Figuring Out Religion

[Mountaineer]

I agree with about 99% of what you say - I'm similar.  However, that one last % is a very big one in my opinion, and perhaps is that key you mention.  I am absolutely certain where I will end up after this life is finished - I just can't prove it to anyone with absolute certainty; it is a very individual thing.

And that's fine! There's nothing wrong with faith. What I think irritates people like me is when your faith tells you that there's some kind of cosmic horror in store for me because I don't share it. When I hear such a thing, and then hear that you can't even prove it, well, it sounds kind of insulting to me. If you acknowledge that faith is personal and unprovable, how can you justify to yourself judging me by a faith that I do not have? How can we possibly have a meaningful conversation when the very basis for the conversation is something you believe that I don't, and that neither of us can prove to the other? It's like two people who speak different languages trying to converse. It just doesn't work.

1. I'm sorry, please forgive me.

2. I'm not judging you from my perspective, honest!  I'll leave the judging to YHWH.

3. Sign language?  Art?  Music?  Point and utter?  Must be possible somehow, otherwise all those invaders would not have been able to learn how to communicate with the invadees.    Just kidding, kind of. 

... Mountaineer

[Mountaineer]

Sensitive question:  If you choose to answer, I'm curious as to why you only talk about "a wrathful God of vengeance".  Did something really traumatic happen in your past?  And if my question drags up unpleasant memories, please forgive me, that is not my intent.  I'm just trying to understand.

Yes, my mother spanked me for pooping my pants. Scarred me for life but the Blue Moon helps.

Actually, I'm lying about my mother spanking me for pooping my pants.

What she did do was send me on the Sunday School bus to church where I learned at a very young age that if you don't believe in Jesus you are going to hell. So yes, I did suffer an early trauma that I'm trying to get over.

I'm sorry.  However, I hope you were not lying about the Blue Moon and jerk chicken and somehow meant that only jerks eat chicken while you eat the real deal BBQ    Now, go look important and convince all those pagans to like Blue Moon and convert. 

... Mountaineer

[Pointedstick]

I forgive you, Mountaineer! It's really fine! I guess I'd just prefer that you keep that kind of thing to yourself. I get that in your worldview you're trying to save me from an awful fate, but the different ways we approach the world more or less mean that it's impossible for your perspective to make sense to me.

If I had an acquaintance who drank too much, I don't think it would be a good idea for me to talk to them about their behavior and encourage them to be more responsible. Though I would be meaning well, likely that would only insult them and make them want to be around me less. That kind of thing very rarely works.  Instead, I can disapprove of their drunkenness without actively trying to save them from themselves.

As we life our lives, we're constantly surrounded by people who are doing things we consider destructive or wrong or stupid or whatever. I find that I'm much less stressed out and unhappy when I try to let go of what other people are doing wrong from my perspective and just let them live their own lives. I'm actually really bad at this, and it's a struggle, I admit. But the more successful I get at it, the happier I feel and the more people seem to want to be around me. I guess nobody likes feeling judged.

[Pointedstick]

Then again, this is a thread about religion so I guess it's fair game. All I'm trying to say is that it's a bit off-putting to hear that in someone else's world view, I have an eternal soul that will be tortured forever because I don't believe the correct thing in this life.

[screwtape]

I'm sorry.  However, I hope you were not lying about the Blue Moon and jerk chicken and somehow meant that only jerks eat chicken while you eat the real deal BBQ    Now, go look important and convince all those pagans to like Blue Moon and convert. 

Speaking of the angry God, I often wonder why modern Christians are so bent on sugar-coating this aspect of what the God of the Bible is really like. If there is one thing those who wrote the Bible could agree on it was that God is very angry and men need to repent. That is the major theme of the Bible from the beginning of creation all the way through to the book of Revelations. "Consider this, you who forget God, or I will tear you to pieces, with no one to rescue you" (Psalm 50:22). Even Jesus said when referring to a tower that fell on some people and killed 18 of them, "Unless you repent you shall all likewise perish" (I think Desert mentioned somewhere below that Jesus wasn't the nice guy some people make him out to be and I completely agree).

I think the most honest preachers nowadays are the fire breathing street preachers though you don't see much of them any more. Today you hand out a tract that says "God loves you and has a wonderful plan for your life" (I don't know if they are still handing that tract out but I actually handed some out some myself when they are in vogue).

[Greg]

I'm sorry.  However, I hope you were not lying about the Blue Moon and jerk chicken and somehow meant that only jerks eat chicken while you eat the real deal BBQ    Now, go look important and convince all those pagans to like Blue Moon and convert. 

Speaking of the angry God, I often wonder why modern Christians are so bent on sugar-coating this aspect of what the God of the Bible is really like. If there is one thing those who wrote the Bible could agree on it was that God is very angry and men need to repent. That is the major theme of the Bible from the beginning of creation all the way through to the book of Revelations. "Consider this, you who forget God, or I will tear you to pieces, with no one to rescue you" (Psalm 50:22). Even Jesus said when referring to a tower that fell on some people and killed 18 of them, "Unless you repent you shall all likewise perish" (I think Desert mentioned somewhere below that Jesus wasn't the nice guy some people make him out to be and I completely agree).

I think the most honest preachers nowadays are the fire breathing street preachers though you don't see much of them any more. Today you hand out a tract that says "God loves you and has a wonderful plan for your life" (I don't know if they are still handing that tract out but I actually handed some out some myself when they are in vogue).

Catch more flies with honey than with vinegar. Like many things, you have to ease into it. If you hit someone in the face with a frying pan metaphorically, you're probably going to not get the response you want. But having a conversation overtime, this can build and understanding to make a good judgement based on available information.

Also God was wrathful in the beginning in my eyes to keep Israel's chosen people okay from being destroyed by everyone else around them. It was to be their land for Phase 1. Then after Jesus was born, that part of the plan was complete and he could withhold his wrath for a little whiles for Phase 2. During Revelations/Phase 3, he will become wrathful again to throw the Devil into the lake of fire, judgement period, etc. Tough love can look like wrath if looked at from a different perspective.

[MachineGhost]

Then again, maybe that's all a bit of stretch.

The Deluge actually happened in history, but of course its all just primitive superstitious mysticism as to ascribe an anthropomorphological "God" as the cause for it rather than an asteroid impact, ,magnetic poles switching, etc., just as the Greeks or Romans would later do.  When it comes to ancient religious texts, one must read them with "original intent" to get into the proper non-modern (non-scientific) perspective of the writers at the time.

[Greg]

I forgive you, Mountaineer! It's really fine! I guess I'd just prefer that you keep that kind of thing to yourself. I get that in your worldview you're trying to save me from an awful fate, but the different ways we approach the world more or less mean that it's impossible for your perspective to make sense to me.

If I had an acquaintance who drank too much, I don't think it would be a good idea for me to talk to them about their behavior and encourage them to be more responsible. Though I would be meaning well, likely that would only insult them and make them want to be around me less. That kind of thing very rarely works.  Instead, I can disapprove of their drunkenness without actively trying to save them from themselves.

As we life our lives, we're constantly surrounded by people who are doing things we consider destructive or wrong or stupid or whatever. I find that I'm much less stressed out and unhappy when I try to let go of what other people are doing wrong from my perspective and just let them live their own lives. I'm actually really bad at this, and it's a struggle, I admit. But the more successful I get at it, the happier I feel and the more people seem to want to be around me. I guess nobody likes feeling judged.

To piggyback on what Mountaineer said, all we can do is sow seeds. While I may believe that others go to hell (the end result of not wanting to have a relationship with God/Jesus), I realize I can't prove that. Because of this, I can only just tell you what I believe and then you have to make the final call on what you want to do.

Even if I could prove it however, I'd still just show you all of the facts that I have, and let you still make the decision based on what you know. That's where our freewill still comes in.

For me, it's not my job on earth to forceably convert people. I want to learn more about Christianity so that I can talk to others in case they are ever interested in having further conversations about it or questions about it. Other than that, it is still ultimately the choice of the person as to whether they want to talk or not.

I can't fault someone if they make a sincere attempt and make a decision that I might not make myself.

[screwtape]

Tough love can look like wrath if looked at from a different perspective.

"Samaria shall become desolate; for she has rebelled against her God: they shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up." Hosea 13:16

That's some pretty tough love in my book.

[Mountaineer]

I'm sorry.  However, I hope you were not lying about the Blue Moon and jerk chicken and somehow meant that only jerks eat chicken while you eat the real deal BBQ    Now, go look important and convince all those pagans to like Blue Moon and convert. 

Speaking of the angry God, I often wonder why modern Christians are so bent on sugar-coating this aspect of what the God of the Bible is really like. If there is one thing those who wrote the Bible could agree on it was that God is very angry and men need to repent. That is the major theme of the Bible from the beginning of creation all the way through to the book of Revelations. "Consider this, you who forget God, or I will tear you to pieces, with no one to rescue you" (Psalm 50:22). Even Jesus said when referring to a tower that fell on some people and killed 18 of them, "Unless you repent you shall all likewise perish" (I think Desert mentioned somewhere below that Jesus wasn't the nice guy some people make him out to be and I completely agree).

I think the most honest preachers nowadays are the fire breathing street preachers though you don't see much of them any more. Today you hand out a tract that says "God loves you and has a wonderful plan for your life" (I don't know if they are still handing that tract out but I actually handed some out some myself when they are in vogue).

My perspective:  I think those who only preach fire and brimstone, though honest, are missing part of the picture even though repentance is certainly an essential item.  I think those who do the sugar coated version and have only the lovey-dovey Jesus are also missing part of the picture, even though love of God and love of neighbor are essential (though impossible for sinful humans to do on their own). 

I think the most correct view is, even though we now see through a mirror dimly:  God the Father is a wrathful God, he will give us exactly what we deserve according to his, not our, rules.  God the Father also loves his creation and wants us to spend eternal life with him.  God the Father loved us so much, he sent his Son to atone for the sins we deserve punishment for, while he, the Son, deserved zero punishment.  Jesus took ALL our sin, for ALL time and for ALL people, upon himself, with the physical pain and suffering and the horrible anguish of knowing he was for a time totally forsaken by God the Father because of that sin he accepted in our place according to God's will.  In turn, we get Jesus' righteousness and are declared "not guilty" by God according to his rules.  Jesus then sent the Holy Spirit to us to make himself, his teachings, his love, his righteousness and ours known - all now and not yet - as we will not achieve full righteousness until after the Last Day.  There are shadows and foreshadows all over the First Testament that tell this story.  We are saved because of what Christ did on the cross for us - the only catch is that you have to believe the story and trust that God is faithful to his promises.  Does not seem quite fair or quite reasonable by human standards does it?  Those who proclaim God's Word and tell the whole story that is throughout the Bible, not pick and choose to fit a personal or otherwise agenda or selectively tell part of the story because "they" think they know what is best for their hearers, seem to me to be the most accurate - not perfect but good enough for us to understand the message.  I doubt we will ever really understand all the mysteries until after the Last Day.  It is not the preacher's story, no matter how entertaining or how many people show up to hear it, that is important - it is faithful telling of the story, good and bad, that matters.  FWIW, my wife grew up in a well intentioned fire and brimstone preached church; I can't even begin to tell you how freeing it was for her to come to hear all the Word and realize the whole truth - far better than jerk chicken and Blue Moon. 

... Mountaineer

[Pointedstick]

To piggyback on what Mountaineer said, all we can do is sow seeds. While I may believe that others go to hell (the end result of not wanting to have a relationship with God/Jesus), I realize I can't prove that. Because of this, I can only just tell you what I believe and then you have to make the final call on what you want to do.

Even if I could prove it however, I'd still just show you all of the facts that I have, and let you still make the decision based on what you know. That's where our freewill still comes in.

For me, it's not my job on earth to forceably convert people. I want to learn more about Christianity so that I can talk to others in case they are ever interested in having further conversations about it or questions about it. Other than that, it is still ultimately the choice of the person as to whether they want to talk or not.

I can't fault someone if they make a sincere attempt and make a decision that I might not make myself.

My not being a Christian has nothing to do with the status of my desire to have a relationship with God or Jesus; such a thing is predicated on my believing that God exists and that Jesus was his son and mortal incarnation and all of humanity's lord and savior rather than just a rabble-rouser who was murdered by the government. How can I decide not to have a relationship with an entity that I don't even know exists or not? Am I deciding not to have a relationship with the aliens of Alpha Centauri? It's very difficult for me to envision a person who believes in God and Jesus but "doesn't want to have a relationship with them." If I knew or had faith that God existed and that Jesus was his son and mortal incarnation and all of humanity's lord and savior, you bet I'd want to have a relationship with them.

[MachineGhost]

Probably millions of years of evolution with regards to survival bred into our minds and motivations.  Why don't we care more about others?  Because beyond a certain tribal instinct, caring about others too much would have put you in a more vulnerable position over the millennia. Nature often doesn't care for benevolence unless it assists the survival of the herd vs the individual.

That seems pretty self-evident looking at the HUGE array of cognitive biases hardcoded into the brain from evolutionary pressures.  Most of it -- to be blunt -- is not humanistic and does not serve human needs very well at all.

[iwealth]

To piggyback on what Mountaineer said, all we can do is sow seeds. While I may believe that others go to hell (the end result of not wanting to have a relationship with God/Jesus), I realize I can't prove that. Because of this, I can only just tell you what I believe and then you have to make the final call on what you want to do.

Even if I could prove it however, I'd still just show you all of the facts that I have, and let you still make the decision based on what you know. That's where our freewill still comes in.

For me, it's not my job on earth to forceably convert people. I want to learn more about Christianity so that I can talk to others in case they are ever interested in having further conversations about it or questions about it. Other than that, it is still ultimately the choice of the person as to whether they want to talk or not.

I can't fault someone if they make a sincere attempt and make a decision that I might not make myself.

You can't fault them, but you still believe they are going to hell. And to be clear, since you responded to Pointedstick's post when you said "while I may believe that others go to hell (the end result of not wanting to have a relationship with God/Jesus)" you in fact mean that he is going to hell, right? Or at least for now given his current belief system.

And I only post this because while there is a lot of mutual respect amongst participants here, that respect doesn't change the fact that some thread participants feel that others are going to spend eternity in hell.

It's a bit bizarre.

[MachineGhost]

Come on guys, surely you have a worldview.  I'm seriously having trouble understanding that you don't have an explanation that makes sense to you that explains the way things are; otherwise, you would not be able to critique the Christianity worldview.  If you have no reference point from which to judge you are just floating aimlessly in the cosmos.  I would find that VERY disturbing ... but maybe you don't?  How do you even get through the day, let alone life?  Please explain, I don't understand.  Maybe it is still not clear what I'm asking to understand? 

You won't understand, but this is my worldview (or should I say, multiverseview?):

[align=center][/align]

[screwtape]

FWIW, my wife grew up in a well intentioned fire and brimstone preached church; I can't even begin to tell you how freeing it was for her to come to hear all the Word and realize the whole truth - far better than jerk chicken and Blue Moon. 

I was raised among the Society of Friends, aka, Quakers so I don't know if they were preaching what you call the "whole truth" or not. I don't remember them preaching fire and brimstone but I do remember them sincerely begging you to accept Jesus into your heart to keep from going to Hell, sometimes even with tears in their eyes. I probably said the sinner's prayer at least 25 times.

I'll stick with the jerk barbecue (it was actually, ribs and chicken) and the Blue Moon, thank you.

And for the record I don't mind you "planting seeds" to remind us we are going to hell, but you have to be willing to accept my snarky comments if you do.

[Libertarian666]

To piggyback on what Mountaineer said, all we can do is sow seeds. While I may believe that others go to hell (the end result of not wanting to have a relationship with God/Jesus), I realize I can't prove that. Because of this, I can only just tell you what I believe and then you have to make the final call on what you want to do.

Even if I could prove it however, I'd still just show you all of the facts that I have, and let you still make the decision based on what you know. That's where our freewill still comes in.

For me, it's not my job on earth to forceably convert people. I want to learn more about Christianity so that I can talk to others in case they are ever interested in having further conversations about it or questions about it. Other than that, it is still ultimately the choice of the person as to whether they want to talk or not.

I can't fault someone if they make a sincere attempt and make a decision that I might not make myself.

y not being a Christian has nothing to do with the status of my desire to have a relationship with God or Jesus; such a thing is predicated on my believing that God exists and that Jesus was his son and mortal incarnation and all of humanity's lord and savior rather than just a rabble-rouser who was murdered by the government. How can I decide not to have a relationship with an entity that I don't even know exists or not? Am I deciding not to have a relationship with the aliens of Alpha Centauri? It's very difficult for me to envision a person who believes in God and Jesus but "doesn't want to have a relationship with them." If I knew or had faith that God existed and that Jesus was his son and mortal incarnation and all of humanity's lord and savior, you bet I'd want to have a relationship with them.

There you go then. All you need is faith!

[MachineGhost]

And how do we know that Christians aren't the ones who are actually mocking and insulting God by continuing to promote the primitive belief that he is a wrathful God of vengeance?

I'm sure "God" will understand; after all, everything on the whole spectrum of existence is a valid experience.

[Mountaineer]

Come on guys, surely you have a worldview.  I'm seriously having trouble understanding that you don't have an explanation that makes sense to you that explains the way things are; otherwise, you would not be able to critique the Christianity worldview.  If you have no reference point from which to judge you are just floating aimlessly in the cosmos.  I would find that VERY disturbing ... but maybe you don't?  How do you even get through the day, let alone life?  Please explain, I don't understand.  Maybe it is still not clear what I'm asking to understand? 

You won't understand, but this is my worldview (or should I say, multiverseview?):

[align=center][/align]

Are you sure this isn't a better depiction? 

EDIT:  Oooops, I could not get the picture to post correctly.  It is a Rodin knockoff with an ape staring at a man's skull.  My mother-in-law gave it to me years ago.  I think she was trying to tell me something in my "heathen" days.



... Mountaineer

[Mountaineer]

FWIW, my wife grew up in a well intentioned fire and brimstone preached church; I can't even begin to tell you how freeing it was for her to come to hear all the Word and realize the whole truth - far better than jerk chicken and Blue Moon. 

I was raised among the Society of Friends, aka, Quakers so I don't know if they were preaching what you call the "whole truth" or not. I don't remember them preaching fire and brimstone but I do remember them sincerely begging you to accept Jesus into your heart to keep from going to Hell, sometimes even with tears in their eyes. I probably said the sinner's prayer at least 25 times.

I'll stick with the jerk barbecue (it was actually, ribs and chicken) and the Blue Moon, thank you.

And for the record I don't mind you "planting seeds" to remind us we are going to hell, but you have to be willing to accept my snarky comments if you do.

Completely willing! 

... Mountaineer

[MachineGhost]

What if heaven exists but it's actually quite a mediocre place? Madbean2 can't get a Blue Moon because all they have is Budweiser. The music kind of sucks, and come to think of it, it is a bit loud. Wisecrackers like me can't get an audience for our endless stream of BS. It doesn't rain quite enough for long periods. God is shorter than we thought or maybe just needs to get with the times. Is there wi-fi?

We could always ask Robin Williams (boy, talk about foreshadowing!)...

[align=center][img width=800]http://i62.tinypic.com/28rcxnk.jpg[/img][/img][/align]

[MachineGhost]

If I had an acquaintance who drank too much, I don't think it would be a good idea for me to talk to them about their behavior and encourage them to be more responsible. Though I would be meaning well, likely that would only insult them and make them want to be around me less. That kind of thing very rarely works.  Instead, I can disapprove of their drunkenness without actively trying to save them from themselves.

As we life our lives, we're constantly surrounded by people who are doing things we consider destructive or wrong or stupid or whatever. I find that I'm much less stressed out and unhappy when I try to let go of what other people are doing wrong from my perspective and just let them live their own lives. I'm actually really bad at this, and it's a struggle, I admit. But the more successful I get at it, the happier I feel and the more people seem to want to be around me. I guess nobody likes feeling judged.

You're not alone.  I think its a curse of being a highly aware and curious intellectual.  But people with addictions cannot perceive what others do about them and they need a helping hand to get them to finally take responsibility for themselves, no matter how much it insults them.  Tolerance only works up to a point (see immigration).  This applies to government welfare too, BTW.

[Greg]

FWIW, my wife grew up in a well intentioned fire and brimstone preached church; I can't even begin to tell you how freeing it was for her to come to hear all the Word and realize the whole truth - far better than jerk chicken and Blue Moon. 

I was raised among the Society of Friends, aka, Quakers so I don't know if they were preaching what you call the "whole truth" or not. I don't remember them preaching fire and brimstone but I do remember them sincerely begging you to accept Jesus into your heart to keep from going to Hell, sometimes even with tears in their eyes. I probably said the sinner's prayer at least 25 times.

I'll stick with the jerk barbecue (it was actually, ribs and chicken) and the Blue Moon, thank you.

And for the record I don't mind you "planting seeds" to remind us we are going to hell, but you have to be willing to accept my snarky comments if you do.

Completely willing! 

... Mountaineer

Feel free to attempt to poke holes into the faith and the snarky comments towards it. Only through stressing something can you allow it to grow.

[MachineGhost]

Speaking of the angry God, I often wonder why modern Christians are so bent on sugar-coating this aspect of what the God of the Bible is really like. If there is one thing those who wrote the Bible could agree on it was that God is very angry and men need to repent. That is the major theme of the Bible from the beginning of creation all the way through to the book of Revelations. "Consider this, you who forget God, or I will tear you to pieces, with no one to rescue you" (Psalm 50:22). Even Jesus said when referring to a tower that fell on some people and killed 18 of them, "Unless you repent you shall all likewise perish" (I think Desert mentioned somewhere below that Jesus wasn't the nice guy some people make him out to be and I completely agree).

I think the most honest preachers nowadays are the fire breathing street preachers though you don't see much of them any more. Today you hand out a tract that says "God loves you and has a wonderful plan for your life" (I don't know if they are still handing that tract out but I actually handed some out some myself when they are in vogue).

It seems pretty obvious that the concept of "God" has evolved along with the rise in empathy.  So the Bible is outdated or like I said before, must be read with "original intent" of the times it was written.

Lets take a proposition that the universe is held together by the force of love.  Would such an angry, mean and vengeance-seeking "God" make any sense within that context at all???  Evil, hatred and anger are typically the result of an absence or withholding of love.  Such tyrant's power rests upon the tenuous support of their victims which is why they rely on negative emotions for their false idol of respect, not love.  Observe the lack of love in abused children, prisoners, murderers, psychopaths, etc..  So "God" is actually psychologically fucked up and mentally damaged.  Does that make any logical or rational sense about a Creator that is presumably behind all the wonderful mysteries of life? 

[Greg]

To piggyback on what Mountaineer said, all we can do is sow seeds. While I may believe that others go to hell (the end result of not wanting to have a relationship with God/Jesus), I realize I can't prove that. Because of this, I can only just tell you what I believe and then you have to make the final call on what you want to do.

Even if I could prove it however, I'd still just show you all of the facts that I have, and let you still make the decision based on what you know. That's where our freewill still comes in.

For me, it's not my job on earth to forceably convert people. I want to learn more about Christianity so that I can talk to others in case they are ever interested in having further conversations about it or questions about it. Other than that, it is still ultimately the choice of the person as to whether they want to talk or not.

I can't fault someone if they make a sincere attempt and make a decision that I might not make myself.

You can't fault them, but you still believe they are going to hell. And to be clear, since you responded to Pointedstick's post when you said "while I may believe that others go to hell (the end result of not wanting to have a relationship with God/Jesus)" you in fact mean that he is going to hell, right? Or at least for now given his current belief system.

And I only post this because while there is a lot of mutual respect amongst participants here, that respect doesn't change the fact that some thread participants feel that others are going to spend eternity in hell.

It's a bit bizarre.

(note, the below is an example, I do not agree with it but it was an easy analogy for me)
I may think some of MG's thoughts towards investing are incorrect or won't gain as much CAGR as the standard PP, but I won't be able to figure this out till after the fact. I may believe I'm correct, and I can try to tell him he is wrong based on current available information, but I can't prove him wrong. I can only just say my piece and then sit down and twiddle my thumbs knowing I tried/sowed seeds.

I really think PS is a great guy (or at least the guy he pretends to be on this forum  ), very thoughtful and inquisitive. I think I am correct and for me to be correct, others have to be wrong based on Christian teachings. I am not condemning him, I don't have that ability. I can only state what I believe to be correct, and the consequences of unbelief based on my current understanding. He then has the decision to keep trying to find God in his life/assuming he may not may not be there, assume there is a God and start following him, or denying him in general.

What would be bizarre would be if I changed Christianity to suit my own thoughts of what I believe is moral versus just saying it is what it is. If I had my way, I'd let everyone go to heaven, regardless of belief or how nice they were in this life. They just might be living in the Camden, NJ equivalent of heaven if they are bad.

[screwtape]

Feel free to attempt to poke holes into the faith and the snarky comments towards it. Only through stressing something can you allow it to grow.

Like the Bible says, "Iron sharpens Iron", but I have to tell you I'm probably a hopeless cause because I've been there and done that. I feel more liberated with every snarky comment I make (plus it's a lot of fun thinking them up, though obviously with the help of satan).