Figuring Out Religion

[MediumTex]

If I prayed to God for guidance and he appeared to me in the form of a burning copy of the PP book and told me that the Bible was mostly incorrect because it had been improperly transcribed, what would be the best thing for me to do with that information?

[Greg]

All of this would make so much more sense to me if Christians said something like, "look, I didn't make the rules, God did, and if He says that people who don't follow the rules go to Hell and burn forever, that's just the way the cookie crumbles. He's a wrathful God who wants compliance and isn't above a little torture and unfairness but hey, if you want to avoid being tortured in a lake of fire forever, you'd better do what he says!"

This would make perfect sense to me. Instead, I hear a lot about God's love and how He's so benevolent and kind, but none of the metaphysics of the way He set up the universe seem to correspond to any definition of love or benevolence that I've ever heard satisfactorily expressed.

The first paragraph sounds like more of the knowing your place. You are an enlisted soldier, an E-1 private. God is a 5-star general because they don't exist anymore (or perhaps a 6-star). We follow his guidance of we'll be court marshaled, etc. We trust he has our best intentions in mind when he tells us to do stuff. What may seem like pain to us could be a different definition for love in the General's eyes.

[MachineGhost]

Point 1:  It is easy for me.  Truth in any arena is truth.  My skepticism is in play only when I don't understand one of those arenas sufficiently to make a determination of whether something is truthful.  Christianity is truth.  Problem solved. 

There it is, folks!  "I'm closed minded.  Don't bother me."

All rubbing aside, I really like Mountaineer as a person even if I think he's completely delusional with his religious beliefs.  But, we're all "allowed" to be like that now in areas of faith it seems!  Except in ISIS.

[Greg]

If I prayed to God for guidance and he appeared to me in the form of a burning copy of the PP book and told me that the Bible was mostly incorrect because it had been improperly transcribed, what would be the best thing for me to do with that information?

That's how many religions I'm assuming start. Someone's dreams, hallucinations, thoughts lead them to see something and to proclaim this to others. Just because they believe it, doesn't mean it is true. Also just because you prayed to God for guidance, doesn't mean that this burning copy of the PP book was what he wanted for your guidance. Maybe this was part of something greater to provide for you a test of faith. Again, I don't understand the mind of God although ideally I will a bit better when I see him in a couple of years.

[moda0306]

All of this would make so much more sense to me if Christians said something like, "look, I didn't make the rules, God did, and if He says that people who don't follow the rules go to Hell and burn forever, that's just the way the cookie crumbles. He's a wrathful God who wants compliance and isn't above a little torture and unfairness but hey, if you want to avoid being tortured in a lake of fire forever, you'd better do what he says!"

This would make perfect sense to me. Instead, I hear a lot about God's love and how He's so benevolent and kind, but none of the metaphysics of the way He set up the universe seem to correspond to any definition of love or benevolence that I've ever heard satisfactorily expressed.

The first paragraph sounds like more of the knowing your place. You are an enlisted soldier, an E-1 private. God is a 5-star general because they don't exist anymore (or perhaps a 6-star). We follow his guidance of we'll be court marshaled, etc. We trust he has our best intentions in mind when he tells us to do stuff. What may seem like pain to us could be a different definition for love in the General's eyes.

Can you please explain to me very specifically how you ever experienced God "told you to do stuff," either directly or indirectly?

[moda0306]

If I prayed to God for guidance and he appeared to me in the form of a burning copy of the PP book and told me that the Bible was mostly incorrect because it had been improperly transcribed, what would be the best thing for me to do with that information?

That's how many religions I'm assuming start. Someone's dreams, hallucinations, thoughts lead them to see something and to proclaim this to others. Just because they believe it, doesn't mean it is true. Also just because you prayed to God for guidance, doesn't mean that this burning copy of the PP book was what he wanted for your guidance. Maybe this was part of something greater to provide for you a test of faith. Again, I don't understand the mind of God although ideally I will a bit better when I see him in a couple of years.

If you don't understand the mind of God, how are you so sure about any of this? Which is it?  Is he a mystery, or do you know what he wants?

[Greg]

Further, as humans go, what is there to learn other than "believe what these guys wrote in a book because the book says it is the Word of God?" That's not "learning."  That is faith (accepting truth in the absence of evidence).  At least the puppy has evidence (his interactions with the human, direct outdoor training, etc).  All we have is different books, and different interpretations of those books since they're so inconsistent.[/color]

Moda,

What information would you want to make the decision to believe that God is who he says he is and that his route is the way to go?

[MachineGhost]

We are living in the end times now (ever since the crucifixion) and the Last Day is at hand when Christ returns and it is too late to change your belief one way or the other.

Here's a list of possible dates: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_d ... the_future

[MediumTex]

If I told you that God appeared to me last night after I wrote my King David rap and he told me that the whole Bible was wrong and that you should all follow me into West Texas to wander around for a few years, would you do it?

If not, why not?

How would what I was doing be any different from what Moses did?

[Pointedstick]

Moda,

What information would you want to make the decision to believe that God is who he says he is and that his route is the way to go?

Speaking for myself: either direct, observable, testable evidence, or an overwhelming emotional attraction to the faith.

Christianity (and, to be fair, all other religions I've sampled) haven't been able to give me either.

[moda0306]

<snip>
Mountaineer has been so generous with his contributions and I appreciate that so much, and like so many of you he is obviously a highly intelligent and mature person, and yet I don't understand how he anchors his beliefs inside his mind.  I don't know how those beliefs stay attached in the mind of a person who has a reasonable amount of skepticism in other areas of his life.

I've always wondered how religious actuaries could do their jobs in good conscience knowing that virtually all risk models do not include any probability of a supernatural event having an effect on the the property and events with respect to which they are calculating risk.  There is the old story about the FAA requiring all pilot teams to have at least one non-Christian in case the Rapture occurs during a flight, but if you are a risk manager who believes in the Rapture, why wouldn't you want to make sure there was a non-Christian on every pilot team, and implement a rule that a non-Christian pilot can NEVER be converted to Christianity during a flight.  If that were the rule, though, sooner or later a non-Christian pilot would tell his Christian co-pilot that he wants to become a Christian in the middle of a flight and the co-pilot would say, per company policy, he must wait until they land, but the non-Christian pilot then has a heart attack and dies before the flight lands and he winds up in Hell instead of Heaven.  The Christian risk manager would have to carry that around for the rest of his life--his Rapture risk management policy would have cost that poor pilot his eternal salvation.  Doh!

Point 1:  It is easy for me.  Truth in any arena is truth.  My skepticism is in play only when I don't understand one of those arenas sufficiently to make a determination of whether something is truthful.  Christianity is truth.  Problem solved. 

Point 2: I am not a proponent of the rapture - the rapture scenario is relatively recent - mid-eighteen hundreds if I remember correctly, and tied to dispensational premillennialism.  I am an amillennialist.  I believe Christ is only coming back one time as the Scriptures say; rapture hypothesis requires two times if I understand it correctly.  As an aside, regardless of the beliefs of the pilot and the passengers, when Christ returns, in the blink of an eye, it's all over anyway.  We are living in the end times now (ever since the crucifixion) and the Last Day is at hand when Christ returns and it is too late to change your belief one way or the other.

Point 3 - not in your above post: From one of your earlier posts about Santa Claus and not being able to return to the time when you believe in Santa - I relate that to the story about the Genie and the bottle.  Once the Genie is out, only the Genie can put himself back in the bottle.  Once a person is dead on the operating table, he is dead - he cannot revive himself - only an external means can do that (i.e. the surgeon).  Likewise, only God can restore your faith that you once had.  His chosen method that he tells us is for you to hear the Word and he has told us how that happens - Hear the Word proclaimed, receive the Means of Grace, read his Word.  The Holy Spirit's role is to make Jesus known to you; the HS was given to you at your Baptism, completely free of charge, a wonderful gift.

... Mountaineer

Re: Pt 1:

So you are 100% confident in your ability to interpret reality based on your senses that Christianity is truth?


Re: Pt 2:

Sure sounds like your conclusion involves "interpretation," which means that this goes beyond "scripture interprets scripture."  Interpretation usually involves a chance of being incorrect.  It seems you're so confident in your ability to determine the truth that you've written that off in most cases.

Re: Pt 3:

If the HS's job is to make Jesus known to us, why didn't you mention that earlier?  In other points, all you're saying is that we need to hear the Word of God... I don't think you ever mentioned having to get baptized.  Perhaps I'm wrong.  Is anyone who hasn't been baptized able to "know Jesus?"  Can anyone who hasn't been baptized go to heaven, then?

pooping puppies and punishing authoritarian gods that love us.... yikes i don't think i have ever read anything that turned me off organized religion or its understanding of god more...

if you insist on an anthropomorphized understanding of god and all of the inexplicable and unresolvable contractions that it creates... you are welcome to them (100's of pages so far)... i think i will stick to being a seeker of harmony, enlightenment, and spirituality, w/o all the crazy that comes with the attempt to understand god and its nature through a religion..

[MediumTex]

Moda,

What information would you want to make the decision to believe that God is who he says he is and that his route is the way to go?

Speaking for myself: either direct, observable, testable evidence, or an overwhelming emotional attraction to the faith.

Christianity (and, to be fair, all other religions I've sampled) haven't been able to give me either.

What if your wife had those experiences but you didn't?  Would you just trust her and follow her new beliefs?

[Greg]

Can you please explain to me very specifically how you ever experienced God "told you to do stuff," either directly or indirectly?

If you don't understand the mind of God, how are you so sure about any of this? Which is it?  Is he a mystery, or do you know what he wants?

I haven't been told to do stuff directly. I wish he would be that's not what I'll probably get. Instead, through prayers I do what I believe God wants me to do. There is a good chance I'll sin along the way, but that through always looking to him for guidance, he'll see me through even though I'm a pretty terrible human from his standard.

I can not be sure about many things, that goes back to what is truth. I don't know technically what is truth and what is not without a shadow of a doubt. I have to have a belief in everything, just some things are easier to believe are truth more than others. I question every decision I make and wish their was a better roadmap to what my life is supposed to be.

[Pointedstick]

Moda,

What information would you want to make the decision to believe that God is who he says he is and that his route is the way to go?

Speaking for myself: either direct, observable, testable evidence, or an overwhelming emotional attraction to the faith.

Christianity (and, to be fair, all other religions I've sampled) haven't been able to give me either.

What if your wife had those experiences but you didn't?  Would you just trust her and follow her new beliefs?

That's a tough one. In the interests of family harmony, I'd probably make a real effort to go with her, especially if the new faith seemed mild enough or offered practical benefits (e.g. a fun church community, bake sales, etc). If what she believed seemed crazy or destructive to me, and especially if she started turning into a zealot for it (this is a hypothetical because given my wife's personality, I honestly can't see her being zealot about anything), we might have to agree not to talk about it together or even part ways.

[MachineGhost]

I can't imagine God would give us the ability to use reason/consistency (which is difficult but works in the physical world), then ask us to set it aside and find religious truth based on the antithesis of that (faith, which in every other area of life is code word for "makes me feel good"), and send to eternal damnation anyone who doesn't use said unreliable tool (on what ends up being the right religion... forget all the others someone is presented with).

Moda nails it!!!         

"Logic is the cement of our civilization, with which we ascend from chaos, using reason as our guide." -- T'Plana-Hath, Matron of Vulcan Philosophy

[Greg]

Moda,

What information would you want to make the decision to believe that God is who he says he is and that his route is the way to go?

Speaking for myself: either direct, observable, testable evidence, or an overwhelming emotional attraction to the faith.

Christianity (and, to be fair, all other religions I've sampled) haven't been able to give me either.

I'm in the camp of overwhelming emotional attraction and trying to piece together what i can of the evidence. My siblings are for the most part all agnostic, (all three of them), and somehow I kept the faith. Still not really sure why that happened. Maybe due to fear of the unknown or hell, etc. Plus I really like the idea of God and there being something greater than me out there.

[moda0306]

Further, as humans go, what is there to learn other than "believe what these guys wrote in a book because the book says it is the Word of God?" That's not "learning."  That is faith (accepting truth in the absence of evidence).  At least the puppy has evidence (his interactions with the human, direct outdoor training, etc).  All we have is different books, and different interpretations of those books since they're so inconsistent.[/color]

Moda,

What information would you want to make the decision to believe that God is who he says he is and that his route is the way to go?

First off, the information would have to come from some source that isn't men writing in books.  That is on its face a very scary way to interpret truth via faith.  It would have to have some reliable evidence of coming from a higher power, and it would have to have consistency to it in terms of what it wanted from us.

That isn't too much to ask, especially if the penalty for being wrong is eternal damnation. 

[Greg]

Further, as humans go, what is there to learn other than "believe what these guys wrote in a book because the book says it is the Word of God?" That's not "learning."  That is faith (accepting truth in the absence of evidence).  At least the puppy has evidence (his interactions with the human, direct outdoor training, etc).  All we have is different books, and different interpretations of those books since they're so inconsistent.[/color]

Moda,

What information would you want to make the decision to believe that God is who he says he is and that his route is the way to go?

First off, the information would have to come from some source that isn't men writing in books.  That is on its face a very scary way to interpret truth via faith.  It would have to have some reliable evidence of coming from a higher power, and it would have to have consistency to it in terms of what it wanted from us.

That isn't too much to ask, especially if the penalty for being wrong is eternal damnation.

That's what I would want as well Moda, I really would. But let's say that by the time that information rolls around (let's say in 200 years), I'll be long dead and should have made the decision based on the incomplete knowledge I had and gone with best guess. It's not a great answer, but I'm searching for how I can make it stronger.

[MachineGhost]

Hello!  My name is Lucy.  I am an Australopithecus afarensis and I have hips that are made to be bipedal and toes that were made for dancing!  I couldn't climb a tree if I tried.

Oh man, MT...  that's almost too much!

Just on principle alone, I'm unilaterally activating the militant animal rights mode and denouncing all Christians as evil, tiger-penis-eating sh!theads.

[MachineGhost]

There's something about that that just seems, I dunno, cosmically wrong and unjust.

Bingo.  "Hell" is just a fictional creation inserted into the NT by the institutional Church to get their suckers followers to obey their edicts -- pass the tithe basket, please!  It's a very good exploitation of a particular cognitive bias.

[MediumTex]

I'll bet if more women had written books in the Bible, there would be less baby killing and raping.

One aspect of the Old Testament that bothers me is that apparently every single member of any tribe that opposed Israel deserved to be plundered, raped and/or killed.

Always casting political disputes as struggles between good and evil seems a little over the top to me.

[MediumTex]

Hello!  My name is Lucy.  I am an Australopithecus afarensis and I have hips that are made to be bipedal and toes that were made for dancing!  I couldn't climb a tree if I tried.

Oh man, MT...  that's almost too much!

Just on principle alone, I'm unilaterally activating the militant animal rights mode and denouncing all Christians as evil, tiger-penis-eating sh!theads.

Is there no love for my King David rap?

I was sure that would be a hit.

[MachineGhost]

We are given many chances to avoid pooping on the floor and we have the evidence that pooping on the floor gets us smacked. We have the freewill to choose to keep pooping on the floor.

That isn't evidence, its superstition.  How is that any different than the Greeks with their numerous gods or Confucians with their numerous dieties to explain acts of nature, bad luck, randomness, or misfortune before critical thinking and science existed?

[moda0306]

Moda,

What information would you want to make the decision to believe that God is who he says he is and that his route is the way to go?

First off, the information would have to come from some source that isn't men writing in books.  That is on its face a very scary way to interpret truth via faith.  It would have to have some reliable evidence of coming from a higher power, and it would have to have consistency to it in terms of what it wanted from us.

That isn't too much to ask, especially if the penalty for being wrong is eternal damnation.

That's what I would want as well Moda, I really would. But let's say that by the time that information rolls around (let's say in 200 years), I'll be long dead and should have made the decision based on the incomplete knowledge I had and gone with best guess. It's not a great answer, but I'm searching for how I can make it stronger.

Greg,

This is Pascal's Wager at work.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal%27s_Wager

While it might work as a personal philosophy, assuming you're picking the right sub-religion to work with, but that doesn't lend evidence of truth to the statement of God's existence or the truth of the Bible.

[MachineGhost]

Also, when Cain left the Garden, who did he marry?

One of his sisters. It was okay back then because:

1.) There wasn't someone saying you shouldn't do it
2.) There wasn't enough genetic abnormalities to make it a risk yet. Humans had perfect DNA but when they sinned, it slowly started getting errors in it. Also one of the reasons why humans were able to live so long in the beginning. They just had really good genes.

http://www.christiananswers.net/q-aig/aig-c004.html

Do you literally believe the above tripe?  Especially since actual real world evidence proves it to be false.  Don't shut down critical thinking just because you go into the realm of religion.

Why don't all you Christian believers get your genome sequenced and see how much Neanderthal DNA you have in you?