Figuring Out Religion

[dualstow]

If God is not there, none of those things makes any sense. Anything that goes, "if not God, then you should" or "if not God, then X, Y, or Z is good" is pretty much nonsensical.

Did I mention that zen is also about not trying to make sense?

No, seriously, that's one of the teachings.
Introduction to Zen Buddhism, by D.T. Suzuki

[yankees60]

My 42-year-old daughter is the last remaining believer of my three kids and as I'm watching what she's going through in a horrific situation I can only think to myself how much better she would be able to function if she would abandon her illusions of supernatural intervention. She prays to Jesus only to have her hopes crushed to pieces and then she has to ask herself what SHE might be doing wrong and why isn't Jesus answering her prayers. Then she has to exert what little energy she has to strengthen her faith instead of spending that same energy on doing what she logically can to improve her own situation all by herself.

At some point you just have to really stop and think that if a bear is chasing you in the woods you really have to save yourself or else the bear is going to eat you.

It's not being mad at God. It's just realizing that the bear is going to eat you. Whether God is watching and cares about that or not is a completely irrelevant consideration.

I once had a pastor telling me that if a farmer was praying for a good crop that that farmer should also be praying with a hoe in his hand -- meaning doing his part in making the prayer come to fruition.

Vinny

[yankees60]

I took that to be more of a "golden rule" comment, i e you should behave properly regardless of whether there is a God or not. That way you win no matter what, and so do the people around you

That is what Jesus stated as the second greatest commandment:

Matthew 22:34-40 34Hearing that Jesus had silenced the Sadducees, the Pharisees got together. 35One of them, an expert in the law, tested him with this question: 36"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" 37Jesus replied: "'Love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' 38This is the first and greatest commandment. 39And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' 40All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."

Vinny

[dualstow]

I once had a pastor telling me that if a farmer was praying for a good crop that that farmer should also be praying with a hoe in his hand -- meaning doing his part in making the prayer come to fruition.

Trust in Allah, but tie your camel
- Berber proverb

[jacksonm2]

Jacksonm2, I am so sorry that your daughter, and you, are suffering on this side of the Last Day.

Thanks. I'll let her know that it's the Last Day and Jesus is coming soon. Sure that will help.

[Mountaineer]

Jacksonm2, I am so sorry that your daughter, and you, are suffering on this side of the Last Day.

Thanks. I'll let her know that it's the Last Day and Jesus is coming soon. Sure that will help.

jacksonm2: I'm sorry you interpreted my condolences so glibly. I was serious, I am sorry you are suffering. You, and your daughter, are a fellow human beings deserving of compassion regardless of your beliefs.

[Mountaineer]

Into the Darkness. Pointedstick must have had his prophesy glasses on when he recently spoke of light and darkness.

https://www.lhm.org/dailydevotions/defa ... e=20200123

An excerpt from today's devotion:

"But the darkness we live in is way more dangerous than the darkness from a power outage. Most of you are converts to Christianity; you know the darkness I'm talking about. I mean the spiritual darkness of fear, hatred, and hopelessness. I mean the darkness of always trying to get ahead, even if it means putting other people down—because you know you can't trust anyone, not even yourself. I mean the words that are whispered in darkness—the lies, the gossip, the backstabbing. And the actions that are born out of darkness—the cheating, the violence, the hurting of other people to get what we want, because we want it, and we want it now.

Into this darkness, Jesus came as the Light of the world. Evil can't live in His presence. When Jesus arrives, all the evils that used to run freely scuttle away as fast as they can, looking for dark corners to hide. Where Jesus is, there is life and joy and protection and blessedness."

[Mountaineer]

YOU Forgive Sins

A short uplifting video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j0_q2Fc ... COPY_01%29

[Xan]

YOU Forgive Sins

A short uplifting video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j0_q2Fc ... COPY_01%29

Part of our call process was to look for people who could write really well backwards.

[Mountaineer]

YOU Forgive Sins

A short uplifting video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j0_q2Fc ... COPY_01%29

Part of our call process was to look for people who could write really well backwards.

Xan, I do like Pr. Wolfmueller's insights and presentations very much. You are blessed to have him. Is he as good in person as his YouTube material?

[Xan]

YOU Forgive Sins

A short uplifting video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j0_q2Fc ... COPY_01%29

Part of our call process was to look for people who could write really well backwards.

Xan, I do like Pr. Wolfmueller's insights and presentations very much. You are blessed to have him. Is he as good in person as his YouTube material?

He is amazingly engaging. He can preach a really long sermon and it doesn't feel long. In fact the past couple of weeks, and for at least the next several, he's doing two different sermons each Sunday: at our early service he's preaching on the Epistle text, and at our late service on the Gospel text. He's just overflowing with wonderful things to say! So whichever service I attend, I still need to go to the website to hear the other one.

But yes, he's just the same guy in person, whether it's one-on-one, adult Bible study, or in the Divine Service, as he is on YouTube. Which is a very good thing. If and when we get a Texas meetup going, you should come to a service.

[Mountaineer]

Thanks for the info. I would gladly come to your church. It’s been quite a while since I was in “Don’t Mess With Texas” country, far too long.

[Mountaineer]

"Repent of expecting the kingdom of heaven to come in the way that you think it should come. Repent of thinking that the kingdom of heaven should come in ways that make sense to human reason. The kingdom of heaven has come near to you. In whatever you’re suffering, whatever pain, whatever oppression or difficulty, with whatever you’re struggling against, Jesus has come to heal it. He has come to heal it all. But it appears in weakness in this creation, as long as this creation lasts. As long as people are born, get sick, suffer, and die, Jesus continues to bring His kingdom under those signs, creating it wherever He speaks. In your weakness, cling to Jesus. In your sickness, cling to Jesus. In your suffering, cling to Jesus. Because He will bring you to the glorious appearance of His kingdom and the transformation of this creation. As long as you’re alive in this creation, sin and death will continue to cause suffering. But He will keep you until the day when sin and death will see their eternal defeat."

https://bishopandchristian.com/2020/01/ ... of-heaven/

[Ad Orientem]

God As the Weeping Light to the World

https://orthochristian.com/127589.html

[yankees60]

Doodle, how do you know God didn't direct them? Just because something has no proof doesn't mean you shouldn't believe in it.

They realize they've been mentally abused into thinking their creator made them a horible creature worthy only of a lake of fire and gave them natural instincts they are supposed to go against (self-interest). They are also responsible for the actions of people who came before them. Listen, it has nothing to do with some men trying to control the minds of other men and give them position and wealth. It can't be that because God wouldn't allow that. Well.....he will in every other religion and in government and other organizations and in abusive homes and etc. etc. but not in this one.

Kshartle, I'd really like to hear more about your experience with religion.  I guess I'm asking for your agnostic/atheistic "testimony."  I know that sounds strange, but here's why I'm asking:  You obviously have very strong opinions regarding morality, violence, authority, etc.  I'd like to know a little more about your path to your present views.  I wonder this about a lot of people, but you've been quite verbose in your defense of your views, so I think it makes sense for you to share a bit of your personal journey to these beliefs. 

I mean this with all due respect.  And of course, it's a shameless plea to extend the length of this thread from a mere 20+ pages to something closer to infinity. 

Does 362 (and counting) pages constitute being "closer to infinity"??!!!

Vinny

[Maddy]

For those interested in a scholarly, ultra-logical approach to many of the troubling issues raised early in this thread, I'd highly recommend any one of the numerous YouTube podcasts by Bart Ehrman. I've listened to at least 10 or 15 of his lectures (many of them multiple times), and I found him to be a refreshing change from the tired fundamentalist Christian apologetic that, frankly, never made a lick of sense to me. His credentials are impeccable, and his delivery is incredibly engaging. What's significantly different about Professor Ehrman, in my view, is his very respectful attitude toward the Christian faith--which is something in which he was deeply enmeshed for the majority of his life. Although he now identifies as an "agnostic," he neither carries a chip on his shoulder nor shows any desire to demean or tear down anyone else's beliefs. Interestingly, it was not his own research as a New Testament scholar that ultimately led him to reject fundamentalist Christianity; it was the problem of suffering.

What is Christianity? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=03Aiqz0xA1I
Misquoting Jesus in the Bible: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pfheSAcCsrE
The Historical Jesus: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2eqMFz7 ... GyzobLouI8
Is the New Testament Reliable? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b-cZncVmtIU
Jesus, the Law and a New Covenant: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IOPd80FN2ew
How the Bible Explains Suffering: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y7cmUCjnCgE
Bart Ehrman's personal beliefs interview: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BeFdhyuVyzI
How Jesus Became God audiobook: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NJNNg-CT7Gw

I'd be interested in knowing whether anyone else on the forum is familiar with Professor Ehrman and has benefitted from his lectures as much as I have.

[Mountaineer]

I'd be interested in knowing whether anyone else on the forum is familiar with Professor Ehrman and has benefitted from his lectures as much as I have.

1. Yes

2. Slightly. His lectures made me really study what I believe and why, and thus reinforced why I'm a Christian, so I'd say Eherman's lectures were good in that respect. As for being lectures about "truth", not so much benefit for me. 8 or 10 years ago I bought a DVD series from the Teaching Company by Bart Ehrman and Amy Jill Levine. Some dealt with "the missing gospels" and gnosticism; interesting but not Biblical or Jesus as God/man focused and highly influenced by man's insatiable desire to place primacy on his own reason vs. the gifts of Christ's revealed knowledge. Basically, it once again boils down to "Who is going to be God, God or self?" Personally, I would not want a god that I could completely understand by my own reason - that makes for far too small a god; would lead me to worship of the creature rather than the Creator.

[Mountaineer]

Hey all, I thought you might like to see a Lutheran perspective on Trump’s Prayer Breakfast comments. A key point is the Lutheran understanding of “Justification” and the difference between "Law and Gospel”. All religions other than Christianity (Mormonism, Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, Judaism, paganism, etc.) are Law based, and even many Christian traditions have an inordinate focus on Law even though they say they don’t; a key ‘tell' is how much focus there is on moralism (e.g. WWJD - what would Jesus do?, be a good little girl/boy, don’t drink or smoke or go to movies or dance) or what we have to do to please God rather than a primary focus on the saving work of Jesus, that is what He did for us, not what we do for Him.

http://cyclopedia.lcms.org/display.asp? ... TIFICATION

http://cyclopedia.lcms.org/display.asp? ... WANDGOSPEL

… Mountaineer



Posted on Monday, February 10, 2020 - 5:42 am:

"Is Trump Becoming a Lutheran?"
by Jack Cascione

On Thursday, February 6, 2020, unique circumstances surrounding the U. S. President’s impeachment led to an outburst of verbiage reminiscent of a Lutheran Reformation morality play.

At the National Prayer Breakfast, President Trump stated, “I don't like people who use their faith as justification for doing what they know is wrong.” If there ever was an opening for Luther’s diatribe against fanaticism, this was it.

Images of the Crusades, the Spanish Inquisition, the Salem Witch Trials, the 1857 Mormon Mountain Meadows Massacre of a civilian wagon train from Arkansas, countless Moslem wars of extermination, and many more come to mind.

In one statement President Trump acknowledged the existence of faith, conscience, and people acting against their conscience in the name of religion.

American generic Christianity and, sad to say, a majority of Lutherans are not aware that people are justified by God through or by faith alone in Christ and not because of faith. Faith in itself does not cause justification. Rather, faith receives God’s declaration righteousness which is earned by Christ alone. If we were justified because of our faith, we would be the cause of our own justification.

Romney’s and Pelosi’s appeals to their own faith as a higher calling than the rule of law and an excuse for removing President Trump from office was the autocratic hypocrisy that led to President Trump’s outburst.

President Trump later complained that some people, “use religion as a crutch.” What he meant was that some people use faith as an excuse to attack others instead of relying on faith that receives God’s grace. Romney and Pelosi turned freedom of religion into freedom to hate in the court of their own faith.

Generic American Christianity confuses Law with Gospel and claims that the Law is religion, when the Bible clearly states, “The law is not of faith” (Gal. 3:12).

This writer once wasted an hour attempting to explain to a U. S. Congressman that displaying the 10 Commandments was not a statement of religion but of Natural Law. Reformed Christians have convinced America that the Law is religion, when the fact is that believing in the 10 Commandments will not save anyone. We do not worship the Law. “The law is not of faith” (Gal. 3:12).

Acknowledgement that there is a God is not an act of faith. “In God we Trust,” is a confession of the Law not the Gospel, unless one believes in the deity of Christ. Even then, prayer is a work of sanctification, not justification. God justifies us, we do not justify Him or ourselves.

The basis for Lutheran Baptism and Confirmation is the confession of the Apostles’ Creed, not the 10 Commandments.

It was the dynamics of the moment that compelled President Trump’s moment of clarity and Lutheran perspective.

President Trump even rejected Harvard professor Arthur Brooks’ claim at the Prayer Breakfast, that we should love our enemies. In the context of impeachment Trump was absolutely correct and Brooks was wrong. Trump is the chief executive, whose primary duty is to execute the Law, not faith, love, or forgiveness. This is Luther’s proper distinction between church and state. Any head of State has the right to execute enemies of the State according to the Law, as Trump recently accomplished in Iraq. At the same time, a Christian head of State may also pray for the repentance of the State’s enemies even as he executes them.

Christ never told the Romans to take the two thieves off the cross. They received just what they deserved, and one of them correctly admitted it.

To cap off the day, President Trump later announced: “I’ve done things wrong in my life, I will admit. Not purposely, but I’ve done things wrong.” He remained adamant that regarding his official duties there was nothing wrong with the phone call.

President Trump then proclaimed, “But now we have that gorgeous word. I never thought that word would ever sound so good. It’s called total acquittal.”

Total acquittal is the hallmark of the Lutheran Reformation. It is also called Justification, declared righteous, or vindication.

Who can discern his errors? Acquit me of hidden faults. (Psa. 19:12 NASB)

Also keep back Thy servant from presumptuous sins; Let them not rule over me; Then I shall be blameless, And I shall be acquitted of great transgression. (Psa. 19:13 NASB)

There was a time when the High Priest Caiaphas spoke correctly about Jesus Christ by accident.
"...nor do you take into account that it is expedient for you that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation should not perish. Now this he did not say on his own initiative; but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus was going to die for the nation ..." (John 11:50-51 NASB)

We have now seen a time when President Donald John Trump spoke correctly about acquittal and prophecies to the world.

At the Last Judgment the greatest words a person can hear through all eternity from the mouth of God are: “You are acquitted through faith by the righteous work of Christ.”

The unseen Hand moves the pieces on the board of life to fulfill His Divine providence.

There is good reason for all Christians to pray for God’s blessings on their leaders.

[Cortopassi]

As with everything, there are many ways to interpret Trump

https://frenchpress.thedispatch.com/p/w ... my-enemies

[Mountaineer]

As with everything, there are many ways to interpret Trump

https://frenchpress.thedispatch.com/p/w ... my-enemies

Indeed. And many ways to interpret the doctrine of the two kingdoms/realms. And many ways to interpret the commands "Love God and love neighbor as yourself" - one way to interpret is to recognize they are just two more commandments (i.e. Law) that are impossible for anyone other than Jesus to fully do, that is two more laws that are impossible to achieve so as to drive one to repentance and thus be ready to hear the Gospel, the good news that Jesus has done it all for me ... and you. Then we respond in thanks in our various vocations by doing our best to love and serve our neighbors with their needs instead of only focusing on our (selfish?) needs; after we are justified by what Christ did for us, the Holy Spirit works within us to sanctify us, a state we (individually and collectively) will never completely achieve until the new heaven and new earth arrive on the last day. In other words, God does not need our help, but our neighbor does.

Edit. I just read this paper, a much more thorough discussion of my comments for those who might have interest:

https://www.1517.org/articles/preaching ... 73add2135a

[Xan]

For I tell you that unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, there is no way you will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven.

Pastor Wolfmueller notes that while all religion and almost all philosophy will rightly attack the worst in our humanity, Christianity is unique in attacking the best also. If the Pharisees aren't righteous enough to satisfy God then who can be??

Two versions:
Sermon
Sunday drive home video

Spoiler: the righteousness that exceeds the Pharisees must come from outside of us.

[Ad Orientem]

Perhaps apropos for the times,the liturgical prayer "Lord Save Thy People" set to composition by Pavel Chesnokov...

https://youtu.be/9mim0kgjsDo

[Xan]

Kyrie eleison.

[Mountaineer]

Xan, my wife and I watched Pr. Wolfmueller's Matins service from March 22. Your church is beautiful. Thanks be to God for him conducting the online service.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nrtyEymy7Zg

[Kriegsspiel]

Yeah, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I fear no evil, for thou art 6 feet away from me.