Gyroscopic Investing

doodle wrote: ↑Wed Dec 16, 2020 11:45 am
Someone said once that money is like manure, it only does any good when you spread it around. The more concentrated wealth becomes the weaker and more precarious capitalism's position becomes. F. Roosevelt was a very wise man in this regard. Had it not been for roosevelt we would have probably had a communist revolution in this country or the rise of a fascist regime. Roosevelt saved capitalism.

doodle wrote: ↑Wed Dec 16, 2020 11:51 am I almost want this narrative to play out. I want these people to witness the effects of trying to push their theories to the breaking point. You think this summer was bad? Let's keep pushing the disparity til 1% owns 90% of country's wealth. Hey, that's freedom!

MangoMan wrote: ↑Wed Dec 16, 2020 11:58 am Gig workers like and want flexibility, that’s why they became gig workers

MangoMan wrote: ↑Wed Dec 16, 2020 11:58 am Gig workers like and want flexibility, that’s why they became gig workers

MangoMan wrote: ↑Wed Dec 16, 2020 12:12 pm I give up. It not worth trying to convince you of anything.

MangoMan wrote: ↑Wed Dec 16, 2020 12:12 pm

pmward wrote: ↑Wed Dec 16, 2020 11:39 am

MangoMan wrote: ↑Wed Dec 16, 2020 11:34 am

pmward wrote: ↑Wed Dec 16, 2020 11:21 am
We also have the abomination that is the "gig economy" where people are lining up to be paid less than min wage after expenses (gas, maintenance, wear and tear, etc). These things are like a rock holding wage growth down.

I'm not sure what your problem with Gig working is. You sound like a Cali politician. If you ask Gig workers, most of them love the arrangement and want the government to stay out of it.

Can you point me to all these gig workers who "love the arrangement"? I mean seriously. I can see some people loving it sure, someone that needs the flexible schedule that a real job does not have. But the "gig economy" is like the modern day version of child labor. The people that own capital in the company make millions on the backs of the poor people that do the actual work for damn near nothing. In a growing economy these kind of less than minimum wage jobs would not exist. It's only because of the wealth gap compounding on itself, the massive disparity between the upper and lower classes, and the lower classes sheer desperation that allows these shit pay jobs to exist.

pmward wrote: ↑Wed Dec 16, 2020 12:02 pm

MangoMan wrote: ↑Wed Dec 16, 2020 11:58 am Gig workers like and want flexibility, that’s why they became gig workers

Hey you know, because you can find an article saying this online it MUST obviously be true.

You crack me up pmward. You asked for support for my statement, I give it to you and then you dismiss it with hand waiving. I give up. It not worth trying to convince you of anything.

Mountaineer wrote: ↑Wed Dec 16, 2020 2:07 pm I think Pugchief hit the key issue on the head - greed. We are mostly a greedy people. We want the see-saw firmly planted on the “I want more stuff, or the means to acquire it” side rather than on the “I have enough” side. Bigger house, flashier car, dozens of shirts, pants and shoes, and then go rent storage space to put the excess in. Life on the farm was harder and simpler and in many ways more rewarding than life in the fast lane with 3 TV sets and the latest iPhone version always front and center. We have thrown simplicity and God and our close connection to nature out the window and replaced it with an idol of more stuff. We are reaping the rewards.

pmward wrote: ↑Wed Dec 16, 2020 2:15 pm

Mountaineer wrote: ↑Wed Dec 16, 2020 2:07 pm I think Pugchief hit the key issue on the head - greed. We are mostly a greedy people. We want the see-saw firmly planted on the “I want more stuff, or the means to acquire it” side rather than on the “I have enough” side. Bigger house, flashier car, dozens of shirts, pants and shoes, and then go rent storage space to put the excess in. Life on the farm was harder and simpler and in many ways more rewarding than life in the fast lane with 3 TV sets and the latest iPhone version always front and center. We have thrown simplicity and God and our close connection to nature out the window and replaced it with an idol of more stuff. We are reaping the rewards.

You have no idea how much I agree with this right here.

—
If there is one proposition which currently wins the assent of nearly everybody, it is that we need more jobs. “A cure for unemployment” is promised, or earnestly sought, by every Heavy Thinker from Jimmy Carter to the Communist Party USA, from Ronald Reagan to the head of the economics department at the local university, from the Birchers to the New Left.
I would like to challenge that idea. I don’t think there is, or ever again can be, a cure for unemployment. I propose that unemployment is not a disease, but the natural, healthy functioning of an advanced technological society.

Mountaineer wrote: ↑Wed Dec 16, 2020 2:07 pm I think Pugchief hit the key issue on the head - greed. We are mostly a greedy people. We want the see-saw firmly planted on the “I want more stuff, or the means to acquire it” side rather than on the “I have enough” side. Bigger house, flashier car, dozens of shirts, pants and shoes, and then go rent storage space to put the excess in. Life on the farm was harder and simpler and in many ways more rewarding than life in the fast lane with 3 TV sets and the latest iPhone version always front and center. We have thrown simplicity and God and our close connection to nature out the window and replaced it with an idol of more stuff. We are reaping the rewards.

pmward wrote: ↑Wed Dec 16, 2020 2:15 pm

Mountaineer wrote: ↑Wed Dec 16, 2020 2:07 pm I think Pugchief hit the key issue on the head - greed. We are mostly a greedy people. We want the see-saw firmly planted on the “I want more stuff, or the means to acquire it” side rather than on the “I have enough” side. Bigger house, flashier car, dozens of shirts, pants and shoes, and then go rent storage space to put the excess in. Life on the farm was harder and simpler and in many ways more rewarding than life in the fast lane with 3 TV sets and the latest iPhone version always front and center. We have thrown simplicity and God and our close connection to nature out the window and replaced it with an idol of more stuff. We are reaping the rewards.

You have no idea how much I agree with this right here.

doodle wrote: ↑Wed Dec 16, 2020 3:09 pm

pmward wrote: ↑Wed Dec 16, 2020 2:15 pm

Mountaineer wrote: ↑Wed Dec 16, 2020 2:07 pm I think Pugchief hit the key issue on the head - greed. We are mostly a greedy people. We want the see-saw firmly planted on the “I want more stuff, or the means to acquire it” side rather than on the “I have enough” side. Bigger house, flashier car, dozens of shirts, pants and shoes, and then go rent storage space to put the excess in. Life on the farm was harder and simpler and in many ways more rewarding than life in the fast lane with 3 TV sets and the latest iPhone version always front and center. We have thrown simplicity and God and our close connection to nature out the window and replaced it with an idol of more stuff. We are reaping the rewards.

You have no idea how much I agree with this right here.

Are either of you familiar with Robert Anton Wilson or Buckminster Fuller's ideas regarding this?

—
If there is one proposition which currently wins the assent of nearly everybody, it is that we need more jobs. “A cure for unemployment” is promised, or earnestly sought, by every Heavy Thinker from Jimmy Carter to the Communist Party USA, from Ronald Reagan to the head of the economics department at the local university, from the Birchers to the New Left.
I would like to challenge that idea. I don’t think there is, or ever again can be, a cure for unemployment. I propose that unemployment is not a disease, but the natural, healthy functioning of an advanced technological society.

https://www.scribd.com/document/23833 ... H-Economy

doodle wrote: ↑Wed Dec 16, 2020 3:14 pm

doodle wrote: ↑Wed Dec 16, 2020 3:09 pm

pmward wrote: ↑Wed Dec 16, 2020 2:15 pm

Mountaineer wrote: ↑Wed Dec 16, 2020 2:07 pm I think Pugchief hit the key issue on the head - greed. We are mostly a greedy people. We want the see-saw firmly planted on the “I want more stuff, or the means to acquire it” side rather than on the “I have enough” side. Bigger house, flashier car, dozens of shirts, pants and shoes, and then go rent storage space to put the excess in. Life on the farm was harder and simpler and in many ways more rewarding than life in the fast lane with 3 TV sets and the latest iPhone version always front and center. We have thrown simplicity and God and our close connection to nature out the window and replaced it with an idol of more stuff. We are reaping the rewards.

You have no idea how much I agree with this right here.

Are either of you familiar with Robert Anton Wilson or Buckminster Fuller's ideas regarding this?

—
If there is one proposition which currently wins the assent of nearly everybody, it is that we need more jobs. “A cure for unemployment” is promised, or earnestly sought, by every Heavy Thinker from Jimmy Carter to the Communist Party USA, from Ronald Reagan to the head of the economics department at the local university, from the Birchers to the New Left.
I would like to challenge that idea. I don’t think there is, or ever again can be, a cure for unemployment. I propose that unemployment is not a disease, but the natural, healthy functioning of an advanced technological society.

https://www.scribd.com/document/23833 ... H-Economy

I reference this because the ideas mountaineer proposes would lead to massive unemployment and decreased growth and a rethinking of our economic models

yankees60 wrote: ↑Wed Dec 16, 2020 3:11 pm

Mountaineer wrote: ↑Wed Dec 16, 2020 2:07 pm I think Pugchief hit the key issue on the head - greed. We are mostly a greedy people. We want the see-saw firmly planted on the “I want more stuff, or the means to acquire it” side rather than on the “I have enough” side. Bigger house, flashier car, dozens of shirts, pants and shoes, and then go rent storage space to put the excess in. Life on the farm was harder and simpler and in many ways more rewarding than life in the fast lane with 3 TV sets and the latest iPhone version always front and center. We have thrown simplicity and God and our close connection to nature out the window and replaced it with an idol of more stuff. We are reaping the rewards.

I have to check now....was it not you (or someone else?) who responded to me complaining about the way Apple's operating systems are not anywhere in terms of Windows systems when it comes to being able to use applications on older devices / computers?

With Windows you'd always be able to use an old computer for quite a while because the applications for not only the most recent operating system but for the two prior were always made available.

Not so in the Apple world. Once they release a new operating system for items like iPads, iTouches, iPhones the applications for older operating systems just disappear and are unobtainable. Unlike the way Windows handles prior operating systems. The way Apple does it seems to be a sterling example of planned obsolescence.

I think I went on for much longer than I just have but I think your response was that you'd bought a new car. And, that if I had expectations of things working then I needed to get rid of the old and buy the newest version.

I am almost certain that was you. Was it or was it not?

Vinny

doodle wrote: ↑Wed Dec 16, 2020 3:14 pm

doodle wrote: ↑Wed Dec 16, 2020 3:09 pm

pmward wrote: ↑Wed Dec 16, 2020 2:15 pm

Mountaineer wrote: ↑Wed Dec 16, 2020 2:07 pm I think Pugchief hit the key issue on the head - greed. We are mostly a greedy people. We want the see-saw firmly planted on the “I want more stuff, or the means to acquire it” side rather than on the “I have enough” side. Bigger house, flashier car, dozens of shirts, pants and shoes, and then go rent storage space to put the excess in. Life on the farm was harder and simpler and in many ways more rewarding than life in the fast lane with 3 TV sets and the latest iPhone version always front and center. We have thrown simplicity and God and our close connection to nature out the window and replaced it with an idol of more stuff. We are reaping the rewards.

You have no idea how much I agree with this right here.

Are either of you familiar with Robert Anton Wilson or Buckminster Fuller's ideas regarding this?

—
If there is one proposition which currently wins the assent of nearly everybody, it is that we need more jobs. “A cure for unemployment” is promised, or earnestly sought, by every Heavy Thinker from Jimmy Carter to the Communist Party USA, from Ronald Reagan to the head of the economics department at the local university, from the Birchers to the New Left.
I would like to challenge that idea. I don’t think there is, or ever again can be, a cure for unemployment. I propose that unemployment is not a disease, but the natural, healthy functioning of an advanced technological society.

https://www.scribd.com/document/23833 ... H-Economy

I reference this because the ideas mountaineer proposes would lead to massive unemployment and decreased growth and a rethinking of our economic models

Mountaineer wrote: ↑Wed Dec 16, 2020 3:28 pm

yankees60 wrote: ↑Wed Dec 16, 2020 3:11 pm

Mountaineer wrote: ↑Wed Dec 16, 2020 2:07 pm I think Pugchief hit the key issue on the head - greed. We are mostly a greedy people. We want the see-saw firmly planted on the “I want more stuff, or the means to acquire it” side rather than on the “I have enough” side. Bigger house, flashier car, dozens of shirts, pants and shoes, and then go rent storage space to put the excess in. Life on the farm was harder and simpler and in many ways more rewarding than life in the fast lane with 3 TV sets and the latest iPhone version always front and center. We have thrown simplicity and God and our close connection to nature out the window and replaced it with an idol of more stuff. We are reaping the rewards.

I have to check now....was it not you (or someone else?) who responded to me complaining about the way Apple's operating systems are not anywhere in terms of Windows systems when it comes to being able to use applications on older devices / computers?

With Windows you'd always be able to use an old computer for quite a while because the applications for not only the most recent operating system but for the two prior were always made available.

Not so in the Apple world. Once they release a new operating system for items like iPads, iTouches, iPhones the applications for older operating systems just disappear and are unobtainable. Unlike the way Windows handles prior operating systems. The way Apple does it seems to be a sterling example of planned obsolescence.

I think I went on for much longer than I just have but I think your response was that you'd bought a new car. And, that if I had expectations of things working then I needed to get rid of the old and buy the newest version.

I am almost certain that was you. Was it or was it not?

Vinny

I don’t think it was me, could be wrong though. I still sometimes use a mid-2009 MacBook Pro but it is really sloooooooooooow on many tasks, and, I don’t have a new car. Mine is a 2012 that replaced a 1995 and wife’s a 2018 that replaced a 1996. Apple might have planned obsolescence, or maybe they are just good at making better stuff that we greedy people want.

yankees60 wrote: ↑Wed Dec 16, 2020 3:36 pm

Mountaineer wrote: ↑Wed Dec 16, 2020 3:28 pm

yankees60 wrote: ↑Wed Dec 16, 2020 3:11 pm

Mountaineer wrote: ↑Wed Dec 16, 2020 2:07 pm I think Pugchief hit the key issue on the head - greed. We are mostly a greedy people. We want the see-saw firmly planted on the “I want more stuff, or the means to acquire it” side rather than on the “I have enough” side. Bigger house, flashier car, dozens of shirts, pants and shoes, and then go rent storage space to put the excess in. Life on the farm was harder and simpler and in many ways more rewarding than life in the fast lane with 3 TV sets and the latest iPhone version always front and center. We have thrown simplicity and God and our close connection to nature out the window and replaced it with an idol of more stuff. We are reaping the rewards.

I have to check now....was it not you (or someone else?) who responded to me complaining about the way Apple's operating systems are not anywhere in terms of Windows systems when it comes to being able to use applications on older devices / computers?

With Windows you'd always be able to use an old computer for quite a while because the applications for not only the most recent operating system but for the two prior were always made available.

Not so in the Apple world. Once they release a new operating system for items like iPads, iTouches, iPhones the applications for older operating systems just disappear and are unobtainable. Unlike the way Windows handles prior operating systems. The way Apple does it seems to be a sterling example of planned obsolescence.

I think I went on for much longer than I just have but I think your response was that you'd bought a new car. And, that if I had expectations of things working then I needed to get rid of the old and buy the newest version.

I am almost certain that was you. Was it or was it not?

Vinny

I don’t think it was me, could be wrong though. I still sometimes use a mid-2009 MacBook Pro but it is really sloooooooooooow on many tasks, and, I don’t have a new car. Mine is a 2012 that replaced a 1995 and wife’s a 2018 that replaced a 1996. Apple might have planned obsolescence, or maybe they are just good at making better stuff that we greedy people want.

It WAS you! I started to doubt myself. But I just found the "smoking gun"! Just proves why people far and wide call me "Mr. Memory"!

I HAD WRITTEN:

Apple-- Planned obsolescence?
Post by yankees60 » Sat Nov 23, 2019 11:23 pm

Can anyone explain to me the rationale for Apple's operating system for mobile devices?

For decades I had never owned anything Apple in the belief that their computers were way overpriced compared to Windows computers, and that if someone was going to create software they'd first create it for Windows programs and then, maybe, create the same for Apple computers. To this date is there a working version of QuickBooks or Quicken for Apple computers?

However, when I wanted to buy my first tablet in 2012 I decided I wanted to get an iPad since it seemed the reverse with Apple tablets compared to their competitors. Since they so dominated the market developers would first develop it for Apple and, then, maybe for other brands.

If I have misstated anything so far I more than welcome any corrections to my beliefs / assumptions.

I still have never owned an Apple computer but almost everything else Apple and really like each of them. I have multiples of each of the following: iPhones, iTouches, iPods, iPads.

Getting to my question.

I own Windows computers that have Windows 10, Windows 7, and Windows XP. For just about any software I want, I can almost always get that software in any of those operating system versions. If they were once created, then they are always available.

I was shocked to see that this is not the case for all those Apple devices I own.

There once were apps available that worked with the latest operating system possible on that device. But once a new operating system comes out then all apps worked with prior system are no longer to be found? The only way I can get at an app for a prior operating system is to have it already installed on one of my devices and then I can also download it to one of my other devices. However, if it an app I've never installed then it seems I'm not going to be able to obtain it to install on my devices that has topped out at an older operating system?

Looking for confirmation of what I have found to be the case so far. And, what is Apple's rationale for doing this? They have such an extreme demand for their products that they can get away with doing this? The most advanced case of planned obsolescence that I have ever personally encountered?

I assume that if I have a reading app installed on the devices I will always be able to read the current ebooks that I own plus always be able to send and receive email?

Vinny

YOU RESPONDED:

Re: Apple-- Planned obsolescence?
Post by Mountaineer » Sun Nov 24, 2019 12:59 pm

Re. Apple and planned obsolescence:

My wife and I have a 2018 vehicle. Some people we know like to drive an older 1964 Mustang, or even a 1950s Chevy truck.

If you want the latest and greatest safe car, good fuel mileage, dependability, comforts, etc., don't own and drive the oldies. If you like to continually tinker to keep the beast running and have a high value for nostalgia, drive the oldies. I suspect Apple is no different. You get what you pay for in terms of features, reliability, and build quality. Apple products "just work" and I expect Apple knows that many people will be attracted to that model. Not rocket science in my opinion. I'm not sure it is so much planned obsolescence as it is continual development and learning from prior endeavors what will make something better. And of course, bring in maximum dollars to keep the process going.

Mountaineer wrote: ↑Wed Dec 16, 2020 3:41 pm

yankees60 wrote: ↑Wed Dec 16, 2020 3:36 pm

Mountaineer wrote: ↑Wed Dec 16, 2020 3:28 pm

yankees60 wrote: ↑Wed Dec 16, 2020 3:11 pm

Mountaineer wrote: ↑Wed Dec 16, 2020 2:07 pm I think Pugchief hit the key issue on the head - greed. We are mostly a greedy people. We want the see-saw firmly planted on the “I want more stuff, or the means to acquire it” side rather than on the “I have enough” side. Bigger house, flashier car, dozens of shirts, pants and shoes, and then go rent storage space to put the excess in. Life on the farm was harder and simpler and in many ways more rewarding than life in the fast lane with 3 TV sets and the latest iPhone version always front and center. We have thrown simplicity and God and our close connection to nature out the window and replaced it with an idol of more stuff. We are reaping the rewards.

I have to check now....was it not you (or someone else?) who responded to me complaining about the way Apple's operating systems are not anywhere in terms of Windows systems when it comes to being able to use applications on older devices / computers?

With Windows you'd always be able to use an old computer for quite a while because the applications for not only the most recent operating system but for the two prior were always made available.

Not so in the Apple world. Once they release a new operating system for items like iPads, iTouches, iPhones the applications for older operating systems just disappear and are unobtainable. Unlike the way Windows handles prior operating systems. The way Apple does it seems to be a sterling example of planned obsolescence.

I think I went on for much longer than I just have but I think your response was that you'd bought a new car. And, that if I had expectations of things working then I needed to get rid of the old and buy the newest version.

I am almost certain that was you. Was it or was it not?

Vinny

I don’t think it was me, could be wrong though. I still sometimes use a mid-2009 MacBook Pro but it is really sloooooooooooow on many tasks, and, I don’t have a new car. Mine is a 2012 that replaced a 1995 and wife’s a 2018 that replaced a 1996. Apple might have planned obsolescence, or maybe they are just good at making better stuff that we greedy people want.

It WAS you! I started to doubt myself. But I just found the "smoking gun"! Just proves why people far and wide call me "Mr. Memory"!

I HAD WRITTEN:

Apple-- Planned obsolescence?
Post by yankees60 » Sat Nov 23, 2019 11:23 pm

Can anyone explain to me the rationale for Apple's operating system for mobile devices?

For decades I had never owned anything Apple in the belief that their computers were way overpriced compared to Windows computers, and that if someone was going to create software they'd first create it for Windows programs and then, maybe, create the same for Apple computers. To this date is there a working version of QuickBooks or Quicken for Apple computers?

However, when I wanted to buy my first tablet in 2012 I decided I wanted to get an iPad since it seemed the reverse with Apple tablets compared to their competitors. Since they so dominated the market developers would first develop it for Apple and, then, maybe for other brands.

If I have misstated anything so far I more than welcome any corrections to my beliefs / assumptions.

I still have never owned an Apple computer but almost everything else Apple and really like each of them. I have multiples of each of the following: iPhones, iTouches, iPods, iPads.

Getting to my question.

I own Windows computers that have Windows 10, Windows 7, and Windows XP. For just about any software I want, I can almost always get that software in any of those operating system versions. If they were once created, then they are always available.

I was shocked to see that this is not the case for all those Apple devices I own.

There once were apps available that worked with the latest operating system possible on that device. But once a new operating system comes out then all apps worked with prior system are no longer to be found? The only way I can get at an app for a prior operating system is to have it already installed on one of my devices and then I can also download it to one of my other devices. However, if it an app I've never installed then it seems I'm not going to be able to obtain it to install on my devices that has topped out at an older operating system?

Looking for confirmation of what I have found to be the case so far. And, what is Apple's rationale for doing this? They have such an extreme demand for their products that they can get away with doing this? The most advanced case of planned obsolescence that I have ever personally encountered?

I assume that if I have a reading app installed on the devices I will always be able to read the current ebooks that I own plus always be able to send and receive email?

Vinny

YOU RESPONDED:

Re: Apple-- Planned obsolescence?
Post by Mountaineer » Sun Nov 24, 2019 12:59 pm

Re. Apple and planned obsolescence:

My wife and I have a 2018 vehicle. Some people we know like to drive an older 1964 Mustang, or even a 1950s Chevy truck.

If you want the latest and greatest safe car, good fuel mileage, dependability, comforts, etc., don't own and drive the oldies. If you like to continually tinker to keep the beast running and have a high value for nostalgia, drive the oldies. I suspect Apple is no different. You get what you pay for in terms of features, reliability, and build quality. Apple products "just work" and I expect Apple knows that many people will be attracted to that model. Not rocket science in my opinion. I'm not sure it is so much planned obsolescence as it is continual development and learning from prior endeavors what will make something better. And of course, bring in maximum dollars to keep the process going.

Mr. Memory, it seems to me I said pretty much the same thing that I said over a year ago - did you see a significant conflict?

yankees60 wrote: ↑Wed Dec 16, 2020 4:32 pm

Mountaineer wrote: ↑Wed Dec 16, 2020 3:41 pm

yankees60 wrote: ↑Wed Dec 16, 2020 3:36 pm

Mountaineer wrote: ↑Wed Dec 16, 2020 3:28 pm

yankees60 wrote: ↑Wed Dec 16, 2020 3:11 pm

Mountaineer wrote: ↑Wed Dec 16, 2020 2:07 pm I think Pugchief hit the key issue on the head - greed. We are mostly a greedy people. We want the see-saw firmly planted on the “I want more stuff, or the means to acquire it” side rather than on the “I have enough” side. Bigger house, flashier car, dozens of shirts, pants and shoes, and then go rent storage space to put the excess in. Life on the farm was harder and simpler and in many ways more rewarding than life in the fast lane with 3 TV sets and the latest iPhone version always front and center. We have thrown simplicity and God and our close connection to nature out the window and replaced it with an idol of more stuff. We are reaping the rewards.

I have to check now....was it not you (or someone else?) who responded to me complaining about the way Apple's operating systems are not anywhere in terms of Windows systems when it comes to being able to use applications on older devices / computers?

With Windows you'd always be able to use an old computer for quite a while because the applications for not only the most recent operating system but for the two prior were always made available.

Not so in the Apple world. Once they release a new operating system for items like iPads, iTouches, iPhones the applications for older operating systems just disappear and are unobtainable. Unlike the way Windows handles prior operating systems. The way Apple does it seems to be a sterling example of planned obsolescence.

I think I went on for much longer than I just have but I think your response was that you'd bought a new car. And, that if I had expectations of things working then I needed to get rid of the old and buy the newest version.

I am almost certain that was you. Was it or was it not?

Vinny

I don’t think it was me, could be wrong though. I still sometimes use a mid-2009 MacBook Pro but it is really sloooooooooooow on many tasks, and, I don’t have a new car. Mine is a 2012 that replaced a 1995 and wife’s a 2018 that replaced a 1996. Apple might have planned obsolescence, or maybe they are just good at making better stuff that we greedy people want.

It WAS you! I started to doubt myself. But I just found the "smoking gun"! Just proves why people far and wide call me "Mr. Memory"!

I HAD WRITTEN:

Apple-- Planned obsolescence?
Post by yankees60 » Sat Nov 23, 2019 11:23 pm

Can anyone explain to me the rationale for Apple's operating system for mobile devices?

For decades I had never owned anything Apple in the belief that their computers were way overpriced compared to Windows computers, and that if someone was going to create software they'd first create it for Windows programs and then, maybe, create the same for Apple computers. To this date is there a working version of QuickBooks or Quicken for Apple computers?

However, when I wanted to buy my first tablet in 2012 I decided I wanted to get an iPad since it seemed the reverse with Apple tablets compared to their competitors. Since they so dominated the market developers would first develop it for Apple and, then, maybe for other brands.

If I have misstated anything so far I more than welcome any corrections to my beliefs / assumptions.

I still have never owned an Apple computer but almost everything else Apple and really like each of them. I have multiples of each of the following: iPhones, iTouches, iPods, iPads.

Getting to my question.

I own Windows computers that have Windows 10, Windows 7, and Windows XP. For just about any software I want, I can almost always get that software in any of those operating system versions. If they were once created, then they are always available.

I was shocked to see that this is not the case for all those Apple devices I own.

There once were apps available that worked with the latest operating system possible on that device. But once a new operating system comes out then all apps worked with prior system are no longer to be found? The only way I can get at an app for a prior operating system is to have it already installed on one of my devices and then I can also download it to one of my other devices. However, if it an app I've never installed then it seems I'm not going to be able to obtain it to install on my devices that has topped out at an older operating system?

Looking for confirmation of what I have found to be the case so far. And, what is Apple's rationale for doing this? They have such an extreme demand for their products that they can get away with doing this? The most advanced case of planned obsolescence that I have ever personally encountered?

I assume that if I have a reading app installed on the devices I will always be able to read the current ebooks that I own plus always be able to send and receive email?

Vinny

YOU RESPONDED:

Re: Apple-- Planned obsolescence?
Post by Mountaineer » Sun Nov 24, 2019 12:59 pm

Re. Apple and planned obsolescence:

My wife and I have a 2018 vehicle. Some people we know like to drive an older 1964 Mustang, or even a 1950s Chevy truck.

If you want the latest and greatest safe car, good fuel mileage, dependability, comforts, etc., don't own and drive the oldies. If you like to continually tinker to keep the beast running and have a high value for nostalgia, drive the oldies. I suspect Apple is no different. You get what you pay for in terms of features, reliability, and build quality. Apple products "just work" and I expect Apple knows that many people will be attracted to that model. Not rocket science in my opinion. I'm not sure it is so much planned obsolescence as it is continual development and learning from prior endeavors what will make something better. And of course, bring in maximum dollars to keep the process going.

Mr. Memory, it seems to me I said pretty much the same thing that I said over a year ago - did you see a significant conflict?

Yes, I do!

Vinny

Mountaineer wrote: ↑Wed Dec 16, 2020 5:48 pm {thousand word quote}
This thread is getting really long.

dualstow wrote: ↑Wed Dec 16, 2020 6:33 pm

Mountaineer wrote: ↑Wed Dec 16, 2020 5:48 pm {thousand word quote}
This thread is getting really long.

But only one sentence at a time. I wonder how that happens.

Mountaineer wrote: ↑Wed Dec 16, 2020 5:48 pm
This thread is getting really long. But I'll bite anyway. What is it that you think my current position is significantly different on now versus what it was in November 2019? We are greedy people? Ongoing product development? I keep cars until they are no longer reliable? Apple products are superior to Windows? Some people prefer old stuff? Personal preference is bad? Something else?

yankees60 wrote: ↑Wed Dec 16, 2020 8:21 pm

Mountaineer wrote: ↑Wed Dec 16, 2020 5:48 pm
This thread is getting really long. But I'll bite anyway. What is it that you think my current position is significantly different on now versus what it was in November 2019? We are greedy people? Ongoing product development? I keep cars until they are no longer reliable? Apple products are superior to Windows? Some people prefer old stuff? Personal preference is bad? Something else?

MY COMMENTS IN CAPS IN YOUR ORIGINAL NOTE. ...MOUNTAINEER. P.S. THANKS FOR EXPLAINING.

Let's see if I can do this briefly.

You started this off by saying the issue is greed. We always want the latest and greatest rather than being satisfied with the sufficient. Is that a fair summary?

YES

Last year I stated I have these Apple products which I like a lot but I don't like that when they come up with a new operating system they take away the ability to find any additional apps anywhere online that will still work fine with your old device.

OK

Your last year's response seemed to be saying, Vinny, "Get with it! You cannot expect to have your old device to still work AS WELL AS MORE MODERN DEVICES. You own a yesterday's device.

Get with the program and buy the latest and greatest." Your advice seemed to be encouraging greed.

NO, NOT UNLESS YOU SUCCUMB TO THE SIREN'S SONG

Say I have a 2010 iPad, which I have several. GREED? WHY DO YOU NEED MORE THAN ONE, IF ANY?

In 2010 all these apps were available on it which ran fine on its operating system. Then when a new operating system is released that that 2010 iPad cannot upgrade to, all those apps that would still work with that 2010 iPad and its operating system become out of reach, nowhere to be found.

In contrast when Windows 10 came out, Microsoft and everyone else creating Microsoft Windows applications did not then make all Windows 7 programs unavailable.

OK

Therefore, going along with your original theme - fight the greed - I'd expect you to also be critical of Apple for now allowing old devices to function to their highest potential.

WHY? APPLE IS IN THE BUSINESS OF MAKING NEW PRODUCTS AND SELLING THEM TO THOSE WHO WANT THEM. I.E. BACK TO THE GREED OF THE PEOPLE. NO ONE FORCES YOU TO BUY IT.

I can live with and understand how a 2010 app that ran fine in 2010 on its operating system may no longer be able to run fine in 2020. That then leaves me deciding how important it is to continue to be able to run that app on an iPad. But there are some apps that still fun find on that 2010 iPad and its limited operating system, e.g., iBooks.

OK

Apple's policy feeds the human weakness of greed. Creating a problem that does not exist and being part of the greed problem and not a solution.

NOT APPLE'S PROBLEM. IT IS INDIVIDUAL GREED THAT FUELS THE FIRE. SEE ABOVE COMMENT ON APPLE'S BUSINESS

Therefore I'd have expected you to be critical of their policy and not tell me that I should not have expectations that something that worked fine should continue to work fine.

WHY WOULD I BE CRITICAL OF APPLE'S POLICY? SEE COMMENTS ABOUT THE BUSINESS APPLE IS IN. DO YOU GET UPSET WITH THE PEOPLE WHO MADE YOUR HOUSE AND ENABLED YOU TO HAVE SHELTER IF YOU SO DESIRED? OR SHOULD THE HOUSING MARKET STOP MAKING HOUSES AND MAKE COATS THAT WOULD KEEP YOU WARM AND DRY WITHOUT ALL THE TREES, MINING, MANUFACTURING, ETC. THAT ENABLE YOU TO HAVE MULTIPLE IPADS AND A ROOF OVER YOUR HEAD? JUST SORT OF KIDDING ON THIS ONE. WE ARE ALL GREEDY, SOME MORE THAN OTHERS, WHO AM I TO JUDGE WHETHER YOU ARE TOO GREEDY? PEACE BROTHER, EMBRACE THE GREED!

Vinny

sophie wrote: ↑Thu Dec 17, 2020 9:24 am I can answer a previous question from pmward, in the interest of taking this discussion back to Reality Land: are there people who prefer being gig workers to employees?

The answer is OMG YES!!!!!!!! You have to be living under a rock in Governor Newsome's backyard to think otherwise. Also you have to have a basic inability to understand math. The cost of an employee to a company is not just salary, it's salary + fringe benefits + payroll tax - that's generally a multiplier of something like 1.3. A contract worker gets that entire amount paid directly to them, out of which they pay their own payroll tax (SS+Medicare) and provide their own benefits (health insurance, retirement savings). Since they get full control, they don't have to pay for benefits they don't use. It's a win-win.

Some concrete examples:

1. My sister. She worked at Big 8 accounting firms after college, but hated being an employee/slave with 2 weeks vacation. She wanted to travel and enjoy life, and estimated she needed only part of her full time income to live on and keep adding to her savings. So she quit and started taking temp jobs. After each one concluded, she'd go on an extended adventurous trip (New Zealand, the Dolomites, Nepal etc). When she got back, she'd find herself another temp position usually within a week or two. She loved this arrangement and would have been extremely upset at being forced to give it up.

2. Every Uber driver I've talked to about the subject. Several have told me they have regular full-time jobs with a long car commute. They signed up with Uber in order to turn those car commutes into extra income - they just pick up rides on their way to and from work. Another one, in San Francisco, told me he was one of a large number of former employees of PG&E (Pacific Gas & Electric) who quit (long story which I don't remember) and switched to driving for Uber. He loved being in charge of his own hours, and they get to deduct things like their cell phone, and of course tax treatment of sole proprietors is way better than that of salaried employees. So there are extra financial benefits beyond getting full control of income.

3. Harry Browne's story about a firm he ran with several employees. He "fired" all of them and hired them as contract workers, because they all mutually decided that the employees would end up keeping more of their money that way. He explains this story in the book "How to be free in an unfree world" (may be slightly misremembering that title).

4. The mechanic who took care of my parents' cars for many years. He ran his repair shop out of his garage, at his home about a block away. He was well known as the best mechanic in town, and because his expenses were low he was also the best deal going. Although technically his business was against the town ordinances, that was never a problem because the Mayor, Council members, and most of the police force plus the fire chief were always among his customers. It was hilarious to watch a new family move into the neighborhood, find out about the business, complain to the town, and eventually become a customer. A very predictable cycle.

I could go on but I think you get the point. Why, pmward, are you so insistent on taking away people's freedom to work how they want to? That's frankly a fascist viewpoint - not a liberal one. Which is what the far left is. It's so amusing how they accuse the Republicans of fascism when the truth is the exact opposite.