Figuring Out Religion

[Mark Leavy]

God saw fit to enable, embolden, and empower one of the great lowlife losers in all of religious history--King David!

Aw... MT, don't disrespect David.  He's one of my role models.  That man knew how to run an empire.

When he got his throne back - he told everyone that all was forgiven.
But on his deathbed, he told his son to make sure and even the balance sheet.

1 Kings 2:6
So act according to your wisdom, and do not let his gray hair go down to Sheol in peace.

1st Kings is even better than watching the godfather trilogy every weekend.

[Mark Leavy]

More badass David.

1 Samuel 25

David: So... say Nabal, I hear it is sheep shearing time for you.  It would be a shame if anything was to happen to your flock or men or women or children.  But heh!  It's a festival!  Howse about you send a little bit my way?  You know, for old time's sake.

Nabal: WTF?  These are my sheep and - hey - I've been working for a few years to grow this flock and shear them.  Get out of my yard.

Abigail:  Ummmm... this might not be the best answer Nabal.  How about I secretly go and give him a lot of stuff so that he doesn't kill us all.  And then... you know... I kind of like bad guys...

[MediumTex]

More badass David.

1 Samuel 25

David: So... say Nabal, I hear it is sheep shearing time for you.  It would be a shame if anything was to happen to your flock or men or women or children.  But heh!  It's a festival!  Howse about you send a little bit my way?  You know, for old time's sake.

Nabal: WTF?  These are my sheep and - hey - I've been working for a few years to grow this flock and shear them.  Get out of my yard.

Abigail:  Ummmm... this might not be the best answer Nabal.  How about I secretly go and give him a lot of stuff so that he doesn't kill us all.  And then... you know... I kind of like bad guys...

You got it.

Something tells me that the David and Bathsheba story was only included because it gives us the necessary background on Solomon's life, and what we are told is still probably a cleaned up version of what really happened.

Something tells me that there were probably countless Bathsheba-type stories involving David and his flavor of the week.  I suspect there were also countless victim's of David's scheming and butchering in his own court.  I'm imagining sort of a Jewish version of Kim Jong Il (Solomon would be Kim Jong Un).

***

Women love me.  Giants fear me.

[MediumTex]

Has anyone ever considered the idea that the God in the New Testament was a different God from the one in the Old Testament, and it is the New Testament God that is the true God and the Old Testament God was just a misinterpretation of the one true God by a poor backward tribe with a set of harsh and brutal cultural traditions?

Remember how much trouble Moses had keeping everyone in line?  Remember when he went camping with God in the mountains and came back down to find his people worshiping a cow statue?  We're talking about some really backward people here.  They could have simply badly misunderstood God because for whatever reason they wanted God to be this moody and sadistic father figure.

Jesus came to straighten things out, and guess what?  The tribe with the harsh and brutal cultural traditions conspired to have him murdered. 

[Mountaineer]

Yeah, it's an ongoing story of sin, mercy, more sin, justice, more sin, etc. 

The Sodom story is a pretty interesting one.  The dudes there were just real bastards.  And so was Lot, offering up his daughters.  Lots of bad people, some attempts by Abraham to negotiate a pardon, followed by the eventual justice.  You're right, PS, it is harsh. 

One thing I think I'm finally starting to learn from the painful stories of the OT is the horrid seriousness of sin.  That's not a message that is acceptable in our culture.  Our culture is a product of the 1960's in so many ways.  We have adopted a morality that isn't compatible with punishment we see in the OT.  And I'm a product of that same culture; so when I look at portions of the Bible, I must admit one of my frequent thoughts is something like "well, that's not the way I'd have drawn it up."  I think I understand your objections.  But you and I don't have the basis in justice that God has; we don't take it as seriously.  And we also don't love like God does.  It's a dichotomy that is very difficult to accept, for products of our present culture.

My objection isn't the actual stuff that God did. Lots of religions have brutal gods that kill people who displease them. It's common. My problem is with the frequent assertion that God loves us. I have never received an explanation that makes sense to me for how a God that loves his creations can, well, kill his creations, and very frequently and brutally.

How is this love?

John 3:16 - you seemed to focus only on the first half of the verse.  That is fine, but the complete verse talks about belief.  [For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son and whosoever believes in him shall not perish but have everlasting life.]  So, why does everyone get their knickers in such a twist when the God of wrath does what he says he will do?  He plainly tells us what the consequences of unbelief are, just as he tells us the consequences of belief.  What's the big deal?  If you tell your kid not to pet the cute little rattlesnake but he ignores you and does it anyway and is bitten, is it the snake's fault or the kid's? 

Actually, it is best to read the whole pericope containing John 3:16 so you get the context, and even better to read everything John wrote to get a fuller context, and even better yet to carefully read the whole Bible a few times including in its original languages, and even better yet to hear sermons and attend Bible studies - but on the other hand, many people are satisfied driving a bicycle and do not become NASCAR and Formula 1 qualified  . 

I have mentioned the hermaneutic of "Scripture interprets Scripture" before, but the whole hermeneutic has three parts:
1. Context, context, context (meaning who was speaking to whom about what, when, where, and why)
2. Clearer passages intrpret the less clear passages (i.e. if a thought is expressed many times and places in Scripture instead of in one obscure verse, pay attention - also anytime you see "thus saith the Lord", pay attention)
3. Scripture interprets Scripture (e.g. you might find something in the Book of Hebrews to address something in the First Testament).

... Mountaineer

[Mountaineer]

Yes!  You're right.  But that justice is to be meted out by God, not the drunk Dad.  And fortunately, there is forgiveness for those who repent. 

Basically, Christianity is the anti-religion.  Merit for those who deserve none.  No merit for those who the world sees as pillars of the community.  It's a scary thought, for pillars of the community.

Again with the great job selling me on Christianity!

I was serious about Christianity being offensive to many, not trying reverse psychology.  Desert said it best when he said Christainity was the anti-religion - repentant disgusting sinners being saved and pillars of the community having difficulty due to their pride etc.

... Mountaineer

[Mountaineer]

I think I'm going to return to the Bible after all and just follow the advice to "Eat, Drink, and be Merry, for tomorrow we die".

That sounds more like Shakespeare!

"There is nothing better for a man, than that he should eat and drink, and that he should make his soul enjoy good in his labour. This also I saw, that it was from the hand of God." Ecclesiastes 2:24

Ecclesiastes 1 English Standard Version (ESV)

All Is Vanity
1 The words of the Preacher, the son of David, king in Jerusalem.
2 Vanity of vanities, says the Preacher,
    vanity of vanities! All is vanity.
3 What does man gain by all the toil
    at which he toils under the sun?
4 A generation goes, and a generation comes,
    but the earth remains forever.
5 The sun rises, and the sun goes down,
    and hastens to the place where it rises.
6 The wind blows to the south
    and goes around to the north;
around and around goes the wind,
    and on its circuits the wind returns.
7 All streams run to the sea,
    but the sea is not full;
to the place where the streams flow,
    there they flow again.
8 All things are full of weariness;
    a man cannot utter it;
the eye is not satisfied with seeing,
    nor the ear filled with hearing.
9 What has been is what will be,
    and what has been done is what will be done,
    and there is nothing new under the sun.
10 Is there a thing of which it is said,
    “See, this is new”?
It has been already
    in the ages before us.
11 There is no remembrance of former things,
    nor will there be any remembrance
of later things yet to be
    among those who come after.

The Vanity of Wisdom
12 I the Preacher have been king over Israel in Jerusalem. 13 And I applied my heart to seek and to search out by wisdom all that is done under heaven. It is an unhappy business that God has given to the children of man to be busy with. 14 I have seen everything that is done under the sun, and behold, all is vanity and a striving after wind.
15 What is crooked cannot be made straight,
    and what is lacking cannot be counted.
16 I said in my heart, “I have acquired great wisdom, surpassing all who were over Jerusalem before me, and my heart has had great experience of wisdom and knowledge.” 17 And I applied my heart to know wisdom and to know madness and folly. I perceived that this also is but a striving after wind.
18 For in much wisdom is much vexation,
    and he who increases knowledge increases sorrow.

... Mountaineer

[doodle]

Yesterday was the 800th anniversary of the signing of the Magna Carta, which established the principle of the Rule of Law, to which even kings and other rulers are subject.  What often gets forgotten, as Eric Metaxas points out, is that the Magna Carta was a creation of the Christian church.

As the Bishops remind us, “The Church in England was central to the development of legal and human rights centuries before the French Revolution . . . the first parties to the charter were the bishops—led by Stephen Langton of Canterbury, who was a major drafter and mediator between the king and the barons; and its first and last clauses state that ‘the Church in England shall be free.’”

In other words, no human rights without religious freedom.

Perhaps the secular air-brushing isn’t that hard to understand, after all. The very words of the Magna Carta are a stumbling block for a culture that is eager to cast off its Christian heritage.

http://www.breakpoint.org/bpcommentaries/entry/13/27583

... Mountaineer

What other organization at the time was there that had enough clout to enact any social/political change?

[Mountaineer]

1. Has anyone ever considered the idea that the God in the New Testament was a different God from the one in the Old Testament, and it is the New Testament God that is the true God and the Old Testament God was just a misinterpretation of the one true God by a poor backward tribe with a set of harsh and brutal cultural traditions?

2. Remember how much trouble Moses had keeping everyone in line?  Remember when he went camping with God in the mountains and came back down to find his people worshiping a cow statue?  We're talking about some really backward people here.  They could have simply badly misunderstood God because for whatever reason they wanted God to be this moody and sadistic father figure.

3. Jesus came to straighten things out, and guess what?  The tribe with the harsh and brutal cultural traditions conspired to have him murdered.

1. Actually, yes, I have. Conclusion - same God.  Yours is a very common idea though, see comments earlier about the sweet, syrup drenched words of Osteen - very appealing to our self-centered me focused, lovey dovey loving culture.  Osteen has the largest church in the US, he is leading a large parade down a false path.  Osteen is like the flip side of Fallwell, if you are in to duality thinking. 

2. Yes, I do remember.  People are in rebellion towards God from the fall onward.  They naturally wish to depend on their sinful self to "do right in their own eyes".  Don't believe me?  Read this thread.

3. Jesus did straighten things out.  Re. the harsh and brutual cultural traditions - see 2.

... Mountaineer

[Mountaineer]

Yesterday was the 800th anniversary of the signing of the Magna Carta, which established the principle of the Rule of Law, to which even kings and other rulers are subject.  What often gets forgotten, as Eric Metaxas points out, is that the Magna Carta was a creation of the Christian church.

As the Bishops remind us, “The Church in England was central to the development of legal and human rights centuries before the French Revolution . . . the first parties to the charter were the bishops—led by Stephen Langton of Canterbury, who was a major drafter and mediator between the king and the barons; and its first and last clauses state that ‘the Church in England shall be free.’”

In other words, no human rights without religious freedom.

Perhaps the secular air-brushing isn’t that hard to understand, after all. The very words of the Magna Carta are a stumbling block for a culture that is eager to cast off its Christian heritage.

http://www.breakpoint.org/bpcommentaries/entry/13/27583

... Mountaineer

What other organization at the time was there that had enough clout to enact any social/political change?

The King with all his minions?

... Mountaineer

[Pointedstick]

John 3:16 - you seemed to focus only on the first half of the verse.  That is fine, but the complete verse talks about belief.  [For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son and whosoever believes in him shall not perish but have everlasting life.]  So, why does everyone get their knickers in such a twist when the God of wrath does what he says he will do?  He plainly tells us what the consequences of unbelief are, just as he tells us the consequences of belief.  What's the big deal?

Wrath? I thought we were talking about love. Isn't wrath one of the seven deadly sins? I thought God couldn't sin because he was perfect. Is this some kind of non-sin sin? I'm getting confused.

If you tell your kid not to pet the cute little rattlesnake but he ignores you and does it anyway and is bitten, is it the snake's fault or the kid's? 

What if I had the power to create the child with total control over its nature? Wouldn't it be easier to have simply created the child in such a manner that he or she didn't have the urge to pet rattlesnakes? If I decided not to do this, and my child wanted to pet rattlesnakes, is it really fair that I should get angry at my child for doing a thing I created him or her with an apparently very strong attraction for? If it really bothered me, why would I not have used my infinite power to alter the child to not want to pet rattlesnakes, or destroy him or her and create a new child not attracted to petting rattlesnakes?

[doodle]

Are we talking about the same freedom and human rights loving church that was ramping up the inquisition at around the same time?

[Mountaineer]

ATHEISTS KILLED 500,000 TIMES AS MANY PEOPLE AS THE SPANISH INQUISITION AND SALEM WITCH TRIALS, IN 1/20TH THE TIME!!!!

Regardless of the exact numbers as that sensational headline says, the point is people are by nature evil whether Christian or otherwise.  Simultaneously saint and sinner.  Perhaps it is only by the grace of God do we not kill all of us off.  Thanks be to God I have some of the righteousness imparted to me by Christ and am not a full blown evil person - only partly 


... Mountaineer

[Mountaineer]

John 3:16 - you seemed to focus only on the first half of the verse.  That is fine, but the complete verse talks about belief.  [For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son and whosoever believes in him shall not perish but have everlasting life.]  So, why does everyone get their knickers in such a twist when the God of wrath does what he says he will do?  He plainly tells us what the consequences of unbelief are, just as he tells us the consequences of belief.  What's the big deal?

Wrath? I thought we were talking about love. Isn't wrath one of the seven deadly sins? I thought God couldn't sin because he was perfect. Is this some kind of non-sin sin? I'm getting confused.

Think "just".

If you tell your kid not to pet the cute little rattlesnake but he ignores you and does it anyway and is bitten, is it the snake's fault or the kid's? 

What if I had the power to create the child with total control over its nature? Wouldn't it be easier to have simply created the child in such a manner that he or she didn't have the urge to pet rattlesnakes? If I decided not to do this, and my child wanted to pet rattlesnakes, is it really fair that I should get angry at my child for doing a thing I created him or her with an apparently very strong attraction for? If it really bothered me, why would I not have used my infinite power to alter the child to not want to pet rattlesnakes, or destroy him or her and create a new child not attracted to petting rattlesnakes?

So, you want to be a puppet, or your kid?  I do admit it would be far easier.  We could just become a nation/people of rocks.   

... Mountaineer

[doodle]

ATHEISTS KILLED 500,000 TIMES AS MANY PEOPLE AS THE SPANISH INQUISITION AND SALEM WITCH TRIALS, IN 1/20TH THE TIME!!!!

Regardless of the exact numbers as that sensational headline says, the point is people are by nature evil whether Christian or otherwise.  Simultaneously saint and sinner.  Perhaps it is only by the grace of God do we not kill all of us off.  Thanks be to God I have some of the righteousness imparted to me by Christ and am not a full blown evil person - only partly 


... Mountaineer

Well, your post on the Church's involvement in the Magna Carta seemed to suggest that you thought it should receive more credit as a progressive freedom loving organization which I was simply trying to point out is patently not true.

[moda0306]

ATHEISTS KILLED 500,000 TIMES AS MANY PEOPLE AS THE SPANISH INQUISITION AND SALEM WITCH TRIALS, IN 1/20TH THE TIME!!!!

Regardless of the exact numbers as that sensational headline says, the point is people are by nature evil whether Christian or otherwise.  Simultaneously saint and sinner.  Perhaps it is only by the grace of God do we not kill all of us off.  Thanks be to God I have some of the righteousness imparted to me by Christ and am not a full blown evil person - only partly 


... Mountaineer

Well I think the church of England and all the atheist genocidal maniacs can rest their conscious, as the pain and suffering that they have dolled out has paled in comparison to the billions now burning in hell for eternity because they weren't wise enough to pick Christianity.

[doodle]

ATHEISTS KILLED 500,000 TIMES AS MANY PEOPLE AS THE SPANISH INQUISITION AND SALEM WITCH TRIALS, IN 1/20TH THE TIME!!!!

Regardless of the exact numbers as that sensational headline says, the point is people are by nature evil whether Christian or otherwise.  Simultaneously saint and sinner.  Perhaps it is only by the grace of God do we not kill all of us off.  Thanks be to God I have some of the righteousness imparted to me by Christ and am not a full blown evil person - only partly 


... Mountaineer

Well I think the church of England and all the atheist genocidal maniacs can rest their conscious, as the pain and suffering that they have dolled out has paled in comparison to the billions now burning in hell for eternity because they weren't wise enough to pick Christianity.

good one

[moda0306]

ATHEISTS KILLED 500,000 TIMES AS MANY PEOPLE AS THE SPANISH INQUISITION AND SALEM WITCH TRIALS, IN 1/20TH THE TIME!!!!

Regardless of the exact numbers as that sensational headline says, the point is people are by nature evil whether Christian or otherwise.  Simultaneously saint and sinner.  Perhaps it is only by the grace of God do we not kill all of us off.  Thanks be to God I have some of the righteousness imparted to me by Christ and am not a full blown evil person - only partly 


... Mountaineer

Well I think the church of England and all the atheist genocidal maniacs can rest their conscious, as the pain and suffering that they have dolled out has paled in comparison to the billions now burning in hell for eternity because they weren't wise enough to pick Christianity.

good one

Well those little Buddhist kids that Mao had a hand in killing were doomed anyway.  He just increased their time in hell by an infinitely small percent.  BFD.

[MediumTex]

Regardless of the exact numbers as that sensational headline says, the point is people are by nature evil whether Christian or otherwise.  Simultaneously saint and sinner.  Perhaps it is only by the grace of God do we not kill all of us off.  Thanks be to God I have some of the righteousness imparted to me by Christ and am not a full blown evil person - only partly 

... Mountaineer

If God made us this way, why would he want to kill us all for acting in accordance with the way he designed us?

There is no real choice if we are simply acting according to our design.  If God created us and set up the evil/righteousness choice for us all to make, he has defined the parameters of our behavior.  We can only choose from the options he gave us.  For some reason, he set it up so that the thing he wants us to do will be less appealing than the thing he DOESN'T want us to do.  I don't understand that.  That's weird.

For me, it keeps pointing back to a God who has set up the game so that most people will lose and suffer for eternity.  I can't make any sense of that without concluding that the whole thing was made up by a group of people who didn't think the whole thing through very carefully.

Where is the love?  If I create 100 inferior creatures and 70 of them make the wrong choices in a rigged game and suffer for eternity, how can I say the whole thing was driven by love just because 30 of the 100 made it out of the maze intact?

[MediumTex]

Are we all in agreement that Joel Osteen is going to burn in Hell for eternity?

If so, that's a surprising development in this discussion that I would not have anticipated.

[MediumTex]

So, you want to be a puppet, or your kid?  I do admit it would be far easier.  We could just become a nation/people of rocks.   

... Mountaineer

If God is omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent and He made us, then of course we are puppets as far as He is concerned.  What could we possibly do that would surprise Him if every possible choice is a choice that He predefined for us when He made us?

[MediumTex]

If God created everything, that means he created sin.

If he hates sin, why did he create it?

If he can't look at sin, did he just close his eyes when he created it?

Rather than bothering to flood the whole world to send humanity a message, why not just make us so that we aren't programmed to do the things that might require the world to be flooded in the first place?

Does a rancher intentionally breed weak animals just so that he can make a big show out of watching the runts die and the crazy ones kill each other?  Of course not.  He breeds the best animals that he can.  Why would God do otherwise, especially when he already knows what will happen?

[Pointedstick]

My point is, every time I ask about the "God of love" thing, the subject always changes to why God's wrath is justified, or why free will demands sin, or something else that actually has nothing to do with the supposed love of God. Just more dodging the subject.

[MediumTex]

My point is, every time I ask about the "God of love" thing, the subject always changes to why God's wrath is justified, or why free will demands sin, or something else that actually has nothing to do with the supposed love of God. Just more dodging the subject.

I'm sure that those who are responding that way don't mean to dodge the subject. 

The thing is, once you decide you believe in something it becomes necessary to fit everything into that narrative, whether it fits exactly or not.  I'm sure that believers wouldn't describe it that way, but that is certainly how it appears.

To me, the best argument for why a person ought to believe in God (or anything for that matter) is simply because they like the way it makes them feel to believe.  It isn't necessary to say anything more, but people do because they want to feel comfortable about their beliefs, and thus they try to defend them and justify them.

I think that a person who tricks himself into believing a completely absurd set of ideas because it gives him peace of mind and joy is doing a perfectly rational thing and it sort of makes sense to me.  What I can't understand is trying to use logic, science, miracles, etc. to support those beliefs when there simply isn't any support to be found because the only reason the person believes it in the first place is that he like the way it makes him feel.

Here is an interesting idea to ponder: If God told all believers that He had decided that for the next 100 years they were all going to go to Hell for eternity as an act of sacrifice and love for Him, how do you think that would go over?  Do you think people would continue going to church?  If not, why not?  God wants to see His followers sacrifice for Him.  Why wouldn't they want to accommodate their Creator?

People want their religion to provide them with what they want, which is peace of mind and a credible case for immortality in paradise.  If their religion suddenly started doing something that they didn't want (like sending them to Hell as an act of sacrifice), then I don't think they would feel as strongly about it.

If someone were to say "Well, God wouldn't do that", I would say look at all of the other crazy things He did in the Old Testament, and tell me that guy wouldn't send believers to Hell for a century to make a point.  God asked parents to kill their babies to demonstrate their faith.  God killed Job's adult children to see how he would react.  God killed every single human on the planet except one family to make a point.  Sending innocent people to Hell for a few decades wouldn't surprise me at all.

[Greg]

Regardless of the exact numbers as that sensational headline says, the point is people are by nature evil whether Christian or otherwise.  Simultaneously saint and sinner.  Perhaps it is only by the grace of God do we not kill all of us off.  Thanks be to God I have some of the righteousness imparted to me by Christ and am not a full blown evil person - only partly 

... Mountaineer

If God made us this way, why would he want to kill us all for acting in accordance with the way he designed us?

There is no real choice if we are simply acting according to our design.  If God created us and set up the evil/righteousness choice for us all to make, he has defined the parameters of our behavior.  We can only choose from the options he gave us.  For some reason, he set it up so that the thing he wants us to do will be less appealing than the thing he DOESN'T want us to do.  I don't understand that.  That's weird.

For me, it keeps pointing back to a God who has set up the game so that most people will lose and suffer for eternity.  I can't make any sense of that without concluding that the whole thing was made up by a group of people who didn't think the whole thing through very carefully.

Where is the love?  If I create 100 inferior creatures and 70 of them make the wrong choices in a rigged game and suffer for eternity, how can I say the whole thing was driven by love just because 30 of the 100 made it out of the maze intact?

These aren't authoritative, just makes it easier for people to digest or to pick apart

1.) God knows all, and knows everything that will happen in the future
2.) Sin was created through freewill
3.) God knows every single person that will accept him and his son and go to heaven, based on humans freewill (which God knows)
4.) Many people will go to hell based on their freewill (which God knows)
5.) Humans do not know all/the future. Since they don't, they have a perceived freewill. Their actions however may be needed to cause reactions in others (i.e. someone sows seeds of Christianity in another because that is how God wanted that person to find God)
6.) God has some reason for sending some to hell while others go to heaven. We do not know why.
7.) God is saddened by those that disobey him, even though he knows they will (same as watching your favorite movie over and over again, you know the story already, but still enjoy watching it)
8.) Jesus watches this story over and over again on his superTV in his Dad's basement, Dad keeps telling him to get a job and that he hasn't worked in 2000 years.