"Emergency" preparedness

[Benko]

I ran across an ad for a "Food Shortage Survival Package" which I suspect is just someone trying to make some money, but it did start me wondering.  Beyond the obvious e.g. "money" (paper money, gold/silver), water and basic food stuffs e.g. canned goods, etc., is there anything else that would be prudent to do/stock?

I suppose one could argue a firearm, which I'm not crazy about.

Thoughts?

Thanks for your time.

[craigr]

The best book I've read on actual preparedness for urban dwellers was from someone in Argentina that went through the 2001 peso collapse. That event had a tremendously bad impact on the economy. Not just in terms of destroying the currency, but massive unemployment, bank runs, high crime, power problems, etc.

Surviving the Economic Collapse

I wrote a review of this book here:

https://web.archive.org/web/20160324133 ... -collapse/

A lot of books seem to have tons of armchair advice that is very impractical. With this book it is obvious the author lived through and tried many things to see what did and didn't work. English is not his first language, but the text was very readable and many parts were hilarious with his descriptions of what actually happens in that kind of situation vs. some of the fantasy stuff that is out there.

[TripleB]

You can have all the emergency preparedness stuff in the world but without a firearm, and:

(1) the will
(2) the training
(3) the physical means

to use it against an attacker, then someone will come along and take your stuff. If someone is ideologically opposed to firearms, then that their right. However, you might as well not bother prepping food for more than a week, because after a week, if you need that food, then other people, who didn't prepare, will be kicking in your door to take yours.

If you're serious about emergency preparedness, you need a gun, training, and the determination to use it. It's a binary situation in my mind.

[craigr]

If you're serious about emergency preparedness, you need a gun, training, and the determination to use it. It's a binary situation in my mind.

I would agree as well. In a sustained emergency situation people can become very nasty animals. In the book I have listed above the author recommends buying a handgun first and I agree with him (goes against much advice people give on this subject). A handgun can not only be used in the house, but also is portable and easily hidden in case a situation comes up where you have to leave or need to travel outside your home for other reasons and need to be discreet.

My second choice for a firearm would be a rifle (an AR-15 for example) because it gives you stand-off distance that a pistol or shotgun won't have. They also give you enough rounds without needing a reload which is a major place where malfunctions happen.

Shotguns I put at the bottom of the list for home defense. They have sharp recoil, hold limited rounds, and are difficult to reload quickly under stress.  I'd rather have 30 rounds of .223 in a rifle with ability to control everything out to 200+ yards than 8 rounds of double 00 buckshot that is effective to around 50 yards or so.

[MediumTex]

My second choice for a firearm would be a rifle (an AR-15 for example) because it gives you stand-off distance that a pistol or shotgun won't have. They also give you enough rounds without needing a reload which is a major place where malfunctions happen.

Just a note on the AR-15-type rifles: these are really marvelous weapons.  They are lightweight, well-balanced, easy to operate, very accurate, and have almost no recoil.  Shooting one of these weapons is a lot of fun.

[Coffee]

.223 is a varmint round.  ~

Personally, I think a shotgun is fine for the house- especially if you need to clear or cover a hallway.  For $400 you can get a decent shotgun plus ammo and some training.

A decent M-4 will set you back $1,000+ -- and you're still going to want a scope, a sling, ammo and training. 

A good compromise (IMO) is to get an AK.

I do agree with Craig though-- if you're going to buy only one gun: Buy a handgun.  (Go for the Glock!).  And recognize that those of us who are "gun nuts" can debate this stuff endlessly for years and years. 

The most important thing is to GET A GUN that works and fires a round that is a caliber that is a manstopper.  (9mm or greater).

[Coffee]

My second choice for a firearm would be a rifle (an AR-15 for example) because it gives you stand-off distance that a pistol or shotgun won't have. They also give you enough rounds without needing a reload which is a major place where malfunctions happen.

Just a note on the AR-15-type rifles: these are really marvelous weapons.  They are lightweight, well-balanced, easy to operate, very accurate, and have almost no recoil.  Shooting one of these weapons is a lot of fun.

I think the "no recoil" thing is a myth. 

I took an 8 hour rifle course with the AR at Frontsight, and by the end of the day-- my shoulder HURT. 

[Coffee]

I ran across an ad for a "Food Shortage Survival Package" which I suspect is just someone trying to make some money, but it did start me wondering.  Beyond the obvious e.g. "money" (paper money, gold/silver), water and basic food stuffs e.g. canned goods, etc., is there anything else that would be prudent to do/stock?

I suppose one could argue a firearm, which I'm not crazy about.

Thoughts?

Thanks for your time.

You can't go wrong with:

- Three different ways to purify water.
- A variety of different fire-starters.
- At least a couple of different ways to cook food.  (Camping stove, BBQ, Dutch Oven, etc...)

[Coffee]

100 Items That Disappear First in a Disaster

1. Generators
(Good ones cost dearly. Gas storage, risky. Noisy...target of thieves; maintenance, etc.)

2. Water Filters/Purifiers

3. Portable Toilets (Increasing in price every two months.)

4. Seasoned Firewood
(About $250 per cord; wood takes 6 - 12 mos. to become dried, for home uses.)

5. Lamp Oil, Wicks, Lamps
(First choice: Buy CLEAR oil. If scarce, stockpile ANY!)

6. Coleman Fuel
(URGENT $2.69-$3.99/gal. Impossible to stockpile too much.)

7. Guns, Ammunition, Pepper Spray, Knives, Clubs, Bats and Slingshots

8. Hand-Can openers and hand egg beaters, whisks (Life savers!)

9. Honey/Syrups/white, brown sugars

10. Rice - Beans - Wheat
(White rice is now $12.95 - 50# bag. Sam's Club, stock depleted often.)

11. Vegetable oil (for cooking)
(Without it food burns/must be boiled, etc.)

12. Charcoal and Lighter fluid (Will become scarce suddenly.)

13. Water containers
(Urgent Item to obtain. Any size. Small: HARD CLEAR PLASTIC ONLY)

14. Mini Heater head (Propane) (Without this item, propane won't heat a room.)

15. Grain Grinder (Non-electric)

16. Propane Cylinders

17. Michael Hyatt's Y2K Survival Guide
(BEST single y2k handbook for sound advice/tips.)

18. Mantles: Aladdin, Coleman, etc.
(Without this item, longer-term lighting is difficult.)

19. Baby Supplies: Diapers/formula/ointments/aspirin, etc

20. Washboards, Mop Bucket w/wringer (for Laundry)

21. Cook stoves (Propane, Coleman and Kerosene)

22. Vitamins (Critical, due to Y2K-forced daily canned food diets.)

23. Propane Cylinder Handle-Holder
(Urgent: Small canister use is dangerous without this item.)

24. Feminine Hygiene/Haircare/Skin products

25. Thermal underwear (Tops and bottoms)

26. Bow saws, axes and hatchets and Wedges (also, honing oil)

27. Aluminum foil (Reg. and Heavy Duty)
(Great Cooking and Barter item)

28. Gasoline containers (Plastic or Metal)

29. Garbage bags (Impossible to have too many.)

30. Toilet Paper, Kleenex, paper towels

31. Milk - Powdered and Condensed (Shake liquid every 3 to 4 months.)

32. Garden seeds (Non-hybrid) (A MUST)

33. Clothespins/line/hangers (A MUST)

34. Coleman's Pump Repair Kit: 1(800) 835-3278

35. Tuna Fish (in oil)

36. Fire extinguishers (or.. large box of Baking soda in every room...)

37. First aid kits

38. Batteries (all sizes...buy furthest-out for Expiration Dates)

39. Garlic, spices and vinegar, baking supplies

40. BIG DOGS (and plenty of dog food)

41. Flour, yeast and salt

42. Matches ("Strike Anywhere" preferred. Boxed, wooden matches will go first.)

43. Writing paper/pads/pencils/solar calculators

44. Insulated ice chests (good for keeping items from freezing in Wintertime)

45. Work boots, belts, Levis and durable shirts

46. Flashlights/Light Sticks and torches, "No.76 Dietz" Lanterns

47. Journals, Diaries and Scrapbooks
(Jot down ideas, feelings, experiences: Historic times!)

48. Garbage cans Plastic
(great for storage, water, transporting - if with wheels)

49. Men's Hygiene: Shampoo, Toothbrush/paste, Mouthwash/floss, nail clippers, etc

50. Cast iron cookware (sturdy, efficient)

51. Fishing supplies/tools

52. Mosquito coils/repellent sprays/creams

53. Duct tape

54. Tarps/stakes/twine/nails/rope/spikes

55. Candles

56. Laundry detergent (Liquid)

57. Backpacks and Duffle bags

58. Garden tools and supplies

59. Scissors, fabrics and sewing supplies

60. Canned Fruits, Veggies, Soups, stews, etc.

61. Bleach (plain, NOT scented: 4 to 6% sodium hypochlorite)

62. Canning supplies (Jars/lids/wax)

63. Knives and Sharpening tools: files, stones, steel

64. Bicycles...Tires/tubes/pumps/chains, etc.

65. Sleeping bags and blankets/pillows/mats

66. Carbon Monoxide Alarm (battery powered)

67. Board Games Cards, Dice

68. D-Con Rat poison, MOUSE PRUFE II, Roach Killer

69. Mousetraps, Ant traps and cockroach magnets

70. Paper plates/cups/utensils (stock up, folks...)

71. Baby Wipes, oils, waterless and Anti-bacterial soap
(saves a lot of water)

72. Rain gear, rubberized boots, etc.

73. Shaving supplies
(razors and creams, talc, after shave)

74. Hand pumps and siphons
(for water and for fuels)

75. Soy sauce, vinegar, bouillons/gravy/soup base

76. Reading glasses

77. Chocolate/Cocoa/Tang/Punch (water enhancers)

78. "Survival-in-a-Can"

79. Woolen clothing, scarves/ear-muffs/mittens

80. Boy Scout Handbook – 12th Edition
(also, Leader's Catalog)

81. Roll-on Window Insulation Kit (MANCO)

82. Graham crackers, saltines, pretzels, Trail mix/Jerky

83. Popcorn, Peanut Butter, Nuts

84. Socks, Underwear, T-shirts, etc. (extras)

85. Lumber (all types)

86. Wagons and carts (for transport to and from open Flea markets)

87. Cots and Inflatable Mattresses (for extra guests)

88. Gloves: Work/warming/gardening, etc.

89. Lantern Hangers

90. Screen Patches, glue, nails, screws, nuts and bolts

91. Teas

92. Coffee

93. Cigarettes

94. Wine/Liquors (for bribes, medicinal, etc.)

95. Paraffin wax

96. Glue, nails, nuts, bolts, screws, etc.

97. Chewing gum/candies

98. Atomizers (for cooling/bathing)

99. Hats and cotton neckerchiefs

100. Goats/chickens

[MediumTex]

My second choice for a firearm would be a rifle (an AR-15 for example) because it gives you stand-off distance that a pistol or shotgun won't have. They also give you enough rounds without needing a reload which is a major place where malfunctions happen.

Just a note on the AR-15-type rifles: these are really marvelous weapons.  They are lightweight, well-balanced, easy to operate, very accurate, and have almost no recoil.  Shooting one of these weapons is a lot of fun.

I think the "no recoil" thing is a myth. 

I took an 8 hour rifle course with the AR at Frontsight, and by the end of the day-- my shoulder HURT. 

The AR-15-type rifles have the recoil spring in the stock that absorbs a lot of the recoil.  Shoot a Mini-14 for a while and then shoot an AR-15 and the difference is very obvious.

Shooting any rifle for 8 hours is probably going to leave you a little sore.

***

As far as choosing the ideal weapon, it is shocking how many words can be written on this topic and how many perspectives there are.  Here is what I would add to the conversation: select the weapon you are personally comfortable with and get to know the weapon well.  Practice with it, learn how it works, learn the different types of ammunition, etc.  In my opinion, a compact .357 magnum can make an outstanding all-around personal protection weapon.  Having spent time around revolvers and automatics, one gains an appreciation of how much more difficult it is to really become an expert with an automatic compared to a revolver.  That is, of course, strictly my opinion and lots of people will say that automatics are the only way to go. 

What I have noticed over many years is that people who buy guns tend not to spend as much time practicing their shooting and learning their weapon as they thought they were going to do when they bought it.  I have also noticed that lots of people are not as serious about gun safety as I would like them to be.

In the right hands, almost any weapon can be very effective.  As an example, a simple slingshot in the right hands can do an incredible amount of damage (don't ask me how I know this ).

[TripleB]

But you guys, I read on the internets that .223 will just make the bad guy mad and ARs jam all the time  :o

The best advice I ever heard was:

"ARs dont jam nearly as often as the internet would leave you to believe, and AKs are not nearly as inaccurate as the internet claims."

Either is probably fine. If you have $1000, buy an AK, a bunch of mags, and 2k rounds of ammo.

If you have $2k buy an AR, a bunch of mags, 2k rounds of ammo and an aimpoint.

Oh and if your shoulder hurts after shooting an AR or an AK all day, then you're doing it wrong. More than likely you are shooting it with too long of a stock, and not "tucking" it in enough. It may seem counter intuitive, but if you tuck the buttstock into your shoulder, it reduces recoil because you have a more stable platform.

Here's an analogy: imagine I punch you in the face. If I throw the punch with my fist 6 inches away from your face, it will hurt a lot more than if I throw the punch with my first initially starting with direct contact on your face. The energy goes from being a hit into more of a push, if my fist is already touching your face.

Same thing with the stock. Pull it in tight, and it won't hurt at the end of the day.

[Tortoise]

Handguns are great if you need portability or discretion, but my first line of home defense is a long gun.

Aiming a handgun is inherently more difficult than aiming a long gun. With the handgun, you pretty much have only a single anchor point: the grip. With the long gun, you have three different anchor points: the grip with one hand, the fore-end with the other hand, and the stock pressed into your shoulder.

The average person has a hard enough time aiming a handgun accurately at a shooting range. Stress and fear for one's life doesn't do anything to improve aiming accuracy or speed. So my go-to firearm for home defense is a long gun--a 12-gauge pump-action shotgun--since it can be aimed quickly and stably.

A pump-action shotgun has the added bonus of a potentially high deterrence factor. If someone trespassing in your home is not 100% committed to attacking you, the mere sound of a pump-action shotgun being cycled--distinctive and universally recognized--might just change his mind and motivate him to run the other way.

As for limited distance being a drawback for shotguns, keep in mind that shotgun slugs can travel up to a mile. Those things can punch a hole in the body of a car and even penetrate into the engine. Perhaps not as effective in a shoot-out as a rifle, but certainly not to be scoffed at, either.

[Wonk]

I ran across an ad for a "Food Shortage Survival Package" which I suspect is just someone trying to make some money, but it did start me wondering.  Beyond the obvious e.g. "money" (paper money, gold/silver), water and basic food stuffs e.g. canned goods, etc., is there anything else that would be prudent to do/stock?

I suppose one could argue a firearm, which I'm not crazy about.

Thoughts?

Thanks for your time.

I've been interested in this topic for some time and many books have been written on the topic.  I second Craig's recommendation on Ferfal's book.  Here are some other thoughts:

1. Firearms: I agree with the others.  Keep in mind that at all times in every society there is a thin veneer of civility that can disappear quickly when resources become scarce--even for a short period of time.  The means to defend yourself or your loved ones just once is worth an entire life of preparation.  Think of it as an alternative form of life insurance.  Keep in mind that weapons training is a perishable skill and must be refreshed periodically.

Regarding choice of firearms, this gets debated ad nauseum.  A weapon is a tool and not every tool is right for every job.  I agree the first (and perhaps only) firearm to obtain is a handgun with hollow-point or expanding jacket rounds--9mm being my choice for a variety of reasons.  Most self-defense situations are conducted inside of 8 ft and maneuverability in close quarters and around doors/walls can be an issue with long guns.  Shooting indoors has the very real problem of over penetration--which is why some prefer short barreled shotguns over handguns with full metal jacket rounds.  Rifles are nice to have but perhaps not the highest on your priority list.  Defending your domain out to 200 yards is not likely in urban/suburban scenarios, although the ability to hunt game effectively could be a valuable skill in a dire situation.

Basically, use the 80-20 rule. A good handgun will likely provide 80 percent of your defense needs.

2. Excess: disaster preparation can be a slippery slope.  One minute you are buying extra tuna and the next minute you're wondering if you need a fully stocked bunker in Montana with an M60 and night vision.  There's no clear line on what you need or don't need.  Start with the basics, obtain knowledge first and remember the rule of threes: 3 minutes without oxygen, 3 days without water and 3 weeks without food.  Beyond that heirarchy of priorities, everything else is a luxury.  What happens if that fancy $300 water filter breaks?  Can you source water locally and know how to purify it without expensive equipment?  If not, you're in trouble.  What happens if you don't have any more MRE's that you stockpiled?  Do you know how to hunt and fish?  Do you know how to start a fire in wet conditions?  Do you know how to cultivate a garden from seed to harvest?  Knowledge of basics is your most valuable asset.

3. Stack it deep: use and rotate your inventory.  You're not going to have 20 years of food on hand or 1 million rounds of ammo.  Get 3x-5x of everything from canned goods you'll actually eat to ammo to batteries--all the things you actually use right now.  Everything else you can source later on an as-needed basis.

4. Pack a go bag.  In certain natural or man-made(CBRN) disasters, you may need to move quickly rather than shelter in place.  72 hrs is the norm for supplies in a go bag.  Entire articles have been written on the subject, but do your best.  Two recommendations for inclusion would be a camelback bladder (which you can use for outdoor sports anyway) and freeze dried meals or emergency food bars.  Freeze dried meals are light and portable.  Emergency food bars require no prep--just calories.  Everything else is up to you.

[Benko]

Thanks all.

I live in a small city (well Pittsburgh) on the 9th floor of an apt building, which complicates things.  Although it does mean that anyone not living in the building would have to climb 9 sets of stairs to get to me.  Makeup of the building i.e. many very older people means while not impossible, not super likely to be attacked by someone in building.

I'm a doc and am not crazy about shooting others if I don't have to (yes I am aware at least theoretically of what can happen).  I assume people don't think much of less lethal things.  I don't even know what the options are but I guess tasers, pepper spray and god knows what else.

[AdamA]

I'm a doc and am not crazy about shooting others if I don't have to.

I don't think the others are excited about the idea of potentially shooting anyone.  I think it's just they realize that what Wonk said about a "thin veneer of civility" is probably true.

What kind of physician are you, by the way (if you don't mind my asking)?

[Benko]

I obviously didn't mean that others were intersted in shooting people.

I'm a radiolgist i.e. I spend my day behind a computer screen playing "Where's Waldo" with CTs, MRIs, x-rays, etc.  I also do wellness consulting i.e. diet, lifestyle, supplements, etc and was pretty surprised to find a discussion of low carb and different kinds of carbs on this board.  I'll find that thread and post my 3c.

[moda0306]

Awesome.  Good to have someone with your background here.

[AdamA]

I obviously didn't mean that others were intersted in shooting people.

I didn't mean to imply that you were...just that I think some of the more pro gun guys on the board seem to favor weapon ownership, not b/c they're gun nuts, but b/c they realize how fragile things can get in an emergency, when resources get thin.  

I have the same issue with guns as you (hate the idea of having to shoot anyone).  

Also, it only takes one gun safety screw up to ruin your life.  I had a friend when I was kid who snuck his father's gun out, and it ultimately resulted in an accidental death...that would be tough to stomach.

I realize completely that the gun should have been under lock and key and should not have been accessible to a teenager...but it's just an example of what can happen if a gun owner lets his guard down just once durng his tenure as a gun owner.

To be clear, I'm not anti-gun ownership or anything like that.  I just wonder which scenario is more likely for the average person (ie, the need to use a gun, vs. a gun-related accident).  

[Coffee]

Thanks all.

I live in a small city (well Pittsburgh) on the 9th floor of an apt building, which complicates things.  Although it does mean that anyone not living in the building would have to climb 9 sets of stairs to get to me.  Makeup of the building i.e. many very older people means while not impossible, not super likely to be attacked by someone in building.

I'm a doc and am not crazy about shooting others if I don't have to (yes I am aware at least theoretically of what can happen).  I assume people don't think much of less lethal things.  I don't even know what the options are but I guess tasers, pepper spray and god knows what else.

Less than lethal has it's place, against an unarmed attacker. 

But you have to understand that in a riot-no-food-at-the-store-no-police-response situation ... your attackers are most likely going to be armed.  And you'll be stuck defending your family against two or three dedicated attackers with guns... up against your taser or pepper spray.  Not a situation you want to find yourself in. 

[Coffee]

I think the most overlooked and under-talked-about prep is having a strong, geographically diverse network of people you can depend on.  

You could lose all of your preps overnight.  But if you have a strong and deep network of people to rely on, you can be safe, well-equipped and well situated very quickly.

For example, if the Fit Hits The Shan and I'm in an airplane that goes down over Texas... I'm heading over to Medium's house. I figure he's got a handful of gold coins from the vault he can throw my way, without even missing them.

[moda0306]

Exactly, Coffee.  I tend to think I should be doing all these survivalist things... then I remember that my wife's survivalist uncle has a massive house on 40 acres of land and is armed to the tooth just 30 miles north of me.

So I'll take the Porsche instead of the Hummer... thanks!

[MediumTex]

For example, if the Fit Hits The Shan and I'm in an airplane that goes down over Texas... I'm heading over to Medium's house. I figure he's got a handful of gold coins from the vault he can throw my way, without even missing them.

It is an unfortunate irony that although I would be happy to help in that situation, it would probably be hard to find me by simply asking people "do you know where MediumTex's house is?"

I could send you my address in a PM or email if you needed it, but I suspect that after surviving a plane crash your internet access might be spotty for a while.

[Wonk]

Forgot to add one more thing.  If you haven't already, watch both seasons of the reality show "The Colony."  In a nutshell, they drop a bunch of everyday people into a disaster area and watch them adapt.  It's great doom-porn and full of ideas and lessons.

One thing I noticed in both groups is the striking lack of security on the priority list.  Each group is filled with incredibly intelligent MacGyver-esque types that problem solve quite well.  The downside is they are obviously so accustomed to a civil society and the rule of law that they didn't take security seriously until they were ransacked repeatedly.  Simple security protocol such as setting up a perimeter and rotating watchmen was non-existent.

Of course, on the show, no one gets hurt, raped or killed.  In real life, I doubt they would be so fortunate in such a scenario.  I think one weakness Americans have is a near impenetrable sense of security.  I don't think any responsible person wants to use lethal force, but vigilance is, IMHO, essential.

In an apartment building you have unique needs and considerations.  As Coffee mentioned, less than lethal is fantastic for the right scenarios--just not all scenarios.

[stone]

People sometimes do all pull together in a disaster. To some extent supposidly that happened in the UK during WWII (I know the UK was bad in many ways refusing to bomb the railway to Auschwitz etc etc). In Japan in the recent Tsunami they also seemed to all help each other out. Perhaps the best form of disaster preparedness is to foster the kind of community such that if the SHTF, all your neighbours will rally around and stick up for each other. Such a network of everyone sticking up for each other could extend across the whole globe.

[AdamA]

I tend to think I should be doing all these survivalist things...

I read the book that Craig mentions a lot (the one by the Argentinian guy) a while back.  Although it made me feel quite unprepared for a disaster in a lot of ways, some the advice he gives is very simple and easy to follow, and would probably get most people a long way.

Although he recommends dedicating a lot of time to learning self defense (jiujitsu and boxing, I think are his recs, along with a tactical shooting class), he also emphasizes the importance of avoiding fights altogether and most importantly taking care of yourself.  You should be healthy enough to run a mile or two if you need to, and should be able to lift relatively heavy objects...nothing complicated there.

Also, rather than setting up a fortress in the middle of the country, he thinks that the best idea is to live in a moderately sized city where you have a lot of friends/connections.  He aslo recommends avoiding the biggest cities, where riots may occur.


Have some water saved, some cash handy, maybe some gold/silver, and some canned food.

There's a lot more, but I think those are some basic things that will get you a long way, and keep you from feeling overwhelmed with a sense of unpreparedness.