The Permanent Supplement Regime

[MachineGhost]

I think Jaminet is full o' shit on the issue of D intake.  If there is a problem past the alleged homeostasis point of 45, then why doesn't it show up?  I wish there was some independent research verifying his claims.

[MachineGhost]

Brands to avoid due to class action lawsuit by NY Attorney General: Target's Up & Up, Walgreens Finest, Walmart's Spring Valley, GNC Herbal Plus, Nature's Made, Solaray, Trunature.  I'd just blacklist them all just to be safe.  Solaray is the only one I've used (when my preferred was out of stock) and ironically I thought it was disgustingly weak.  No strong smell at all.

[moda0306]

Guys,

I've been trying to read this thread.  My mind is spinning.  How the hell did you guys research all this?

Is there a good rule of thumb on supplements for someone who doesn't want to learn college-level bio-chemistry but still wants to add the right supplements to a healthy diet?

Right now, I'm eating a relatively healthy diet, and taking AM & PM Lifetime Fitness multivitamins, as well as Wal Mart fish oil (the latter will only be as long as this bottle lasts... I've heard there are much better brands to go with).

If anyone of the more informed folks here were putting together a "Rule-of-Thumb" supplement system to accompany a healthy diet, do you have any advice in that arena?

I know it's probably more complex than how I'm presenting my request, but holy hell MG's list of supplements reads like a science experiment.

[MachineGhost]

Guys,

I've been trying to read this thread.  My mind is spinning.  How the hell did you guys research all this?

Is there a good rule of thumb on supplements for someone who doesn't want to learn college-level bio-chemistry but still wants to add the right supplements to a healthy diet?

Right now, I'm eating a relatively healthy diet, and taking AM & PM Lifetime Fitness multivitamins, as well as Wal Mart fish oil (the latter will only be as long as this bottle lasts... I've heard there are much better brands to go with).

If anyone of the more informed folks here were putting together a "Rule-of-Thumb" supplement system to accompany a healthy diet, do you have any advice in that arena?

I know it's probably more complex than how I'm presenting my request, but holy hell MG's list of supplements reads like a science experiment.

Yeah, a good rule of thumb is to listen to us!   That's the whole point of these threads; to dumb it down and simplify it for everyone without having to go through all of the exhausting mental gymnastics.  Reub likes to say I'm performing a public service, but I have my doubts about that given how narrowly appealing the PP is, nevermind the forum.

There's no substitute for time and experience in learning all the ins and outs of the caveat emptor supplement world.  Even after almost 15 years of specifically taking a supplement regime, I'm still learning something new every couple of weeks which is really amazing considering how much I know already.  I keep thinking I'm hitting the limit.  And there's still another occult field or two or three that hasn't been covered in depth...  I suspect this is where Gumby wandered off to, actually.

Don't let my personal regime confuse you.  It's a mish-mash of different agendas.  Stick to what is in the OP which I think is the 10-15 supplements that MT asked about that I could recommend.

EDIT: I just re-read the OP.  It's a little confusing so I'm going to clean it up a bit.

[moda0306]

MG,

Thanks for taking the lead on this.  Certainly invaluable for boobs like me who don't want to spend a life-time doing all the hard-nosed research you've done.

I've tended to want to build a sort of framework on diet & supplementing that goes raw material by raw material, but once that list of raw materials went from things like "saturated fat" and "calcium" and "Vitamin A" to "isoglyhypotenusephateogyn" I started losing my f*king mind.

Now I just want to know what pills to pop once I've eaten lots of meats & vegetables.

[MachineGhost]

Now I just want to know what pills to pop once I've eaten lots of meats & vegetables.

Just add a high quality multi-vitamin and multi-mineral to the list in the thread off the OP.  Problem is I cannot recommend any because everything I've looked at is cheap junk, has glaring flaws or is really overpriced.  Which is why I personally supplement with vitamins and minerals individually, but I wouldn't wish that on anyone.  Maybe someone else has some recommendations to give for this.

But, this is what I personally give to my S.A.D. mother for non-macro minerals, so you know it meets the smell test as far as I can tolerate it: https://www.swansonvitamins.com/life-ex ... 0-veg-caps

[Mark Leavy]

If anyone of the more informed folks here were putting together a "Rule-of-Thumb" supplement system to accompany a healthy diet, do you have any advice in that arena?

Much like investing, it usually works best if you do your own research - as you tend to find something that works for your personal lifestyle and personality.

That said... after years of going on and off of different supplements, I've convinced myself that I can cover everything with a diet that regularly includes:

1) Eggs (By definition, an egg has every substance required to form an entire organism.  Eyes, bones, skins, organs...)  This is my standard multi-vitamin.

2) Some form of collagen.  (Bone broth, gelatin, gristle, pork rinds, aspic).  About 25% of the protein in our body is collagen and as regular humans we almost always eat muscle meat.  As we get older, we lose the ability to synthesize collagen from other proteins.  I believe that many of the aches and pains and skin and joint and hair and gum issues of old age are really a collagen deficiency.

3) Occasional bits of organ meat.  I don't much care for organ meat, other than pate or a bit of odd sausage.  But the nutrition density is enormous and will beat any multi-vitamin.

As I travel all of the time, I found it too hard to keep a supply of supplements.  The above regimen serves me well and is surprisingly available everywhere in the world.  Just look for the food that the poor people eat.  I also think it works better than the supplements.

But again, back to my first point.  There is no one size fits all.  If it doesn't fit your temperament, it doesn't matter how good it is.  Best to find what works for you.

[MachineGhost]

This is a landmark paper.

[quote=http://www.cell.com/abstract/S0092-8674%2813%2900645-4]Aging is characterized by a progressive loss of physiological integrity, leading to impaired function and increased vulnerability to death. This deterioration is the primary risk factor for major human pathologies, including cancer, diabetes, cardiovascular disorders, and neurodegenerative diseases. Aging research has experienced an unprecedented advance over recent years, particularly with the discovery that the rate of aging is controlled, at least to some extent, by genetic pathways and biochemical processes conserved in evolution. This Review enumerates nine tentative hallmarks that represent common denominators of aging in different organisms, with special emphasis on mammalian aging. These hallmarks are: genomic instability, telomere attrition, epigenetic alterations, loss of proteostasis, deregulated nutrient sensing, mitochondrial dysfunction, cellular senescence, stem cell exhaustion, and altered intercellular communication. A major challenge is to dissect the interconnectedness between the candidate hallmarks and their relative contributions to aging, with the final goal of identifying pharmaceutical targets to improve human health during aging, with minimal side effects.[/quote]

[MachineGhost]

I draw the line and I draw it with cricket flour.  Yep, you guessed it!  High protein flour made from slow-roasted crickets.  Add some gelatin and it'll be just like on Snowpiercer.  Yuck!!!

https://www.exoprotein.com/

[MachineGhost]

[quote=http://www.nature.com/srep/2015/150121/ ... 07928.html]We evaluated the quality and content of fish oil supplements in New Zealand. All encapsulated fish oil supplements marketed in New Zealand were eligible for inclusion. Fatty acid content was measured by gas chromatography. Peroxide values (PV) and anisidine values (AV) were measured, and total oxidation values (Totox) calculated. Only 3 of 32 fish oil supplements contained quantities of eicosapentaenoic acid (EPA) and docosahexaenoic acid (DHA) that were equal or higher than labelled content, with most products tested (69%) containing <67%. The vast majority of supplements exceeded recommended levels of oxidation markers. 83% products exceeded the recommended PV levels, 25% exceeded AV thresholds, and 50% exceeded recommended Totox levels. Only 8% met the international recommendations, not exceeding any of these indices. Almost all fish oil supplements available in the New Zealand market contain concentrations of EPA and DHA considerably lower than claimed by labels. Importantly, the majority of supplements tested exceeded the recommended indices of oxidative markers. Surprisingly, best-before date, cost, country of origin, and exclusivity were all poor markers of supplement quality.[/quote]

[MachineGhost]

Labdoor – Quality-Tested Online Marketplace For Supplements. The FDA doesn’t test supplements, and Labdoor says 79% of supplements fail quality control. Labdoor does its own testing so it can tell you what’s actually in Centrum or Muscle Milk even if the labels are wrong. The startup believes that user reviews aren’t enough to convince people what health products to buy, so it wants to be the quality control for everything important.

https://labdoor.com/

[Austen Heller]

I draw the line and I draw it with cricket flour.  Yep, you guessed it!  High protein flour made from slow-roasted crickets.  Add some gelatin and it'll be just like on Snowpiercer.  Yuck!!!

https://www.exoprotein.com/

I just finished my first Exo cricket protein bar, given to me by a relative.  It was delicious!  I had the Cacao Nut flavor.  Every bite had a bit of crunchy stuff in it, but this is likely from the almonds and cocoa nibs, since the crickets are supposedly ground into a fine flour.  It just tasted like a good brownie, there is no taste from the crickets.  I would like to try some of the other flavors, they offer a sampler pack on their website.

I'm not strictly Paleo, I tend to more closely follow Mark Sisson's Primal Blueprint, but I could see where this would be great if you did not want any diary or soy.  On the minus side, it only had 10g protein in a bar that costs $3.00.  Lots of cheaper ways to get protein.

Yes, it is just like in Snowpiercer!

[Benko]

2) Some form of collagen.  (Bone broth, gelatin, gristle, pork rinds, aspic).  About 25% of the protein in our body is collagen and as regular humans we almost always eat muscle meat.  As we get older, we lose the ability to synthesize collagen from other proteins.  I believe that many of the aches and pains and skin and joint and hair and gum issues of old age are really a collagen deficiency.

You were wondering about Bone Broth--listen to Mark.

[MachineGhost]

You were wondering about Bone Broth--listen to Mark.

A problem is collagen in food pales in comparison in terms of dose quantity to that of supplements.  And for maximum effect, it needs to be hydrolyzed so the intact peptides reach the joints (via diffusion).

So while Mark and Jaminet are correct, they are way over-estimating the importance of the collagen in bone broth and not the other microfactors.  Emphasis on micro.

[Mark Leavy]

And for maximum effect, it needs to be hydrolyzed so the intact peptides reach the joints (via diffusion).

A really simple way to do this in tropical countries is to buy unflavored gelatin at the grocery store and hydrolyze it with raw pineapple.

Here's my secret recipe:  Take an ounce of gelatin (usually 4 packets) and mix it up with a little cold water until you have a paste, then add a liter of very hot water until it is all dissolved.  Let it cool below 70C and then throw in about a cup of crushed pineapple (it has to be raw, never canned or pasteurized because you need the bromelain intact to perform the hydrolysis)  Make sure you use the core and juice of the pineapple.  Keep the mixture between about 50 and 70C for an hour or so and then let it sit out the rest of the day.  Don't get it too hot or you will break up the bromelain.  Too cold and the hydrolysis will take forever.

You will know that all of the collagen is hydrolyzed if the mixture won't gel up even if you put it in the fridge.  This tells you that most of the collagen molecules have been cut up by the bromelain and are under about 5000 Daltons.  Just perfect for incorporation into newly minted joint and gum tissue.  And a tasty chilled beverage for an afternoon in the tropics.

[MachineGhost]

A really simple way to do this in tropical countries is to buy unflavored gelatin at the grocery store and hydrolyze it with raw pineapple.

Here's my secret recipe:  Take an ounce of gelatin (usually 4 packets) and mix it up with a little cold water until you have a paste, then add a liter of very hot water until it is all dissolved.  Let it cool below 70C and then throw in about a cup of crushed pineapple (it has to be raw, never canned or pasteurized because you need the bromelain intact to perform the hydrolysis)  Make sure you use the core and juice of the pineapple.  Keep the mixture between about 50 and 70C for an hour or so and then let it sit out the rest of the day.  Don't get it too hot or you will break up the bromelain.  Too cold and the hydrolysis will take forever.

You will know that all of the collagen is hydrolyzed if the mixture won't gel up even if you put it in the fridge.  This tells you that most of the collagen molecules have been cut up by the bromelain and are under about 5000 Daltons.  Just perfect for incorporation into newly minted joint and gum tissue.  And a tasty chilled beverage for an afternoon in the tropics.

Cool, another of your recipes!  This one sounds like a whopping dose of collagen too.

[moda0306]

I've been noticing that I'm chronically deficient in potassium intake, even if I have two bananas and some potatoes, which is not the case every day (very rarely in fact).

Anyone have any advice on how to get more?  Just buy a supplement?  Oddly, it isn't in my multivitamin.

[Jack Jones]

I've been noticing that I'm chronically deficient in potassium intake, even if I have two bananas and some potatoes, which is not the case every day (very rarely in fact).

How do you know?

[moda0306]

I've been noticing that I'm chronically deficient in potassium intake, even if I have two bananas and some potatoes, which is not the case every day (very rarely in fact).

How do you know?

I use My Fitness Pal to track my food intake, including certain micronutrients, and usually end up with 1/3 of my recommended daily dose of potassium.

[Jack Jones]

I use My Fitness Pal to track my food intake, including certain micronutrients, and usually end up with 1/3 of my recommended daily dose of potassium.

Ah very cool. I used this back in the day when it wasn't as fancy:

https://cronometer.com/

But I got tired of measuring things.

[moda0306]

Started using "No Salt."

Thanks for the advice!

By the way, I used to eat cereal all the time, and I have a question.... I realize there are a lot of grainy/sugary/dairy-y reasons to not like cereal, but I rarely hear from anti-cereal folks even the slightest credit given to the fact that they are vitamin & mineral fortified.  I realize supplements are NOT perfect, and in the case of iron and others, can sometimes be dangerous, but I notice that when I take my multivitamin, even with lots of food, my urine turns colors.  My Total Raisin Bran never did that to me, nor did it taste funny.  Does anyone here want to comment on vitamin/mineral fortification in foods?  Is it better/worse than just taking a multivitamin with a fatty meal?

[Jack Jones]

I'd prefer my food to not be fortified and to supplement myself. I think foods are fortified as more of a public health issue.

[l82start]

i am drawing a blank on the details, but i saw a connection being made between obesity epidemics and food fortification somewhere,  the correlation (not necessarily causation) appeared pretty strong with the evidence given...

[Pointedstick]

It was iron fortification!

[l82start]

It was iron fortification!

thanks...  suffering from post holiday brain fog (i bet it was a discussion i saw here too --duh)