The White Ghetto

[Pointedstick]

It's a good thing we declared war on poverty so stuff like this is a thing of the past. Oh wait, what did you say? It's still around? Mmm, better deploy more troops. We'll get poverty routed one of these days!

[Pointedstick]

On a more serious note: let me say what everybody is thinking, but that it's only politically correct to say here because we're talking about white people: their culture is rotten. The harsh terrain and lack of jobs are effects, not causes; if these people were enterprising and inventive, they would build up more infrastructure and jobs would flock to the area. If you replaced the residents with average people from New Hampshire, Japan, and Israel, the whole place would look radically different in 10 years.

Their culture is just busted, and that's all there is to it. The story about parents taking their children out of school so as not to imperil their government stupidity benefits is only partially a cautionary tale about the dangers of poorly-designed welfare programs; mostly it describes a fatally broken way of approaching life. I'm willing to bet if the government set up a program that gave you $5,000 a month to never educate your children in any way (not even homeschooling, say), not a single member of this forum would take advantage of it. Why? Because we understand the importance of learning and education to making something of yourself.

"The government gives people checks, but nobody teaches them how to live," says Teresa Barrett, a former high-school principal who now publishes the Owsley County newspaper. "You have people on the draw getting $3,000 a month, and they still can’t live. When I was at the school, we’d see kids come in from a long weekend just starved to death. But you’ll see those parents at the grocery store with their 15 cases of Pepsi, and that’s all they’ve got in the buggy — you know what they’re doing. Everybody knows, nobody does anything. And when you have that many people on the draw, that’s a big majority of voters."

If that doesn't describe a problem of culture, I don't know what does. The poverty described in the article is less a monetary poverty and more a poverty of low expectations. The government programs are a distractions; people with such attitudes would simply find a way to game any other system just as easily.

What a mess.

[Pointedstick]

if these people were enterprising and inventive, they would build up more infrastructure and jobs would flock to the area.

Or maybe they'd just flee, and the dregs left behind will concentrate.

It looks like that's what already happened. It's what always happens when an area becomes seen as inhospitable to the productive and optimistic. They leave, and the benefits of their presence disappear.

Of course, the places where they flee to see real estate prices quadruple. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

[Kriegsspiel]

A woman who is intimately familiar with the local drug economy suggests that the exchange rate between sexual favors and cases of pop — some dealers will accept either — is about 1:1, meaning that the value of a woman in the local prescription-drug economy is about $12.99 at Walmart prices.

The free market, working like a charm.

It's unfortunate, that area of the country is beautiful.

[Libertarian666]

A woman who is intimately familiar with the local drug economy suggests that the exchange rate between sexual favors and cases of pop — some dealers will accept either — is about 1:1, meaning that the value of a woman in the local prescription-drug economy is about $12.99 at Walmart prices.

The free market, working like a charm.

It's unfortunate, that area of the country is beautiful.

I must be missing something. What does a culture dependent on government handouts have to do with the free market?

[annieB]

Citizen dividend,$15 min. wage,ACA medical.
Nothing works....

[FarmerD]

It doesn't matter how much aid you give some people, the ignorant and stupid will always find ways to blow through it all.  Advocates of welfare simply don't realize most poor people are poor for a reason - the vast majority are simply ignorant/lazy/irresponsible/substance abusers (pick one) and no amount of aid will change that.  In these cases the government acts as an enabler for their chosen lifestyles.

Compare the attitude of the people in the article to that of people of my dad's mindset.  He told me on several occasions "I'd rather starve than accept welfare of any kind.  Accepting welfare means I have failed as a man and as a parent."

[Kshartle]

the vast majority are simply ignorant/lazy/irresponsible/substance abusers (pick one) and no amount of aid will change that. 

You don't think that many aren't just making a rationale decision that welfare is their best alternative?

It's not like welfare is a lower standard of living than 40-50 hours a week for less than 10 or even 15 bucks.

Welfare is a higher standard of living because you don't have to go to a stupid job.

My sister is a welfare queen. We had the exact same upbringing and same parents. We are one year apart. She has zero marketable skills as she was supported by boyfriends from 18-25. Since then she's been supported by the government. She's intelligent. She has explained to me what I didn't understand at the time.....there is no reason for her to work. If she went to work she would be worse off. She thinks anyone working for less than 60-70k is a complete sap. She points out some of our childhood friends who work very hard and have nothing to show for it. She has the same stuff that they do....shelter, food, cable, beer, internet.

She makes a strong case, as does the lady on the call-in.

[annieB]

I think that is right.Most of these people have limited prospects.
They get an understanding of the system and make the best choices
for them.It's the system,man...

[Pointedstick]

Kshartle, would you mind explaining how your sister manages it? Does she have children or a disability or something? Or do they literally give her money in exchange for nothing? How is this possible? I was under the (perhaps mistaken) impression that TANF made it harder to just collect a check and sit on your bum. Or are these state-level programs she's taking advantage of?

[Libertarian666]

the vast majority are simply ignorant/lazy/irresponsible/substance abusers (pick one) and no amount of aid will change that. 

You don't think that many aren't just making a rationale decision that welfare is their best alternative?

It's not like welfare is a lower standard of living than 40-50 hours a week for less than 10 or even 15 bucks.

Welfare is a higher standard of living because you don't have to go to a stupid job.

My sister is a welfare queen. We had the exact same upbringing and same parents. We are one year apart. She has zero marketable skills as she was supported by boyfriends from 18-25. Since then she's been supported by the government. She's intelligent. She has explained to me what I didn't understand at the time.....there is no reason for her to work. If she went to work she would be worse off. She thinks anyone working for less than 60-70k is a complete sap. She points out some of our childhood friends who work very hard and have nothing to show for it. She has the same stuff that they do....shelter, food, cable, beer, internet.

She makes a strong case, as does the lady on the call-in.

This ties into my comment on the other thread about the disincentives for men to marry, only this time from the female side. Women can "marry the government" and get a good standard of living without having to put out any effort.

The only way this will end is if welfare stops coming. Then the women will find it more advantageous to marry, and perhaps men will too since women won't have that easy alternative and will have to try harder to please them.

[Kshartle]

She is such a master of scamming the government. She knows every program to get free stuff.

I told her we should build a website where people can put in all their details, pay a small fee and it would generate all the forms they need to fill out, numbers to call, what they qualify for....basically make it really easy for them to scam the government.

Lots of people lose handouts because they're too lazy to even keep up with the required paperwork or don't know what's available. So it's seems like there is an opportunity there if you want to specialize in government handouts as a private business.

Trying to get the information from the government offices about your handouts can be difficult and frustrating.

Gee maybe you could have a subscription service where you charge them a monthly membership fee in exchange for keeping them current on the handouts and changing laws.

hmmmmm.........if she was an outside consultant to the company I would have to pay her under the table so she didn't lose the benefits.....hmmmmm....or pay her in beer.

[Kshartle]

Kshartle, would you mind explaining how your sister manages it? Does she have children or a disability or something? Or do they literally give her money in exchange for nothing? How is this possible? I was under the (perhaps mistaken) impression that TANF made it harder to just collect a check and sit on your bum. Or are these state-level programs she's taking advantage of?

She has a 7 year old and she's convinced the doctors she's too depressed to work so she gets dissability also.

[Kshartle]

Kshartle, would you mind explaining how your sister manages it? Does she have children or a disability or something? Or do they literally give her money in exchange for nothing? How is this possible? I was under the (perhaps mistaken) impression that TANF made it harder to just collect a check and sit on your bum. Or are these state-level programs she's taking advantage of?

She has a 7 year old and she's convinced the doctors she's too depressed to work so she gets dissability also.

She has full and free medical care which she uses extensively. My GF who works 32 hours a week for $35/hr as a dental hygenist does not have any medical coverage.

My GF hates my sister needless to say. It started as pity but has turned.

[Kshartle]

the vast majority are simply ignorant/lazy/irresponsible/substance abusers (pick one) and no amount of aid will change that. 

You don't think that many aren't just making a rationale decision that welfare is their best alternative?

It's not like welfare is a lower standard of living than 40-50 hours a week for less than 10 or even 15 bucks.

Welfare is a higher standard of living because you don't have to go to a stupid job.

My sister is a welfare queen. We had the exact same upbringing and same parents. We are one year apart. She has zero marketable skills as she was supported by boyfriends from 18-25. Since then she's been supported by the government. She's intelligent. She has explained to me what I didn't understand at the time.....there is no reason for her to work. If she went to work she would be worse off. She thinks anyone working for less than 60-70k is a complete sap. She points out some of our childhood friends who work very hard and have nothing to show for it. She has the same stuff that they do....shelter, food, cable, beer, internet.

She makes a strong case, as does the lady on the call-in.

This ties into my comment on the other thread about the disincentives for men to marry, only this time from the female side. Women can "marry the government" and get a good standard of living without having to put out any effort.

The only way this will end is if welfare stops coming. Then the women will find it more advantageous to marry, and perhaps men will too since women won't have that easy alternative and will have to try harder to please them.

When all the women want to marry again they will seek out partners who are working and saving and responsible. That will encourage that type of behavior which results in more productivity, wealth, lower prices, more freedom, rinse and repeat.

[Pointedstick]

Ahh, it makes perfect sense now. Single mother + unprovable psychological "disability" is a winning combination.

[Kshartle]

Ahh, it makes perfect sense now. Single mother + unprovable psychological "disability" is a winning combination.

I remember I took her grocery shopping once and she bought crab legs and a $15 tiny jar of fancy olives along with a $300 cart full of ready-made stuff just spilling out.

Of course she used her snap card or whatever and saved her cash for cigs.

That was the last time I took her shopping because I nearly exploded when she explained how everyone has a right to food.

I did try the olives though...very good.

[MediumTex]

Or maybe they'd just flee, and the dregs left behind will concentrate.

It looks like that's what already happened. It's what always happen when an area becomes seen as inhospitable to the productive and optimistic. They leave, and the benefits of their presence disappear.

Of course, the places where they flee to see real estate prices quadruple. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

I think that's right.  The few that make it through that culture with any ambition remaining quickly leave for a place where they can surround themselves with success rather than depression and failure.  I can't imagine what it would take to break the cycle.

That's basically the life plan for native Americans who are born on reservations, right?

The only thing that has changed for reservations in recent decades has been the wealth that has come from building casinos, but casinos still aren't much of an economic anchor for a community that really has idea about how to thrive in a capitalist economy.  In other words, I don't view being an expert blackjack dealer or casino floor security guard as being equivalent to having a good pre-globalization U.S. manufacturing job.  I would concede, though, that a bad job is better than no job.

The harshest poverty I have ever seen in the U.S. was on a reservation in rural Utah that I drove through about 20 years ago.  Back then, not everyone had cell phones and people would often use calling cards for long distance calls.  I stopped on the reservation to make a call at a phone booth, but when I got inside the phone booth I found that it had a rotary dial phone. 

It really felt like I was in a foreign country.  People were just sitting and standing around like they had no idea what they were supposed to be doing.  As I drove by, they just looked at me like "Do you know what we're supposed to do?"  I was sad to discover that I didn't know what they were supposed to do either.  Most of them had little education, little urban street smarts, little cultural literacy and many of them were alcoholics and/or drug addicts.  If a person like that wanted to leave the reservation, I wouldn't know where to tell them to go.

Pretty sad scene.

[Pointedstick]

The harshest poverty I have ever seen in the U.S. was on a reservation in rural Utah that I drove through about 20 years ago.  Back then, not everyone had cell phones and people would often use calling cards for long distance calls.  I stopped on the reservation to make a call at a phone booth, but when I got inside the phone booth I found that it had a rotary dial phone. 

It really felt like I was in a foreign country.  People were just sitting and standing around like they had no idea what they were supposed to be doing.  As I drove by, they just looked at me like "Do you know what we're supposed to do?"  I was sad to discover that I didn't know what they were supposed to do either.  Most of them had little education, little urban street smarts, little cultural literacy and many of them were alcoholics and/or drug addicts.  If a person like that wanted to leave the reservation, I wouldn't know where to tell them to go.

Pretty sad scene.

What's just as sad is when a member of such a community leaves to pursue education or jobs and then returns later with the intention of trying to improve their community. Often they find that they are resented and distrusted, and in any event, they will quickly discover that the problems that caused them to flee in the first place are far larger than their capacity to fight, even with a fistfull of degrees, a 100k job, or an NGO full of idealistic young liberals.

I know an African man who just returned to his country after having gotten a PhD in a prestigious American university and spending 20 years in the USA. Now that he's back, they hate him. It's so sad.

[FarmerD]

the vast majority are simply ignorant/lazy/irresponsible/substance abusers (pick one) and no amount of aid will change that. 

You don't think that many aren't just making a rationale decision that welfare is their best alternative?

It's not like welfare is a lower standard of living than 40-50 hours a week for less than 10 or even 15 bucks.

Welfare is a higher standard of living because you don't have to go to a stupid job.

My sister is a welfare queen. We had the exact same upbringing and same parents. We are one year apart. She has zero marketable skills as she was supported by boyfriends from 18-25. Since then she's been supported by the government. She's intelligent. She has explained to me what I didn't understand at the time.....there is no reason for her to work. If she went to work she would be worse off. She thinks anyone working for less than 60-70k is a complete sap. She points out some of our childhood friends who work very hard and have nothing to show for it. She has the same stuff that they do....shelter, food, cable, beer, internet.

She makes a strong case, as does the lady on the call-in.

I'm sure she may achieve a higher standard of living than if she worked.  But why do we have a system where welfare benefits are so good, they can have a comfortable life without having to work or contribute anything to society.  I think it's a sad commentary that your sister has the same lifestyle as people who actually work for a living.  All people have valuable skills to give to others via the job market.  There is no such thing as a "stupid job."  "I've seen many people like your sister.  Sometimes all they need is a little tough love to kickstart them into a productive place in society. That's why I think welfare should be abolished not because I hate poor people but because the welfare system ruins people's motivation. 

[Kshartle]

That's why I think welfare should be abolished not because I hate poor people but because the welfare system ruins people's motivation.

Agreed.

The truly needy and unfortunate will be taken care of by family, friends and private charity.

When people oppose this concept they frequently point to examples from many decades ago where some people might have slipped through the cracks.

We are far wealthier now. We can afford to have half the population not in the workforce and still we have ample food and an abundance of housing. Imagine if 20 million more entered the workforce? Imagine still if millions of government workers actually got productive jobs instead of just redistributing stolen wealth? We would have such abundance that it would only be a matter of time until being poor would be a voluntary choice.

[Tortoise]

Speaking of gaming the welfare system, I had an eye-opening experience when I visited the Williamsburg neighborhood of Brooklyn several years ago.

Williamsburg is perhaps best known for its hipster culture, but I found out that among the locals it's also known for something else: Hasidic Jews on welfare.

If you want to talk gaming the system, the Hasidim in Williamsburg take it to a whole new level. They wrote the book on gaming the welfare system. In nearby Kiryas Joel, for example (the "poorest place in America"), half of the residents receive food stamps, and one-third receive Medicaid benefits and rely on Federal vouchers to help pay their housing costs. And they reproduce like crazy: the median household has six people.

What surprised me most is that the Hasidim in Williamsburg do not look "poor" at all. They are clean, well-groomed, well-dressed, and seem to be very well-behaved. (No loud domestic disputes, no teenagers loitering on street corners, etc.) They maintain their community quite well. They just do it with taxpayer money.

[moda0306]

That's why I think welfare should be abolished not because I hate poor people but because the welfare system ruins people's motivation.

Agreed.

The truly needy and unfortunate will be taken care of by family, friends and private charity.

When people oppose this concept they frequently point to examples from many decades ago where some people might have slipped through the cracks.

We are far wealthier now. We can afford to have half the population not in the workforce and still we have ample food and an abundance of housing. Imagine if 20 million more entered the workforce? Imagine still if millions of government workers actually got productive jobs instead of just redistributing stolen wealth? We would have such abundance that it would only be a matter of time until being poor would be a voluntary choice.

K,

Why should charities, friends and family help take care of people if it breeds dependence and actually expands poverty?  I get it that they are free to do as they choose, and this is what makes this morally acceptable in the first place (rather than theft from producers), but if free people are deciding where they should allocate their resources, shouldn't they just let those people fend for themselves?

[Xan]

Moda,

There's a big difference between mooching off of somebody that you know and love, and whom you look in the eye every day, as opposed to getting cut a check from "the government".  The latter is a lot easier to rationalize as a way of life, as something you deserve, and as not taking anything away from anybody except maybe "the rich".

I don't speak from direct experience, though, so I could be way off.

[moda0306]

Moda,

There's a big difference between mooching off of somebody that you know and love, and whom you look in the eye every day, as opposed to getting cut a check from "the government".  The latter is a lot easier to rationalize as a way of life, as something you deserve, and as not taking anything away from anybody except maybe "the rich".

I don't speak from direct experience, though, so I could be way off.

Xan,

It was fun while it lasted to argue on the same side .

So you're saying that a mentally disabled person gets a fundamentally different mindset when being taken care of by a state group home than one of his friends?

I get it that there is something better about family caring for you, but as someone from a charity who might provide care, I don't see why I should or would help someone if the help is fundamentally unhealthy for them.

i don't think its "help" that is fundamentally unhealthily it the execution, the "take this, come back for more tomorrow, you are entitled to it, we took it from people who we think don't deserve it anyway" attitude that is unhealthy, charity and family (as xan mentioned) is face to face and has a human contact, social contract aspect to it, in addition to sometimes (or often ) being a hand up or a part of a larger program to change peoples lives as apposed to being a lifestyle that you can settle into.