws and did what it took to save me from sinful self.

... Mountaineer

Isaiah 64:6
6 We have all become like one who is unclean,
    and all our righteous deeds are like a polluted garment.
We all fade like a leaf,
    and our iniquities, like the wind, take us away.


Zechariah 3:3-5
3 Now Joshua was standing before the angel, clothed with filthy garments. 4 And the angel said to those who were standing before him, “Remove the filthy garments from him.” And to him he said, “Behold, I have taken your iniquity away from you, and I will clothe you with pure vestments.” 5 And I said, “Let them put a clean turban on his head.” So they put a clean turban on his head and clothed him with garments. And the angel of the Lord was standing by.

Romans 3
No One Is Righteous
9 What then? Are we Jews any better off? No, not at all. For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin, 10 as it is written:
“None is righteous, no, not one;
11    no one understands;
    no one seeks for God.
12 All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
    no one does good,
    not even one.”
13 “Their throat is an open grave;
    they use their tongues to deceive.”
“The venom of asps is under their lips.”
14    “Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness.”
15 “Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16    in their paths are ruin and misery,
17 and the way of peace they have not known.”
18    “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”
19 Now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God. 20 For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.

Romans 5
5 Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. 2 Through him we have also obtained access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in hope of the glory of God. 3 Not only that, but we rejoice in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance, 4 and endurance produces character, and character produces hope, 5 and hope does not put us to shame, because God's love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us.  6 For while we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. 7 For one will scarcely die for a righteous person—though perhaps for a good person one would dare even to die— 8 but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God. 10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life. 11 More than that, we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.  12 Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men[e] because all sinned— 13 for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law. 14 Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come.  15 But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man's trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many. 16 And the free gift is not like the result of that one man's sin. For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brought justification. 17 For if, because of one man's trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ.
18 Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men. 19 For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous. 20 Now the law came in to increase the trespass, but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, 21 so that, as sin reigned in death, grace also might reign through righteousness leading to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

[MediumTex]

I guess my operating system (to quote MT) knows more places to get information than others - I value reason highly, it is a wonderful gift; I value experience highly, it is a wonderful but sometimes hard to take gift; I also value revealed knowledge highly, everyone does not.  Maybe that is why my CPU overheats in awe when it accesses the CPU creator. 

... Mountaineer

It is fascinating to read your descriptions of how your mind reconciles your religious beliefs with the rationality that you need in other areas of your life.

I believe that you believe what you are saying, and it is amazing to me to be able to balance with apparent equanimity such seemingly irreconcilable ways of thinking about things.

I recognize the mental configuration that your posts hint at because I used to have something like that in my own mind, but the physics of life finally exposed the weaknesses.  I realized that I had to find a way to make my mind more coherent because the mental acrobatics were starting to create an emotional and psychological strain, and I have a hard time thinking lightly about really important things like immortality and the supernatural.

MT, can you say a bit more about the mental configuration that used to exist in your mind?  Was it a belief in Christianity, or something else?

Just standard Texas Baptist.

Here is a picture of the church I attend with my family.  It is a lovely place with some very nice people and they put on a great service most Sundays.



I used to sit there in the pew at this church and other churches I have attended and listen to the stories the pastor would weave together from the Bible and the way he would talk about the unseen world and I would find myself feeling guilty because it all seemed very farfetched and self-serving, and yet no one else seemed to notice so I just went along with it.

For about 15 years (through about age 35), I think that I was searching for someone who could perhaps explain it to me in a way that made more sense, but over that period I was surprised to find myself in many conversations with religious leaders of various stripes who would finally just say to me: "Look, I'm trying to make a living here.  Can you cut me some slack?"  It was like they were trying to tell me that what had happened was I had grown up and matured and I didn't like the adult perspective on my faith, which was true.  I liked the version I had been told as a child, and the version that I had been assured was true.

As my mind matured, I began to notice that there were a couple of differences between me and most people I spoke with about religion: (i) I was far more curious than they were about the inner workings of our faith, and (ii) I was able to easily see flaws in their reasoning that they often didn't seem to see at all, even when I pointed in out to them.  Things as simple as pointing out that the fact that the Bible says it's from God isn't proof that it's from God.  You can't cite a text in support of the truth of supernatural events that weren't recorded anywhere except in that text.

At some point, the conversations about religion with religious leaders began to feel kind of silly because my questions began to almost answer themselves.  Q: "How can you reconcile the OT God and the NT God?"  A: "You can't."  Q: "Why did the NT have a Heaven and Hell, but the OT didn't?"  A: "The Greeks needed an afterlife in a way that the Jews didn't, and Paul gave them what they wanted."  And so on.  More alarmingly, I began to realize that religious leaders do not like being sliced to pieces in religious discussions with laymen, but I was doing the only thing I knew to do because the answers I got were so ridiculous and unpersuasive, and I assumed that we were both searching for the same truth.  I didn't know how to pretend that something made sense to me when it didn't.

Finally, I realized I was wasting my time and probably needlessly weakening the faith of the religious leaders I was talking to, so I stopped having those discussions.  It was no longer worth the trouble, and I began to really hate the idea that I had become the person who was basically telling the kids about Santa Claus, even though I was only trying to get back into the Santa Claus world myself.

Having come to terms with the fact that my faith (and apparently most people's faith) was much flimsier than I had imagined when I was a kid, I approached the Bible with the idea of squeezing out the wisdom and leaving the rest, and that has worked pretty well for me as I realized that Jesus's message is just as powerful when you strip away all of the miracles.  Believe it or not, I have actually been a surprisingly effective advocate for Christianity by only asking a person to believe what they can prove for themselves, and only after they have proven the provable should they consider believing in the supernatural.  Think about it: If I claim something is provable and you can't prove it for yourself, why would you bother believing anything I told that wasn't provable?  It's much harder to do than conventional fear and guilt-oriented witnessing, but it's powerful.

One of the subtle byproducts of the witnessing style I am describing is that even if the person completely falls away from the faith at some point in the future, he still has in him whatever he was able to prove for himself as true through experience.  Thus, a person may no longer believe in a supernatural God or the miracles in the Bible, but he may still have internalized Jesus's teachings regarding the wisdom of kindness and patience toward self and others, and generosity toward all except bankers and narrow-minded church bureaucrats.

It's been an interesting ride, and I have been astonished at the number of other people who attend church who feel much the same way I do--i.e., on Sunday morning they try to pluck nuggests of wisdom and inspiration from the message, even though they have come to realize that most of the supernatural assumptions on which the church is premised are probably false.

I would also respectfully say that I think I could make the case for Christianity far more powerfully than anyone has on this thread so far.  Would you like to see me do it?  If Pointedstick will volunteer to let me try to convert him, I think that I can do it.  If he will agree to the exchange, I will convert him in another thread.

[Mountaineer]

It is fascinating to read your descriptions of how your mind reconciles your religious beliefs with the rationality that you need in other areas of your life.

I believe that you believe what you are saying, and it is amazing to me to be able to balance with apparent equanimity such seemingly irreconcilable ways of thinking about things.

I recognize the mental configuration that your posts hint at because I used to have something like that in my own mind, but the physics of life finally exposed the weaknesses.  I realized that I had to find a way to make my mind more coherent because the mental acrobatics were starting to create an emotional and psychological strain, and I have a hard time thinking lightly about really important things like immortality and the supernatural.

MT, can you say a bit more about the mental configuration that used to exist in your mind?  Was it a belief in Christianity, or something else?

Just standard Texas Baptist.

Here is a picture of the church I attend with my family.  It is a lovely place with some very nice people and they put on a great service most Sundays.



I used to sit there in the pew at this church and other churches I have attended and listen to the stories the pastor would weave together from the Bible and the way he would talk about the unseen world and I would find myself feeling guilty because it all seemed very farfetched and self-serving, and yet no one else seemed to notice so I just went along with it.

For about 15 years (through about age 35), I think that I was searching for someone who could perhaps explain it to me in a way that made more sense, but over that period I was surprised to find myself in many conversations with religious leaders of various stripes who would finally just say to me: "Look, I'm trying to make a living here.  Can you cut me some slack?"  It was like they were trying to tell me that what had happened was I had grown up and matured and I didn't like the adult perspective on my faith, which was true.  I liked the version I had been told as a child, and the version that I had been assured was true.

As my mind matured, I began to notice that there were a couple of differences between me and most people I spoke with about religion: (i) I was far more curious than they were about the inner workings of our faith, and (ii) I was able to easily see flaws in their reasoning that they often didn't seem to see at all, even when I pointed in out to them.  Things as simple as pointing out that the fact that the Bible says it's from God isn't proof that it's from God.  You can't cite a text in support of the truth of supernatural events that weren't recorded anywhere except in that text.

At some point, the conversations about religion with religious leaders began to feel kind of silly because my questions began to almost answer themselves.  Q: "How can you reconcile the OT God and the NT God?"  A: "You can't."  Q: "Why did the NT have a Heaven and Hell, but the OT didn't?"  A: "The Greeks needed an afterlife in a way that the Jews didn't, and Paul gave them what they wanted."  And so on.  More alarmingly, I began to realize that religious leaders do not like being sliced to pieces in religious discussions with laymen, but I was doing the only thing I knew to do because the answers I got were so ridiculous and unpersuasive, and I assumed that we were both searching for the same truth.  I didn't know how to pretend that something made sense to me when it didn't.

Finally, I realized I was wasting my time and probably needlessly weakening the faith of the religious leaders I was talking to, so I stopped having those discussions.  It was no longer worth the trouble, and I began to really hate the idea that I had become the person who was basically telling the kids about Santa Claus, even though I was only trying to get back into the Santa Claus world myself.

Having come to terms with the fact that my faith (and apparently most people's faith) was much flimsier than I had imagined when I was a kid, I approached the Bible with the idea of squeezing out the wisdom and leaving the rest, and that has worked pretty well for me as I realized that Jesus's message is just as powerful when you strip away all of the miracles.  Believe it or not, I have actually been a surprisingly effective advocate for Christianity by only asking a person to believe what they can prove for themselves, and only after they have proven the provable should they consider believing in the supernatural.  Think about it: If I claim something is provable and you can't prove it for yourself, why would you bother believing anything I told that wasn't provable?  It's much harder to do than conventional fear and guilt-oriented witnessing, but it's powerful.

One of the subtle byproducts of the witnessing style I am describing is that even if the person completely falls away from the faith at some point in the future, he still has in him whatever he was able to prove for himself as true through experience.  Thus, a person may no longer believe in a supernatural God or the miracles in the Bible, but he may still have internalized Jesus's teachings regarding the wisdom of kindness and patience toward self and others, and generosity toward all except bankers and narrow-minded church bureaucrats.

It's been an interesting ride, and I have been astonished at the number of other people who attend church who feel much the same way I do--i.e., on Sunday morning they try to pluck nuggests of wisdom and inspiration from the message, even though they have come to realize that most of the supernatural assumptions on which the church is premised are probably false.

I would also respectfully say that I think I could make the case for Christianity far more powerfully than anyone has on this thread so far.  Would you like to see me do it?  If Pointedstick will volunteer to let me try to convert him, I think that I can do it.  If he will agree to the exchange, I will convert him in another thread.

Fascinating.  A few comments:

1. You need an LCMS Pastor discussion(s) (the traditional confessional stuff, not the happy clappy wanna be revenant to the culture types) to complete your exposure to other worldviews.  Who knows, you may do a big WOW!  Hard to describe but you might have interest in checking out the Lutheran confessional interpretation of Scripture, understanding why we have that interpretation and how we got there, and testing it.  FWIW, I can't imagine most LCMS Pastors basically blowing you off like yours did, but they are sinners too ... might happen.

2. You "might" enjoy listening to Chris Roseborough on Pirate Christian radio podcasts "Fighting for the Faith" where he typically critiques big box church Pastors and especially those of an Evangelistic decision based or seeker driven or vision casting bent - but he can get pretty far up on his high horse so you have to listen carefully for the meat and discard the other stuff which can get deep.

3. You won't convert Pointedstick - God will, but perhaps you are his tool.  This will be really, really interesting if PS consents - and if you are not coming from the dark side. 

4. I think (and that is not worth much of anything) you are far closer than you think.  God's gonna grab you by the you know whats so you better be prepared for a wild ride when the scales fall completely.  You are not in nearly as much of a dry spell as I was.  I could be wrong as I'm not the one calling the shots. 

... Mountaineer

[MediumTex]

Fascinating.  A few comments:

1. You need an LCMS Pastor discussion(s) (the traditional confessional stuff, not the happy clappy wanna be revenant to the culture types) to complete your exposure to other worldviews.  Who knows, you may do a big WOW!  Hard to describe but you might have interest in checking out the Lutheran confessional interpretation of Scripture, understanding why we have that interpretation and how we got there, and testing it.  FWIW, I can't imagine most LCMS Pastors basically blowing you off like yours did, but they are sinners too ... might happen.

I've been talking to you for months and thousands of posts.  I feel like I have spoken with someone from your church already.

2. You "might" enjoy listening to Chris Roseborough on Pirate Christian radio podcasts "Fighting for the Faith" where he typically critiques big box church Pastors and especially those of an Evangelistic decision based or seeker driven or vision casting bent - but he can get pretty far up on his high horse so you have to listen carefully for the meat and discard the other stuff which can get deep.

I don't know if I would enjoy that.  It sounds like he needs to both speak truth AND be entertaining, and it's hard to do both.  I also don't care for high horse riders.

3. You won't convert Pointedstick - God will, but perhaps you are his tool.  This will be really, really interesting if PS consents - and if you are not coming from the dark side. 

I only nominated him because we think in similar terms and he made it clear that he has tried in the past to believe in the Bible but it just never clicked, so I believe that his mind is honestly receptive.

4. I think (and that is not worth much of anything) you are far closer than you think.  God's gonna grab you by the you know whats so you better be prepared for a wild ride when the scales fall completely.  You are not in nearly as much of a dry spell as I was.  I could be wrong as I'm not the one calling the shots. 

... Mountaineer

Maybe God already grabbed me and that's why I started this thread in the first place.

And by the way, I want to say thanks again to you, Greg and others who have attempted to articulate and explain your beliefs.  I really enjoy the opportunity to have discussions like this one.

[Pointedstick]

I'm up for it! Let's see what happens. For the record, it's not just the Bible. I've also been interested in Buddhism, and my background is Judaism. All three of these religions seem interesting to me, and I feel like there's definitely wisdom in each when you strip away the old-school dogma and stuff that just doesn't check out scientifically.

[Mountaineer]

Buckle your seatbelts.  It may get interrrrrrrreeeeesssssttttttiiiiiinnnnggggggggg! 

... Mountaineer

[Mountaineer]

Fascinating.  A few comments:

1. You need an LCMS Pastor discussion(s) (the traditional confessional stuff, not the happy clappy wanna be revenant to the culture types) to complete your exposure to other worldviews.  Who knows, you may do a big WOW!  Hard to describe but you might have interest in checking out the Lutheran confessional interpretation of Scripture, understanding why we have that interpretation and how we got there, and testing it.  FWIW, I can't imagine most LCMS Pastors basically blowing you off like yours did, but they are sinners too ... might happen.

I've been talking to you for months and thousands of posts.  I feel like I have spoken with someone from your church already.

Yeah, but I'm just a poor miserable sinner.  An LCMS Pastor is a trained poor miserable sinner.  You will get the opportunity to discern if we are full of sound and fury, signifying nothing. 

... Mountaineer

[barrett]

MT, I have a question for you...

What has Christianity given you that you couldn't have learned from discussions about ethics over the years? I mean, don't most of the teachings of Jesus just have to do with just treating one another decently? Can't we figure this stuff out without religion?

Well, I guess that is three questions.

Thanks.

[MediumTex]

0I would also respectfully say that I think I could make the case for Christianity far more powerfully than anyone has on this thread so far.  Would you like to see me do it?  If Pointedstick will volunteer to let me try to convert him, I think that I can do it.  If he will agree to the exchange, I will convert him in another thread.

MT, thanks for that very interesting post.  I'm quoting just a portion here, because the rest deserves much more thought before posting.  But for now, I want to comment on the above quoted section.  First, I want to say that I agree that you can likely make a better argument for Christianity than the rest of us.  You're a skilled writer and lawyer.  You could also likely make a better argument to dump the barbarous gold-holding PP than all the Bogleheads put together.  If I needed a good attorney to represent me, I'd be begging for your services.  But if I want to understand truth, I'm afraid I would not consult you.

Would you be more likely to consult me if we shared the same beliefs? 

I know that sounds terribly rude, given that I'm a guest in your gyroscopic house here.  But I don't find your treatment of the available facts to be very complete or fair.

I'm disappointed to hear that.  When it comes to religion, I don't think that we have many "facts" to work with, but I hate to think that I come across as unfair.  If anything, I like to think that I am fair, but I may not be. 

So no, I'm not interested in a sideshow "conversion" of Pointedstick.

It's not a sideshow.  I really want to see if I can do it, and perhaps rekindle my own beliefs in the process. 

Sorry for the rude tone ... I tried to express myself as honestly as possible here, but I wouldn't blame you if you banned me!

It's cool.  We're all friends here. 

[MediumTex]

Buckle your seatbelts.  It may get interrrrrrrreeeeesssssttttttiiiiiinnnnggggggggg! 

... Mountaineer

I just want to have a slightly different discussion about religion where I am on the other side of the table.

I hope it's interesting, but I mainly want to sharpen my own understanding and maybe learn something new.

[Greg]

0I would also respectfully say that I think I could make the case for Christianity far more powerfully than anyone has on this thread so far.  Would you like to see me do it?  If Pointedstick will volunteer to let me try to convert him, I think that I can do it.  If he will agree to the exchange, I will convert him in another thread.

MT, thanks for that very interesting post.  I'm quoting just a portion here, because the rest deserves much more thought before posting.  But for now, I want to comment on the above quoted section.  First, I want to say that I agree that you can likely make a better argument for Christianity than the rest of us.  You're a skilled writer and lawyer.  You could also likely make a better argument to dump the barbarous gold-holding PP than all the Bogleheads put together.  If I needed a good attorney to represent me, I'd be begging for your services.  But if I want to understand truth, I'm afraid I would not consult you.  I know that sounds terribly rude, given that I'm a guest in your gyroscopic house here.  But I don't find your treatment of the available facts to be very complete or fair.  So no, I'm not interested in a sideshow "conversion" of Pointedstick.  Sorry for the rude tone ... I tried to express myself as honestly as possible here, but I wouldn't blame you if you banned me!

Who else was a good writer, lawyer, not a believer of Christianity, and was passionate about his beliefs? hmm... I feel like I remember reading about someone like that in a testament of some sort.

[MediumTex]

MT, I have a question for you...

What has Christianity given you that you couldn't have learned from discussions about ethics over the years? I mean, don't most of the teachings of Jesus just have to do with just treating one another decently? Can't we figure this stuff out without religion?

Well, I guess that is three questions.

Thanks.

I think that the question is whether there is a purpose to behaving according to a set of ethical standards, apart from the mutually beneficial exchanges that they promote.

I know that there are probably several college courses worth of material in that question, but I think that it boils down to whether there are any reasons apart from the practical reasons for behaving according to a set of ethical standards, and there may be.  For example, let's say that if someone you cared about and respected asked you to do something to help them you would, but if a stranger asked you to do the same thing you might not.  Why the difference?  There is clearly more than the acceptance of an ethical code at work there.  Whether you do what you believe is right may be influenced by who is asking you to do it, and that opens the door to exploring what kind of identities put you in an ethical behavior mood, and what kind of identities put you out of the mood.

Clearly, we can learn about ethics without religion.  The question is whether we can learn MORE about ethics or our approach to ethics through religion.  I don't have an answer, but that's the frontier that I see when you're thinking about ethics and religion.

[screwtape]

Come on guys, surely you have a worldview.  I'm seriously having trouble understanding that you don't have an explanation that makes sense to you that explains the way things are; otherwise, you would not be able to critique the Christianity worldview. 

I find the theory that the universe is a computer simulation to be more plausible than your talking snake theory (aka, the Christian "worldview").

Your model begins with a creation account that is laughable in its scientific illiteracy. Whoever the author was didn't even know that the sun was the source of light. The sun doesn't come into the picture until the fourth day when it is revealed as one of two great lights along with the moon. The stars were created on the same day, after the sun and moon if you read it in sequence. The earth brought forth vegetation on the third day however, before the sun. Go figure.

So, if I am really looking for a plausible "worldview" why should I not stop at chapter 1 of this book?. If it can't get the creation story right, why should I believe the talking snake story that is revealed in chapter 3 as an explanation for why the world is the way it is?