Left wing economics

[I Shrugged]

If I were to ask a left or progressive person to lay out their vision for a successful economy, what could they say?

My main question would be something like, "Do you accept that prosperity means producing more than you consume? If you agree, how do you propose to accomplish that?"

It would be a good question to ask of any party. Based on available evidence, the Republicans and other conservatives would have a tough time convincing anyone that they have the answer, either. But let's stick to the left for the moment. Can anyone on the left offer a cogent vision of how to achieve prosperity? Are there examples of how their ideas have worked, or failed?

Is my main question flawed, or is it the right question? I see it as the central question for all governments. Because everything flows from prosperity, or lack of it.

[boglerdude]

Eat the rich. Tax billionaires giev UBI.

They'll point to Norway, Denmark, Japan, Switzerland. And dismiss that those countries have generational wealth and closed borders. Palo Alto and Scarsdale are old-money paradises too.

The Convoy ended our free trial version of communism.exe in 2022. That experiment showed people on UBI don't do sh-t with the freed up time.

I don't like billionaires either, but don't have an answer to capital flight. [edit1: term limits on all politicians would help decentralize power]

Future might look like a hybrid 1984, Matrix and Idiocracy.

Some say these flix were good
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CXgOUa91GHg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2VT2apoX90o

[I Shrugged]

Eat the rich. Tax billionaires giev UBI.

They'll point to Norway, Denmark, Japan, Switzerland. And dismiss that those countries have generational wealth and closed borders. Palo Alto and Scarsdale are old-money paradises too.

The Convoy ended our free trial version of communism.exe in 2022. That experiment showed people on UBI don't do sh-t with the freed up time.

I don't like billionaires either, but don't have an answer to capital flight. [edit1: term limits on all politicians would help decentralize power]

Future might look like a hybrid 1984, Matrix and Idiocracy.

Some say these flix were good
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CXgOUa91GHg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2VT2apoX90o

Obviously, the examples provided a good standard of living for their citizens. But they also had a culture that was compatible with the system. And closed borders as you point out. I don't think they tolerated complete freeloading. Did they typically balance their budgets? I know Japan surely has not in the past few decades. I would think their reckoning is coming.

What I'm asking is, if you balance your budgets and have a tax rate not so high so as to discourage the risk takers and the other productive people, and you keep your social payments within the bounds of all that, shouldn't that work? Of course that is what the US and many countries did, with varying degrees of success depending on tax rates and spending, prior to going to pure fiat money.

In any event, I don't think ANYONE on the left is lining up behind anything like that. I think your description of "tax billionaires and give free money and services to everyone else" is about where they are. I guess I should look up some of the platforms and see.

[I Shrugged]

This is from the New Democrats Coalition (Centered & Strong) in Congress, for 2025. Presumably "centrists" or "moderates"?

I. Economic Growth and Opportunity: Work, Wages and Wealth

Helping Americans achieve financial freedom — not just making ends meet but getting ahead.
Lowering costs and raising the standard of living for hardworking American families.
Creating an abundance of new, well-paying jobs at all skill levels, including more union jobs.
Keeping the promise of a secure and dignified retirement for all Americans.
Protecting and expanding the United States leadership in innovation and technology.
Supporting American small businesses and entrepreneurs.
Revitalizing rural America to lead the world for the 21st Century.
Maintaining American energy independence and development and expansion of new energy sources.
Responsibly addressing deficits and debts to leave our children a prosperous future.


Those are all great, but tell me how you will pay for it with production exceeding consumption.

[flyingpylon]

To get what you're looking for, you're going to have to figure out how to quantify feelings.

Good luck!

[I Shrugged]

The official Democratic platform of 2024, as published in Chicago and beginning with an acknowledgment that they were meeting on lands that used to belong to various native tribes. https://democrats.org/wp-content/upload ... ATFORM.pdf

Too big to cut and paste much, but here are the headings.
INVESTING IN AMERICA
Infrastructure (rebuild roads, bridges, grid, etc.)
Manufacturing

GOOD JOBS
(stronger unions. Higher minimum wages.)

SMALL BUSINESSES
(more govt contracts, level the playing field, Main St vs Wall St., SBA funding)

AGRICULTURE
(Help farmers. Protect farm and food production workers.)

FIGHTING POVERTY
("That’s why we’ll keep pushing to restore the
expanded Child Tax Credit and Earned Income Tax Credit, which proved so effective at
reducing poverty before Republicans let them expire. We’ll work to finally raise the federal
minimum wage to at least $15-an-hour. We’ll fight for paid leave, better health care, and
more investment in public schools and affordable housing. We’ll reduce the need for foster
care, by supporting families and engaging kin. We’ll further expand public transit, connecting
communities that have been cut off for too long. We’ll keep working to get more low-income
families access to affordable banking as well, and to boost the supply of capital and loans by
investing more in CDFIs.")

ENDING SPECIAL INTEREST GIVEAWAYS

Chapter Two: Rewarding Work, Not Wealth
CUTTING TAXES FOR WORKING FAMILIES
MAKING THE WEALTHY & BIG CORPORATIONS PAY THEIR FAIR SHARE

Chapter Three goes on to cutting costs for ordinary people in health care, child care, paid leave, gas and groceries, corporate greed, housing, education, and retirement.

=====

Now, I don't think any Democrat takes the whole thing seriously, just like no Republican takes theirs seriously either. But there it is. My question is, is it really THE PLAN of the progressives? I looking for someone to tell me what plan the left or progressives have to cause our economy to produce more than we consume. Again, maybe that's a flawed request on my part?


<cough> buy gold.

[I Shrugged]

Okay, I guess I have gotten this out of my system for now. I'm open for replies of course, but I just cannot imagine there is anything from the left which will make any sense economically.

[Jack Jones]

I recently engaged with a lefty ex-co-worker I'm friends with on a similar topic. I don't think they are interested in prosperity, only in equality. They would rather live in a shithole where everyone is poor than tolerate the billionaires who create the stuff they use on a daily basis.

[I Shrugged]

I recently engaged with a lefty ex-co-worker I'm friends with on a similar topic. I don't think they are interested in prosperity, only in equality. They would rather live in a shithole where everyone is poor than tolerate the billionaires who create the stuff they use on a daily basis.

Yes, that’s true. Great point.

[boglerdude]

I'm with the Leftists on high speed rail. Also got some green energy grants which is a better way to redistribute than UBI. (need to update my car story lol)

Mostly government needs to get out of the way, I know several people destroyed by unemployment, because of minimum wage. Restaurants can only hire one or two people if they have to pay them $20/hour and then they work them into the ground.

[yankees60]

I recently engaged with a lefty ex-co-worker I'm friends with on a similar topic. I don't think they are interested in prosperity, only in equality. They would rather live in a shithole where everyone is poor than tolerate the billionaires who create the stuff they use on a daily basis.

I LOVE my billionaires! Gates, Bezos, Musk.

They've all become that way by creating superior products that have made many, many, many people lives far superior.

I AM a dedicated Amazon user.

[ochotona]

For my whole entire life, I have favored conservative, right-of center economics. However, I have learned that is NOT what they do. They SAY they do it to gain votes and support from us minions, but they don't do it.

Republicans and also Democrats reward political contributors with carve-outs, tax favors, protectionism, restraint of trade. It's truly in support of an oligarchy, I know that word is misused, but it's appropriate. Examples:

Pharmacy benefit managers, PBMs. My wife was struggling to get a doctor's pre-auth so that Aetna would pay for an $85 lotion. Oh, lookey here, Cost Plus Drugs sells it for cash, no insurance for $20. So the whole $85 prices is just a fake price and a scam, so that these people can bill premium payers (employers), and the government (for those with Medicare or VA), and patients of course. Multiply this many-fold for hospital stays. What does it mean when "in network" hospital discounts are 35% off "list", or 50% more? It means list price is fake, and there is no price discovery.

They get the cash - they want to keep it - they alternately squeeze and collude with providers to keep as much of it as profit as possible.

It's the "every bridge a toll bridge, and a troll underneath every bridge" world. It's F*** YOU capitalism. Actually, it isn't capitalism. It's just a legalized mafia. Real competition would lower prices dramatically, witness Cost Plus Drugs. Some employers are giving the middle-finger to PBMs and directing their employees to use Cost Plus Drugs where possible.

Free markets would be wonderful for America, except we don't have them.

Donald Trump is the perfect President for a mafia economy. He fits it to a T. We truly deserve him. We have no collectively sense.