Trump self pardon

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Trump self pardon

Post by doodle » Tue Nov 17, 2020 10:07 pm

Anyone want to make any predictions about whether Trump pardons himself before end of term...or steps down and has Pence pardon him?...of course that doesn't get him off the hook for state charges....which he might be getting hit with here shortly.
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Re: Trump self pardon

Post by Mark Leavy » Wed Nov 18, 2020 1:01 am

doodle wrote:
Tue Nov 17, 2020 10:07 pm
Anyone want to make any predictions about whether Trump pardons himself before end of term...or steps down and has Pence pardon him?...of course that doesn't get him off the hook for state charges....which he might be getting hit with here shortly.
Take a deep breath doodle.
I know it's easy to get caught up in the furor of the day.

But this isn't going to happen. There are no monsters under your bed.
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Re: Trump self pardon

Post by doodle » Wed Nov 18, 2020 7:31 am

tomfoolery wrote:
Wed Nov 18, 2020 12:46 am
doodle wrote:
Tue Nov 17, 2020 10:07 pm
Anyone want to make any predictions about whether Trump pardons himself before end of term...or steps down and has Pence pardon him?...of course that doesn't get him off the hook for state charges....which he might be getting hit with here shortly.
What did he do that would require a pardon?
As far as I've read there are more than a dozen investigations now underway...both federal and state.
A lot of this hinges on what happens at department of justice and who the new Attorney General is and what the countrys appetite is to make sure we see a more even handed application of justice between classes. Obviously pardoning himself would only protect him from federal charges and he is likely to face state charges in New York I think. He has been closely guarding his tax returns because he knows, as I think every reasonable person who is a billionaire and pays 750 dollars in taxes knows,...there is funny business going on. So the biggest threat I think he faces off the bat is tax fraud...writing off hush money as business expenses for example, weird schemes to funnel money to children tax free...I'm not a tax attorney but Im pretty sure there are many who are ready to dig their hooks into him. Then, the Mueller investigation was not tasked with criminally investigating the president. Sitting presidents can't be indicted for federal crimes....however anyone who watched Muellers testimony before the house would see that Mueller did not exonerate the president...I'm sure there is plenty there to run with..bribery, obstruction of justice.

All I'm saying is Trump is a lying cheating conman of epic proportions. It's never happened to a US president but italy's Berlusconi or brazils Lula were both prosecuted and jailed after leaving office. I would not be surprised if after this election fiasco that the Trump drama train continues.
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Re: Trump self pardon

Post by Cortopassi » Wed Nov 18, 2020 8:23 am

I give 50/50 chance to prosecuting him for various things vs. just letting him ride off into the sunset of right wing talk radio/internet/TV without prosecution.
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Re: Trump self pardon

Post by pmward » Wed Nov 18, 2020 8:35 am

Yeah, there probably is legitimate cases against him. But, I'm not sure the status quo of rich powerful men having a get out of jail free card is going to end. I think at the end of the day, whether he pardons himself or not, nothing will really come from it. Maybe he has to pay some back taxes or something like that. I don't think he will see jail time or anything like that, and since he is such a bullshit artist I'm sure he will come through whatever happens (even jail) without the influence and power over his "core" changing. He will have some whacky conspiracy theory that they all bite into hook, line, and sinker.
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Re: Trump self pardon

Post by Maddy » Wed Nov 18, 2020 8:52 am

Trump must be winning.
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Re: Trump self pardon

Post by doodle » Wed Nov 18, 2020 10:35 am

Maddy wrote:
Wed Nov 18, 2020 8:52 am
Trump must be winning.
Perhaps in our country where currently up is down and backwards is forwards.
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Re: Trump self pardon

Post by Lonestar » Thu Nov 19, 2020 8:25 am

How do you "pardon" someone who has not been formally accused or convicted of an actual crime?

Throughout Trump's administration the MSM as continuously based their rhetoric on "what if" scenarios. Granted, Trump has done his best to give them ammunition, but how do folks get so fired up over "what if" we find Trump did this or that?
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Re: Trump self pardon

Post by doodle » Thu Nov 19, 2020 11:54 am

Lonestar wrote:
Thu Nov 19, 2020 8:25 am
How do you "pardon" someone who has not been formally accused or convicted of an actual crime?

Throughout Trump's administration the MSM as continuously based their rhetoric on "what if" scenarios. Granted, Trump has done his best to give them ammunition, but how do folks get so fired up over "what if" we find Trump did this or that?
I don't know...I wonder if there is a blanket pardon he can give himself for all potential future federal indictments. I'm thinking he's going to be spending a lot more time in court once the presidential force field is taken away.
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Re: Trump self pardon

Post by glennds » Fri Nov 20, 2020 3:33 pm

Lonestar wrote:
Thu Nov 19, 2020 8:25 am
How do you "pardon" someone who has not been formally accused or convicted of an actual crime?

Throughout Trump's administration the MSM as continuously based their rhetoric on "what if" scenarios. Granted, Trump has done his best to give them ammunition, but how do folks get so fired up over "what if" we find Trump did this or that?
It is my understanding that the presidential pardon can apply to any federal crimes committed up to the date of the pardon, even if they are not charged or known. The pardon can be blanket in nature. The pardon issued by Ford to Nixon was a blanket pardon, bounded only by start and end dates:
......Now, THEREFORE, I, GERALD R. FORD, President of the United States, pursuant to the pardon power conferred upon me by Article II, Section 2, of the Constitution, have granted and by these presents do grant a full, free, and absolute pardon unto Richard Nixon for all offenses against the United States which he, Richard Nixon, has committed or may have committed or taken part in during the period from January 20, 1969 through August 9,1974.
However, a presidential pardon cannot apply to crimes committed after the date of the pardon.

Whether a self pardon is constitutional is a murkier area. Some say it is, some say it is not. Thus far no president has attempted to pardon himself, so the issue has not been tested. But Trump, being the innovator he is may be the first to try it. Others believe he may turn over power to Pence and have him do it. Either way if it is to happen, we'll find out soon enough.

Of course the presidential pardon does not apply to state crimes, or Federal civil charges.
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Re: Trump self pardon

Post by Ad Orientem » Fri Nov 20, 2020 5:24 pm

It's coming. There will be a wave of pardons... for his kids, his businesses, his lawyers and accountants, his allies and lastly... for himself. As noted these will not get him out of dutch with the state of New York. But it will eliminate the very real danger of interstate wire, bank, insurance fraud and Federal income tax evasion. The only downsides are that under the law, issuance and acceptance of a pardon is considered a legal admission to having committed one or more crimes. Also a person once pardoned and having the threat of criminal prosecution lifted may forfeit their 5th amendment right to refuse to testify under oath as they have de-facto immunity. Of course the lingering threat of state level criminal indictments could complicate that.
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Re: Trump self pardon

Post by Cortopassi » Fri Nov 20, 2020 7:22 pm

If he does this, I sure hope at least some percentage of his adherents realize they've been bamboozled.
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Re: Trump self pardon

Post by Ad Orientem » Fri Nov 20, 2020 7:31 pm

Cortopassi wrote:
Fri Nov 20, 2020 7:22 pm
If he does this, I sure hope at least some percentage of his adherents realize they've been bamboozled.

I think many of them are too far gone. For them Donald Trump has become a messianic figure, which is why I have said that the GOP has become a cult of personality. For the true believers, some of whom do post on this forum, they have become drunk on Trump's Kool-Aid. A few years back Trump bragged he could shoot someone in broad daylight and would not loose many supporters. It was a very rare case of his being truthful.
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Re: Trump self pardon

Post by vnatale » Fri Nov 20, 2020 7:32 pm

Ad Orientem wrote:
Fri Nov 20, 2020 7:31 pm
Cortopassi wrote:
Fri Nov 20, 2020 7:22 pm
If he does this, I sure hope at least some percentage of his adherents realize they've been bamboozled.

I think many of them are too far gone. For them Donald Trump has become a messianic figure, which is why I have said that the GOP has become a cult of personality. For the true believers, some of whom do post on this forum, they have become drunk on Trump's Kool-Aid. A few years back Trump bragged he could shoot someone in broad daylight and would not loose many supporters. It was a very rare case of his being truthful.
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Vinny
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
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Re: Trump self pardon

Post by vnatale » Fri Nov 20, 2020 8:45 pm

Ad Orientem wrote:
Fri Nov 20, 2020 7:31 pm
Cortopassi wrote:
Fri Nov 20, 2020 7:22 pm
If he does this, I sure hope at least some percentage of his adherents realize they've been bamboozled.

I think many of them are too far gone. For them Donald Trump has become a messianic figure, which is why I have said that the GOP has become a cult of personality. For the true believers, some of whom do post on this forum, they have become drunk on Trump's Kool-Aid. A few years back Trump bragged he could shoot someone in broad daylight and would not loose many supporters. It was a very rare case of his being truthful.
The below is at the beginning of a book I am just starting to read. It echoes what you have written above.

Vinny


For a few years, Gingrich was regarded as a sideshow member of Congress, and his speeches reinforced this status. Among the choicest examples was his claim that under Democrats, “we in America could experience the joys of Soviet-style brutality and murdering of women and children.” He said Speaker of the House Thomas P. “Tip” O’Neill “may not understand freedom versus slavery” and that in contesting the election results in one congressional district Democrats resembled Nazis. As he used this talk to claim the pure center of the GOP, Gingrich moved from the fringe to a place of influence. By 1985, he would lead a coterie of like-minded House members and declare, “I’m unavoidable. I represent real power.”

Hillary Clinton was among the first big enemies Gingrich promoted. (He famously called her “a bitch.”) Thus he applied his warfare method to the GOP’s opponents and then to purge moderates from the party who were called RINOs for Republicans in Name Only. As Gingrich and others became even more rabid they attacked the very idea of verifiable facts like the science behind climate change and adapted to admit conspiracy theories about everything from vaccines to the assassination of John F. Kennedy. In some corners, a conservative’s identity would depend on his or her willingness to embrace such extreme notions. The more feverish the thought—the Clintons order murders!—the more stalwart the believer.4

The swell of distortion and hatred had begun cresting after the election of Barack Obama in 2008. Even before he took office, Obama was accused of plotting to overthrow the United States on behalf of Muslim antagonists, secretly marrying a Pakistani man, and refusing to recite the Pledge of Allegiance. After his inauguration Obama was blamed for mass shootings and individual murders. One congressional Republican warned Obama would soon send young Americans to political reeducation camps. Faith in such outlandish ideas seemed to be part of GOP identity. A year after Obama released his birth certificate in 2011, only 27 percent of Republicans believed he was native-born. By 2016, Hillary Clinton was the primary subject of GOP voters’ fever dreams, which placed her in the middle of countless crimes and conspiracies, including of a pedophile ring operating in the basement of a pizzeria in Washington, D.C. There was no pedophile group, and the restaurant had no basement, but in a poll, nearly half of GOP voters said they either believed, or were open to accepting, the pizza pedophile story.5

Much of the energy behind the anti-fact extremism was generated by long-standing appeals to so-called culture war issues framed in apocalyptic terms. Beginning in the 1970s, right-wing activists and fund-raisers sought to terrify voters with mass mailings and broadcasts that purported to reveal hidden forces of depravity and destruction. Urgent action was needed because, among other things, Democrats were trying to force parents to pay children minimum wage for chores; the United Nations was bent on destroying American families; schools were teaching children that “cannibalism, wife swapping, and the murder of infants and the elderly are acceptable behavior.” Much of this harebrained propaganda emanated from television evangelists such as the Reverend Jerry Falwell, who, in 1981, told his flock that gay people were out to “recruit” their children into homosexuality, and the Reverend Pat Roberston, who, in 1986, called non-Christians “termites” worthy of “fumigation.”
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
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Re: Trump self pardon

Post by Ad Orientem » Fri Nov 20, 2020 9:02 pm

Indeed. The way the political right in this country has so enthusiastically embraced lunatic conspiracy theories, and moved more and more into information bubbles that serve only to reinforce these delusional beliefs and other frankly extremist ideas, is deeply worrisome. This is how hitherto stable and healthy societies become destabilized with the radicalization of large segments of the population. And I honestly don't know what to do about it. There reaches a point where the true believers become impervious to facts and reason and withdraw into their own fantasy world of dark and malevolent left wing conspiracies. History has shown that once you reach a certain point, violence becomes the next logical step in "resistance" to the perceived enemy. I think we are getting very close to a tipping point beyond which things could get ugly fast.
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Re: Trump self pardon

Post by doodle » Sat Nov 21, 2020 8:33 am

Simonjester wrote:
Ad Orientem wrote:
Fri Nov 20, 2020 9:02 pm
Indeed. The way the political left in this country has so enthusiastically embraced lunatic conspiracy theories, and moved more and more into information bubbles that serve only to reinforce these delusional beliefs and other frankly extremist ideas, is deeply worrisome. This is how hitherto stable and healthy societies become destabilized with the radicalization of large segments of the population. And I honestly don't know what to do about it. There reaches a point where the true believers become impervious to facts and reason and withdraw into their own fantasy world of dark and malevolent right wing conspiracies. History has shown that once you reach a certain point, violence becomes the next logical step in "resistance" to the perceived enemy. I think we are getting very close to a tipping point beyond which things could get ugly fast.
fixed this for you.. just to make the point that it absolutely applies to the other side in equal measure..

the problem isn't that what you are stating isn't true,, the problem is that both sides are blind to the fact that it "absolutely applies to the other side in equal measure" the country was far saner when all Americans had an inherent (rational/justified) distrust of government..

in defense of the forums trump supporters I suspect that few or none of us/them are viewing trump as a messianic figure, he is a hot mess of a president.. rational skeptics and those righteously fearful of tyrants see him as the lesser of two bad choices. the left leaning cant seem to grasp the subtlety of that difference or the need to DISTRUST THEM ALL..
The vast majority of loony conspiracy theories emanate from the political right wing. Whether it's the absurd theories of QAnon, anti vaxxers, Alex Jones Lizard people deep state shit, nutjob evangelicals... there is something about the right wing that breeds this. I do not see a similar penchant among people on the left.
Simonjester wrote: And thank you to doodle for proving of the point....
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Re: Trump self pardon

Post by doodle » Sat Nov 21, 2020 9:00 am

Simonjester wrote: And thank you to doodle for proving of the point....
I won't argue that the left doesn't have some bad ideas...but loony conspiracies....please enlighten me.
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Re: Trump self pardon

Post by pmward » Sat Nov 21, 2020 9:03 am

Simonjester wrote:
Ad Orientem wrote:
Fri Nov 20, 2020 9:02 pm
Indeed. The way the political left in this country has so enthusiastically embraced lunatic conspiracy theories, and moved more and more into information bubbles that serve only to reinforce these delusional beliefs and other frankly extremist ideas, is deeply worrisome. This is how hitherto stable and healthy societies become destabilized with the radicalization of large segments of the population. And I honestly don't know what to do about it. There reaches a point where the true believers become impervious to facts and reason and withdraw into their own fantasy world of dark and malevolent right wing conspiracies. History has shown that once you reach a certain point, violence becomes the next logical step in "resistance" to the perceived enemy. I think we are getting very close to a tipping point beyond which things could get ugly fast.
fixed this for you.. just to make the point that it absolutely applies to the other side in equal measure..

the problem isn't that what you are stating isn't true,, the problem is that both sides are blind to the fact that it "absolutely applies to the other side in equal measure" the country was far saner when all Americans had an inherent (rational/justified) distrust of government..

in defense of the forums trump supporters I suspect that few or none of us/them are viewing trump as a messianic figure, he is a hot mess of a president.. rational skeptics and those righteously fearful of tyrants see him as the lesser of two bad choices. the left leaning cant seem to grasp the subtlety of that difference or the need to DISTRUST THEM ALL..
I agree with you here on quite a bit actually. Though, I see Biden as the lesser of two bad choices by a long shot. Also, I believe the lunatic conspiracy theories on the "right" are much more extreme and delusional than those on the "left", though I do agree they do exist. Both sides have their populist propaganda. But on the "right" it's like looney bin tin-foil hat level these days. I trust National Enquirer more than I trust "right" media these days.
Simonjester wrote: i trust NO MEDIA at all these days, mainstream media including the ones passing themselves off as right wing are all bought and payed for by those corrupted by power..
i will concede that there is a tendency for some to take a justifiable paranoia and run with it to the point of absurdity (Alex Jones types) but being a distrustful skeptic myself i tend to suspect that some or all of the wakadoo stuff is little more than another bought and payed for attempt to discredit the very same justifiable paranoia. if you take a common sense rational/justified distrust of government and connect it to a nut case you make all the real reasons to distrust government look shady..
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Re: Trump self pardon

Post by doodle » Sat Nov 21, 2020 9:16 am

pmward wrote:
Sat Nov 21, 2020 9:03 am
Simonjester wrote:
Ad Orientem wrote:
Fri Nov 20, 2020 9:02 pm
Indeed. The way the political left in this country has so enthusiastically embraced lunatic conspiracy theories, and moved more and more into information bubbles that serve only to reinforce these delusional beliefs and other frankly extremist ideas, is deeply worrisome. This is how hitherto stable and healthy societies become destabilized with the radicalization of large segments of the population. And I honestly don't know what to do about it. There reaches a point where the true believers become impervious to facts and reason and withdraw into their own fantasy world of dark and malevolent right wing conspiracies. History has shown that once you reach a certain point, violence becomes the next logical step in "resistance" to the perceived enemy. I think we are getting very close to a tipping point beyond which things could get ugly fast.
fixed this for you.. just to make the point that it absolutely applies to the other side in equal measure..

the problem isn't that what you are stating isn't true,, the problem is that both sides are blind to the fact that it "absolutely applies to the other side in equal measure" the country was far saner when all Americans had an inherent (rational/justified) distrust of government..

in defense of the forums trump supporters I suspect that few or none of us/them are viewing trump as a messianic figure, he is a hot mess of a president.. rational skeptics and those righteously fearful of tyrants see him as the lesser of two bad choices. the left leaning cant seem to grasp the subtlety of that difference or the need to DISTRUST THEM ALL..
I agree with you here on quite a bit actually. Though, I see Biden as the lesser of two bad choices by a long shot. Also, I believe the lunatic conspiracy theories on the "right" are much more extreme and delusional than those on the "left", though I do agree they do exist. Both sides have their populist propaganda. But on the "right" it's like looney bin tin-foil hat level these days. I trust National Enquirer more than I trust "right" media these days.
Any left wing conspiracies are seriously fringe whereas on the right they are entirely mainstream. That's the difference. The left is full of bad ideas however...I will grant you that
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Re: Trump self pardon

Post by pmward » Sat Nov 21, 2020 9:20 am

doodle wrote:
Sat Nov 21, 2020 9:16 am
pmward wrote:
Sat Nov 21, 2020 9:03 am
Simonjester wrote:
Ad Orientem wrote:
Fri Nov 20, 2020 9:02 pm
Indeed. The way the political left in this country has so enthusiastically embraced lunatic conspiracy theories, and moved more and more into information bubbles that serve only to reinforce these delusional beliefs and other frankly extremist ideas, is deeply worrisome. This is how hitherto stable and healthy societies become destabilized with the radicalization of large segments of the population. And I honestly don't know what to do about it. There reaches a point where the true believers become impervious to facts and reason and withdraw into their own fantasy world of dark and malevolent right wing conspiracies. History has shown that once you reach a certain point, violence becomes the next logical step in "resistance" to the perceived enemy. I think we are getting very close to a tipping point beyond which things could get ugly fast.
fixed this for you.. just to make the point that it absolutely applies to the other side in equal measure..

the problem isn't that what you are stating isn't true,, the problem is that both sides are blind to the fact that it "absolutely applies to the other side in equal measure" the country was far saner when all Americans had an inherent (rational/justified) distrust of government..

in defense of the forums trump supporters I suspect that few or none of us/them are viewing trump as a messianic figure, he is a hot mess of a president.. rational skeptics and those righteously fearful of tyrants see him as the lesser of two bad choices. the left leaning cant seem to grasp the subtlety of that difference or the need to DISTRUST THEM ALL..
I agree with you here on quite a bit actually. Though, I see Biden as the lesser of two bad choices by a long shot. Also, I believe the lunatic conspiracy theories on the "right" are much more extreme and delusional than those on the "left", though I do agree they do exist. Both sides have their populist propaganda. But on the "right" it's like looney bin tin-foil hat level these days. I trust National Enquirer more than I trust "right" media these days.
Any left wing conspiracies are seriously fringe whereas on the right they are entirely mainstream. That's the difference. The left is full of bad ideas but doesn't seem to have the type of brain structure necessary to suspend belief and override contradictory evidence the way that people on the conservative side of the spectrum do.
Yes exactly. Though "left" media admittedly does show a lot of bias. It is really difficult to find non-partisan media these days. What I've found interesting in the last couple weeks though, is Fox News of all places starting to try to distance themselves from the tin-foil hat right delusion. Like we actually reached the tipping point where even Fox News got uncomfortable. That says a lot. It also says a lot when Trump's followers start to revolt against Fox News for taking a step back and reducing the amount (and extremity) of false propaganda they report. Like how has Trump's word become the gold standard judge of what is truth or not for millions of Americans? This fact honestly scares the shit out of me!
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Re: Trump self pardon

Post by sophie » Sat Nov 21, 2020 9:36 am

Ad Orientem wrote:
Fri Nov 20, 2020 7:31 pm
For them Donald Trump has become a messianic figure, which is why I have said that the GOP has become a cult of personality. For the true believers, some of whom do post on this forum, they have become drunk on Trump's Kool-Aid.
Gee Ad, tell us what you really think?

I've said repeatedly that I recognize that Trump has a lot of personality issues and that his Twitter posts are an embarrassment to the office. I get all that, and so do most of his supporters (including those on the forum).

The whole issue, which you all in the Biden/Harris camp cannot seem to understand no matter how many times we say it, is that it is not the only criterion for judging the quality of a President. I happen to care far more about policies, i.e. substance, than style (i.e. the twitter rants). If you judge Trump by his policies, he is one of the most successful Presidents in decades. I decided I want more of that, and am willing to put up with his personal style in order to get it.

Not only that, but the policies promoted by the other side scare me, and will do severe, long-lasting damage to this country. Sure, Biden will act more presidential than Trump. It just depends on how you weigh those two considerations. I do not appreciate the name calling of people like me who happen to weigh those two things differently than you. I would say that this is more of a cause of the polarization you complain about constantly than anything Trump has done.
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Re: Trump self pardon

Post by doodle » Sat Nov 21, 2020 9:40 am

Wackadoodle Michigan state senator starts singing bible songs when asked straightforward questions regarding election. Head scratcher...

https://www.reddit.com/r/cringe/commen ... ium=mweb
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Re: Trump self pardon

Post by Lonestar » Sat Nov 21, 2020 10:58 am

I'd probably become a "Wackadoodle" if I had some bimbo running her mouth like that in my ear! Just watching the video reminded me of fingernails scratching on a chalkboard. How would you react to being in an airport and having someone, uninvited, following you around?
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Re: Trump self pardon

Post by doodle » Sat Nov 21, 2020 11:04 am

Lonestar wrote:
Sat Nov 21, 2020 10:58 am
I'd probably become a "Wackadoodle" if I had some bimbo running her mouth like that in my ear! Just watching the video reminded me of fingernails scratching on a chalkboard. How would you react to being in an airport and having someone, uninvited, following you around?
Considering that he is an elected official specifically called to Washington to meet with the president about overthrowing the peoples vote by conducting a legislative branch coup, I'd have the spine to answer some questions instead of just singing bible hymns. What is that about? You hate spineless politicians? Then why do you keep defending them. She didn't ask any questions that were outside the pale. The only bimbo I see is him
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