Gold Avenue (an overseas storage option in Switzerland)

[ArthurPooh]

Does anyone here store their gold at Gold Avenue (https://www.goldavenue.com/)? The yearly fee is ridiculously low: nothing at all for accounts under 10k CHF, 8 EUR (~$8.65) for accounts under 100k CHF, 0.5% of value if over that. The company behind this service apparently has existed since the 70s and is trusted by the LBMA, so I wouldn't expect a rug pull and I haven't found any information online that would indicate they're not legit.

I just cannot wrap my head around the pricing. For a small investor this beats even the ETFs. Why would anyone use the other gold storage services that charge 1% or more while this option exists? One possibility is that they will suddenly introduce additional charges once enough people sign up. However, apparently till 2021 the price schedule was even lower and previously existing accounts can still use it.

It seems too good to be true, and yet there are no usual scam indicators. Has anyone dealt with this company? Have I missed something?

Add-on question to avoid spamming the forum with repetitive threads (and on topic of things too good to be true): does anyone hold unallocated gold at Perth Mint? I know about the usual problems with unallocated, but if Perth Mint doesn't engage in banking business and the liabilities are guaranteed by the Australian government, is it really that much riskier?

[Hal]

Does anyone here store their gold at Gold Avenue (https://www.goldavenue.com/)? <snip>

It seems too good to be true, and yet there are no usual scam indicators. Has anyone dealt with this company? Have I missed something?

Add-on question to avoid spamming the forum with repetitive threads (and on topic of things too good to be true): does anyone hold unallocated gold at Perth Mint? I know about the usual problems with unallocated, but if Perth Mint doesn't engage in banking business and the liabilities are guaranteed by the Australian government, is it really that much riskier?

Good morning ArthurPooh,

No, I haven't heard of Gold Avenue. Maybe they rely on their margin from gold sales to fund the storage costs? I believe GoldMoney did that however later on they introduced storage fees.

On Perth Mint, I have used them for over a a decade and had no issues. Hold both allocated and unallocated. Only thing to be aware of is that in times of high demand (eg 2008 Financial crisis) there can be a significant wait to convert to allocated. This is because their physical inventory was sold out and the gold in process (ie unrefined ore etc) which constitutes the unallocated, had yet to be made into bullion coins & bars.

[boglerdude]

https://www.google.com/search?q=%22gold ... %22+reddit

I like the idea of being able to show up and get your coins. Maybe Texas depository.

IIRC Sofie made posts about Perth Mint getting hacked, and the director accidentally sent me emails once.

And the government lost credibility

[Hal]

I like the idea of being able to show up and get your coins. Maybe Texas depository.
<snip>

And the government lost credibility

If ArthurPooh is open to other options, well yes, maybe Texas. Don't know how easy it is to take gold out of the USA though. In my opinion, Singapore is preferable to Australia. Have known people who used https://www.sgpmx.com and https://www.silverbullion.com.sg and commented favourably on their service

And yes, agree with you on the Government here becoming more draconian.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XCjbntg_1Hk

So ArthurPooh, in an extreme situation I think your gold would be safe in the Perth Mint, but as to Boglerdudes point, you might have issues accessing it and taking it out of the country.

[ArthurPooh]

I live in Eastern Europe, so showing up in person to collect my coins in Texas is as realistic for me as doing so in Western Australia; either way I would likely rely on selling the gold back to the depository rather than picking it up physically. Switzerland is much more accessible to me in case of some kind of apocalypse, hence my interest in GA. Singapore feels super exotic and the fee is much larger even if GA's markups are considered.

I would like to avoid US-based storage. I see gold as a somewhat of a hedge against American system's failure and would like some geographical diversification.

I don't like Australian government's policies either, but same applies to most Western governments. @Hal - if you recall, were there any interruptions to PM's online services during covid restrictions?

I have checked Reddit before posting and the few people who have used it seem to think it's legitimate. They sure do love a photogenic stack.

Thank you both for responding. At the moment I'm semi-decided on directly holding a fifth of my total gold allocation and dividing the rest between GA and PM's unallocated (I need to get tax advice on the latter). I'm probably too paranoid for my own good.

[Hal]

@Hal - if you recall, were there any interruptions to PM's online services during covid restrictions?

I have checked Reddit before posting and the few people who have used it seem to think it's legitimate. They sure do love a photogenic stack.

Thank you both for responding. At the moment I'm semi-decided on directly holding a fifth of my total gold allocation and dividing the rest between GA and PM's unallocated (I need to get tax advice on the latter). I'm probably too paranoid for my own good.

Hi ArthurPooh,

As I live in Australia, I just deal with PM over the phone. Had no problems transacting during covid, so I surmise their online service was working as well.

Are you aware of this PM product? => https://www.perthmint.com/invest/perth- ... SX-PMGOLD/

Looking forward to hearing about your experiences with GA on the forum.

[pmbug]

...maybe Texas. Don't know how easy it is to take gold out of the USA though. In my opinion, Singapore is preferable to Australia. ...

BullionStar has offices in Singapore and Texas and offers vaulting services in both places. I've never done business with them, but they have been around for many years so might be an option if that's what you are looking for.

Singapore: https://www.bullionstar.com/vault-storage-singapore/

Texas: https://www.bullionstar.us/vault-storage-united-states/

From the Texas link:

... You can buy, sell, withdraw, or store bullion across all of BullionStar’s vault locations using one and the same BullionStar account ...

It's not 100% clear, but it sounds like you might be able to vault in one location and withdraw from another (or do a quick sell in one location, buy in the other and then withdraw).

[ArthurPooh]

Hi Hal,

PMGOLD looks great. However, any exchange-traded product is disadvantageous for me due to tax considerations. Physical gold (regardless if held directly or stored overseas) is free of capital gains tax in my country, as it is considered a kind of personal movable property rather than an investment. Unallocated gold is likely seen by the authorities something akin to a foreign exchange account (I will make sure before investing) and thus likewise untaxed. In contrast, gold ETPs/ETFs/ETCs are securities falling under capital gains tax regime. For this reason I intend to only use them to rebalance in tax-protected retirement accounts and none of these offer access to the ASX, leaving me with ETCs traded on European exchanges.

I forgot to ask before: why do you consider Singapore preferable to Australia? From my, admittedly uninformed, perspective, Singapore seems less trustworthy due to potential insecurity both external (small, rich city-state with populous, poor neighbors) and internal (possible Chinese-Malay ethnic conflict). In contrast, Australia would probably chug along just fine even if WWIII broke out. Covid eradication policies were frankly insane, but they didn't bring mass expropriation or a rise in common crime.

I will definitely post about my experiences with GA.

[ArthurPooh]

Hi pmbug,

thanks for pointing me towards this service. I will definitely consider it.depozytu nieprawidłowego

[Hal French]

In "Fail Safe Investing," Harry Browne mentioned Austrian banks as an option to store physical gold, and even gave some bank names and contact information and tips to have the bank arrange the entire transaction on one's behalf. HB praised Austrian banks because bank security and privacy concerns are codified in the Austrian constitution itself- short of rewriting the constitution, your gold is safe, and your privacy is assured. Mind you, this book is now nearly 25 years old, and the political climate in Austria has taken a sharp turn to the right since its publication, so perhaps others on the forum can chime in with more recent insight- but if the advice still holds, this is an intriguing, under the radar option.

[ArthurPooh]

Austria isn't what it used to be, I think. It did budge under pressure or weaken many of previously existing privacy-enhancing products and legal arrangements, such as Sparbuchs. It did sign up to FATCA and CRS. As a member of the European Union, it's by default obligated to cooperate on tax and financial matters with all of the EU members (including all the Eastern kleptocracies) and various other mass surveillance initiatives like registers of beneficial ownership. I don't know, there may be some pro-privacy informal culture left, but in light of the above I wouldn't count on any "constitutional guarantees" to protect your assets.

[ArthurPooh]

I am proven a complete idiot now. It's 8 EUR per month, not year. Kind of changes the picture, doesn't it? Still not bad with larger holdings, but not too good to be true anymore.

[ArthurPooh]

Still (off-topic to avoid starting yet more threads) I am more and more convinced to give up on allocated storage and divide my gold between physically held, unallocated at PM and the ETFs. Giving up between 0.3% up to 1.15% yearly for storing gold I won't ever see anyway (not to mention the hassle and additional costs of sending money overseas just to pay these fees) seems excessive. I'm sure I'm not the first to come to that conclusion. Sorry if I spam the forum too much with my personal issues.

[snedgar]

Mr. Pooh,

No need to apologize. We all benefit from open conversation about this learning process.

Thanks

[dualstow]

Mr. Pooh,

No need to apologize. We all benefit from open conversation about this learning process.

Thanks

+1

[ppnewbie]

I would love a good allocated storage solution that is low cost storage, low premiums, safe, easy, etc, etc...

Its interesting. I think a few states are discussing building repositories and some type of legislation making buillion sound money. I think that would be fantastic. Gold is like an apex predator and easy money / bankers / promoters / speculators are like deer that proliferate in the absence of wolves.

I bet money would get sucked out of banks fast if a State(s) offered a valid safe non-fringe alternative. Just look at how massive pent up demand for Costco gold bars.

I would move at least a 1/4 (HBPP!) of my cash reserves into a buillion bank, if a state make it secure, redeemable, and legal tender.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fjhLp8AHAYc

[ppnewbie]

Checked out Gold Avenue. It looks really good (maybe too good).

[pmbug]

... if a state make it secure, redeemable, and legal tender.

Texas already built a State repository and there are bills pending in several states to either build their own repositories or to use the Texas repository for managing gold and silver legal tender / payment systems. Texas itself might reintroduce bills to create a legal tender gold payment system (including a gold backed digital "crypto" token) in the next legislative session (2025).

[ppnewbie]

... if a state make it secure, redeemable, and legal tender.

Texas already built a State repository and there are bills pending in several states to either build their own repositories or to use the Texas repository for managing gold and silver legal tender / payment systems. Texas itself might reintroduce bills to create a legal tender gold payment system (including a gold backed digital "crypto" token) in the next legislative session (2025).

There is a good podcast on this subject from Palisades Gold Radio. I was actually thinking I need to re-listen to it and find out more info on the legislation and potentially get involved.

[pmbug]

...
There is a good podcast on this subject from Palisades Gold Radio. I was actually thinking I need to re-listen to it and find out more info on the legislation and potentially get involved.

I haven't listened to their podcast, but you can find info (and some of the people pushing these initiatives) at:

https://www.soundmoneydefense.org/news

https://blog.tenthamendmentcenter.com/

[seajay]

Still (off-topic to avoid starting yet more threads) I am more and more convinced to give up on allocated storage and divide my gold between physically held, unallocated at PM and the ETFs. Giving up between 0.3% up to 1.15% yearly for storing gold I won't ever see anyway (not to mention the hassle and additional costs of sending money overseas just to pay these fees) seems excessive. I'm sure I'm not the first to come to that conclusion. Sorry if I spam the forum too much with my personal issues.

Yes, as ever, diversifying is a wise choice. Some 1 oz coins in-hand, other holdings elsewhere.

Paxos is a interesting one. Can be held on-platform/direct, or as crypto, or redeemed (Singapore/London), just a few clicks to transfer between each. Initially bought/held on-platform is perhaps the better choice, and then if you need to move it quickly across international borders convert to crypto and electronic transfer/exchange. Physical redemption needs quite large $$$ amounts to be held, so isn't a reasonable option, but does at least remain a option. But Paxos is US regulated (New York) which may be a factor.

Physical in-hand, PM, Paxos, ETF gold four-way subdivision in a PP where 25% is gold, 6% individual case risk-exposure ... natural portfolio volatility can move through that or more over shorter periods of time.

[ArthurPooh]

I don't really see the value proposition of Paxos for a small buy-and-hold investor. Sure, if I wanted to transfer money internationally outside of the banking system, or had some dodgy cash that I can't get into formal financial sector right now... but outside of these niche cases, anything related to cryptocurrency IMO belongs in the Variable Portfolio, if that. Maybe I have missed something, but this is the way I see it.

[ppnewbie]

Here is another interesting option I have considered. It is Monetary Metals based in Arizona. They loan your gold out and you get interest in gold back.

https://www.gyroscopicinvesting.com/for ... =5&t=12989