Putin Invades Ukraine II

[yankees60]

Very sad to watch Zelensky blow it so badly. IMHO He should resign so the war can end. Also Trump was skillfully handling Zelensky’s foolishness. Then Vance caused a serious problem. Vance is a young inexperienced guy who should have stayed quiet. If he had the deal would have closed.

Intentional/by-design, planned throwing Zelenskky out of the White House and immediate cessation of military supply by the US .... because that's what Putin instructed. Trump could and should have stamped immediately upon Vance, instead he let it run for the TV's before even jumping in himself. A choreographed quarter hour show. Zelenskky has said thanks to many and often, yet Vance kicked off with a 'have you ever said thanks' comment. When Vance was asked about had he been to Ukraine he replied that he'd read things and seen things on TV/social media.

It was very strange when Vance jumped in. Before that it all seemed like the usual Trump show. A little shake down before lunch a press conference. But then boom Vance jumps in from no where completely out of context.

I will conceded it could have been a setup. I don’t think Putin was involved but who knows.

I don't think it was a setup.

It was all happenstance.

It was Vance completely overplaying the sycophantic / obsequious role towards Trump. I never thought I'd ever seen someone outdo Pence in that area.

Pence was more passive in that role. Vance is extremely aggressive in the role.

Zalenskyy rightly responds to the Vance nonsense which then sets off the worst instincts of Trump.

Bottom line? Trump / Vance are each incapable of being the BIGGER people. Always resorting to be the LESSER people.

Since Trump IS the president he's 100% responsible for this historic spectacle.

Never before seen in world history.

With a result of nearly the entire world supporting Zelenskyy in this. Think about that and not from your own personal point of view as an American.

[dualstow]

I fear he may just have started the WW3 nuclear war. Given the history Ukrainians might rather die rather than surrender to Russia as Trump is telling Zelenskyy to do. Multiple Chernobyl's would spread contamination globally.

I’ll make no excuses for Trump’s methods or lack of decorum in front of the camera.
But if you look at your second sentence, what you’re really saying is that Ukrainians would willfully start WW3 and nuclear war rather than make concessions ….

WW3 and nuclear war rather than make concessions surrender.
…
Yes. Trump posting "doesn't want peace" -> doesn't want to surrender. Any more than if say Mexico invaded/took Texas because the US had demilitarized on promises of a security umbrella. More so when being instructed to surrender unconditionally - where whatever lines drawn today might be re-tested by Putin subsequently.

No, surrender is not what I meant. It sounds like Russia could run roughshod over the entire nation of Ukraine. If it’s anything less than unconditional surrender, then I would use the word “concessions”, and so I did.

Texas, is of course, the favorite Chinese analogy for Taiwan. In your usage above, I don’t really disagree, except with the word “surrender.” It’s a shitty situation. Ukraine shouldn’t have to give up any territory. But, if the other options are nuclear war or even a continuation of a conventional war of attrition… maybe get the territory back when Russia falls apart again like during Yeltsin’s brief reign.

Feels however very much like Putin has something on Trump.

Could be. But, wasn’t that the whole point of the laborious Mueller investigation? The Democrats were sure that Trump was a Russian asset and after all the time and expense they turned up nothing.
I think it’s more that Trump sees himself as a strongman and he feels a sort of kinship with true strongmen: Putin, Orban, et al.

[yankees60]

It has now all become fairly simple and clear to me.

1) Russia invaded a sovereign country with ZERO legitimate reason.

2) Ukraine did not surrender but fought back.

3) Our country along with many, many, many other countries chose to support Ukraine.

4) All this support has only been in the form of $$$$ and weapons. I've not learned of any country actually sending any of their military to Ukraine. However, it's common knowledge that another one of our country's adversaries (North Korea) did send some of its troops to Ukraine.

5) Trump for a variety of reasons wants this war to end. That's his choice. But he cannot force this on Ukraine. He can tell Ukraine our country will no longer be supporting Ukraine in any way. But it will always be Ukraine's choice as to how it wants to end this war. And, history will judge both Ukraine and our country as to how each behaved in the years after Russia first invaded Ukraine.

[yankees60]

I fear he may just have started the WW3 nuclear war. Given the history Ukrainians might rather die rather than surrender to Russia as Trump is telling Zelenskyy to do. Multiple Chernobyl's would spread contamination globally.

I’ll make no excuses for Trump’s methods or lack of decorum in front of the camera.
But if you look at your second sentence, what you’re really saying is that Ukrainians would willfully start WW3 and nuclear war rather than make concessions ….

WW3 and nuclear war rather than make concessions surrender.
…
Yes. Trump posting "doesn't want peace" -> doesn't want to surrender. Any more than if say Mexico invaded/took Texas because the US had demilitarized on promises of a security umbrella. More so when being instructed to surrender unconditionally - where whatever lines drawn today might be re-tested by Putin subsequently.

No, surrender is not what I meant. It sounds like Russia could run roughshod over the entire nation of Ukraine. If it’s anything less than unconditional surrender, then I would use the word “concessions”, and so I did.

Texas, is of course, the favorite Chinese analogy for Taiwan. In your usage above, I don’t really disagree, except with the word “surrender.” It’s a shitty situation. Ukraine shouldn’t have to give up any territory. But, if the other options are nuclear war or even a continuation of a conventional war of attrition… maybe get the territory back when Russia falls apart again like during Yeltsin’s brief reign.

Feels however very much like Putin has something on Trump.

Could be. But, wasn’t that the whole point of the laborious Mueller investigation? The Democrats were sure that Trump was a Russian asset and after all the time and expense they turned up nothing.
I think it’s more that Trump sees himself as a strongman and he feels a sort of kinship with true strongmen: Putin, Orban, et al.

"No, surrender is not what I meant. It sounds like Russia could run roughshod over the entire nation of Ukraine."

Maybe. Maybe not. Why have they not been more successful? And, if they could what good is a demolished nation to them? In between they have nowhere close to the military necessary to occupy a country such as Ukraine where the people in the country absolutely hate the Russians. Russia has put itself in a quite bad position.

"Could be. But, wasn’t that the whole point of the laborious Mueller investigation? The Democrats were sure that Trump was a Russian asset and after all the time and expense they turned up nothing. "

You are ignoring that Trump did have an attorney general -- Barr -- who did not allow all of it to be presented, that he provided a summary that completely gave the wrong impression to the American people.

[yankees60]

Heard from a knowledgeable person on C-Span:


Russia's military is like a car with a blown transmission. It's incapable of going through Ukraine.

It's always advantageous to be on the defensive.

Ukraine is capable of producing a million drones a year. It is well capable of defending itself.


https://www.c-span.org/program/washingt ... ing/656431

March 1, 2025
Washington Journal
Max Bergmann on President Trump and President Zelensky's White House Meeting

CSIS Europe, Russia, and Eurasia Program Director Max Bergmann discussed the potential impact of the White House meeting between President Trump and Ukraine President Zelensky.

[Vil]

The only thing I know with certainty is that I do not want to be in the shoes of Zelenskyy right now. And yeah, 100% Trump show, his puppets are pathetic. But it's clear now, UA has been duped very very badly, that's it, most likely all hope is gone.

[seajay]

Since Trump IS the president he's 100% responsible for this historic spectacle.

What might be considered the even greater position of the US being the head of NATO - has as good-as been thrown away by Trump.

Absent very convincing security protections for Ukraine, given that prior promises have been broken, the only way forward is for Ukraine to develop or be shielded by weapons of mass destruction. Given nukes are so-1960's - that's more inclined to initiate a biological weapons of mass destruction race. Increasingly the period since the ending of the cold-war is seemingly just having been a lull period. This year the UK has already initiated additional funding of "Future-Proofing Biosecurity by Strengthening the UK’s Microbial Forensic Capabilities". Around the same time
the doomsday clock was revised downward https://thebulletin.org/doomsday-clock/2025-statement/

https://treaties.unoda.org/t/bwc biological weapons and other international agreements seem to be at high risk of being cast aside, as is the UN increasingly being seen as just token at best. Simple logic and it would take many many nukes to mutually destroy an aggressor such as a country the size of Russia or China, whereas a single missile/device can better ensure such destruction, albeit it global, but where current conventions prevent such being openly declared as a deterrent.

My understanding of the briefcase that follows the Prime Minister around that in films is portrayed as the nuclear launch code device is more just a ping device, where if communications cease and there's no return ping then from somewhere remote in the world a retaliatory action is initiated. Absent demonstrable penalties against Russia for having invaded Ukraine the proliferation of means of global destruction would follow and along with that the greater chance of a deployment. Trump shouting at Zelenskky that he's risking millions of lives - when Trumps actions risk billions of lives.

The universe is absent of intelligent life as dumb life is too stupid to ever evolve into intelligent life

[glennds]

Zelensky will be at the White House today to sell his country to the US.

Not so much

[I Shrugged]

Here's a CBS News account from insiders about how the dog and pony show went sideways.

It seems like VZ is a bit of a loose cannon. Not saying Trump isn't as well. Trump should have just recessed the meeting for a few minutes instead of reacting to VZ, and then hashed it out in private.

It wasn't the first time Zelenskyy had clashed with his American counterpart. President Biden once hung up on Zelenskyy because of the Ukrainian president's perceived combativeness, sources familiar with the call told CBS News.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/trump-advi ... zelenskyy/

[dualstow]

Feels however very much like Putin has something on Trump.

Could be. But, wasn’t that the whole point of the laborious Mueller investigation? The Democrats were sure that Trump was a Russian asset and after all the time and expense they turned up nothing.
I think it’s more that Trump sees himself as a strongman and he feels a sort of kinship with true strongmen: Putin, Orban, et al.

--------------

You are ignoring that Trump did have an attorney general -- Barr -- who did not allow all of it to be presented, that he provided a summary that completely gave the wrong impression to the American people.

Fair enough. That appears to be the case.

[glennds]

It would have been tactically advantageous for Zelenskyy to have used an interpreter. It would have allowed him to take control of the pace and effectively buffer, especially useful to prevent people from talking over each other which always seems to escalate tempers.

Even in situations like the "you haven't said thank you" he could have looked at the interpreter like "are you serious?" without it being quite so personal.

And on a practical level, Zelenskyy has done an admirable job of speaking English as a third language, but I don't think his English is fluent enough to serve him when things start moving at a fast pace and unique idiomatic expressions like "holding cards" start getting thrown around.

[dualstow]

…
And on a practical level, Zelenskyy has done an admirable job of speaking English as a third language, but I don't think his English is fluent enough to serve him when things start moving at a fast pace and unique idiomatic expressions like "holding cards" start getting thrown around.

That’s true, although his response, “We’re not playing cards” demonstrated that he did understand in this case. Kind of a useless retort, but he knew the phrase.

[yankees60]

It would have been tactically advantageous for Zelenskyy to have used an interpreter. It would have allowed him to take control of the pace and effectively buffer, especially useful to prevent people from talking over each other which always seems to escalate tempers.

Even in situations like the "you haven't said thank you" he could have looked at the interpreter like "are you serious?" without it being quite so personal.

And on a practical level, Zelenskyy has done an admirable job of speaking English as a third language, but I don't think his English is fluent enough to serve him when things start moving at a fast pace and unique idiomatic expressions like "holding cards" start getting thrown around.

He was impressive in his interview with Lex Fridman. Listened to it twice. Though Lex in his next podcast expressed frustration with the interpreters part of it.

There he avoided speaking Russian out of principle unless Lex requested it since Lex also speaks Russia (being from Russia). He mostly spoke English or Ukrainian. I think he speaks much better English than many Americans who have lived in this country all their lives.

But all your points are quite good.

[yankees60]

…
And on a practical level, Zelenskyy has done an admirable job of speaking English as a third language, but I don't think his English is fluent enough to serve him when things start moving at a fast pace and unique idiomatic expressions like "holding cards" start getting thrown around.

That’s true, although his response, “We’re not playing cards” demonstrated that he did understand in this case. Kind of a useless retort, but he knew the phrase.

That is what I thought until I just read what glennds wrote. In that case he may have taken Trump's words literally, thus, the response, "I'm not playing cards."

[glennds]

…
And on a practical level, Zelenskyy has done an admirable job of speaking English as a third language, but I don't think his English is fluent enough to serve him when things start moving at a fast pace and unique idiomatic expressions like "holding cards" start getting thrown around.

That’s true, although his response, “We’re not playing cards” demonstrated that he did understand in this case. Kind of a useless retort, but he knew the phrase.

That is what I thought until I just read what glennds wrote. In that case he may have taken Trump's words literally, thus, the response, "I'm not playing cards."

Even if his English comprehension and speaking is excellent, I still think an interpreter would give him a level of buffering, that would have been an advantage when things got personal. Especially with Vance. It also would have changed the optics. I remember a movie scene where the character used an interpreter even though he spoke English perfectly, just for a power advantage. I think it might have been Michael Corleone in the scene when he is talking to the father of the young woman he marries in Sicily.

A man named Viktor Sukhodhrev became very famous as a pivotal figure in the Cold War. He was the personal translator for many key Soviet leaders including Krushchev. He was pivotal as a result of his choice of words, subtle differences in which could be consequential. One such incident was the "We will bury you" translation from Krushchev, which Krushchev later said was meant more along the lines of we will dig in and remain steadfast in our conviction.

Trump and Vance both acted offended when Zelenskyy said "what kind of diplomacy is this?". My Ukrainian friend told me that is a very typically Ukrainian manner of speaking, but it comes off aggressively toward westerners even though that is not what is intended.

[dualstow]

Even if his English comprehension and speaking is excellent, I still think an interpreter would give him a level of buffering, that would have been an advantage when things got personal.

Totally agree.

[yankees60]

…
And on a practical level, Zelenskyy has done an admirable job of speaking English as a third language, but I don't think his English is fluent enough to serve him when things start moving at a fast pace and unique idiomatic expressions like "holding cards" start getting thrown around.

That’s true, although his response, “We’re not playing cards” demonstrated that he did understand in this case. Kind of a useless retort, but he knew the phrase.

That is what I thought until I just read what glennds wrote. In that case he may have taken Trump's words literally, thus, the response, "I'm not playing cards."

Even if his English comprehension and speaking is excellent, I still think an interpreter would give him a level of buffering, that would have been an advantage when things got personal. Especially with Vance. It also would have changed the optics. I remember a movie scene where the character used an interpreter even though he spoke English perfectly, just for a power advantage. I think it might have been Michael Corleone in the scene when he is talking to the father of the young woman he marries in Sicily.

A man named Viktor Sukhodhrev became very famous as a pivotal figure in the Cold War. He was the personal translator for many key Soviet leaders including Krushchev. He was pivotal as a result of his choice of words, subtle differences in which could be consequential. One such incident was the "We will bury you" translation from Krushchev, which Krushchev later said was meant more along the lines of we will dig in and remain steadfast in our conviction.

Trump and Vance both acted offended when Zelenskyy said "what kind of diplomacy is this?". My Ukrainian friend told me that is a very typically Ukrainian manner of speaking, but it comes off aggressively toward westerners even though that is not what is intended.

There are generally two interpreters involved, one for each side? Has it ever happened wherein one interpreter objected to how the other interpreted?

[yankees60]

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/202 ... eaths.html


• A Thousand Snipers in the Sky: The New War in Ukraine Drones have changed the war in Ukraine, with soldiers adapting off-the-shelf models and swarming the front lines. The war in Ukraine has changed — and it’s deadlier than ever. After Russia invaded, artillery, missiles, tanks and trench warfare dominated the fight, often echoing the World Wars. Today, drones do most of the killing, commanders say. They now cause about 70 percent of deaths and injuries, commanders say. The drastic shift is changing the way wars may be fought in the future. (New York Times)

[dualstow]

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/202 ... eaths.html


• A Thousand Snipers in the Sky:
…
The drastic shift is changing the way wars may be fought in the future. (New York Times)

I remember watching Ben Kenobi talk about the “Droid Wars” in the Star Wars series and wondering when that would become a reality. Didn’t think it would be in my lifetime, but we’re getting there.

[Xan]

[dualstow]

Simpsons have done it all!

[seajay]

How drone combat in Ukraine is changing warfare
https://youtu.be/dO9xh_1p1G4
Ukraine is now geared up and producing millions of them, I believe often with explosives provided by Russia in the way of repurposed land mines explosives.

[glennds]

Ukraine is now geared up and producing millions of them, I believe often with explosives provided by Russia in the way of repurposed land mines explosives.

Talk about responding in kind!