Gyroscopic Investing

rocketdog wrote:

Gumby wrote: Pastures, in the sun, are cleaner than indoors.

Possibly, although I'm not sure how anyone could verify that?  I mean, cow poop is cow poop, regardless of where it lays.  And a pasture can't be mucked out and hosed down like a barn or stable can.

Nope. The sun sterilizes, dries and degrades the poop — it becomes dried fertilizer. Then the rain degrades it into the soil. And again, a farmer who wants to keep his pasture in good shape (and avoid burned-out pastures) will rotate the cows to clean sections each day while letting the chickens pick and spread out the manure. The chickens literally turn a pile of poop into a large spread out area that quickly becomes fertilizer. Of course, that technique is only used by farmers who know what they are doing.

rocketdog wrote:

Gumby wrote: And a farmer worth his salt knows to rotate pastures and let chickens in to pick at and spread out the poop. Any farmer that sells raw milk is cleaning the udders. They have to — if they want to keep their business running.

Having lived most of my life within a mile or two of a dairy farm, I've never once seen chickens out in the cow pasture.  Maybe they sneek out there at night and go cow-tipping?

In other words, you are basing your knowledge on your casual observation of a local dairy farm?

Rocketdog, what I'm speaking of is a technique that is used on the highest quality farms (clearly not what you live next to).

Flash Light Farm wrote:Rotational Grazing - We manage our farm based on a rotational grazing program. The chickens play a vital role in this program as they follow the cattle around the pastures. The chickens scratch in the natural fertilizer left behind by the cows. This provides optimal distribution of the cow manure without the use of a tractor and drag and allows the sun to sanitize any pathogens which might be present in the manure. The chickens also consume the fly larvae that accumulate from the cattle. This activity provides a natural protein source for the chicken's diet while significantly reducing the fly problem normally associated with cattle.

Source: http://www.flashlightfarm.com/Pasture-R ... icken.html

...and...

The Wayne-Egenolf Farm wrote:Chickens are excellent at enhancing the fertility of our pastures.  They do this in two ways.  First, by foraging through the pasture sward dropping and spreading their own fertile waste.  Second, by tearing apart the cow manure left behind days prior so that it may be more easily taken below ground by dung beetles and absorbed during rains before all that precious nitrogen is lost to the atmosphere.  The reason they spread the cow’s manure is to access and eat all the fly and bug larvae growing inside.  These larvae are a protein-rich food for the chickens.  Through their consumption fly population cycles are broken and the cattle are not bothered by them.  Further, cattle parasites are destroyed along with the dung patty, with no harm to the chicken, and the pasture is essentially sanitized.  This symbiosis is the same that exists on the great savannas of the world.

Source: http://wefarmlocal.com/?page_id=238

Make sense?

rocketdog wrote:

Gumby wrote: Homogenization makes the fat molecules a lot smaller than they should be. It probably screws up the way the fat is digested.

Maybe, maybe not.  I know there are hypotheses out there regarding this possibility, but so far I've been unable to find any studies demonstrating a health detriment related to homogenization.

Right, so personally I'll stick with the natural version that people have been drinking safely for the past 10,000 years.

TennPaGa wrote: Another milk question for Gumby:

Is the vitamin content different between milk that is high temperature/short time pasteurized vs. batch pasteurized (which is a little cooler and alot longer, as I understand)?

The high temperature stuff is pretty bad from what I understand, but I don't know exact vitamin content. My understanding is that the vitamins survive the low-temp heat pretty well, but the "carrier proteins" are damaged. So, the side-by-side comparison of vitamin content will look very similar between raw and batch-pasteurized milk — but the vitamins are far less bioavailable in the pasteurized milk due to the lack of carrier proteins.

TennPaGa wrote:Just thinking about the chemical reactions... Time+temperature in general kills bacteria and degrades vitamins, but it stands to reason that different time+temperature profiles affect each substance (bacteria, vitamins) differently.

Agreed. I know that batch-pasteurized is far, far better than high-temp. The only reason why the dairy does high-temp pasteurization is to increase shelf life.

moda0306 wrote: Gumby,

What do you think of venison?  I think getting a bunch would be a great way for me to get access to a naturally fed animal who wasn't tortured its whole life to feed me.

I think venison is great. It really just comes down to what the animal was eating. Unless it was farmed, it would be eating a very diverse diet.

Gumby wrote:

rocketdog wrote:

Gumby wrote: Pastures, in the sun, are cleaner than indoors.

Possibly, although I'm not sure how anyone could verify that?  I mean, cow poop is cow poop, regardless of where it lays.  And a pasture can't be mucked out and hosed down like a barn or stable can.

Nope. The sun sterilizes, dries and degrades the poop — it becomes dried fertilizer. Then the rain degrades it into the soil. And again, a farmer who wants to keep his pasture in good shape (and avoid burned-out pastures) will rotate the cows to clean sections each day while letting the chickens pick and spread out the manure. The chickens literally turn a pile of poop into a large spread out area that quickly becomes fertilizer. Of course, that technique is only used by farmers who know what they are doing.

Where are all of these magical farms of which you speak, where the cows don't lay down on or step in their own poop before it's thoroughly sterilized by the sun, after which an organized army of chickens efficiently spreads the newly sterilized poop evenly throughout the pasture, followed by crystal clear raindrops joyfully washing the fertilizer deep into the rich, fertile soil where it then nourishes the hungry roots of organically grown grass, all while the cows lazily graze on a nearby pasture until their udders are carefully sterilized by loving farmers who gently milk them while softly singing "Kumbaya" which wards off the need to pasturize their products because no bacteria or virus would dare invade their hallowed halls?

The Wayne-Egenolf Farm wrote:Chickens are excellent at enhancing the fertility of our pastures.  They do this in two ways.  First, by foraging through the pasture sward dropping and spreading their own fertile waste.  Second, by tearing apart the cow manure left behind days prior so that it may be more easily taken below ground by dung beetles and absorbed during rains before all that precious nitrogen is lost to the atmosphere.  The reason they spread the cow’s manure is to access and eat all the fly and bug larvae growing inside.  These larvae are a protein-rich food for the chickens.  Through their consumption fly population cycles are broken and the cattle are not bothered by them.  Further, cattle parasites are destroyed along with the dung patty, with no harm to the chicken, and the pasture is essentially sanitized.  This symbiosis is the same that exists on the great savannas of the world.

Source: http://wefarmlocal.com/?page_id=238

Right... and tobacco products aren't harmful... because a tobacco farmer told me so!

rocketdog wrote: Where are all of these magical farms of which you speak, where the cows don't lay down on or step in their own poop before it's thoroughly sterilized by the sun, after which an organized army of chickens efficiently spreads the newly sterilized poop evenly throughout the pasture, followed by crystal clear raindrops joyfully washing the fertilizer deep into the rich, fertile soil where it then nourishes the hungry roots of organically grown grass, all while the cows lazily graze on a nearby pasture until their udders are carefully sterilized by loving farmers who gently milk them while softly singing "Kumbaya" which wards off the need to pasturize their products because no bacteria or virus would dare invade their hallowed halls?

Plenty of them in Amish and Mennonite Country, and among other traditional farmers.  They might not all sing kumbaya, but the rest is generally the case.

Also, it's only been in recent decades that Americans have been terrified of excrement in all its forms.  In the past, manure was simply another benefit from pastured cattle, the more the merrier, nothing to be feared. (The stuff produced by grain and soy fed cattle is a total catastrophe and needs to be feared, as it is often deadly.)

Amish farms that sell to the public usually have an open day, usually after harvests, but before it gets cold, when you can visit and have a look at their operations.

smurff wrote:

rocketdog wrote: Where are all of these magical farms of which you speak, where the cows don't lay down on or step in their own poop before it's thoroughly sterilized by the sun, after which an organized army of chickens efficiently spreads the newly sterilized poop evenly throughout the pasture, followed by crystal clear raindrops joyfully washing the fertilizer deep into the rich, fertile soil where it then nourishes the hungry roots of organically grown grass, all while the cows lazily graze on a nearby pasture until their udders are carefully sterilized by loving farmers who gently milk them while softly singing "Kumbaya" which wards off the need to pasturize their products because no bacteria or virus would dare invade their hallowed halls?

Plenty of them in Amish and Mennonite Country, and among other traditional farmers.  They might not all sing kumbaya, but the rest is generally the case.

Also, it's only been in recent decades that Americans have been terrified of excrement in all its forms.  In the past, manure was simply another benefit from pastured cattle, the more the merrier, nothing to be feared. (The stuff produced by grain and soy fed cattle is a total catastrophe and needs to be feared, as it is often deadly.)

Amish farms that sell to the public usually have an open day, usually after harvests, but before it gets cold, when you can visit and have a look at their operations.

I live on the edge of Amish/Mennonite country (several of our home furniture pieces are Amish-made).  I generally have a high opinion of the Amish, but they have their flaws like anyone else (see here, and here, and here).  You'd think they'd take very good care of their animals since they depend on them for their livelihood.  And most of them do, but there are plenty of "bad" Amish out there too, even aside from the examples above. 

Last year my wife and I stayed at a B&B in the Finger Lakes while visiting wine country.  Another couple at the B&B had driven up from South Carolina with their horse trailer to pick up a horse that had been taken away from an Amish farmer by the SPCA for neglect and abuse.  This couple told us there's a network of people who rescue farm animals that are abused and mistreated by Amish farmers throughout the area.  I have to say I was shocked to hear that, but there it is.

As a result I'm no more likely to trust the food products made by the Amish than I am of any other farmer.  About the only guarantee you get with Amish food products is that it's organic, but other than that it's a total crapshoot.  Sorry if I'm bursting anyone's bubble here.

No bubble burst here.  Don't forget, I'm the one who confessed (on another section of this forum) to watching "Amish Mafia" on Discovery Channel, and I'm eagerly awaiting its next season.

smurff wrote: No bubble burst here.  Don't forget, I'm the one who confessed (on another section of this forum) to watching "Amish Mafia" on Discovery Channel, and I'm eagerly awaiting its next season.

Jeez... I didn't even know there was such a show (our house is a cable-free zone).