West Provokes Russia to Protect Russians in Ukraine

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Re: West Provokes Russia to Protect Russians in Ukraine

Post by seajay » Thu Dec 22, 2022 1:37 am

Defending "Russian's" within Ukraine were "Russian's" installed by Russia. Migration, force educators to only speak Russian and instate Russian states of minds, then rebel and seize.
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Re: West Provokes Russia to Protect Russians in Ukraine

Post by seajay » Thu Dec 22, 2022 1:59 am

stuper1 wrote:
Wed Dec 21, 2022 8:35 pm
As I'm reading that line that says "The war can end only in Vladimir Putin's defeat," I'm thinking: or it could end in a huge nuclear conflagration with untold millions of people dead.
Pretty much a global catastrophe.

UK/West have very finite resources to sustain conventional warfare, weeks.

UK has very limited resources to sustain a nuclear war, a Russian Satan 2 for instance single launch can wipe out the entire UK (splits upon approach into multiple missiles that separate to target major cities). Other Russian weapons include a sea-burst, that generates a massive radioactive tsunami. The UK in turn opted for largely defensive rather than offensive measures to 'assure mutual destruction' - via alternative/worse means, that if deployed a single vertical missile launch would wipe out mankind globally.

Conceptually the British Isles (UK) islands would be a good 'example' for Putin to wipe out, hit it with a single Satan 2 or tsunami weapon and dare others (US) to respond. Many of his underlings have even strongly protested that he should already have done so. But I'm sure that he's had a British whisper in the ear to highlight that so doing is as good as committing suicide. A concern is that if he is replaced his replacement may act (launch) before being aware of what that actually entails.
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Re: West Provokes Russia to Protect Russians in Ukraine

Post by vnatale » Thu Dec 22, 2022 5:47 am

stuper1 wrote:
Wed Dec 21, 2022 11:35 pm

vnatale wrote:
Wed Dec 21, 2022 11:31 pm

stuper1 wrote:
Wed Dec 21, 2022 5:04 pm

Well, I mean, surely you can see the hypocrisy in Boris Johnson's approach, can't you? If the war can end only in Vladimir Putin's defeat (I mean, who writes this stuff? But okay, whatever), then why aren't the UK, US, etc. sending their men and women over there to help shoulder the burden of fighting and dying? It's not like we aren't already at war with Russia. These proxy wars are just hypocritical nonsense.

Mr. Johnson's spiel, which was probably written by the press team for Raytheon, is typical neocon swagger and provocation.


I know that you are a student of history. So how is what he is advocating (which is really an extension or expansion of what we are already doing) any different than Roosevelt's Lend Lease during World War II to England prior to our entrance to the war. Unless you believe he was wrong at that time to be doing that. I am almost certain that that was the premise of Pat Buchanan's book regarding how we should not have been involved in World War II.


We shouldn't have been involved in either World War I or World War II. If we hadn't been involved in World War I, there probably wouldn't have been a World War II. Even if we did get involved in World War I, we never should have gotten involved in World War II. Hitler was never any threat to attack America. He didn't even have a navy other than submarines. He just wanted more room in Europe including a bunch of lands where a bunch of German people were already living and had gotten split off over the years. He wasn't after world domination. That's just hysteria that Hollywood likes to throw around to sell more movie tickets. No way could not-very-big Germany dominate the whole world. That whole line about we had to defeat Hitler or we all would be speaking German now is just silliness.


This does represent Buchanan's point of view.

But it was all Germany's actions that led to World War II ... nothing as a result of World War I. That is a convenient German excuse, similar to all the Germans who say that they had no idea that The Holocaust was going on around them.

Hitler was not a threat at the time to attack the United States but if he had succeeded in Europe there is a fair chance he would have.

There was a Navy aside from the submarines. Remember The Bismarck?

Your "He just wanted more room..." is quite the understatement!!!

I agree that we would have never spoken Germany.

What you did not bring up (which would have further supported your argument) was that by the end of World War II Germany had nearly run out of money and was just about a bankrupt country financially.
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
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Re: West Provokes Russia to Protect Russians in Ukraine

Post by vnatale » Thu Dec 22, 2022 5:48 am

seajay wrote:
Thu Dec 22, 2022 1:34 am

stuper1 wrote:
Wed Dec 21, 2022 11:35 pm

vnatale wrote:
Wed Dec 21, 2022 11:31 pm

stuper1 wrote:
Wed Dec 21, 2022 5:04 pm

Well, I mean, surely you can see the hypocrisy in Boris Johnson's approach, can't you? If the war can end only in Vladimir Putin's defeat (I mean, who writes this stuff? But okay, whatever), then why aren't the UK, US, etc. sending their men and women over there to help shoulder the burden of fighting and dying? It's not like we aren't already at war with Russia. These proxy wars are just hypocritical nonsense.

Mr. Johnson's spiel, which was probably written by the press team for Raytheon, is typical neocon swagger and provocation.


I know that you are a student of history. So how is what he is advocating (which is really an extension or expansion of what we are already doing) any different than Roosevelt's Lend Lease during World War II to England prior to our entrance to the war. Unless you believe he was wrong at that time to be doing that. I am almost certain that that was the premise of Pat Buchanan's book regarding how we should not have been involved in World War II.


We shouldn't have been involved in either World War I or World War II. If we hadn't been involved in World War I, there probably wouldn't have been a World War II. Even if we did get involved in World War I, we never should have gotten involved in World War II. Hitler was never any threat to attack America. He didn't even have a navy other than submarines. He just wanted more room in Europe including a bunch of lands where a bunch of German people were already living and had gotten split off over the years. He wasn't after world domination. That's just hysteria that Hollywood likes to throw around to sell more movie tickets. No way could not-very-big Germany dominate the whole world. That whole line about we had to defeat Hitler or we all would be speaking German now is just silliness.

Excepting he did write about a interlude after WW2/Europe/Africa before conquering the US, and was already devising the likes of Amerikabomber's and development of massive naval powers for such purposes. He was also very close to nuclear bomb capabilities.


I agree with this.
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Re: West Provokes Russia to Protect Russians in Ukraine

Post by vnatale » Thu Dec 22, 2022 5:49 am

seajay wrote:
Thu Dec 22, 2022 1:37 am

Defending "Russian's" within Ukraine were "Russian's" installed by Russia. Migration, force educators to only speak Russian and instate Russian states of minds, then rebel and seize.


Important facts you bring up.
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Re: West Provokes Russia to Protect Russians in Ukraine

Post by vnatale » Thu Dec 22, 2022 5:50 am

seajay wrote:
Thu Dec 22, 2022 1:59 am

stuper1 wrote:
Wed Dec 21, 2022 8:35 pm

As I'm reading that line that says "The war can end only in Vladimir Putin's defeat," I'm thinking: or it could end in a huge nuclear conflagration with untold millions of people dead.

Pretty much a global catastrophe.

UK/West have very finite resources to sustain conventional warfare, weeks.

UK has very limited resources to sustain a nuclear war, a Russian Satan 2 for instance single launch can wipe out the entire UK (splits upon approach into multiple missiles that separate to target major cities). Other Russian weapons include a sea-burst, that generates a massive radioactive tsunami. The UK in turn opted for largely defensive rather than offensive measures to 'assure mutual destruction' - via alternative/worse means, that if deployed a single vertical missile launch would wipe out mankind globally.

Conceptually the British Isles (UK) islands would be a good 'example' for Putin to wipe out, hit it with a single Satan 2 or tsunami weapon and dare others (US) to respond. Many of his underlings have even strongly protested that he should already have done so. But I'm sure that he's had a British whisper in the ear to highlight that so doing is as good as committing suicide. A concern is that if he is replaced his replacement may act (launch) before being aware of what that actually entails.


What you describe is certainly frightening!
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Re: West Provokes Russia to Protect Russians in Ukraine

Post by Kbg » Thu Dec 22, 2022 9:05 am

Since we're lobbing hypotheticals here...

What if the west told China that if they supported the west they could have the former territories controlled by the Qing dynasty and seized by imperialist Russia back?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outer_Man ... annexation.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amur_Annexation

That could be a game changer. Might even solve the Taiwan problem...a little quid pro quo.
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Re: West Provokes Russia to Protect Russians in Ukraine

Post by stuper1 » Thu Dec 22, 2022 12:55 pm

The thing is that your hypothetical would require the US to actually engage in some diplomacy, kind of like in the old days where quid pro quo stuff actually happened. As I understand it these days, the US is basically the big bad bully that just tells other countries what the deal is going to be, and if they don't like it, tough cookies, that's how it's going to be. Maybe I'm wrong. Does the US still engage in real diplomacy? I don't see that as having happened in relation to Russia for example. I guess the Minsk agreements were supposedly diplomacy, but Merkel pulled the veil off last week and told everyone that those were a sham from day one. At this point, Russia would have no reason to believe any promises from the West. So, I guess the Ukraine thing will just be decided on the battle field. As I've said previously, if I were a betting man, I wouldn't bet against Russia prevailing, despite Boris Johnson promising us that the only way this can end is by Putin losing (I'm sure we can all agree that the promises of any politician, much less a failed politician, aren't worth much). Ukraine is right next door to Russia, not halfway around the world, and the Russian people can't be too happy about the West trying to kick them around for the last 100 years or more -- many people on this forum may not agree with that characterization, but it really doesn't matter whether it's true or not; what matters is whether the Russian people believe it's true or not.
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Re: West Provokes Russia to Protect Russians in Ukraine

Post by I Shrugged » Thu Dec 22, 2022 1:30 pm

I saw a bit of Zelenski (sp?) with the big guy. Z spoke about how many people in U are now going to be vengeful for generations.

This is a great reason to stay out of European wars. They (all of them) have been fighting for a couple thousand years and they all hate each other. If you ever have a good personal conversation with just about anyone in Europe and you ask the right questions, you’ll see what I mean.

Don’t turn what I said into me saying we should never be involved. I’m saying it’s a briar patch, these days with a civilized veneer. Same in the Caucasus and Balkans and Mideast. As anybody with more sense than a neocon can see. Tread carefully and just stay out if possible.
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Re: West Provokes Russia to Protect Russians in Ukraine

Post by Mountaineer » Thu Dec 22, 2022 2:39 pm

I Shrugged wrote:
Thu Dec 22, 2022 1:30 pm
I saw a bit of Zelenski (sp?) with the big guy. Z spoke about how many people in U are now going to be vengeful for generations.

This is a great reason to stay out of European wars. They (all of them) have been fighting for a couple thousand years and they all hate each other. If you ever have a good personal conversation with just about anyone in Europe and you ask the right questions, you’ll see what I mean.

Don’t turn what I said into me saying we should never be involved. I’m saying it’s a briar patch, these days with a civilized veneer. Same in the Caucasus and Balkans and Mideast. As anybody with more sense than a neocon can see. Tread carefully and just stay out if possible.
This is consistent with what the people, not only European, I worked with a few decades ago said of themselves and their neighbors (French, German, English, Irish, Scotts, Italian, Russian, various Middle Eastern, Mexican, Porto Rican, Columbian, Brazilian, Polish, Chinese, Japanese, others I’ve now forgotten). As you imply, at the root of it people tend towards being quite tribal.
DNA has its own language (code), and language requires intelligence. There is no known mechanism by which matter can give birth to information, let alone language. It is unreasonable to believe the world could have happened by chance.
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Re: West Provokes Russia to Protect Russians in Ukraine

Post by MarketIfTouched » Thu Dec 22, 2022 4:54 pm

George Washington's Farewell Letter 1796:

The great rule of conduct for us, in regard to foreign nations,
is in extending our commercial relations,
to have with them as little political connection as possible.
Image
It seemed to me whenever President Trump met with foreign leaders, it was always about trade.

More trade, improving trade, fair trade...trade was often the theme.

I don't see that same emphasis from the current administration.
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Re: West Provokes Russia to Protect Russians in Ukraine

Post by Kbg » Thu Dec 22, 2022 5:06 pm

stuper1 wrote:
Thu Dec 22, 2022 12:55 pm
The thing is that your hypothetical would require the US to actually engage in some diplomacy, kind of like in the old days where quid pro quo stuff actually happened. As I understand it these days, the US is basically the big bad bully that just tells other countries what the deal is going to be, and if they don't like it, tough cookies, that's how it's going to be. Maybe I'm wrong. Does the US still engage in real diplomacy? I don't see that as having happened in relation to Russia for example. I guess the Minsk agreements were supposedly diplomacy, but Merkel pulled the veil off last week and told everyone that those were a sham from day one. At this point, Russia would have no reason to believe any promises from the West. So, I guess the Ukraine thing will just be decided on the battle field. As I've said previously, if I were a betting man, I wouldn't bet against Russia prevailing, despite Boris Johnson promising us that the only way this can end is by Putin losing (I'm sure we can all agree that the promises of any politician, much less a failed politician, aren't worth much). Ukraine is right next door to Russia, not halfway around the world, and the Russian people can't be too happy about the West trying to kick them around for the last 100 years or more -- many people on this forum may not agree with that characterization, but it really doesn't matter whether it's true or not; what matters is whether the Russian people believe it's true or not.
Well that's a nice assumption you made about diplomacy and I assume you understand diplomacy isn't when the peaceniks in suits try to talk things out and feel each other's pain before the shooting starts.

If the news reporting is accurate, I give her more credit than I previously did. I assume you know the timelines...the Russian war against Ukraine had already begun and Crimea had already been invaded/taken over (in violation of previous Russian diplomatic promises). If the diplomatic intent was to buy time to stabilize the situation in order that Ukraine could defend itself...bravo western diplomats. Nice work!

Ukraine is right next door to Russia, not halfway around the world, and the Russian people can't be too happy about the West trying to kick them around for the last 100 years or more -- many people on this forum may not agree with that characterization, but it really doesn't matter whether it's true or not; what matters is whether the Russian people believe it's true or not.

Seriously??? Do we start this time line at 1917, or 1939 or shall we go back to Russian imperialist days? The people kicking Russians around the most the past 100 years has been other Russians. That's fact. Communism, largely thrust on the world by Russians against their will, was an unmitigated disaster and lead to the direct deaths of millions of innocent people with a large component of them being other Russians.

I agree on two points. What the Russian people think is what matters to them and is their frame of reference. And, this conflict will be decided on the battlefield. God willing, Ukraine will win and Russians will come to terms with the fact that the Russian peoples' primary problem isn't other countries but the singularly heinous leadership they have been continuously stuck with for most of the past 100 years.

Military tip: It's very difficult to invade another country and win. The motivation equation is quite lopsided. Doubly so if other strong countries are supporting you. Ask the US military about that...they would likely agree having done it to others and having it done to them. So, we shall see.
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Re: West Provokes Russia to Protect Russians in Ukraine

Post by Kbg » Thu Dec 22, 2022 5:10 pm

I Shrugged wrote:
Thu Dec 22, 2022 1:30 pm
I saw a bit of Zelenski (sp?) with the big guy. Z spoke about how many people in U are now going to be vengeful for generations.

This is a great reason to stay out of European wars. They (all of them) have been fighting for a couple thousand years and they all hate each other. If you ever have a good personal conversation with just about anyone in Europe and you ask the right questions, you’ll see what I mean.

Don’t turn what I said into me saying we should never be involved. I’m saying it’s a briar patch, these days with a civilized veneer. Same in the Caucasus and Balkans and Mideast. As anybody with more sense than a neocon can see. Tread carefully and just stay out if possible.
Agreed...and I think we would all agree the US has been way too militaristic.

In my adult lifetime by my own criterion...Afghanistan and Ukraine are it for events reaching the get involved level.
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Re: West Provokes Russia to Protect Russians in Ukraine

Post by glennds » Thu Dec 22, 2022 6:19 pm

Kbg wrote:
Thu Dec 22, 2022 5:10 pm
I Shrugged wrote:
Thu Dec 22, 2022 1:30 pm
I saw a bit of Zelenski (sp?) with the big guy. Z spoke about how many people in U are now going to be vengeful for generations.

This is a great reason to stay out of European wars. They (all of them) have been fighting for a couple thousand years and they all hate each other. If you ever have a good personal conversation with just about anyone in Europe and you ask the right questions, you’ll see what I mean.

Don’t turn what I said into me saying we should never be involved. I’m saying it’s a briar patch, these days with a civilized veneer. Same in the Caucasus and Balkans and Mideast. As anybody with more sense than a neocon can see. Tread carefully and just stay out if possible.
Agreed...and I think we would all agree the US has been way too militaristic.

In my adult lifetime by my own criterion...Afghanistan and Ukraine are it for events reaching the get involved level.
Easier said in hindsight than at the time. Highly situational. WWII and Vietnam being examples on both sides of the equation. I think the answer will always be it depends.

Our military industrial complex, defense contractor industry, and unfettered lobby will cause us to err to the side of militarism for the obvious reasons.
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Re: West Provokes Russia to Protect Russians in Ukraine

Post by stuper1 » Thu Dec 22, 2022 6:33 pm

Kbg wrote:
Thu Dec 22, 2022 5:06 pm
stuper1 wrote:
Thu Dec 22, 2022 12:55 pm
The thing is that your hypothetical would require the US to actually engage in some diplomacy, kind of like in the old days where quid pro quo stuff actually happened. As I understand it these days, the US is basically the big bad bully that just tells other countries what the deal is going to be, and if they don't like it, tough cookies, that's how it's going to be. Maybe I'm wrong. Does the US still engage in real diplomacy? I don't see that as having happened in relation to Russia for example. I guess the Minsk agreements were supposedly diplomacy, but Merkel pulled the veil off last week and told everyone that those were a sham from day one. At this point, Russia would have no reason to believe any promises from the West. So, I guess the Ukraine thing will just be decided on the battle field. As I've said previously, if I were a betting man, I wouldn't bet against Russia prevailing, despite Boris Johnson promising us that the only way this can end is by Putin losing (I'm sure we can all agree that the promises of any politician, much less a failed politician, aren't worth much). Ukraine is right next door to Russia, not halfway around the world, and the Russian people can't be too happy about the West trying to kick them around for the last 100 years or more -- many people on this forum may not agree with that characterization, but it really doesn't matter whether it's true or not; what matters is whether the Russian people believe it's true or not.
Well that's a nice assumption you made about diplomacy and I assume you understand diplomacy isn't when the peaceniks in suits try to talk things out and feel each other's pain before the shooting starts.

If the news reporting is accurate, I give her more credit than I previously did. I assume you know the timelines...the Russian war against Ukraine had already begun and Crimea had already been invaded/taken over (in violation of previous Russian diplomatic promises). If the diplomatic intent was to buy time to stabilize the situation in order that Ukraine could defend itself...bravo western diplomats. Nice work!

Ukraine is right next door to Russia, not halfway around the world, and the Russian people can't be too happy about the West trying to kick them around for the last 100 years or more -- many people on this forum may not agree with that characterization, but it really doesn't matter whether it's true or not; what matters is whether the Russian people believe it's true or not.

Seriously??? Do we start this time line at 1917, or 1939 or shall we go back to Russian imperialist days? The people kicking Russians around the most the past 100 years has been other Russians. That's fact. Communism, largely thrust on the world by Russians against their will, was an unmitigated disaster and lead to the direct deaths of millions of innocent people with a large component of them being other Russians.

I agree on two points. What the Russian people think is what matters to them and is their frame of reference. And, this conflict will be decided on the battlefield. God willing, Ukraine will win and Russians will come to terms with the fact that the Russian peoples' primary problem isn't other countries but the singularly heinous leadership they have been continuously stuck with for most of the past 100 years.

Military tip: It's very difficult to invade another country and win. The motivation equation is quite lopsided. Doubly so if other strong countries are supporting you. Ask the US military about that...they would likely agree having done it to others and having it done to them. So, we shall see.
I say as an American practicing Christian, God willing Russia will win and teach the warmongering American leadership class to stop meddling in other countries' business, most of which they do not because of a selfless desire to spread freedom and democracy to the rest of the world but just to fatten up their own wallets.
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Re: West Provokes Russia to Protect Russians in Ukraine

Post by Kbg » Thu Dec 22, 2022 6:47 pm

glennds wrote:
Thu Dec 22, 2022 6:19 pm
Our military industrial complex, defense contractor industry, and unfettered lobby will cause us to err to the side of militarism for the obvious reasons.
Well, far far more accurately, the people who inhabit congress and the senate bringing home the bacon for their districts/states with something they have a lot of control over. I do not say this pejoratively, if people are truly concerned over this issue they should try to elect Bernie Sanders or Ron Paul types.

However, you should also realize politicians know how to count votes and they do on this issue. If you are in the group of Americans who think the military is too big...well 84% of Americans don't think the same as you do. In fact, the percent of Americans who think the military isn't strong enough is double or more (almost always) than your take.

https://news.gallup.com/poll/1666/milit ... fense.aspx

(Your is used in the generic sense.)

On your first point, most politicians/political leaders think the reason(s) they decided to enter a war are righteous, valid, legitimate, whatever set of words you would like to place here. Of course there is a true 180 viewpoint at the level that makes the other side believe killing each other in mass seems like a good idea as well as compared to the alternatives. It's a sad feature of the human species. (Said, briefly...agree.)
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Re: West Provokes Russia to Protect Russians in Ukraine

Post by Kbg » Thu Dec 22, 2022 7:08 pm

stuper1 wrote:
Thu Dec 22, 2022 6:33 pm
I say as an American practicing Christian, God willing Russia will win and teach the warmongering American leadership class to stop meddling in other countries' business, most of which they do not because of a selfless desire to spread freedom and democracy to the rest of the world but just to fatten up their own wallets.
That's a pretty cynical view. I wonder how you came upon it and why? Have you seen this machinery up close as I have? Do you know it to be actual truth?

This may be a good jumping off point. You pray for Russia I'll pray for Ukraine and we shall see. A quote from Lincoln seems appropriate.

“Both read the same Bible and pray to the same God, and each invokes His aid against the other. It may seem strange that any men should dare to ask a just God’s assistance in wringing their bread from the sweat of other men’s faces, but let us judge not, that we be not judged. The prayers of both could not be answered. That of neither has been answered fully. The Almighty has His own purposes.” Abraham Lincoln, Second Inaugural Address, March 4, 1865.

I bid you adieu good thread and posters.

A heartfelt Merry Christmas (or preferred holiday tradition) and a Happy New Year to one and all!
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Re: West Provokes Russia to Protect Russians in Ukraine

Post by stuper1 » Thu Dec 22, 2022 9:07 pm

You know, being lied to over and over about this stuff by our leaders leads to cynicism after a while. I am by no means well read in this area, but from what small amount of reading I have done, it seems that lies have been used to needlessly bring us into almost every foreign war we have ever become involved in.

Remember the dramatic story about Iraqi soldiers dragging babies out of incubators in 1991, which was part of the story that got us into Gulf War I? Seems it was probably a lie.

Remember the WMDs that got us into Gulf War 2? You know, the WMDs that never existed, and which little ol' me, who basically knows nothing about this stuff, could see were fabricated from the beginning. So, we go into Iraq, topple a dictator, and how many hundreds of thousands Iraqis end up dying for this nonsense? And what's the end result? Do they have a stable democracy now? Of course not. You can't just march into a country that has never been a democracy and change their culture overnight.

I don't see Russia meddling in North America after the fall of the Soviet Union. Why do we have to be over there meddling on the fringes of Russia? Oh right, we're trying to destabilize their situation so they can get rid of the tyrant Putin. Well, be careful what you wish for, because the guy who comes after Putin might be twice as bad.

So, you go ahead and pray for the Ukrainian forces assisted by NATO. I'll be praying for the Ukrainian people to be finished with this nightmare as soon as possible. A nightmare caused by their own stupid leadership class. If the US would stop sending billions of dollars in aid over there for this stupid proxy war, this nightmare would probably be finished pretty quick, and the Ukrainian people could get back to living a normal life sooner.

How much of that money do you think has ended up in Zelensky's bank account? And yet he still can't seem to afford going to JCPenney and buying a suit to wear on his foreign begging trips. What a stupid charade.

And how much of those military supplies do you think will end up in the hands of possible bad actors and come to haunt who knows who in years to come? You sound like a guy who knows what goes on in the field during these kinds of operations. Do you think there's even a small chance that maybe some of these weapons are being sold off to possible bad actors to make illicit profits for some middle man?
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Re: West Provokes Russia to Protect Russians in Ukraine

Post by vnatale » Thu Dec 22, 2022 9:25 pm

stuper1 wrote:
Thu Dec 22, 2022 9:07 pm

You know, being lied to over and over about this stuff by our leaders leads to cynicism after a while. I am by no means well read in this area, but from what small amount of reading I have done, it seems that lies have been used to needlessly bring us into almost every foreign war we have ever become involved in.

Remember the dramatic story about Iraqi soldiers dragging babies out of incubators in 1991, which was part of the story that got us into Gulf War I? Seems it was probably a lie.

Remember the WMDs that got us into Gulf War 2? You know, the WMDs that never existed, and which little ol' me, who basically knows nothing about this stuff, could see were fabricated from the beginning. So, we go into Iraq, topple a dictator, and how many hundreds of thousands Iraqis end up dying for this nonsense? And what's the end result? Do they have a stable democracy now? Of course not. You can't just march into a country that has never been a democracy and change their culture overnight.

I don't see Russia meddling in North America after the fall of the Soviet Union. Why do we have to be over there meddling on the fringes of Russia? Oh right, we're trying to destabilize their situation so they can get rid of the tyrant Putin. Well, be careful what you wish for, because the guy who comes after Putin might be twice as bad.

So, you go ahead and pray for the Ukrainian forces assisted by NATO. I'll be praying for the Ukrainian people to be finished with this nightmare as soon as possible. A nightmare caused by their own stupid leadership class. If the US would stop sending billions of dollars in aid over there for this stupid proxy war, this nightmare would probably be finished pretty quick, and the Ukrainian people could get back to living a normal life sooner.

How much of that money do you think has ended up in Zelensky's bank account? And yet he still can't seem to afford going to JCPenney and buying a suit to wear on his foreign begging trips. What a stupid charade.

And how much of those military supplies do you think will end up in the hands of possible bad actors and come to haunt who knows who in years to come? You sound like a guy who knows what goes on in the field during these kinds of operations. Do you think there's even a small chance that maybe some of these weapons are being sold off to possible bad actors to make illicit profits for some middle man?


Again trying to point out where I agree or disagree with you.

Our entrance into several wars have been based upon lies.

The story about the incubators. Was just a story, not based upon fact.

You left out the Gulf of Tonkin which was the basis for our formal entrance into the Vietnam War and all the continual lies during that war to keep it going at great costs with little value provided.

There was no connection with Iraq and 9/11 but Obama's predecessor was just obsessed with going to war with Iraq so reasons for doing so were fabricated with the tragic consequences you describe.

However I support our country's efforts regarding all it is doing for Ukraine. We could not just stand by silent and uninvolved when Russia unleashes an invasion / war on another country. An unprovoked invasion / war. I know you and other can provide a long list of these alleged provocations. But this Russian reaction seems way, way, way out of proportion to those alleged provocations.

Finally, as Mr. Casual I get extremely excited when I see Zelensky dressed like me, like the common man rather than wearing the dreaded suit! I continually complain about the hosts on the MLB Network when I see them wearing suits. I keep saying, "They are just discussing baseball! There is no need for such formal dress!"
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Re: West Provokes Russia to Protect Russians in Ukraine

Post by flyingpylon » Thu Dec 22, 2022 9:34 pm

If what I've been reading here is correct, as long as it's all lies all the time, it's all good!
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Re: West Provokes Russia to Protect Russians in Ukraine

Post by stuper1 » Thu Dec 22, 2022 9:39 pm

Yes, Vinny, they've lied to us 100 times before, but this time they're not lying to us. It makes perfect sense to me. Charlie Brown felt the same way every time he went to kick the football that Lucy was holding for him.
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Re: West Provokes Russia to Protect Russians in Ukraine

Post by vnatale » Thu Dec 22, 2022 9:43 pm

flyingpylon wrote:
Thu Dec 22, 2022 9:34 pm

If what I've been reading here is correct, as long as it's all lies all the time, it's all good!


Is that a serious response to what I'd just written? If so, please quote me where I am saying that?
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Re: West Provokes Russia to Protect Russians in Ukraine

Post by vnatale » Thu Dec 22, 2022 9:45 pm

stuper1 wrote:
Thu Dec 22, 2022 9:39 pm

Yes, Vinny, they've lied to us 100 times before, but this time they're not lying to us. It makes perfect sense to me. Charlie Brown felt the same way every time he went to kick the football that Lucy was holding for him.


Are you taking the position that anything the government says to us regarding a war is always a lie? Anything it says to us regarding the military? Anything it says about anything?

I'm truly trying to get a definitive statement from you regarding what you do trust the government for and what you do not trust it for.
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Re: West Provokes Russia to Protect Russians in Ukraine

Post by vnatale » Thu Dec 22, 2022 9:48 pm

By the way ... for those who contend the American people are all sheep, unable to think for themselves, believe all that that government tells them ... how does that line up with this?

https://www.pewresearch.org/politics/20 ... 1958-2022/
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Re: West Provokes Russia to Protect Russians in Ukraine

Post by boglerdude » Thu Dec 22, 2022 11:08 pm

> for those who contend the American people are all sheep

But of course, SARS2 (which variant is it now?) is just as deadly as we're told. But we can lay that question aside.

My family is like this, they cannot even have the conversation. They refuse to listen to evidence. But to be fair, I'm still in some disbelief at what the government was able to pull off.

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