Ivy league colleges artificially limit number of Asians they admit

[Benko]

http://www.aei-ideas.org/2012/12/at-the ... -new-jews/

Because we can't have too many of a group known to be hardworking and frequently successful admitted to those colleges, it would not be fair to other groups.

[FarmerD]

This is, or course, a complete travesty.  Years ago, I had lunch with a bunch of Chinese American USAF officers.  They considered themselves the most discriminated minority in america precisely becasue of this.  Can't say I disagree. 

BTW I now consider myself hispanic and therefore my kids are listed as hispanic on all grade school forms rather than Amerasian. I't only common sense.     

[clacy]

In this day and age, the "race" question on forms should be completely eliminated, except maybe on medical forms where there could be some racial predispositions to diseases and conditions.

[MediumTex]

I always get a kick out of the stories about white South Africans who become naturalized U.S. citizens checking the "African-American" box on forms.

What about a Korean who grew up in Mexico and came to the U.S.  Would that person be an Asian or a Hispanic?  What if he was an orphan and had been raised by a Mexican family and only spoke Spanish?

I wonder if an Asian would get in trouble if he just checked "white" on a form to avoid discrimination.

I think that as we move forward, there are going to be so many people walking around of mixed descent that these forms are going to become a ridiculous exercise.  For example, what box should Tiger Woods' kids check?

[MachineGhost]

BTW I now consider myself hispanic and therefore my kids are listed as hispanic on all grade school forms rather than Amerasian. I't only common sense.   

Interesting.  Whats the advantage?

[MachineGhost]

I think that as we move forward, there are going to be so many people walking around of mixed descent that these forms are going to become a ridiculous exercise.  For example, what box should Tiger Woods' kids check?

We should just add a new box to check off: Mulatto!

[Benko]

I think that as we move forward, there are going to be so many people walking around of mixed descent that these forms are going to become a ridiculous exercise.

We should just add a new box to check off: Mulatto!

lots of forms offer "mixed" as an option now,
- since being the "wrong race" is sometimes a disadvantage when affirmative action is being applied
-and its none of their damn business anyway,
-and if you go back far enough everybody is mixed .. it is the answer i give when filling forms...

I agree that to some extent the intermixing of races will make some of this go away (not so sure about the asian thing though).  But the super important thing IMHO about this is that this policy is not an isolated abberant policy.  This policy is part of the big picture of "fairness" and punishing the well off (in this case it is the well off intellectually).  I don't even know what terms to use for this.  But if one wanted as sucessful as possible a society, you would do everything you could to make sure that bright, hardworking people were given every chance.  But we do exactly the opposite of that.  This cannot be good for the future of our society.

[FarmerD]

BTW I now consider myself hispanic and therefore my kids are listed as hispanic on all grade school forms rather than Amerasian. I't only common sense.   

Interesting.  Whats the advantage?

Other than the obvious discrimination issues on admissions to colleges, financial aid is also a great reason to be a non-Asian minority. 

I had a friend in college whose last name was Castro.  As a hispanic he got financial aid despite the fact his dad was a well off  attorney.  You see, Castro's Grandpa was from Spain so he was technically hispanic.    So he gets financial aid simply because his granparents lived in the right country while mine lived in the wrong european country.  Make any sense?

[RuralEngineer]

Universities have finite openings. If you artificially inflate the presence of one group, you have to artificially deflate another group. This falls squarely under the affirmative action umbrella. Any scheme to target a particular ratio of "races" will have these effects.

I'm firmly in favor of a meritocracy, although I think limiting the number of foreign nationals (Chinese, etc.) is fair to keep good opportunities for American youth.

[Tortoise]

Here's a blog post that shows a lot of informative graphs and charts:

http://philebersole.wordpress.com/2012/ ... dmissions/

Looks like Jewish students are significantly more overrepresented at elite universities than Asian students are. So if Asian applicants are being discriminated against, I suppose that raises the question of why Jewish applicants are not being discriminated against in a similar manner.

[MediumTex]

Here's a blog post that shows a lot of informative graphs and charts:

http://philebersole.wordpress.com/2012/ ... dmissions/

Looks like Jewish students are significantly more overrepresented at elite universities than Asian students are. So if Asian applicants are being discriminated against, I suppose that raises the question of why Jewish applicants are not being discriminated against in a similar manner.

"Legacy" admissions probably explains some of it.

[RuralEngineer]

How would one identify Jewish students in order to discriminate against them?  None of the COUNTLESS demographic questionnaires I've completed for school or employment have listed Jewish as an option.

In addition, some groups are just more acceptable to discriminate against. The Asian advocacy groups are less powerful in this country.

[MediumTex]

How would one identify Jewish students in order to discriminate against them?  None of the COUNTLESS demographic questionnaires I've completed for school or employment have listed Jewish as an option.

In addition, some groups are just more acceptable to discriminate against. The Asian advocacy groups are less powerful in this country.

As I said in my post above, I think that a lot of these students probably had parents, siblings or other relatives who attended that school, and these applicants are often given preferential treatment.

Many elite universities in the U.S. have lots of Jewish people in the ranks of professors and administrators, so if there was going to be a bias toward one group, it would likely be toward Jewish applicants.  That's not to say that these applicants aren't qualified, of course.  I sort of take it as a given that Jewish people as a group are always going to excel in any academic environment (that's part of the reason that so many of the professors are Jewish), for many of the same reasons that Asian students excel.

[smurff]

And elite colleges/universities like to enlarge the pool of people they count as alumni for the purposes of legacy admission.  It's not just a bachelor's degree-- these days certificate programs, long form seminars, courses at overseas branches also count.  Don't forget too that elite education can also be an employee benefit, sometimes with the benefit going to the kids of employees.

[Xan]

I was born in San Antonio.  I figure that qualifies me as a native American, right?  I'll check that box next time.

[MediumTex]

I was born in San Antonio.  I figure that qualifies me as a native American, right?  I'll check that box next time.

I would say that is closer to "Hispanic."

[Xan]

I was born in San Antonio.  I figure that qualifies me as a native American, right?  I'll check that box next time.

I would say that is closer to "Hispanic."

There's no wrong answer!

[MachineGhost]

I was born in San Antonio.  I figure that qualifies me as a native American, right?  I'll check that box next time.

No, not unless you were born in Nigeria or Russia...

[Storm]

I heard a story on NPR about this.  They even interviewed Ivy league admissions departments about it.  It turns out, the discrimination is not about race, it's about diversity, and Asians get hit with the brunt of it just because of how admissions works.  Here's an example:

Let's say you are looking at an Asian-american applicant with near perfect SAT scores, 4.0 GPA, 8 or 9 AP courses completed, plays violin at a concert level, plays tennis after school, etc.

The problem is, you already admitted 100 other Asian-american students with near perfect SAT scores, 4.0 GPA, violin and tennis, etc.

What Ivy league admissions want is diversity - they don't want a mono-culture.  So, they will intentionally pass on the Asian applicant because they are too much like every other Asian applicant.  Even down to the hobbies of violin, piano, tennis, etc.

What they will do instead is admit the Latino kid that doesn't have quite as good SAT scores or GPA, but plays jazz guitar and basketball.

The real problem is Asian mothers, to be honest.  They put a tremendous amount of pressure on their kids:

"You must play piano or violin, and practice every day!" (cue thousands of Asian applicants that play piano or violin)

"You must be a doctor!" (cue thousands of Asian applicants trying to get into Ivy league pre-med programs)

Basically, they create a generation of extremely hard working and studying students, but they are all mindless robot clones of each other.  If Asian mothers want their kids to succeed, they should encourage them to diversify their interests and hobbies and not be just like the perfect Asian stereotype.

It's harsh, but that's what the admissions departments are trying to do.

[Bean]

I always checked other and wrote in redneck.

Surprisingly that has never caused me any trouble that I know of.

[RuralEngineer]

Storm,

Striving for "racial diversity" of the appropriate ratio IS about race. You don't honestly believe the colleges would turn away a black student with perfect SATs that plays the cello just because they just admitted 100 smart cello playing Asians, do you?

It's all about race, not what instrument the students play. You don't see a problem with what you wrote?  Blaming or condemning Asian mothers for instilling an appreciation for education that results in high achieving children doesn't strike me as particularly productive.

[AdamA]

I always checked other and wrote in redneck.

I do the same thing, except I write in "playa." 

[FarmerD]

Storm,
As someone who mandates my kids

1) practice piano for 30 minutes daily
2) read 30 minutes daily
3) do math with me 30 minutes daily

every day (school days too), my kids are certainly not robots.  They have various interests like all kids their age and I encourage them to pursue their interests.  Don't buy into the silly racial stereotypes.  Bottom line:  You either believe in a meritocracy or you don't.

[Benko]

You either believe in a meritocracy or you don't.

+1

Meritocracy ain't fair.    If you are intelligent and want to create a sucessful company, etc you pick the best people for the job no what what skin color, age, sex. If we wanted our country to be sucessful, competitive, etc we would do the same.

[l82start]

i heard something interesting about ivy league admissions in an video with a guy named John Taylor Gatto, he said he had done a series of interviews with the people in ivy league admissions, and that one of the things they looked for was not the "team sports or classical music type experiences" you typically might expect, but the solo sports guy that sailed around the world or the extreme skier or the person that wrote their own music.  that they looked for signs of independents self starting and creativity,  not the conformists or people that master reproducing other peoples works of genius through endless repetition.

interesting if true... it probably does not change the fact they have racial quotas as well, but it might change the type of resume you want your kids to have if sending them to a high end school is your goal...