Gyroscopic Investing

Posted: **Wed Jun 10, 2015 9:38 pm**

I think that the place many people get to with religion is that it becomes a casual thing. It doesn't infect them enough that they begin to look down on all of the poor people in other religions who are going to Hell.

That kind of person can enjoy the benefits of religion--immortality with a good setup in the afterlife--without the mental drag that can start to set in when you begin to look too closely at your beliefs.

I have always marveled that Mormons were able to carry on with their faith when it has such a strange history. When I first learned about Mormon theology, I was thrilled because I thought that the existence of the golden plates that Joseph Smith dug up would be final proof that there is one true religion and I wanted to see them. Then I learned that no one has actually seen them, and that was a big letdown.

Posted: **Wed Jun 10, 2015 10:31 pm**

MediumTex wrote:If prior to Jesus's life, the only way to Heaven was by following the Jewish Law, and if after Jesus's death the only way to Heaven was through faith in Jesus Christ, do you think that there was a specific moment in time during Jesus's life where God went from only letting the Jewish Law people into Heaven to only letting the Faith in Jesus Christ people into Heaven, or do you think there was some kind of phase-in period?

The Christian position on this, as far as I know (and I'm surprised he didn't) is that Jews of all times were saved (or not) the same way we are (or not) now: by trusting in God's promises, particularly the promised Messiah. Before his coming, they were trusting the coming Messiah, and after, the Messiah who had come.

Posted: **Wed Jun 10, 2015 11:21 pm**

Xan wrote:
MediumTex wrote:If prior to Jesus's life, the only way to Heaven was by following the Jewish Law, and if after Jesus's death the only way to Heaven was through faith in Jesus Christ, do you think that there was a specific moment in time during Jesus's life where God went from only letting the Jewish Law people into Heaven to only letting the Faith in Jesus Christ people into Heaven, or do you think there was some kind of phase-in period?
The Christian position on this, as far as I know (and I'm surprised he didn't) is that Jews of all times were saved (or not) the same way we are (or not) now: by trusting in God's promises, particularly the promised Messiah. Before his coming, they were trusting the coming Messiah, and after, the Messiah who had come.

So if a Jewish person simply upholds the Jewish Law, will that get him into Heaven today? That would basically be part of an extended phase-in period, I guess.

And how about this law school exam question:

Assume a guy named Joey was a friend of Joseph's, and Joseph confided in Joey that Mary got pregnant with Jesus without them having sex, and Joey knew that Jesus was born in Bethlehem and he deduced that this must be the Messiah and at that point he stopped following the Jewish Law and instead vowed to follow Jesus when Jesus was still a baby. For the next 30 years or so, Jesus said nothing about being the Messiah, and therefore Joey had no instructions on what was needed for salvation, but he still was a committed follower of Jesus. Joey never actually did anything in pursuit of his Christian faith because Jesus never said anything about what it took for salvation during those years, but Joey believed for certain that Jesus was the Messiah, and Joey would have happily followed any teaching offered by Jesus if Jesus had been teaching during that period. If Joey died before Jesus actually started his worldly ministry, would Joey go to Heaven?

Posted: **Thu Jun 11, 2015 12:32 am**

MediumTex wrote:
Xan wrote:
MediumTex wrote:If prior to Jesus's life, the only way to Heaven was by following the Jewish Law, and if after Jesus's death the only way to Heaven was through faith in Jesus Christ, do you think that there was a specific moment in time during Jesus's life where God went from only letting the Jewish Law people into Heaven to only letting the Faith in Jesus Christ people into Heaven, or do you think there was some kind of phase-in period?
The Christian position on this, as far as I know (and I'm surprised he didn't) is that Jews of all times were saved (or not) the same way we are (or not) now: by trusting in God's promises, particularly the promised Messiah. Before his coming, they were trusting the coming Messiah, and after, the Messiah who had come.
So if a Jewish person simply upholds the Jewish Law, will that get him into Heaven today? That would basically be part of an extended phase-in period, I guess.

And how about this law school exam question:

Assume a guy named Joey was a friend of Joseph's, and Joseph confided in Joey that Mary got pregnant with Jesus without them having sex, and Joey knew that Jesus was born in Bethlehem and he deduced that this must be the Messiah and at that point he stopped following the Jewish Law and instead vowed to follow Jesus when Jesus was still a baby. For the next 30 years or so, Jesus said nothing about being the Messiah, and therefore Joey had no instructions on what was needed for salvation, but he still was a committed follower of Jesus. Joey never actually did anything in pursuit of his Christian faith because Jesus never said anything about what it took for salvation during those years, but Joey believed for certain that Jesus was the Messiah, and Joey would have happily followed any teaching offered by Jesus if Jesus had been teaching during that period. If Joey died before Jesus actually started his worldly ministry, would Joey go to Heaven?

Jesus was originally a jew. Jesus began preaching in his later years and saying he is the new way. This was verified through his resurrection to his disciples. Is there anything in Judaism that states what to do once the Messiah comes? I would think even if he thought he was the messiah, he should still keep on following Judaism until he learns about his crucifixion. Wouldn't this be the same question if Mary or Joseph died prior till Jesus was crucified? Wouldn't they know that he is the messiah and it'd make more sense to follow him rather than Judaism?

Posted: **Thu Jun 11, 2015 12:38 am**

MediumTex wrote: I have always marveled that Mormons were able to carry on with their faith when it has such a strange history. When I first learned about Mormon theology, I was thrilled because I thought that the existence of the golden plates that Joseph Smith dug up would be final proof that there is one true religion and I wanted to see them. Then I learned that no one has actually seen them, and that was a big letdown.

Mormonism is about as wacky as Scientology when you get deep into the Temple. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if Mormonism was the larval form for Hubbard's Scientology. Words can't really describe how utterly bizarre it all is. I guess there's certain things we all expect from a religion or it's just too weird.

Reality Check: http://judaism.about.com/od/judaismbasi ... -Jesus.htm

Posted: **Thu Jun 11, 2015 12:39 am**

Anyone have any thoughts on how the Neanderthal species fits in with God and humans?

Did Neanderthals have souls? Did God love them? Are there any Neanderthals in Heaven? If they aren't in Heaven, are they in Hell? Are they perhaps not immortal like us and thus they don't go anywhere when they die?

The Neanderthal brain was larger than ours, so it's probably safe to assume that they had a consciousness somewhat like ours.

For the folks who think that the Bible covers everything, where do the Neanderthals fit in with the Garden of Eden? I just don't feel right lumping the Neanderthals in with the other animals.

So I was feeling kind of down because of everything, and I decided to go to this church with a bunch of really nice-looking people and they had to have like this big meeting before they would let me in, and finally when they let me in they said I could attend the services, but that I needed to understand that I still probably wouldn't be able to get into Heaven because of, you know, my ancestry. They were like: "You might be able to get in if it turns out that the smarter animals are making it, but the human path probably won't be available to you." Even with all that, though, they said it was cool for me to come to their church. I felt like one of those dogs that hangs out somewhere long enough that the people kind of make him an honorary human, even though they all know he's still a dog. They even gave me a pamphlet on how to join the choir, but I didn't go back. It was clear that what they were doing was mainly for humans.

Posted: **Thu Jun 11, 2015 1:13 am**

MediumTex's post brings up a point I've been recently trying to grapple with. The question I've had was when was Adam (the first human) created? Did he evolve from something else from the beginning of time and God just breathed a soul into him at that point, or did God directly intervene and create a human that was separate from the Neanderthal, etc.? I've also read whether the history in Genesis was allegorical or historical. Still trying to understand all of this stuff.

Posted: **Thu Jun 11, 2015 1:58 am**

1NV35T0R (Greg) wrote:
MediumTex wrote:
Xan wrote: The Christian position on this, as far as I know (and I'm surprised he didn't) is that Jews of all times were saved (or not) the same way we are (or not) now: by trusting in God's promises, particularly the promised Messiah. Before his coming, they were trusting the coming Messiah, and after, the Messiah who had come.
So if a Jewish person simply upholds the Jewish Law, will that get him into Heaven today? That would basically be part of an extended phase-in period, I guess.

And how about this law school exam question:

Assume a guy named Joey was a friend of Joseph's, and Joseph confided in Joey that Mary got pregnant with Jesus without them having sex, and Joey knew that Jesus was born in Bethlehem and he deduced that this must be the Messiah and at that point he stopped following the Jewish Law and instead vowed to follow Jesus when Jesus was still a baby. For the next 30 years or so, Jesus said nothing about being the Messiah, and therefore Joey had no instructions on what was needed for salvation, but he still was a committed follower of Jesus. Joey never actually did anything in pursuit of his Christian faith because Jesus never said anything about what it took for salvation during those years, but Joey believed for certain that Jesus was the Messiah, and Joey would have happily followed any teaching offered by Jesus if Jesus had been teaching during that period. If Joey died before Jesus actually started his worldly ministry, would Joey go to Heaven?
Jesus was originally a jew. Jesus began preaching in his later years and saying he is the new way. This was verified through his resurrection to his disciples. Is there anything in Judaism that states what to do once the Messiah comes? I would think even if he thought he was the messiah, he should still keep on following Judaism until he learns about his crucifixion. Wouldn't this be the same question if Mary or Joseph died prior till Jesus was crucified? Wouldn't they know that he is the messiah and it'd make more sense to follow him rather than Judaism?

But Jesus said he was the only way to Heaven during his ministry. Did he mean that this would be effective as soon as he died, or that it was already in effect when he said it?

I like the phased-in approach, though there are still some situations that bother me. If a person is a Christian and believes all the right things, but then decides he wants to be a Jew and stops following the Christian recipe and starts following the Jewish Law, can he get into Heaven? I was thinking that there might be some kind of grandfathering provision where you had to be a Jew before "X" date in order to get into Heaven using a Jewish Law ticket.

Here is a tricky one: I believe that Paul said that once you are saved you are pretty much saved for good, unless you actively renounce the faith, in which case you definitely are no longer saved. If a Christian is a good Christian, but then gets disillusioned and becomes a Jew and starts following the Jewish Law instead of the New Testament Christian rules, he has clearly renounced his Christian faith, but because he is now following the Jewish Law, does he get in?

It's really weird to me that both Islam and Christianity borrowed their deity from Judaism, and then proceeded to build a theological system in which Jews are no longer allowed entry into Heaven. In fact, for reasons I'm not entirely clear on, many Muslims actually want to kill all of the Jews, and some of the Christians have a strong dislike for the Jews as well. Is that arrogant or what?

I think that part of the reason this stuff doesn't bother most Jews that much is because Jews don't really believe in Heaven to start with, so excluding them from Heaven isn't that big of a deal. I don't recall human immortality ever being mentioned in the Old Testament, other than perhaps something about Moses sitting at the right hand of God (or something like that). If there were a Heaven in the Old Testament, though, I don't think that King David would make it in, no matter how low you set the bar. That dude was a world class thug. His life reminds me of lyrics from a gangsta rap song:

You know how it's done?
Giant lurkin'
Rock in my sling
And now that giant's hurtin'
Down on the ground
And the blood is just a squirtin'
From the hole in his dome that who caused?
From the hole in his dome that who caused?
From the hole in his dome that who caused?

That's motherfuckin' right

King David is my name
And you better believe I got mad game
Whether I'm puttin' giants on their backs
Or just coordinatin' attacks
I turn my enemies to dust that swirls
As we make off with the plunder, and of course the girls

I got a special arrangement with God, you see
I do what I want, and he still loves me
We got crossways once, and it was over a bitch
My plan was clever as a weasel, but it ran into a hitch
I saw Bathsheba bathing, showing off her goods
So I gave it to her D-style, like we do in the hood
I gave it to her strong, but my game wasn't tight
I forgot she was married to Uriah the Hittite
No problem, though, I just sent Uriah to the battle
And when he got smoked, I made Bathsheba my chattel

Out of my wives she was just one of thirty
But everyone knew that she was the most dirty
I settled in and oh how I hit it
When Nathan the Prophet showed up and said God wanted me to quit it
I made like I was sorry, but God needed more
So he killed our first baby when it came out the door
But with the Uriah debt paid I kept on with Bathsheba
And fellas let me tell you, that bitch was a keepa

I knocked her up with Solomon, smartest dude in the world
But then I got old, and the drama just swirled
For Adonijah my oldest I had envisioned the throne
Alas! It was not to be, I should have known
Bathsheba had schemed and planned it all out
Her seed was Solomon and she gave him the clout
To step to the palace when my time had run out

So what is my message to all the players out there?
If you see a hot piece bathing, try not to stare
Because it may not be worth it, but then again it just might
Depending on how you feel about doing what's right
Didn't bother me none, and that's why I hit it like a king
I hit it like my jimmy was a rock from my sling
Cause I'm the king baby and that's how I roll
I'm God's boy and that's all that matters in this motherfuckin' show

Posted: **Thu Jun 11, 2015 6:21 am**

MediumTex wrote: Anyone have any thoughts on how the Neanderthal species fits in with God and humans?

Did Neanderthals have souls? Did God love them? Are there any Neanderthals in Heaven? If they aren't in Heaven, are they in Hell? Are they perhaps not immortal like us and thus they don't go anywhere when they die?

The Neanderthal brain was larger than ours, so it's probably safe to assume that they had a consciousness somewhat like ours.

For the folks who think that the Bible covers everything, where do the Neanderthals fit in with the Garden of Eden? I just don't feel right lumping the Neanderthals in with the other animals.

From my perspective, there are at least two scenarios we should consider before answering your questions:

1. God created Neanderthal, dinosaur, etc. fossils as we see them today - i.e. there may never have been live creatures.

2. God created the Neanderthal living creatures as you describe above.

Which scenario requires faith to believe it is the correct scenario? 1? 2? 1 and 2? Neither 1 or 2? Why do you give that answer and what is it one must have faith in to believe one or other of the scenarios, or neither scenario?

... Mountaineer

Posted: **Thu Jun 11, 2015 7:16 am**

MediumTex wrote:
1NV35T0R (Greg) wrote:
MediumTex wrote: So if a Jewish person simply upholds the Jewish Law, will that get him into Heaven today? That would basically be part of an extended phase-in period, I guess.

And how about this law school exam question:

Assume a guy named Joey was a friend of Joseph's, and Joseph confided in Joey that Mary got pregnant with Jesus without them having sex, and Joey knew that Jesus was born in Bethlehem and he deduced that this must be the Messiah and at that point he stopped following the Jewish Law and instead vowed to follow Jesus when Jesus was still a baby. For the next 30 years or so, Jesus said nothing about being the Messiah, and therefore Joey had no instructions on what was needed for salvation, but he still was a committed follower of Jesus. Joey never actually did anything in pursuit of his Christian faith because Jesus never said anything about what it took for salvation during those years, but Joey believed for certain that Jesus was the Messiah, and Joey would have happily followed any teaching offered by Jesus if Jesus had been teaching during that period. If Joey died before Jesus actually started his worldly ministry, would Joey go to Heaven?
Jesus was originally a jew. Jesus began preaching in his later years and saying he is the new way. This was verified through his resurrection to his disciples. Is there anything in Judaism that states what to do once the Messiah comes? I would think even if he thought he was the messiah, he should still keep on following Judaism until he learns about his crucifixion. Wouldn't this be the same question if Mary or Joseph died prior till Jesus was crucified? Wouldn't they know that he is the messiah and it'd make more sense to follow him rather than Judaism?
But Jesus said he was the only way to Heaven during his ministry. Did he mean that this would be effective as soon as he died, or that it was already in effect when he said it?

I like the phased-in approach, though there are still some situations that bother me. If a person is a Christian and believes all the right things, but then decides he wants to be a Jew and stops following the Christian recipe and starts following the Jewish Law, can he get into Heaven? I was thinking that there might be some kind of grandfathering provision where you had to be a Jew before "X" date in order to get into Heaven using a Jewish Law ticket.

Here is a tricky one: I believe that Paul said that once you are saved you are pretty much saved for good, unless you actively renounce the faith, in which case you definitely are no longer saved. If a Christian is a good Christian, but then gets disillusioned and becomes a Jew and starts following the Jewish Law instead of the New Testament Christian rules, he has clearly renounced his Christian faith, but because he is now following the Jewish Law, does he get in?

It's really weird to me that both Islam and Christianity borrowed their deity from Judaism, and then proceeded to build a theological system in which Jews are no longer allowed entry into Heaven. In fact, for reasons I'm not entirely clear on, many Muslims actually want to kill all of the Jews, and some of the Christians have a strong dislike for the Jews as well. Is that arrogant or what?

I think that part of the reason this stuff doesn't bother most Jews that much is because Jews don't really believe in Heaven to start with, so excluding them from Heaven isn't that big of a deal. I don't recall human immortality ever being mentioned in the Old Testament, other than perhaps something about Moses sitting at the right hand of God (or something like that). If there were a Heaven in the Old Testament, though, I don't think that King David would make it in, no matter how low you set the bar. That dude was a world class thug. His life reminds me of lyrics from a gangsta rap song:

You know how it's done?
Giant lurkin'
Rock in my sling
And now that giant's hurtin'
Down on the ground
And the blood is just a squirtin'
From the hole in his dome that who caused?
From the hole in his dome that who caused?
From the hole in his dome that who caused?

That's motherfuckin' right

King David is my name
And you better believe I got mad game
Whether I'm puttin' giants on their backs
Or just coordinatin' attacks
I turn my enemies to dust that swirls
As we make off with the plunder, and of course the girls

I got a special arrangement with God, you see
I do what I want, and he still loves me
We got crossways once, and it was over a bitch
My plan was clever as a weasel, but it ran into a hitch
I saw Bathsheba bathing, showing off her goods
So I gave it to her D-style, like we do in the hood
I gave it to her strong, but my game wasn't tight
I forgot she was married to Uriah the Hittite
No problem, though, I just sent Uriah to the battle
And when he got smoked, I made Bathsheba my chattel

Out of my wives she was just one of thirty
But everyone knew that she was the most dirty
I settled in and oh how I hit it
When Nathan the Prophet showed up and said God wanted me to quit it
I made like I was sorry, but God needed more
So he killed our first baby when it came out the door
But with the Uriah debt paid I kept on with Bathsheba
And fellas let me tell you, that bitch was a keepa

I knocked her up with Solomon, smartest dude in the world
But then I got old, and the drama just swirled
For Adonijah my oldest I had envisioned the throne
Alas! It was not to be, I should have known
Bathsheba had schemed and planned it all out
Her seed was Solomon and she gave him the clout
To step to the palace when my time had run out

So what is my message to all the players out there?
If you see a hot piece bathing, try not to stare
Because it may not be worth it, but then again it just might
Depending on how you feel about doing what's right
Didn't bother me none, and that's why I hit it like a king
I hit it like my jimmy was a rock from my sling
Cause I'm the king baby and that's how I roll
I'm God's boy and that's all that matters in this motherfuckin' show

MT,

I am going to bold in red the parts in the above posts for ease of commenting. You have interesting questions. I also enjoy the discussion. It is nice to have a place where we can have an adult discussion and not devolve into a heated screamfest or feeding frenzy of sharks trying to consume each other.

Following is what I believe.

1. God's Law in the First and Second Testaments (Law = what God tells us we must do) is impossible to perfectly follow for us humans, even if you discount evil thoughts and count only evil deeds - the only person who ever perfectly followed the Law was Jesus. Thus, no one will achieve salvation by that method whether Jewish, gentile, or a one-time Christian who stopped believing and reverted to Judism.

2. Belief in God's promises (Gospel = belief in what God did for you and promises to do for those who believe) is the method to achieve salvation. Repentance when one errs (as we all do) plus belief in the promises gets you in. Thus, David will make it, just like the rest of us sinners (every human on the planet past, present, and future) who repent and believe in God's promises.

3. God is one - God is three persons (see Apostles, Niceen, Anathasian Creeds for more detail). Thus, when Jesus says "I am the way" that is God speaking just as God spoke directly or indirectly in the First Testament, e.g. to Moses, Noah, Abraham, etc. Those who saw the resurrected Jesus and refused to believe what he told them - uh oh, just as with those who refused to believe in the God of the First Testament and fell away. By the way, God of the First Testament is exactly the same as the God of the Second Testament - the pre-incarnate Jesus was there in Genesis 1. Those who have heard the "evidence" about the resurrected Jesus and refuse to believe - uh oh, just as those in the First Testament who heard about the "evidence" of God's existence and discarded it. Those who have not yet heard, that is God's business and I don't know (there are a lot of people in that category past and present and probably future - those not living in the middle East prior to Jesus coming, still born babies, mentally unstable people, currently those in remote regions who have not heard, etc.) God does say that all will have the opportunity to hear before the Last Day and since God is all powerful who knows what methods he uses to enable hearing. This is similar to asking why an author chooses write a particular book and not others, write about particular characters but not others, write about certain locations and not others, etc. - who knows? God chose to come to a certain people (Israel), document his Word in a certain book (Bible), and call certain people (Pastors) to proclaim his Word and administer the Means of Grace, to bring salvation to the world - why did he not pick another group or book or people - only God knows. This is the hidden side of God that many want to know about - the hidden God is a wrathful God and we are unable to face him. Thankfully, he chose to reveal himself in human form (Jesus the Word) that we can be in the presense of. I'm just thankful that he chose to reveal everything we need for salvation in his Word, it just is not everything we want.

... Mountaineer

Edit: The gangsta rap song you quoted is from the perspective of one embeded in the Law. That is, as I've said before, where most religions other than Christianity are, and even some Christian denominations. It is focused on behavior, not on faith in the promises of God. Thanks be to God, it is not about us, it is about what God did; we don't have salvation by the Law, or heaven would be very lonely and hell very crowded.

Posted: **Thu Jun 11, 2015 8:30 am**

MT, nobody has EVER been saved by following Jewish law, simply because nobody ever succeeded in following it. People are saved by trusting God, particularly in his Messiah, whether that was in the future or in the past. So there really isn't a discontinuity.

Posted: **Thu Jun 11, 2015 8:45 am**

MediumTex wrote: <snip>
Mountaineer has been so generous with his contributions and I appreciate that so much, and like so many of you he is obviously a highly intelligent and mature person, and yet I don't understand how he anchors his beliefs inside his mind. I don't know how those beliefs stay attached in the mind of a person who has a reasonable amount of skepticism in other areas of his life.

I've always wondered how religious actuaries could do their jobs in good conscience knowing that virtually all risk models do not include any probability of a supernatural event having an effect on the the property and events with respect to which they are calculating risk. There is the old story about the FAA requiring all pilot teams to have at least one non-Christian in case the Rapture occurs during a flight, but if you are a risk manager who believes in the Rapture, why wouldn't you want to make sure there was a non-Christian on every pilot team, and implement a rule that a non-Christian pilot can NEVER be converted to Christianity during a flight. If that were the rule, though, sooner or later a non-Christian pilot would tell his Christian co-pilot that he wants to become a Christian in the middle of a flight and the co-pilot would say, per company policy, he must wait until they land, but the non-Christian pilot then has a heart attack and dies before the flight lands and he winds up in Hell instead of Heaven. The Christian risk manager would have to carry that around for the rest of his life--his Rapture risk management policy would have cost that poor pilot his eternal salvation. Doh!

Point 1: It is easy for me. Truth in any arena is truth. My skepticism is in play only when I don't understand one of those arenas sufficiently to make a determination of whether something is truthful. Christianity is truth. Problem solved.

Point 2: I am not a proponent of the rapture - the rapture scenario is relatively recent - mid-eighteen hundreds if I remember correctly, and tied to dispensational premillennialism. I am an amillennialist. I believe Christ is only coming back one time as the Scriptures say; rapture hypothesis requires two times if I understand it correctly. As an aside, regardless of the beliefs of the pilot and the passengers, when Christ returns, in the blink of an eye, it's all over anyway. We are living in the end times now (ever since the crucifixion) and the Last Day is at hand when Christ returns and it is too late to change your belief one way or the other.

Point 3 - not in your above post: From one of your earlier posts about Santa Claus and not being able to return to the time when you believe in Santa - I relate that to the story about the Genie and the bottle. Once the Genie is out, only the Genie can put himself back in the bottle. Once a person is dead on the operating table, he is dead - he cannot revive himself - only an external means can do that (i.e. the surgeon). Likewise, only God can restore your faith that you once had. His chosen method that he tells us is for you to hear the Word and he has told us how that happens - Hear the Word proclaimed, receive the Means of Grace, read his Word. The Holy Spirit's role is to make Jesus known to you; the HS was given to you at your Baptism, completely free of charge, a wonderful gift.

... Mountaineer

Posted: **Thu Jun 11, 2015 8:56 am**

Xan wrote: MT, nobody has EVER been saved by following Jewish law, simply because nobody ever succeeded in following it. People are saved by trusting God, particularly in his Messiah, whether that was in the future or in the past. So there really isn't a discontinuity.

So before Jesus was born, all (or nearly all) Jews went to Hell?

Posted: **Thu Jun 11, 2015 9:07 am**

Pointedstick wrote:
Xan wrote: MT, nobody has EVER been saved by following Jewish law, simply because nobody ever succeeded in following it. People are saved by trusting God, particularly in his Messiah, whether that was in the future or in the past. So there really isn't a discontinuity.
So before Jesus was born, all (or nearly all) Jews went to Hell?

No. See Xan and my earlier posts. It is all about trusting God and his promises - for EVERYONE, not just the Jews (a term that did not originate until the Babyonian capitivity if I remember correctly).

... Mountaineer

Posted: **Thu Jun 11, 2015 9:36 am**

Pointedstick wrote:
Xan wrote: MT, nobody has EVER been saved by following Jewish law, simply because nobody ever succeeded in following it. People are saved by trusting God, particularly in his Messiah, whether that was in the future or in the past. So there really isn't a discontinuity.
So before Jesus was born, all (or nearly all) Jews went to Hell?

Just the opposite. I'm not sure how you're reading that into what I'm saying.

Posted: **Thu Jun 11, 2015 9:55 am**

Xan wrote:
Pointedstick wrote:
Xan wrote: MT, nobody has EVER been saved by following Jewish law, simply because nobody ever succeeded in following it. People are saved by trusting God, particularly in his Messiah, whether that was in the future or in the past. So there really isn't a discontinuity.
So before Jesus was born, all (or nearly all) Jews went to Hell?
Just the opposite. I'm not sure how you're reading that into what I'm saying.

So all Jews only started going to hell after Jesus was born? Or after He died?

Posted: **Thu Jun 11, 2015 10:17 am**

Xan wrote:
Pointedstick wrote:
Xan wrote: MT, nobody has EVER been saved by following Jewish law, simply because nobody ever succeeded in following it. People are saved by trusting God, particularly in his Messiah, whether that was in the future or in the past. So there really isn't a discontinuity.
So before Jesus was born, all (or nearly all) Jews went to Hell?
Just the opposite. I'm not sure how you're reading that into what I'm saying.

Xan,

Several times in the bible, if memory serves, it was stated that your ACTIONS, not just your relationship with God, determine whether you go to Hell or not.

But even assuming that is incorrect, when God became man via Jesus Christ, it seems to me that those who didn't believe Jesus was God all of a sudden would have LOST their trusting of God (perhaps inadvertently). And this gets back to a question we've asked before and gotten mixed answers on... what happened to all those people that didn't believe Jesus was the Messiah AFTER he declared it so! There are a TON of people that died that either hadn't even heard of Jesus' existence, or that simply heard it via rumor. If they didn't believe those rumors or didn't hear them, do they go to hell?

If not, when would they have started going to hell?

I'm sure there's a "God works in mysterious ways" argument coming soon here. Which is an odd one to make, because some Christians seem to be very, very clear on what God wants from us. It's no "mystery" for them... until they can't answer questions like the ones MT and I (and others) pose from time to time... then all of a sudden God becomes "mysterious." If God is so mysterious, perhaps his motivation for all his intervention in the reality of mankind is to test our ability to use reason (the most observably useful tool he gave us) rather than faith (a relatively animalistic-but-internally-motivating tool that gets us into all sorts of trouble in the empirically observable world, anyway) to determine truth. I can't imagine God would give us the ability to use reason/consistency (which is difficult but works in the physical world), then ask us to set it aside and find religious truth based on the antithesis of that (faith, which in every other area of life is code word for "makes me feel good"), and send to eternal damnation anyone who doesn't use said unreliable tool (on what ends up being the right religion... forget all the others someone is presented with). I believe if there is a God it is almost undeniable that he works in mysterious ways. There's simply no other way to put all the mystery he has shrouded the world in. If it's not a mystery, and there's so much evidence for it, faith is unnecessary. The real question is, what do we do about that mystery? If there is a lot of mystery, and a lot of the facts around creation or Jesus or other things in the Bible may or may not be true, then YOU are asking us to trust your (perhaps true) vision of God on faith. God is not us (at least not in any way that is defined in a traditional sense)... religious PEOPLE are, via a book that could be a lie. They then say "trust God." When God reveals himself to me via something more concrete and actionable than books and religions written and established by men, then I may have something to "trust" that isn't another human being on faith. But until then, I think you're fooling yourself if you think you are "trusting God." You are trusting your senses, first and foremost that 1) there is a God, and 2) you've found the right book that explains his past and wishes (forget for a second that it's arguably scientifically quite ridiculous, and inconsistent with itself), and 3) you've found the right interpretations of that book. Assuming THOSE facts, which you've used your senses to determine as truth FIRST, only THEN can you assert that you are simply "trusting God." There's no mechanism to determine trust before you hear/read and interpret the truth of the words of the Bible. At that point, to you, it might be one in the same as "trusting God," but the ultimate trust is in your infallable ability to interpret reality not based on evidence that others around you can agree with, but based on a feeling you have (perhaps truly) discovered God. It can be no other way. You can't claim that you soul receives information from God, and then deny that you have a role in taking in and processing that message. If you can acknowledge that fact, then it calls into question your ABILITY to CORRECTLY interpret the message that you are receiving. To the extent you KNOW God exists, you're implying that you have a 0% chance of incorrectly interpreting reality. Last I checked, nobody could claim that unless they can claim themselves quasi-omniscient.

Sorry if that sounded a bit offensive. I'm just pointing out the contradictions (as I see them) as bluntly as I can so you can address them as clearly as you can. I know we've treaded over this before. Hopefully this time around we'll tighten up our thoughts a bit more.

Posted: **Thu Jun 11, 2015 10:59 am**

moda0306 wrote:
<snip>
It's no "mystery" for them... until they can't answer questions like the ones MT and I (and others) pose from time to time... then all of a sudden God becomes "mysterious."
<snip>

moda, no offense intended, but are you certain these questions have not been answered, or is it possible you don't like the answers and have obliterated those answers from memory?

The language of your previous post indicates that you wish to be in charge ... that just ain't the way it works, my friend. God just wants you to let him be God.

... Mountaineer

Posted: **Thu Jun 11, 2015 11:11 am**

Mountaineer,

It IS possible that I don't like the "answers." But if these answers exist simply as a hunch called Faith, or the holy spirit within my body, then it begs the next question, which is, "am I interpreting this presence correctly?"

Which again adds to the mystery. And if I can "obliterate answers from my memory," there we have even more mystery.

I don't want to be in charge... or perhaps I don't know what that even means... in another thread I've admitted that I'm sympathetic to the idea that ALL our actions are predetermined by our physiological workings, so I barely am confident I'm even "in charge" of my own actions.

All I do is interpret reality, take actions within that supposed reality, and (as it pertains to this discussion) make or disassemble arguments about the nature of reality. To the degree that I actually EXIST, and can use reason/logic to make arguments, that is all I am in charge of. The rest is a big series of seeming realities and seeming mysteries floating around me.

Posted: **Thu Jun 11, 2015 11:30 am**

moda0306 wrote: Mountaineer,

It IS possible that I don't like the "answers." But if these answers exist simply as a hunch called Faith, or the holy spirit within my body, then it begs the next question, which is, "am I interpreting this presence correctly?"

Which again adds to the mystery. And if I can "obliterate answers from my memory," there we have even more mystery.

I don't want to be in charge... or perhaps I don't know what that even means... in another thread I've admitted that I'm sympathetic to the idea that ALL our actions are predetermined by our physiological workings, so I barely am confident I'm even "in charge" of my own actions.

All I do is interpret reality, take actions within that supposed reality, and (as it pertains to this discussion) make or disassemble arguments about the nature of reality. To the degree that I actually EXIST, and can use reason/logic to make arguments, that is all I am in charge of. The rest is a big series of seeming realities and seeming mysteries floating around me.

Rhetorical question: Are you even sure of that?

FWIW, I am in the predestination camp, just not the double predestination one. And, perhaps for different reasons than you; but I am a chemical engineer - there's a chemical connection for you while you figure out the Matrix.

... Mountaineer

Posted: **Thu Jun 11, 2015 11:45 am**

Mountaineer,

I'm not sure of that. Hence the phrase at the beginning, "to the extent that I actually exist." I meant that to indicate its potential non-truth. Sounds weird to say, but when you get meta-physical, anything is possible. We could all be in the matrix or something I can't even imagine.

However, we almost have to acknowledge some sort of subjective existence as an axiom before digging into any topic, so it sort of goes unsaid. But if we acknowledge the physical world around us as an axiom (for now), and our senses we use to interpret it, we quickly enter a world where deductive and inductive logic is extremely useful to discovering truth. They're simply the only useful tools we have, assuming our senses (and words and definitions) are at all useful in organizing our interpretation of reality. If our senses are NOT useful to that end, then any sense of a creator or understanding of a book/gospel is equally meaningless. Can't escape it... reality doesn't get to bend to our whims at any moment to fit our immediate statement (or if it does, this should be stated as an axiom for the purpose of clarity and organizing our thoughts on reality, but once again, if reality is fleeting with our whims, then even this is self-imploding as an axiom is considered a fundamental truth for the purpose of discussion, not a switch you can turn on and off).

Posted: **Thu Jun 11, 2015 12:49 pm**

Were Adam and Eve Cro-Magnon?

If we are trying to match up Genesis with what we know about prehistoric people, consider this narrative:

Adam and Eve were Cro-Magnon. They were sort of like Fred and Wilma Flintstone, except they didn't wear any clothes.

After Eve ate the fruit and they started wearing clothes, she was walking in the Garden one day and she found a little Neanderthal baby and they adopted it and named it Cain. With the adopted baby around it made Eve want one of her own and she gave birth to Abel. Cain, being Neanderthal, was more brutish and less urbane than his Cro-Magnon family, and one day he got pissed off at Abel and beat him to death with a shovel.

God had already hinted around that he didn't like Neanderthals as much as he liked Cro-Magnon people, so Cain wasn't surprised when God kicked him out of the Garden and proceeded to wipe out his whole species.

What do you think? It's a way to work Neanderthals into the historical narrative.

Posted: **Thu Jun 11, 2015 12:50 pm**

Does anyone believe that God buried all of those dinosaur bones just to test our faith in Him?

Posted: **Thu Jun 11, 2015 12:53 pm**

Desert wrote: So yeah, I think there will be Neanderthals in heaven. The good news? Body hair removal will be painless and free in heaven.

Will those streets of gold have any laser hair removal clinics? Will the salons do waxing?

Posted: **Thu Jun 11, 2015 12:59 pm**

MediumTex wrote: Does anyone believe that God buried all of those dinosaur bones just to test our faith in Him?

Not me. In fact, to the degree that there is a God and he's testing us, I can't come to any reliable conclusion other than that he's testing our reason with calls for faith rather than vice versa.

However, if I were to have any input on the process, I would hope sincerely that he wouldn't burn anyone in hell for eternity for not adhering to logic/reason enough, and failing the test. In fact, I want some of Desert's brisket, and in heaven there is no heart disease, so let 'em all in!

Gyroscopic Investing

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