Coronavirus General Discussion

[yankees60]

A new COVID vaccine is 66% effective — but how much does vaccine efficacy matter?

Moderna's is over 90%. Johnson & Johnson's is only 66%. We spoke to experts about what these numbers mean

https://www.salon.com/2021/02/07/how-mu ... -covid-19/

[yankees60]

There are multiple coronavirus vaccines available. Is any one of them better?

Americans may soon have four different coronavirus vaccines; experts weigh in on how they compare


https://www.salon.com/2021/02/06/there- ... em-better/

[pp4me]

Man dies 25 minutes after being vaccinated...

https://www.foxnews.com/health/new-york ... r-offiical

Not going to jump to the conclusion that it was triggered solely by the vaccination but this sentence got my attention....

"The incident occurred approximately 25 minutes after he was vaccinated, and following the required 15 minute observation period where he exhibited no adverse reactions or any distress," reads an emailed statement sent to Fox News.

I've had quite a number of vaccines over the course of my life including for polio and the flu but I don't recall there ever being a 15 minute observation period afterward, or even ANY observation period. So what's up with that?

[Mark Leavy]

From XKCD

vaccine_ordering_2x.png (162.68 KiB) Viewed 4287 times

[mathjak107]

Man dies 25 minutes after being vaccinated...

https://www.foxnews.com/health/new-york ... r-offiical

Not going to jump to the conclusion that it was triggered solely by the vaccination but this sentence got my attention....

"The incident occurred approximately 25 minutes after he was vaccinated, and following the required 15 minute observation period where he exhibited no adverse reactions or any distress," reads an emailed statement sent to Fox News.

I've had quite a number of vaccines over the course of my life including for polio and the flu but I don't recall there ever being a 15 minute observation period afterward, or even ANY observation period. So what's up with that?

These vaccines are released on an emergency basis , not the typical full trials spanning years

[yankees60]

There's hardly any flu this year. Coronavirus restrictions may be responsible


https://www.cnn.com/2021/02/09/health/c ... index.html

[Xan]

There's hardly any flu this year. Coronavirus restrictions may be responsible


https://www.cnn.com/2021/02/09/health/c ... index.html

Wait, so our distancing and masking and whatever has been so awesome that it has completely eradicated the flu? And yet it's so awful that everyone is dropping dead of COVID?

Surely it's much more likely that flu IS still going around, and killing plenty of people who also test positive for COVID.

[flyingpylon]

There's hardly any flu this year. Coronavirus restrictions may be responsible


https://www.cnn.com/2021/02/09/health/c ... index.html

Wait, so our distancing and masking and whatever has been so awesome that it has completely eradicated the flu? And yet it's so awful that everyone is dropping dead of COVID?

Surely it's much more likely that flu IS still going around, and killing plenty of people who also test positive for COVID.

Sorry but that doesn't fit the narrative.

[mathjak107]

There's hardly any flu this year. Coronavirus restrictions may be responsible


https://www.cnn.com/2021/02/09/health/c ... index.html

Wait, so our distancing and masking and whatever has been so awesome that it has completely eradicated the flu? And yet it's so awful that everyone is dropping dead of COVID?

Surely it's much more likely that flu IS still going around, and killing plenty of people who also test positive for COVID.

A panel of experts were talking about this .. they believe that it is rare for two respiratory viruses to be able to exist at the same same so millions with covid would very likely not get flu right off the bat ..then throw in masks and distancing and flu has barely showed its head

[SomeDude]

There's hardly any flu this year. Coronavirus restrictions may be responsible


https://www.cnn.com/2021/02/09/health/c ... index.html

Wait, so our distancing and masking and whatever has been so awesome that it has completely eradicated the flu? And yet it's so awful that everyone is dropping dead of COVID?

Surely it's much more likely that flu IS still going around, and killing plenty of people who also test positive for COVID.

Imagine if there was a flu test that was given out to 100% of the population every year regardless if they had symptoms or not.

I bet we'd have 30-40M people test positive.

Also imagine further that everyone who died for whatever reason but also tested positive for the flu was recorded as a "flu-related" death; and that hospitals were paid to record deaths as "flu-related".

I bet we'd have hundreds of thousands of "flu-related" deaths, just based on the fact that you can expect a few hundred thousand out of 40M people to die every year as a natural consequence of the FACT THAT ALL HUMANS die.

Coronavirus is the flu. And we had a fake mail-in presidential race because of it and gave up our rights and economy and caused massive misery because of it, because of the flu.

[mathjak107]

There's hardly any flu this year. Coronavirus restrictions may be responsible


https://www.cnn.com/2021/02/09/health/c ... index.html

Wait, so our distancing and masking and whatever has been so awesome that it has completely eradicated the flu? And yet it's so awful that everyone is dropping dead of COVID?

Surely it's much more likely that flu IS still going around, and killing plenty of people who also test positive for COVID.

Imagine if there was a flu test that was given out to 100% of the population every year regardless if they had symptoms or not.

I bet we'd have 30-40M people test positive.

Also imagine further that everyone who died for whatever reason but also tested positive for the flu was recorded as a "flu-related" death; and that hospitals were paid to record deaths as "flu-related".

I bet we'd have hundreds of thousands of "flu-related" deaths, just based on the fact that you can expect a few hundred thousand out of 40M people to die every year as a natural consequence of the FACT THAT ALL HUMANS die.

Coronavirus is the flu. And we had a fake mail-in presidential race because of it and gave up our rights and economy and caused massive misery because of it, because of the flu.

You need a good case to learn the difference between the flu and covid ...having had covid and the flu I can tell you when covid takes over there is no comparison.

We have never had such an age graduated disease like covid ...compared to a kid a senior has a 7500 x greater chance of being hospitalized or dying .

So no covid ain’t like the flu unless you have a mild case.. I love how those who have either not had it or had very mild cases go covid ain’t so bad.

My wife and I would be more than happy to have swapped our covid cases for the flu

[yankees60]

All the COVID virus in the world could fit in a can of coke, says mathematician

British expert says his work shows just how much hardship and loss of life is being caused by miniscule viral particles.


https://news.sky.com/story/all-the-covi ... sf-twitter

[WiseOne]

Yeah, this is kind of what I thought would happen: the annual winter surge in hospitalizations and death + super-sensitive COVID test = continued high number of "cases" forever. So how do you know when to stop?

I'm going to guess that the only thing that will end the masks, lockdowns etc will be a Republican sweep in the White House and Congress. Hopefully we won't have to wait longer than 2024 for that. In the meantime though...don't expect anything to change.

[mathjak107]

Eventually when enough get it or are vaccinated the herd immunity works...

Because there are two moving targets , the vaccine working and the number coming down for chance of exposure we could be fairly near an end unles it mutates enough to reappear...

[WiseOne]

Eventually when enough get it or are vaccinated the herd immunity works...

That won't stop the madness. Because the vaccines aren't designed to stop viral infection or transmission. They're designed to control symptoms. The current definition of cases according to the press, Fauci, and the Democrats is a positive PCR test, regardless of symptoms. The PCR test will pick up small viral fragments, which you will have if you were vaccinated and then exposed.

[mathjak107]

All you need to do is reduce the spread of covid cases that result in hospitalization or dying ...we all can deal with flu or cold like symptoms .

That is what vaccines do , especially like the Johnson and Johnson one ..they have effectively reduced the seriousness of it down to a crawl.


Our own immune systems will deal with the rest ...

Forget faucci ....if you want a good source off data wartch the zdogg md videos ...his panels of experts are second to none and all these quest are looked at

https://zdoggmd.com/one-dose-vaccine/

[Tortoise]

So no covid ain’t like the flu unless you have a mild case.. I love how those who have either not had it or had very mild cases go covid ain’t so bad

The people who say "Covid ain't so bad" are usually saying it in the context that it isn't bad enough for a large enough portion of the population to justify the one-size-fits-all, heavy-handed policy overreactions that have seriously damaged our economy, our children's education and socialization, and millions of people's freedom and pursuit of happiness over the past year. And I fully agree with them.

It's unfortunate that a small fraction of the population suffers very bad cases of Covid. It really is. But there are ways to mitigate the risk for that small group without making the entire society grind to a virtual halt.

[mathjak107]

So no covid ain’t like the flu unless you have a mild case.. I love how those who have either not had it or had very mild cases go covid ain’t so bad

The people who say "Covid ain't so bad" are usually saying it in the context that it isn't bad enough for a large enough portion of the population to justify the one-size-fits-all, heavy-handed policy overreactions that have seriously damaged our economy, our children's education and socialization, and millions of people's freedom and pursuit of happiness over the past year. And I fully agree with them.

It's unfortunate that a small fraction of the population suffers very bad cases of Covid. It really is. But there are ways to mitigate the risk for that small group without making the entire society grind to a virtual halt.

I agree ...there were huge mistakes made in how our politicians handled this.. interesting look at the school situation


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=e7p1yug86dw

[SomeDude]

You need a good case to learn the difference between the flu and covid ...having had covid and the flu I can tell you when covid takes over there is no comparison.

We have never had such an age graduated disease like covid ...compared to a kid a senior has a 7500 x greater chance of being hospitalized or dying .

So no covid ain’t like the flu unless you have a mild case.. I love how those who have either not had it or had very mild cases go covid ain’t so bad.

My wife and I would be more than happy to have swapped our covid cases for the flu

mj I am not disputing you and your wife were awfully sick. I will happily admit that the only first-hand positive test-cases in my life are all people under 50, about 10 or so friends. To a person they all described it as a mild cold.

Regarding the age graduated nature of the flu, I looked at the CDC's numbers.

For the 2018-2019, there were approximately 23 million symptomatic cases for people aged 0-49 with 3k deaths. For seniors it was 3M symptomatic cases and 26k deaths.

That amounts to about a 6,600% greater chance of death if you are symptomatic and a senior vs. symptomatic and under 49, a graduation level that surprised me.

One can only assume that you're also less likely to by symptomatic if you're under 49 so the numbers might approach 10,000% greater chance of seniors dying from contracting the flu (but not necessarily exhibiting symptoms).

[SomeDude]

So no covid ain’t like the flu unless you have a mild case.. I love how those who have either not had it or had very mild cases go covid ain’t so bad

The people who say "Covid ain't so bad" are usually saying it in the context that it isn't bad enough for a large enough portion of the population to justify the one-size-fits-all, heavy-handed policy overreactions that have seriously damaged our economy, our children's education and socialization, and millions of people's freedom and pursuit of happiness over the past year. And I fully agree with them.

Yes this is what I'm getting at. The tallest man in the world is Chinese, but I wouldn't classify the Chinese as tall people or come up with a government "policy" to deal with the excessive height of the Chinese.

[Tortoise]

[...] the vaccines aren't designed to stop viral infection or transmission. They're designed to control symptoms. The current definition of cases according to the press, Fauci, and the Democrats is a positive PCR test, regardless of symptoms. The PCR test will pick up small viral fragments, which you will have if you were vaccinated and then exposed.

I saw a doctor recently argue that the people who are testing positive for Covid even after being vaccinated may not actually be infectious. As you pointed out, if the PCR test has its cycle threshold set too high -- which it usually does -- it will pick up viral fragments even if there's no live virus present in the person.

The only way to know for sure if the test subject is infectious is to perform a viral culture, which they currently aren't doing. They just assume a positive PCR test result means the person is infectious. This likely leads to the incorrect conclusion that the vaccines are less effective than they really are.

[Xan]

The only way to know for sure if the test subject is infectious is to perform a viral culture, which they currently aren't doing. They just assume a positive PCR test result means the person is infectious. This likely leads to the incorrect conclusion that the vaccines are less effective than they really are.

Which means the vaccines are astoundingly effective, and a truly amazing achievement.

[mathjak107]

[...] the vaccines aren't designed to stop viral infection or transmission. They're designed to control symptoms. The current definition of cases according to the press, Fauci, and the Democrats is a positive PCR test, regardless of symptoms. The PCR test will pick up small viral fragments, which you will have if you were vaccinated and then exposed.

I saw a doctor recently argue that the people who are testing positive for Covid even after being vaccinated may not actually be infectious. As you pointed out, if the PCR test has its cycle threshold set too high -- which it usually does -- it will pick up viral fragments even if there's no live virus present in the person.

The only way to know for sure if the test subject is infectious is to perform a viral culture, which they currently aren't doing. They just assume a positive PCR test result means the person is infectious. This likely leads to the incorrect conclusion that the vaccines are less effective than they really are.

We really have to look at it as the vaccines can still have some asymptomatic transmission..but that is not a problem ....yes ,someone can get it and test positive but the fact is the severity of the disease has been shown to to be way reduced that is passed along ...

Not being hospitalized and not dying are the real goals .

That is what is important .....the fact the data shows people are not being hospitalized or dying from asymptomatic transmission after being vaccinated as per dr Otif from the fda advisory committee who has to study all this data

[Tortoise]

Not being hospitalized and not dying are the real goals .

Agreed. The hard part is convincing the media, governments, etc. that those are the real goals rather than “cases”. Instead, all they seem to focus on is cases, cases, cases...

And as WiseOne has pointed out numerous times, we’re not even using the correct, traditional definition of “case” for Covid. We’re using a much weaker definition that vastly inflates the numbers and makes it harder to have rational discussions about what’s actually happening.

[mathjak107]

We all agree there.

But this is only since the vaccines....prior I certainly could get a severe case from anyone who may be asymptomatic...

So we are only talking about those vaccinated and since the vaccines ..other wise it is a whole different story as far as transmission.

I believe the case we had may have been from someone either asymptomatic or presymptomatic