Figuring Out Religion

[MediumTex]

Hello!  My name is Lucy.  I am an Australopithecus afarensis and I have hips that are made to be bipedal and toes that were made for dancing!  I couldn't climb a tree if I tried.

I have a nice big brain (bigger than a chimp's but smaller than yours), and I am lots of fun to hang out with.  I have an easy smile, a quick wit, and I keep myself reasonably well groomed.

Do you think there is a place in Heaven for me?  What would I have needed to do to get in?  Since I was gone way before Jesus showed up, would I have needed to convert to Judaism?  I could have done that.  I love Jewish people!

[Greg]

1.) God created humans that had the ability to obey or disobey. He is of a higher order than us, the creation doesn't understand the reasons of the creator for things.
2.) Man wants to understand God, to be on the same level with Tree of Good and Evil. Man not content where he is, wants more.
3.) God punishes man for not trusting him and being content where you are.
4.) Humans build tower of Babel, tries to reach heaven and to become more God-like
5.) God punishes man for trying to be too close to God, not being content with where they are
6.) Fast-forward a few millennia, Bible is created that tells us everything we need. States it is the written inspired word of God.
7.) Man is not content with what is in Bible and wants more. Looks towards other religions/irreligion to understand the mind of God/meaning of life.
8.) God punishes man for trying to fully understand him to be like him, and we are sent to hell (separation from God).

Seems to be a recurring theme that God gave us 1 cookie, we want more and reach out hands in to the jar, and we get smacked. We don't understand why he won't let us get more cookies; they are right there for the taking. God knows something that we don't know and that we never will know. We just have to trust in his higher authority that he understands what is best for us.

I think of the relationship of God to man as me from myself to a puppy. I wanted a relationship and got a puppy. The puppy disobeys by pooping on the floor. I smack it and bring it outside. It doesn't understand why I won't let him poop in the house. Eventually he trusts that there is a good reason to not poop in the house or just doesn't want to get smacked anymore. The relationship develops and the dog obeys, even if it is somewhat blindly.

[MediumTex]

I think of the relationship of God to man as me from myself to a puppy. I wanted a relationship and got a puppy. The puppy disobeys by pooping on the floor. I smack it and bring it outside. It doesn't understand why I won't let him poop in the house. Eventually he trusts that there is a good reason to not poop in the house or just doesn't want to get smacked anymore. The relationship develops and the dog obeys, even if it is somewhat blindly.

Do some of the puppies who just can't seem to get it right get sent to Hell to burn for eternity?

[Pointedstick]

I think of the relationship of God to man as me from myself to a puppy. I wanted a relationship and got a puppy. The puppy disobeys by pooping on the floor. I smack it and bring it outside. It doesn't understand why I won't let him poop in the house. Eventually he trusts that there is a good reason to not poop in the house or just doesn't want to get smacked anymore. The relationship develops and the dog obeys, even if it is somewhat blindly.

I don't expect that you will condemn the puppy to an eternity of torture if he never stops pooping on the floor, though, right? I think people--myself included--get so hung up on Hell because of the eternal nature of it. If you mess up in this life, no second chances, no do-overs, and no end to the torment. There's something about that that just seems, I dunno, cosmically wrong and unjust.

[Greg]

Hello!  My name is Lucy.  I am an Australopithecus afarensis and I have hips that are made to be bipedal and toes that were made for dancing!  I couldn't climb a tree if I tried.

I have a nice big brain (bigger than a chimp's but smaller than yours), and I am lots of fun to hang out with.  I have an easy smile, a quick wit, and I keep myself reasonably well groomed.

Do you think there is a place in Heaven for me?  What would I have needed to do to get in?  Since I was gone way before Jesus showed up, would I have needed to convert to Judaism?  I could have done that.  I love Jewish people!

Didn't Judaism not start until 5th century BC with Abraham? They would have just believed in the pre-Abraham God.

Also interesting website: http://www.jesus-islam.org/Pages/Whoist ... raham.aspx

[Greg]

I think of the relationship of God to man as me from myself to a puppy. I wanted a relationship and got a puppy. The puppy disobeys by pooping on the floor. I smack it and bring it outside. It doesn't understand why I won't let him poop in the house. Eventually he trusts that there is a good reason to not poop in the house or just doesn't want to get smacked anymore. The relationship develops and the dog obeys, even if it is somewhat blindly.

Do some of the puppies who just can't seem to get it right get sent to Hell to burn for eternity?

We are given many chances to avoid pooping on the floor and we have the evidence that pooping on the floor gets us smacked. We have the freewill to choose to keep pooping on the floor.

[MediumTex]

Who do we think did all of those cave paintings?

Maybe some of Noah's family members?

I'm thinking that the surviving cave paintings must have come after Noah because I assume the Great Flood would have washed all of the existing cave paintings off the cave walls.

Speaking of Noah and his family, how do we get so much genetic diversity among humans today if we are all descended from Noah and his family just a few thousand years ago? 

Also, when Cain left the Garden, who did he marry?

[Greg]

Also, when Cain left the Garden, who did he marry?

One of his sisters. It was okay back then because:

1.) There wasn't someone saying you shouldn't do it
2.) There wasn't enough genetic abnormalities to make it a risk yet. Humans had perfect DNA but when they sinned, it slowly started getting errors in it. Also one of the reasons why humans were able to live so long in the beginning. They just had really good genes.

http://www.christiananswers.net/q-aig/aig-c004.html

[Pointedstick]

Do some of the puppies who just can't seem to get it right get sent to Hell to burn for eternity?

We are given many chances to avoid pooping on the floor and we have the evidence that pooping on the floor gets us smacked. We have the freewill to choose to keep pooping on the floor.

Is eternal torture after death an appropriate punishment for never stopping pooping on the floor in life?

[MediumTex]

I think of the relationship of God to man as me from myself to a puppy. I wanted a relationship and got a puppy. The puppy disobeys by pooping on the floor. I smack it and bring it outside. It doesn't understand why I won't let him poop in the house. Eventually he trusts that there is a good reason to not poop in the house or just doesn't want to get smacked anymore. The relationship develops and the dog obeys, even if it is somewhat blindly.

Do some of the puppies who just can't seem to get it right get sent to Hell to burn for eternity?

We are given many chances to avoid pooping on the floor and we have the evidence that pooping on the floor gets us smacked. We have the freewill to choose to keep pooping on the floor.

We are learning, though, that depending on brain chemistry, some people have much more ability to engage in disciplined behavior than other people, and this shows up in the ability to control impulsive behavior, which is what not pooping on the floor is all about. 

If we assume that some people are more genetically predisposed to impulse control than others, why would we punish someone for eternity because his brain simply wasn't configured for good impulse control?  What about mildly autistic people and others with mild mental wiring problems?  These people are going to poop on the floor all the time.  Is it just to Hell with them all?  That sounds kind of like Hitler's plan for a master race.  Is Heaven all about distilling humanity into a master race of immortals with outstanding impulse control and willingness to blindly follow an invisible leader?

[Greg]

I think of the relationship of God to man as me from myself to a puppy. I wanted a relationship and got a puppy. The puppy disobeys by pooping on the floor. I smack it and bring it outside. It doesn't understand why I won't let him poop in the house. Eventually he trusts that there is a good reason to not poop in the house or just doesn't want to get smacked anymore. The relationship develops and the dog obeys, even if it is somewhat blindly.

I don't expect that you will condemn the puppy to an eternity of torture if he never stops pooping on the floor, though, right? I think people--myself included--get so hung up on Hell because of the eternal nature of it. If you mess up in this life, no second chances, no do-overs, and no end to the torment. There's something about that that just seems, I dunno, cosmically wrong and unjust.

Puppies/dogs are given their whole lives to learn not to poop on the floor. If they can't figure this out by the end of their life to not poop on the floor, then what chance would it be they would learn it with their lifetime extended twice as long. What about 10x as long?

You are given plenty of time on earth to learn how to not poop on the floor. You just don't have an excuse if you don't figure it out by the end. (much like taking a test, if you don't finish by pencils down, thems the breaks sadly).

[Greg]

Do some of the puppies who just can't seem to get it right get sent to Hell to burn for eternity?

We are given many chances to avoid pooping on the floor and we have the evidence that pooping on the floor gets us smacked. We have the freewill to choose to keep pooping on the floor.

We are learning, though, that depending on brain chemistry, some people have much more ability to engage in disciplined behavior than other people, and this shows up in the ability to control impulsive behavior, which is what not pooping on the floor is all about. 

If we assume that some people are more genetically predisposed to impulse control than others, why would we punish someone for eternity because his brain simply wasn't configured for good impulse control?  What about mildly autistic people and others with mild mental wiring problems?  These people are going to poop on the floor all the time.  Is it just to Hell with them all?  That sounds kind of like Hitler's plan for a master race.  Is Heaven all about distilling humanity into a master race of immortals with outstanding impulse control and willingness to blindly follow an invisible leader?

Pooping on the floor is probably not a great example because it is a sin, not the act of faith in your human that owns you.

We will always poop on the floor, just because that's what we do due to poor impulse control, sometimes others are pooping on the floor and we want to join in, we're autistic and don't always realize we're pooping, etc.

What we do though is we come back to our master, even though we pooped on the floor to apologize. Due to the unconditional love though from our master, we'll be punished for pooping on the floor, but as long as we keep coming back to him rather than running away, we'll still get our warm bed and food in our bowls due to the relationship we have with our master.

[moda0306]

1.) God created humans that had the ability to obey or disobey. He is of a higher order than us, the creation doesn't understand the reasons of the creator for things.

Ah... ok... so we don't understand our creator.  How could we possibly.  However, religious folks DO assert they understand the creator via a book written by men who ASSERT that it is the word of God.

2.) Man wants to understand God, to be on the same level with Tree of Good and Evil. Man not content where he is, wants more.

Wait... we should NOT seek to understand God?  What are all these discussions about?  What is the definition of "wanting to understand God?"  First off, it presupposes his existence, and atheists/agnostics do not presuppose his existence, so if anyone is seeking to understand him, it is probably the most devout of us.

3.) God punishes man for not trusting him and being content where you are.

It seems to me many "aren't content," with where they are.  That's why we work, save, invest, etc.  Some strive to go to heaven, but once again, this is not agnostics/atheists.  It is Christians.  So who is really "not content where they are?"  Agnostics LOVE the earth... hell, we only have 80 years of life to enjoy it!

4.) Humans build tower of Babel, tries to reach heaven and to become more God-like
5.) God punishes man for trying to be too close to God, not being content with where they are
6.) Fast-forward a few millennia, Bible is created that tells us everything we need. States it is the written inspired word of God.

It doesn't "tell us everything we need."  Otherwise, we wouldn't have billions of people so utterly incorrectly trying to trust God.  It's filled with conflicting messages, so one needs to think hard about how to live the way God wants us to... or wait.. is that "trying to understand God?"  It seems you're projecting a bit with these assertions.  Further, if we trusted anything that it is the inspired word of God, we would have a lot of reading to do. 

7.) Man is not content with what is in Bible and wants more. Looks towards other religions/irreligion to understand the mind of God/meaning of life.

Some want more.  Some want clarification on what is there.  Some don't want anything at all because they see the bible as internally inconsistent, empirically ridiculous, and simply what some people wrote and asserted was true..

8.) God punishes man for trying to fully understand him to be like him, and we are sent to hell (separation from God).

What is all this punishment you speak of?  How do you know that our suffering, where it exists, isn't for some other reason (natural)?  And why is the punishment so unevenly laid out?  Some Indonesian kid drowns in a Monsoon and goes to hell for eternity, and a bunch of American agnostics get to live questioning God?  How do you explain that?  Oh wait... he works "in mysterious ways."  Funny how you know so much about what he wants if his motivations/actions are so mysterious in nature.

Seems to be a recurring theme that God gave us 1 cookie, we want more and reach out hands in to the jar, and we get smacked. We don't understand why he won't let us get more cookies; they are right there for the taking. God knows something that we don't know and that we never will know. We just have to trust in his higher authority that he understands what is best for us.

I think of the relationship of God to man as me from myself to a puppy. I wanted a relationship and got a puppy. The puppy disobeys by pooping on the floor. I smack it and bring it outside. It doesn't understand why I won't let him poop in the house. Eventually he trusts that there is a good reason to not poop in the house or just doesn't want to get smacked anymore. The relationship develops and the dog obeys, even if it is somewhat blindly.

These analogies really don't help.  Definitions and clarifications of points is very important.  Actual assertions about reality are very important. 


To your next post, if we're going to keep up this analogy not ALL puppies have their whole lives to realize to not pee on the floor.  Some die at a young age before learning the habit... and the penalty is eternal suffering.

Further, as humans go, what is there to learn other than "believe what these guys wrote in a book because the book says it is the Word of God?" That's not "learning."  That is faith (accepting truth in the absence of evidence).  At least the puppy has evidence (his interactions with the human, direct outdoor training, etc).  All we have is different books, and different interpretations of those books since they're so inconsistent.

[moda0306]

We are given many chances to avoid pooping on the floor and we have the evidence that pooping on the floor gets us smacked. We have the freewill to choose to keep pooping on the floor.

We are learning, though, that depending on brain chemistry, some people have much more ability to engage in disciplined behavior than other people, and this shows up in the ability to control impulsive behavior, which is what not pooping on the floor is all about. 

If we assume that some people are more genetically predisposed to impulse control than others, why would we punish someone for eternity because his brain simply wasn't configured for good impulse control?  What about mildly autistic people and others with mild mental wiring problems?  These people are going to poop on the floor all the time.  Is it just to Hell with them all?  That sounds kind of like Hitler's plan for a master race.  Is Heaven all about distilling humanity into a master race of immortals with outstanding impulse control and willingness to blindly follow an invisible leader?

Pooping on the floor is probably not a great example because it is a sin, not the act of faith in your human that owns you.

We will always poop on the floor, just because that's what we do due to poor impulse control, sometimes others are pooping on the floor and we want to join in, we're autistic and don't always realize we're pooping, etc.

What we do though is we come back to our master, even though we pooped on the floor to apologize. Due to the unconditional love though from our master, we'll be punished for pooping on the floor, but as long as we keep coming back to him rather than running away, we'll still get our warm bed and food in our bowls due to the relationship we have with our master.

How do you know all this, beyond trusting that a book written and interpreted by men is, in-fact, the Word of God?

And clarify for me, would you?  Is the 5 year old Buddhist kid in China who dies in a fire actively "pooping on the floor?"  Is he going to go to hell for eternity?

[MediumTex]

Also, when Cain left the Garden, who did he marry?

One of his sisters. It was okay back then because:

1.) There wasn't someone saying you shouldn't do it
2.) There wasn't enough genetic abnormalities to make it a risk yet. Humans had perfect DNA but when they sinned, it slowly started getting errors in it. Also one of the reasons why humans were able to live so long in the beginning. They just had really good genes.

http://www.christiananswers.net/q-aig/aig-c004.html

And then when Cain and his sister had kids, they just married each other as well I assume?

I'm not sure how you get today's genetic diversity from two original ancestors just a few thousand years ago.

[MediumTex]

If an autistic person can never really master the art of pooping in the right place, why does he need to go to God and ask for forgiveness?

It seems like God should be asking the autistic person for forgiveness for making such a defective person who can't figure out the right place to poop.

[moda0306]

Also, when Cain left the Garden, who did he marry?

One of his sisters. It was okay back then because:

1.) There wasn't someone saying you shouldn't do it
2.) There wasn't enough genetic abnormalities to make it a risk yet. Humans had perfect DNA but when they sinned, it slowly started getting errors in it. Also one of the reasons why humans were able to live so long in the beginning. They just had really good genes.

http://www.christiananswers.net/q-aig/aig-c004.html

Woah.

Didn't catch this before.

How do you know that:

1) Humans had perfect DNA?

2) It "slowly started getting errors in it" after they sinned?



Also, is incest ok today, in God's mind?  How do you know?

[MediumTex]

How did you get to Heaven before Abraham?

Wouldn't it suck to have been that last person to die before Heaven was opened up to people.

OTOH, how lucky was that first person to get in?  Talk about a charmed life!

Do you think that Heaven and Hell were opened up to people at the same time?  I assume they were, but it doesn't say that anywhere in the Bible.

[MachineGhost]

MediumTex's post brings up a point I've been recently trying to grapple with. The question I've had was when was Adam (the first human) created? Did he evolve from something else from the beginning of time and God just breathed a soul into him at that point, or did God directly intervene and create a human that was separate from the Neanderthal, etc.? I've also read whether the history in Genesis was allegorical or historical. Still trying to understand all of this stuff.

You need to back further to the origins of the stories in the Holy Bible.  Here's the best known example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epic_of_Gilgamesh

[MediumTex]

Also, when Cain left the Garden, who did he marry?

One of his sisters. It was okay back then because:

1.) There wasn't someone saying you shouldn't do it
2.) There wasn't enough genetic abnormalities to make it a risk yet. Humans had perfect DNA but when they sinned, it slowly started getting errors in it. Also one of the reasons why humans were able to live so long in the beginning. They just had really good genes.

http://www.christiananswers.net/q-aig/aig-c004.html

Woah.

Didn't catch this before.

How do you know that:

1) Humans had perfect DNA?

2) It "slowly started getting errors in it" after they sinned?

Also, is incest ok today, in God's mind?  How do you know?

Well, you've got to rationalize or explain all of this stuff somehow, and you can either reinterpret and reimagine your own beliefs in a way that explains it all, or you lose faith in your belief system because it ceases to make sense to you and you look for another explanation that makes more sense.

[MediumTex]

MediumTex's post brings up a point I've been recently trying to grapple with. The question I've had was when was Adam (the first human) created? Did he evolve from something else from the beginning of time and God just breathed a soul into him at that point, or did God directly intervene and create a human that was separate from the Neanderthal, etc.? I've also read whether the history in Genesis was allegorical or historical. Still trying to understand all of this stuff.

You need to back further to the origins of the stories in the Holy Bible.  Here's the best known example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epic_of_Gilgamesh

I thought that the stories in the Bible were not based on anything except God's message to humanity.

I always heard that God created the Epic of Gilgamesh after the fact just to test our faith.

[Greg]

Moda:

I'm digesting what you wrote and appreciate you critiquing my points. I myself am on the journey to better understand what I believe and why I believe what I believe and these conversations help with that.

As to your points - we are to make our decisions based on the available information we have. While it could be the wrong decision, we will not know until we die. The only way we can have confidence is by exploring the various options as much as we can and understanding why we are choosing that decision. Through studying, (or shear luck depending on the family you're born into), ideally you'll find the correct answer. That being said, I believe I have the correct answer, but I do not have proof of that. It's one of the reasons I have trouble truly trying to evangelize to others due to my own Thomas doubt. It's hard to recommend something if you're not positive about it. I even feel bad if I recommend a particular sandwich to someone and don't realize they are allergic to something when I recommend it, even if I thought it was the best sandwich in the world.

The Buddhist child wouldn't go to hell unless they have received the message/gift and choose not to accept it as the right answer.

MediumTex:

There is probably more to the story that we don't know about. Adam and Eve were spoken about, but we don't know if there were others around that were more genetically diverse that mated and had babies. This could be true but we don't have any paperwork on this.

If the Autistic person can't understand the message/gift that has been given to them, then I can't see them being held responsible for going to hell then. Unless the Autistic person can understand and actively choose not to accept the gift, I can't hold that against them. That being said, I do not understand God and he's got a different mindset than I do of what is considered as right and wrong.

[Pointedstick]

All of this would make so much more sense to me if Christians said something like, "look, I didn't make the rules, God did, and if He says that people who don't follow the rules go to Hell and burn forever, that's just the way the cookie crumbles. He's a wrathful God who wants compliance and isn't above a little torture and unfairness but hey, if you want to avoid being tortured in a lake of fire forever, you'd better do what he says!"

This would make perfect sense to me. Instead, I hear a lot about God's love and how He's so benevolent and kind, but none of the metaphysics of the way He set up the universe seem to correspond to any definition of love or benevolence that I've ever heard satisfactorily expressed.

[MachineGhost]

But Jesus said he was the only way to Heaven during his ministry.  Did he mean that this would be effective as soon as he died, or that it was already in effect when he said it?

All self-proclaimed prophets say that.  Why do we focus so much on Jesus in here when there's at least 44 other religions out there?  History is shaped and written by winners. If you know anything about random chance in terms of outperforming mutual funds, the same applies to religion.  Just by random chance, one of those thousand of Messianic stories preached by one of those thousands of self-proclaimed cult prophets in Roman times would have survived and won.

[MediumTex]

But Jesus said he was the only way to Heaven during his ministry.  Did he mean that this would be effective as soon as he died, or that it was already in effect when he said it?

All self-proclaimed prophets say that.  Why do we focus so much on Jesus in here when there's at least 44 other religions out there?  History is shaped and written by winners. If you know anything about random chance in terms of outperforming mutual funds, the same applies to religion.  Just by random chance, one of those thousand of Messianic stories preached by one of those thousands of self-proclaimed cult prophets in Roman times would have survived and won.

We focus on Jesus because he is the truth, the light and the way.  God created those 44 other religions just to test our faith in Jesus.

Isn't that obvious?