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It's blind to you as yours is to mine! Should we do epic battle for the undecided minds in here?Mountaineer wrote: Whatever you say, Grasshopper. Time to get back to that blind spot you say you are happy with - but then, of course it would not be a blind spot if you can see it - would it?
MG, WOW! You REALLY have not understood, at least according to the above. From my perspective, what I've thought I said is about 175 degrees the other direction - you did catch enough to twist and leave some as is. Of course, I could be wrong and the words I read on my screen have been corrupted by the internet demons in transmission. I'm sorry for doing such a poor job of scattering seeds in your direction.MachineGhost wrote:No, I think we've all understood your posts in that we're flawed, sinners, evil, need to be masochists, have no personal power, are at whims of what some angry, mean, vengeful "Man in the Sky" decides to torment us with or not (earthquakes, tornadoes, hurricanes, dead babies, terrorism, disasters, etc.) until we kowtow, repent, do whatever is any and all necessary to buy his love and then we're destined for an everlasting afterlife by his side (and implying that is the bee's knees of an orgasm). Oh, and incidentally you have "free will" too while you're at it, sucker! Sorry, but its all just too puerile for my level of thinking skills.Mountaineer wrote: Obviously, you have not understood my posts. My bad? Your bad? More discussion? More reading? More open mindedness?
You can still do it. I have done the same with my mother, after the fact.madbean2 wrote:She died many years ago just before her 100th birthday and there was nothing to forgive.Mountaineer wrote: Have you forgiven your grandmother?
Nah, the battle has already been won, just like the game picture you posted. Cheers, have a Blue Moon to wash down the CoQ10 (or whatever it is today). This is probably snarky, but I am coming to understand why you are so fascinated with supplements - anything goes to prolong life on this screwed up planet if you think this is all there is. Peace bro!MachineGhost wrote:It's blind to you as yours is to mine! Should we do epic battle for the undecided minds in here?Mountaineer wrote: Whatever you say, Grasshopper. Time to get back to that blind spot you say you are happy with - but then, of course it would not be a blind spot if you can see it - would it?
Like I said, there is nothing to forgive. She bore me no malice in taking me to see a play about Job. Thought it would do me good, I'm sure. They do call it "The Good Book" don't they?Mountaineer wrote:You can still do it. I have done the same with my mother, after the fact.madbean2 wrote:She died many years ago just before her 100th birthday and there was nothing to forgive.Mountaineer wrote: Have you forgiven your grandmother?
... Mountaineer
Fantastic. You are a great grandson. I'm guessing she loved you and you her. Hope so.madbean2 wrote:Like I said, there is nothing to forgive. She bore me no malice in taking me to see a play about Job. Thought it would do me good, I'm sure. They do call it "The Good Book" don't they?Mountaineer wrote:You can still do it. I have done the same with my mother, after the fact.madbean2 wrote: She died many years ago just before her 100th birthday and there was nothing to forgive.
... Mountaineer
Did you try going to where God has promised to be? In the proclaimed Word, the Sacraments, the written Word? I can remember only one time when I prayed and asked specifically for something without going to where he promised to be (there may be others that I've forgotten) - I was getting a butt exam after anal fistulotomy surgery and I knew from prior experience it was really going to hurt. I prayed for calmness, trust in the doc, and God's peace. I got it. I could actually feel my blood pressure reduce and my heart rate drop while I was in the waiting room - and the exam went better than I ever expected. Weird.Pointedstick wrote:Yes. Nothing ever came of it. I gave up after a year or so. I felt funny doing it when I just wasn't receiving what others seemed to receive. I felt like I was talking to a wall.1NV35T0R (Greg) wrote: There's a good chance you're doing this already, but have you thought of talking to yourself, saying that you want God/the Creator/entity that was there that set off the start of big bang, etc. to start revealing himself more to you and asking for more wisdom on the subject?
I suppose it is possible but I have never heard of anybody ever being converted to Christianity by reading the Bible, especially in the modern age. I certainly wasn't. My experience was the same as yours. I read it and rejected it even though I grew up deeply exposed to it. It was only after I thought I had met the Christian God and knew I was supposed to accept what the Bible said that I began to see it differently.Pointedstick wrote: I have tried reading the Bible, but like I said before, I found it to be pretty brutal and offensive. I did not manage to see the love that many say is there. All I saw was violence and wrath.
Christianity by nature, and I expect by intent, is very offensive. Who wants to believe in a God that would take on human form instead of remaining high and mighty? Who wants to hear that they may be damned for all eternity? Who wants to believe "they" are not in charge? Who wants to hear their God was crucified and died? Who wants to hear "they" are sinners and not the other guy? Who wants to realize the symbolism of a cross? Who wants to believe that some criminal might be saved? Who wants to give up the role of judge and jury? Who wants to give up feeling superior to others? Who wants to have an unseen God? Who wants to have an unprovable God when they can depend on self? Who wants to believe self is flawed beyond saving by self? Yes indeed, very, very offensive. Not the Joel Osteen sweet syrup religion or the religion of self at all.madbean2 wrote:I suppose it is possible but I have never heard of anybody ever being converted to Christianity by reading the Bible, especially in the modern age. I certainly wasn't. My experience was the same as yours. I read it and rejected it even though I grew up deeply exposed to it. It was only after I thought I had met the Christian God and knew I was supposed to accept what the Bible said that I began to see it differently.Pointedstick wrote: I have tried reading the Bible, but like I said before, I found it to be pretty brutal and offensive. I did not manage to see the love that many say is there. All I saw was violence and wrath.
And I must say it does have a very interesting cast of characters and can give you goosebumps if you accept that you are reading the "Word of God" but after spending a good 20 years or so immersed in it I have to now agree with your assessment that it is a brutal and offensive book in many ways.
About two billion people on the planet by the latest count I've read.Mountaineer wrote: Christianity by nature, and I expect by intent, is very offensive. Who wants to believe in a God that would take on human form instead of remaining high and mighty? Who wants to hear that they may be damned for all eternity? Who wants to believe "they" are not in charge? Who wants to hear their God was crucified and died? Who wants to hear "they" are sinners and not the other guy? Who wants to realize the symbolism of a cross? Who wants to believe that some criminal might be saved? Who wants to give up the role of judge and jury? Who wants to give up feeling superior to others? Who wants to have an unseen God? Who wants to have an unprovable God when they can depend on self? Who wants to believe self is flawed beyond saving by self?
Hey, you want it to be, go for it. I guess that is two billion out of all the potential convertees, as I think there are only a couple of billion Christians out of 7 or 8.madbean2 wrote:About two billion people on the planet by the latest count I've read.Mountaineer wrote: Christianity by nature, and I expect by intent, is very offensive. Who wants to believe in a God that would take on human form instead of remaining high and mighty? Who wants to hear that they may be damned for all eternity? Who wants to believe "they" are not in charge? Who wants to hear their God was crucified and died? Who wants to hear "they" are sinners and not the other guy? Who wants to realize the symbolism of a cross? Who wants to believe that some criminal might be saved? Who wants to give up the role of judge and jury? Who wants to give up feeling superior to others? Who wants to have an unseen God? Who wants to have an unprovable God when they can depend on self? Who wants to believe self is flawed beyond saving by self?
Don't know if that qualifies as a snarky comment or not.
I think I'm going to return to the Bible after all and just follow the advice to "Eat, Drink, and be Merry, for tomorrow we die".MachineGhost wrote: There's a statin-iron connection. Details here: http://gyroscopicinvesting.com/forum/ot ... #msg122487
2 Billion was the latest figure I recall reading for the number of Christians in the world. Don't know how many of that figure you would consider to be true Christians on their way to heaven. I'm guessing a lot less but I could be wrong.Mountaineer wrote:Hey, you want it to be, go for it. I guess that is two billion out of all the potential convertees, as I think there are only a couple of billion Christians out of 7 or 8.madbean2 wrote:About two billion people on the planet by the latest count I've read.Mountaineer wrote: Christianity by nature, and I expect by intent, is very offensive. Who wants to believe in a God that would take on human form instead of remaining high and mighty? Who wants to hear that they may be damned for all eternity? Who wants to believe "they" are not in charge? Who wants to hear their God was crucified and died? Who wants to hear "they" are sinners and not the other guy? Who wants to realize the symbolism of a cross? Who wants to believe that some criminal might be saved? Who wants to give up the role of judge and jury? Who wants to give up feeling superior to others? Who wants to have an unseen God? Who wants to have an unprovable God when they can depend on self? Who wants to believe self is flawed beyond saving by self?
Don't know if that qualifies as a snarky comment or not.
... Mountaineer
That's why you need others to explain it to you! Thus, the previous (current?) Catholic pressure against actually reading the Bible...Pointedstick wrote: I have tried reading the Bible, but like I said before, I found it to be pretty brutal and offensive. I did not manage to see the love that many say is there. All I saw was violence and wrath.
You're really selling this, Mountaineer!Mountaineer wrote: Christianity by nature, and I expect by intent, is very offensive. Who wants to believe in a God that would take on human form instead of remaining high and mighty? Who wants to hear that they may be damned for all eternity? Who wants to believe "they" are not in charge? Who wants to hear their God was crucified and died? Who wants to hear "they" are sinners and not the other guy? Who wants to realize the symbolism of a cross? Who wants to believe that some criminal might be saved? Who wants to give up the role of judge and jury? Who wants to give up feeling superior to others? Who wants to have an unseen God? Who wants to have an unprovable God when they can depend on self? Who wants to believe self is flawed beyond saving by self? Yes indeed, very, very offensive. Not the Joel Osteen sweet syrup religion or the religion of self at all.
... Mountaineer
madbean2 wrote: Was reading a book not long ago by a Hebrew scholar who is like me, having once been a true believer, and he said he still thought it was the greatest piece of literature ever written, far surpassing the works of William Shakespeare.
Given the influence it has had in at least the Western world I find it hard to disagree with that.
He also believed that one of the authors who was heavily involved in the 5 books of Moses was probably a woman. A very interesting theory the way he presented it, I thought.
(For those familiar with the JEPD theory, (aren't you all), he thought J was a woman).
Yeah, but that is the historical-critical hermaneutic instead of the Scripture Interprets Scriptural hermeneutic. Who knows, even I was right once.
... Mountaineer
Admit it, everybody. This thread would have died long ago if it wasn't for Mountaineer.Desert wrote:
Sage advice. Except for the some of the last paragraphMediumTex wrote: Based upon the professed beliefs of everyone in this discussion, can we agree that all non-Christian religion is false religion?
If we can't agree on that, why can't we?
I always loved the line about how the difference between an atheist and a religious person is normally that an atheist believes that all gods are false, while the religious person believes that all gods but his own are false. Out of the many gods in all of human mythology, the atheist and the believer are only separated by a matter of belief in one god. In other words, look at all they have in common!!!
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One of recurring themes in this discussion has been whether it is worthwhile for the non-believer to take the risk of not believing, but for me this isn't the right way of framing the discussion. For me, I consider myself to be a believer in Jesus and his message to humanity, and I like to have discussions about religion to help make people realize that they may be focusing on the wrong things in their religious beliefs.
For example, note how this conversation has become preoccupied with our fate after we die, rather than being preoccupied with our fate while we live.
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Another matter I would like to comment on relates to "How did we get this way?" i would say that we got this way through the same process that every other living thing got to be the way it is--it's just a survival-oriented process of trial and error, aided by a lot of luck here and there.
Does that bother me? Why would it? It doesn't change who I am.
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If Jesus contributed to this thread, I think he would say that you guys worry too much and your intelligence is unwittingly creating a state of spiritual sepsis. I think that this would be his prescription for curing the spiritual infection:
* Walk outside and observe the sun and moon as they pass through the sky. Observe the way the trees move in the wind. Observe the way the animals live in harmony with their environment and how little they worry about death, even though their every action is designed to either avoid death for the individual or to avoid extinction for the species.
* Find a person who needs help and help them. If you like the way it makes you feel, try helping someone else.
* Learn to love and respect yourself more deeply. I do not mean to cultivate ego, but rather to simply develop a sense of gratitude for the gift of life and consciousness.
* When it is time for you to die, approach it with courage and equanimity. It is really no different than going to sleep, which you have done countless times. Whatever you do, though, don't become preoccupied with death because that is corrosive to your ability to feel gratitude for your life.
* Don't get too tangled up with your differences with other people. It only make life harder for everyone when you do this.
* The way you are thinking about Heaven and Hell is wrong. Heaven and Hell are real, but they are places you experience now, in this moment. It isn't something that happens to you when you die. Humanity's preoccupation with immortality has always been the worst kind of pride and arrogance masquerading as devout belief. Don't let that happen to you. I came to talk to people about what happens to them while they are living, not what happens to them when they die.
The interpretation of Christianity by many churches today is offensive to me, but I don't find anything in Jesus's message that offends me.Mountaineer wrote: Christianity by nature, and I expect by intent, is very offensive.
I'm fine with a God that can go and do whatever he wants.Who wants to believe in a God that would take on human form instead of remaining high and mighty?
Probably no one.Who wants to hear that they may be damned for all eternity?
In charge of what?Who wants to believe "they" are not in charge?
He didn't die. They tried to kill Him, but obviously that was impossible.Who wants to hear their God was crucified and died?
Everyone gives in to their animal natures from time to time. That's no revelation.Who wants to hear "they" are sinners and not the other guy?
Humans think in terms of symbols. We have a symbol for everything. I don't know why one more religious symbol would bother people.Who wants to realize the symbolism of a cross?
People can change. I can forgive people when they change.Who wants to believe that some criminal might be saved?
I don't think that there is any danger of this happening. The prison-industrial complex wouldn't take kindly to it.Who wants to give up the role of judge and jury?
I don't feel superior to anyone, though I do kind of feel bad when I see people who could have done more with their lives if they had had some of the opportunities that I have had.Who wants to give up feeling superior to others?
I'm okay with an unseen God. It's the same with radiation, wifi, and smells. I don't need to see them to believe in them.Who wants to have an unseen God?
We all depend on self, no matter what we tell ourselves. If an unprovable God gives a person a sense of wholeness in their lives, they believe in it because it helps them to maintain self-coherence.Who wants to have an unprovable God when they can depend on self?
Saving by self from what? From a peril that you first heard about from the guy who wants you to change your beliefs to match his?Who wants to believe self is flawed beyond saving by self?
I don't find it all that offensive, though parts of it don't make a lot of sense.Yes indeed, very, very offensive.
Do you think that Joel Osteen is going to Hell? If not, why not? I would think think that his annoying voice alone would be enough to get him in.Not the Joel Osteen sweet syrup religion or the religion of self at all.
Oh yeah, big thanks to Mountaineer. It's is a great discussion for sure.Desert wrote:+1, definitely.madbean2 wrote:Admit it, everybody. This thread would have died long ago if it wasn't for Mountaineer.Desert wrote:
I, for one, am enjoying it so keep up the good work Mountaineer. Even if I don't agree with a word you say I know you represent the beliefs of a lot of Christians.
I'm thinking my snark-o-meter should have gone off but the battery seems dead. Thank goodness my Spyderco Delica 4 is still functional, thanks to advice from MT.MediumTex wrote:Oh yeah, big thanks to Mountaineer. It's is a great discussion for sure.Desert wrote:+1, definitely.madbean2 wrote: Admit it, everybody. This thread would have died long ago if it wasn't for Mountaineer.
I, for one, am enjoying it so keep up the good work Mountaineer. Even if I don't agree with a word you say I know you represent the beliefs of a lot of Christians.
