Inflation Reduction Act

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Inflation Reduction Act

Post by Jack Jones » Fri Aug 05, 2022 9:57 am

And while the plan is scaled back from Biden's initial Build Back Better package, the latest bill -- named the Inflation Reduction Act -- would represent the largest investment in energy and climate programs in US history, extend expiring health care subsidies for three years and give Medicare the power for the first time to negotiate prescription drug prices. The legislation would impose new taxes to pay for it.
This is not an Inflation Reduction Act. You don't reduce inflation by putting more money into the economy. Even if the new taxes do pay for the legislation (they won't), they won't be collected until later. So at best, this is an inflate-now-and-then-deflate-the-same-amount-later Act.
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Re: Inflation Reduction Act

Post by flyingpylon » Fri Aug 05, 2022 10:00 am

Jack Jones wrote:
Fri Aug 05, 2022 9:57 am
This is not an Inflation Reduction Act.
It is in clown world.
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Re: Inflation Reduction Act

Post by joypog » Fri Aug 05, 2022 10:03 am

But Larry Summers gave it his stamp of approval! :-*
I have no clue. Ask me next May.
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Re: Inflation Reduction Act

Post by vnatale » Fri Aug 05, 2022 10:11 am

joypog wrote:
Fri Aug 05, 2022 10:03 am

But Larry Summers gave it his stamp of approval! :-*


We shall see if the Republicans quote him endlessly on this as they did prior when he said the opposite for a different Act.

What is called when you quote an otherwise enemy / opponent by saying, "Even ..... agrees with us..."?

If he was an authority whose opinion was valued to be quoted by what logic does he no longer have authority to have an opinion which is valued so as to be quoted?
Last edited by vnatale on Fri Aug 05, 2022 10:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Inflation Reduction Act

Post by Jack Jones » Fri Aug 05, 2022 10:36 am

flyingpylon wrote:
Fri Aug 05, 2022 10:00 am
Jack Jones wrote:
Fri Aug 05, 2022 9:57 am
This is not an Inflation Reduction Act.
It is in clown world.
Queue the circus music.
Screen Shot 2022-08-05 at 11.26.51 AM.png
Screen Shot 2022-08-05 at 11.26.51 AM.png (389.18 KiB) Viewed 426 times
The stuff on the top is just estimates of money that will be saved. But you can count on the money under Total Investments being spent.

Corporate tax will just be passed onto consumers. That seems inflationary to me.

This is about spending money on the political issues du'jour. However, w/ inflation raging, that is unpalatable to the masses, so they needed to dress it up a bit.
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Re: Inflation Reduction Act

Post by glennds » Fri Aug 05, 2022 2:29 pm

d4dbhutv0xf91.jpg
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Re: Inflation Reduction Act

Post by doodle » Sat Aug 06, 2022 8:54 am

Not to try to push this conversation too far off on a tangent, but is there some recognition that failure to transition off fossil fuels could have massive inflationary impacts in the not too distant future? Haven't read the contents of inflation reduction act so can't comment on it's effectiveness but what role does leadership or legislative action play in moving humanity into a new era of energy production?. Was recently watching a couple videos on the Thwaites glacier in Antarctica. Apparently this thing is melting much faster than originally predicted by the models. Should warming and sea level rise scenarios come to pass much faster than originally anticipated wouldn't they have massive inflationary impacts on food production, relocation of millions of individuals, skyrocketing insurance and endless other issues arising from the abrupt changes the world would be forced to cope with?
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Re: Inflation Reduction Act

Post by Jack Jones » Sun Aug 07, 2022 8:21 am

doodle wrote:
Sat Aug 06, 2022 8:54 am
Haven't read the contents of inflation reduction act so can't comment on it's effectiveness but what role does leadership or legislative action play in moving humanity into a new era of energy production?
Their role should be to get out of the way. Energy is already one of the most regulated industries. The incentives are all messed up, so you're left w/ public money being spent on things that the market doesn't want, e.g. unreliable forms of energy.

Energy requires serious multi-decade investments. Who wants to put their money on the line to build a nuclear plant when the regulatory environment is so unstable?

Great cartoon, Glenn.
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Re: Inflation Reduction Act

Post by doodle » Sun Aug 07, 2022 1:34 pm

Jack Jones wrote:
Sun Aug 07, 2022 8:21 am
doodle wrote:
Sat Aug 06, 2022 8:54 am
Haven't read the contents of inflation reduction act so can't comment on it's effectiveness but what role does leadership or legislative action play in moving humanity into a new era of energy production?
Their role should be to get out of the way. Energy is already one of the most regulated industries. The incentives are all messed up, so you're left w/ public money being spent on things that the market doesn't want, e.g. unreliable forms of energy.

Energy requires serious multi-decade investments. Who wants to put their money on the line to build a nuclear plant when the regulatory environment is so unstable?

Great cartoon, Glenn.
So the market would transition smoothly to less polluting forms of energy on a timeline that coincided with the latest scientific research regarding climate change? I'm not saying what we have is working as far as government regulation, I'm just doubting that the alternative idea of some of the most powerful and wealthy corporations willingly transitioning away from a business model and infrastructure that has been and continues to be very successful. Seems like it would be more beneficial tfor them to squash potential upstarts and competitors in order to preserve the status quo.
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Re: Inflation Reduction Act

Post by Jack Jones » Mon Aug 08, 2022 10:38 am

doodle wrote:
Sun Aug 07, 2022 1:34 pm
So the market would transition smoothly to less polluting forms of energy on a timeline that coincided with the latest scientific research regarding climate change? I'm not saying what we have is working as far as government regulation, I'm just doubting that the alternative idea of some of the most powerful and wealthy corporations willingly transitioning away from a business model and infrastructure that has been and continues to be very successful. Seems like it would be more beneficial tfor them to squash potential upstarts and competitors in order to preserve the status quo.
I can't say, but I think as long as people are struggling to get by energy should be as cheap as possible. The alternative is rich people removing the ladder that got them there.

I wasn't expecting it, but it has provisions for nuclear energy:
Nuclear reactor operators such as Southern Co., Constellation Energy Corp., Public Service Enterprise Group Inc. and Energy Harbor Corp. also could see a boon from a $30 billion production tax credit for nuclear power providers.
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Re: Inflation Reduction Act

Post by Desert » Mon Aug 08, 2022 1:50 pm

It looks like a great bill, and one we need quite badly. The title change to Inflation Reduction Act seemed mostly aimed at satisfying Manchin and his constituents. It does appear to nudge the needle in the right direction on inflation in the short term, and hopefully moves the needle quite substantially in the long term since about 40% of current inflation is driven by fossil fuel price increases.

Private industry isn't going to move fast enough to decarbonize. When really big things need to be done (infrastructure, moon landings, decarbonization, etc.), government funding plays a key role, particularly at the outset. Tesla benefited from half a billion in DOE loans, for example. We need more successes like that.

Corporate taxes aren't quite the pass through to consumers that something like a consumption tax is. The tax rate is quite reasonable, and it's more about closing loopholes than anything else. A lot of corporate profits end up in stock buybacks and other executive payoffs. Bezos might have to buy a slightly smaller yacht next time, but I think he'll be okay.
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Re: Inflation Reduction Act

Post by flyingpylon » Mon Aug 08, 2022 2:52 pm

Desert wrote:
Mon Aug 08, 2022 1:50 pm
about 40% of current inflation is driven by fossil fuel price increases.
What do you think caused the fossil fuel price increases?
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Re: Inflation Reduction Act

Post by pugchief » Mon Aug 08, 2022 6:40 pm

Desert wrote:
Mon Aug 08, 2022 1:50 pm
It looks like a great bill, and one we need quite badly.
LOLOLOL.
Desert wrote:
Mon Aug 08, 2022 1:50 pm
The title change to Inflation Reduction Act seemed mostly aimed at satisfying Manchin and his constituents. It does appear to nudge the needle in the right direction on inflation in the short term, and hopefully moves the needle quite substantially in the long term since about 40% of current inflation is driven by fossil fuel price increases.
The title change is nothing more than attempt to delude stupid voters that this will help bring their gas, food and rent costs under control. Again, LOLOLOL
Desert wrote:
Mon Aug 08, 2022 1:50 pm
Private industry isn't going to move fast enough to decarbonize.
Fast enough for what? You can't just make an entire economy that is dependent on reliable energy give it up overnight. It needs to be gradual or there will be consequences.
Desert wrote:
Mon Aug 08, 2022 1:50 pm
Corporate taxes aren't quite the pass through to consumers that something like a consumption tax is. The tax rate is quite reasonable, and it's more about closing loopholes than anything else. A lot of corporate profits end up in stock buybacks and other executive payoffs. Bezos might have to buy a slightly smaller yacht next time, but I think he'll be okay.
The only good thing that would have come from this bill was closing the loophole on carried interest, and of course, they dropped that provision.
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Re: Inflation Reduction Act

Post by doodle » Mon Aug 08, 2022 6:41 pm

Jack Jones wrote:
Mon Aug 08, 2022 10:38 am

I can't say, but I think as long as people are struggling to get by energy should be as cheap as possible. The alternative is rich people removing the ladder that got them there.
Life is struggle….no matter how far the human race advances in living standards we will just keep moving the goalposts and define the present as a “struggle”. What’s going to be a real struggle is trying to figure out how to relocate a billion people + coastal infrastructure if we don’t start taking action.
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Re: Inflation Reduction Act

Post by Mountaineer » Mon Aug 08, 2022 6:45 pm

Time for another glass of Kool Aid. ;)
A fool takes no pleasure in understanding, but only in expressing his opinion.
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Re: Inflation Reduction Act

Post by Dieter » Mon Aug 08, 2022 7:42 pm

Ah, yes, the civil discourse this forum is known for
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Re: Inflation Reduction Act

Post by Dieter » Mon Aug 08, 2022 7:47 pm

Desert wrote:
Mon Aug 08, 2022 1:50 pm
It looks like a great bill, and one we need quite badly. The title change to Inflation Reduction Act seemed mostly aimed at satisfying Manchin and his constituents. It does appear to nudge the needle in the right direction on inflation in the short term, and hopefully moves the needle quite substantially in the long term since about 40% of current inflation is driven by fossil fuel price increases.

Private industry isn't going to move fast enough to decarbonize. When really big things need to be done (infrastructure, moon landings, decarbonization, etc.), government funding plays a key role, particularly at the outset. Tesla benefited from half a billion in DOE loans, for example. We need more successes like that.

Corporate taxes aren't quite the pass through to consumers that something like a consumption tax is. The tax rate is quite reasonable, and it's more about closing loopholes than anything else. A lot of corporate profits end up in stock buybacks and other executive payoffs. Bezos might have to buy a slightly smaller yacht next time, but I think he'll be okay.
I don't know enough to say great, but, seems like a lot of good in there.

I also wish the carried interest provision has been kept in, but, no republicans would vote for it, so it just took that one Senator from Arizona to pull it out. Well, the contributions and lobbying of those who benefit from the carried interest exception. It's good for the US. Really.
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Re: Inflation Reduction Act

Post by flyingpylon » Mon Aug 08, 2022 8:08 pm

Desert wrote:
Mon Aug 08, 2022 1:50 pm
The title change to Inflation Reduction Act seemed mostly aimed at satisfying Manchin and his constituents.
They could have just said it would be safe and effective.
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Re: Inflation Reduction Act

Post by pugchief » Mon Aug 08, 2022 8:30 pm

Dieter wrote:
Mon Aug 08, 2022 7:47 pm
.

I also wish the carried interest provision has been kept in, but, no republicans would vote for it, so it just took that one Senator from Arizona to pull it out. Well, the contributions and lobbying of those who benefit from the carried interest exception. It's good for the US. Really.
What difference does that make? No R was going to vote for this bill anyway. You got it right the second try; campaign contributions to and lobbying Sinema.
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Re: Inflation Reduction Act

Post by vnatale » Mon Aug 08, 2022 9:00 pm

On political issues I take the positions that is not the one that is most going to benefit me personally but, instead, the positions that best benefits our entire society.

This is about the first time I was hoping for something to pass strictly because it would benefit me personally.

This Act eliminates one of my two roadblocks to going solar. The carrying forward now becomes a moot point with the credit now being renewed for another 10 years. Plus rather the\an the 22% credit I was going to get for a 2023 installation it will now be a 30% credit.

Finally, in talking to another vendor this morning my other concern may have been allayed.

Back to the tax rate on carrying interest not being charged?

I heard that it was because a lot of small, non-hedge fund companies would also get taxed.

May be true or not. Or, valid or not.
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Re: Inflation Reduction Act

Post by Dieter » Mon Aug 08, 2022 9:42 pm

vnatale wrote:
Mon Aug 08, 2022 9:00 pm
On political issues I take the positions that is not the one that is most going to benefit me personally but, instead, the positions that best benefits our entire society.

This is about the first time I was hoping for something to pass strictly because it would benefit me personally.

This Act eliminates one of my two roadblocks to going solar. The carrying forward now becomes a moot point with the credit now being renewed for another 10 years. Plus rather the\an the 22% credit I was going to get for a 2023 installation it will now be a 30% credit.

Finally, in talking to another vendor this morning my other concern may have been allayed.
Great.

I might need to look into it as well
vnatale wrote:
Mon Aug 08, 2022 9:00 pm

Back to the tax rate on carrying interest not being charged?

I heard that it was because a lot of small, non-hedge fund companies would also get taxed.

May be true or not. Or, valid or not.
Hmm -- I haven't seen anything about that. Would be interesting if true.
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Re: Inflation Reduction Act

Post by vnatale » Mon Aug 08, 2022 10:27 pm

Dieter wrote:
Mon Aug 08, 2022 9:42 pm

vnatale wrote:
Mon Aug 08, 2022 9:00 pm

On political issues I take the positions that is not the one that is most going to benefit me personally but, instead, the positions that best benefits our entire society.

This is about the first time I was hoping for something to pass strictly because it would benefit me personally.

This Act eliminates one of my two roadblocks to going solar. The carrying forward now becomes a moot point with the credit now being renewed for another 10 years. Plus rather the\an the 22% credit I was going to get for a 2023 installation it will now be a 30% credit.

Finally, in talking to another vendor this morning my other concern may have been allayed.


Great.

I might need to look into it as well

vnatale wrote:
Mon Aug 08, 2022 9:00 pm


Back to the tax rate on carrying interest not being charged?

I heard that it was because a lot of small, non-hedge fund companies would also get taxed.

May be true or not. Or, valid or not.


Hmm -- I haven't seen anything about that. Would be interesting if true.


Here is what I have found (so far):

https://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow-sho ... -rcna41692

Sinema, however, has consistently said she’d oppose closing the loophole — at least in this bill — and yesterday, she successfully had it removed from the pending reconciliation package. Democratic leaders also tweaked the structure of a 15 percent corporate minimum tax and threw in some drought relief funding to benefit Arizona.

What about the money that closing the carried interest loophole was poised to generate? The New York Times summarized a different tax policy that will take its place:

Democrats instead added a new 1 percent excise tax that companies would have to pay on the amount of stock that they repurchase, said one Democratic official, who disclosed details of the plan on the condition of anonymity. That provision, the official said, would ensure that the package still reduces the federal deficit by as much as $300 billion, the same amount Democrats aimed for with the original deal and a key priority for Mr. Manchin.

While it’s certainly disappointing to many on the left that the carried interest loophole will remain in place, at least for now, the Center on Budget and Policy Priorities’ Chuck Marr explained that a 1 percent excise tax on stock buybacks is actually an entirely worthwhile policy.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics ... r-AA10o1UU

Sinema's office, however, argued that the senator is doing "what's best for Arizona" and concluded that disincentives to investments in businesses could be fatal to the economy.

"Kyrsten has been clear and consistent for over a year that she will only support tax reforms and revenue options that support Arizona's economic growth and competitiveness," her office said in a statement shared with Fox News Digital. "At a time of record inflation, rising interest rates, and slowing economic growth, disincentivizing investments in Arizona businesses would hurt Arizona's economy and ability to create jobs. Senator Sinema makes every decision based on one criteria: what’s best for Arizona."
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
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Re: Inflation Reduction Act

Post by Jack Jones » Tue Aug 09, 2022 5:35 am

doodle wrote:
Mon Aug 08, 2022 6:41 pm
Life is struggle….no matter how far the human race advances in living standards we will just keep moving the goalposts and define the present as a “struggle”. What’s going to be a real struggle is trying to figure out how to relocate a billion people + coastal infrastructure if we don’t start taking action.
How about access to electricity or clean fuel? They seem like pretty basic essentials, right?
940 million (13% of the world) do not have access to electricity.
3 billion (40% of the world) do not have access to clean fuels for cooking. This comes at a high health cost for indoor air pollution.
https://ourworldindata.org/energy-access

Also, I'll note that this winter I plan to burn more solid fuel (wood) than I normally would since my propane costs are going up.
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Re: Inflation Reduction Act

Post by Desert » Tue Aug 09, 2022 3:30 pm

Dieter wrote:
Mon Aug 08, 2022 7:42 pm
Ah, yes, the civil discourse this forum is known for
I have to remind myself that a significant fraction of the posters on this forum are drinking from a firehose of angry, reactionary, far right media every day. No rational discussion in a few posts can change that. The urge to be known as a victim is very strong in the U.S. right now. I've never seen it this bad.

So, I guess the choices are:
1. Respond to the "LOL" and "kool aid" comments, wasting everyone's time
2. Leave the board
3. Ignore the trolling and try to continue some sort of reasonable discussion
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Re: Inflation Reduction Act

Post by joypog » Tue Aug 09, 2022 3:39 pm

Desert wrote:
Tue Aug 09, 2022 3:30 pm
The urge to be known as a victim is very strong in the U.S. right now. I've never seen it this bad.
Yeah, everyone wants to be the lone man standing athwart history yelling stop. Whether its against racism (or against anti-racism) or COVID fascism (or protect the kids) or to protect Jesus (or save the republic from theocracy) or save unborn life (or prevent forced births)....etc, etc.

I wonder if it's ingrained in human nature to be the superman of our own narrative...but I suspect it's been amplified by social media dynamics.
I have no clue. Ask me next May.
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