Countering medical cost myths

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Maddy
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Re: Countering medical cost myths

Post by Maddy » Fri Nov 08, 2019 7:03 am

31 percent of millinneals have major depression--and 15 percent are flat-out psychotic?

The article goes on to explain how this mental health crisis can be explained by the unusual hardships experienced by this generation:
Some younger millennials watched their parents lose their homes and jobs, potentially setting them up for lasting psychological problems and making them vulnerable to substance abuse and the opioid epidemic.
Good Lord.
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Re: Countering medical cost myths

Post by Mountaineer » Fri Nov 08, 2019 8:02 am

Maddy wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2019 7:03 am
31 percent of millinneals have major depression--and 15 percent are flat-out psychotic?

The article goes on to explain how this mental health crisis can be explained by the unusual hardships experienced by this generation:
Some younger millennials watched their parents lose their homes and jobs, potentially setting them up for lasting psychological problems and making them vulnerable to substance abuse and the opioid epidemic.
Good Lord.
It's almost winter. Snowflakes are proliferating.
DNA has its own language (code), and language requires intelligence. There is no known mechanism by which matter can give birth to information, let alone language. It is unreasonable to believe the world could have happened by chance.
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Re: Countering medical cost myths

Post by vnatale » Fri Nov 08, 2019 9:31 am

Maddy wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2019 7:03 am
31 percent of millinneals have major depression--and 15 percent are flat-out psychotic?

The article goes on to explain how this mental health crisis can be explained by the unusual hardships experienced by this generation:
Some younger millennials watched their parents lose their homes and jobs, potentially setting them up for lasting psychological problems and making them vulnerable to substance abuse and the opioid epidemic.
Good Lord.
How does this compare to the outcomes for those who grew up in the 1930s, during The Depression? My father was 17 to 27 years old during that decade? He was an immigrant in 1926 or 1927 (at the age of 13, coming into the country knowing no English) who established himself (and, our family) into the middle class. I guess, though, that the major thing that affected both him and my mother (five years younger than my father but NOT an immigrant those a daughter of immigrants) (and, through osmosis me) was GREAT frugality.

Vinny
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
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Re: Countering medical cost myths

Post by WiseOne » Fri Nov 08, 2019 11:58 am

Pugchief, I'm with you on the half shot of brandy!

Maddy: Alzheimer's rate is increasing much faster than would be predicted if the age-adjusted rate were stable. Right away that tells you that whatever is driving it has little to do with genetics. Instead, there's a body of literature (epidemiology and physiological mechanism studies) linking Alzheimer's to insulin resistance. Pretty amazing stuff if you go digging in the literature. For a shortcut, look up lectures by Amy Bergman on youtube. She makes a few nonscientific leaps of logic, but overall I think she is on point.

Sloppy statistics is also what preventive medication recommendations are made from. That, and the obvious conflicts of interest involved (i.e. the drug company that will make tons of money from the med funds the study and makes friends with the researchers.) Here's an example:

Lipitor is advertised to reduce heart attack risk by 36%. This is because in one of the Lipitor studies, the rate of heart attacks in the statin group was 0.35%, while the rate in the placebo group was 0.76%. That's an ABSOLUTE difference of 0.41%, which means you would need to treat ~250 people to prevent one heart attack (and the other 249 people would get no benefit). Meanwhile, what they don't tell you is that the number of strokes in the Lipitor group was greater than the number in the placebo group, and the mortality rate was equal in the 2 groups. Not only that, but they stopped the study before a particularly dangerous and fairly common long-term side effect of Lipitor (developing diabetes) could start to impact the outcomes. Not to mention the other adverse effects of Lipitor like dementia and muscle damage - which may not be reversed by stopping the drug.

There's a similar story with just about every preventive medication out there. And let's not even get started on screening tests, which are virtually all similarly nonproductive (except colonoscopy before age 75).
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Re: Countering medical cost myths

Post by vnatale » Fri Nov 08, 2019 12:04 pm

WiseOne wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2019 11:58 am
Pugchief, I'm with you on the half shot of brandy!

Maddy: Alzheimer's rate is increasing much faster than would be predicted if the age-adjusted rate were stable. Right away that tells you that whatever is driving it has little to do with genetics. Instead, there's a body of literature (epidemiology and physiological mechanism studies) linking Alzheimer's to insulin resistance. Pretty amazing stuff if you go digging in the literature. For a shortcut, look up lectures by Amy Bergman on youtube. She makes a few nonscientific leaps of logic, but overall I think she is on point.

Sloppy statistics is also what preventive medication recommendations are made from. That, and the obvious conflicts of interest involved (i.e. the drug company that will make tons of money from the med funds the study and makes friends with the researchers.) Here's an example:

Lipitor is advertised to reduce heart attack risk by 36%. This is because in one of the Lipitor studies, the rate of heart attacks in the statin group was 0.35%, while the rate in the placebo group was 0.76%. That's an ABSOLUTE difference of 0.41%, which means you would need to treat ~250 people to prevent one heart attack (and the other 249 people would get no benefit). Meanwhile, what they don't tell you is that the number of strokes in the Lipitor group was greater than the number in the placebo group, and the mortality rate was equal in the 2 groups. Not only that, but they stopped the study before a particularly dangerous and fairly common long-term side effect of Lipitor (developing diabetes) could start to impact the outcomes. Not to mention the other adverse effects of Lipitor like dementia and muscle damage - which may not be reversed by stopping the drug.

There's a similar story with just about every preventive medication out there. And let's not even get started on screening tests, which are virtually all similarly nonproductive (except colonoscopy before age 75).
I am interested if you are aware of this book. And, if so, what is your evaluation of it and its proscriptions. I read it in one day and was thoroughly swayed by it. I then read it again, taking copious notes from me, and finally distilled that further into specific food choices and other specific choices to implement in my life.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/080107522X/?c ... _lig_dp_it

The Aging Brain: Proven Steps to Prevent Dementia and Sharpen Your Mind

Vinny
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
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Re: Countering medical cost myths

Post by vnatale » Fri Nov 08, 2019 12:33 pm

MangoMan wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2019 12:06 pm
Vinny, please give us your executive summary.

What specific food choices and lifestyle changes are you making?
I am known far and wide as Mr. Detail. And, NOT GOOD, at Executive Summaries! But here is a quick attempt.

I first read this book in 2015: https://smile.amazon.com/dp/031612091X/ ... _lig_dp_it

Eat to Live: The Amazing Nutrient-Rich Program for Fast and Sustained Weight Loss, Revised Edition

That is what caused me to be a vegan at home.

Then in conjunction with reading the Aging Brain book this summer, around the same time, I also read this other book by Dr. Fuhrman: https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/006 ... bl_vppi_i6

The End of Dieting: How to Live for Life

The combination of that book and The Aging Brain caused me to eat a lot more vegetables than I had been.

The Aging Brain book motivated me to buy a bunch of supplements to take that I've yet to work into my daily routine. It reaffirmed my committed exercise program.

My friend who introduced me to the book read it initially for its dementia process but in the process of him implementing its proscriptions he lost 30 pounds over less than six months.

Vinny
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
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Re: Countering medical cost myths

Post by vnatale » Fri Nov 08, 2019 12:37 pm

MangoMan wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2019 12:06 pm
Vinny, please give us your executive summary.

What specific food choices and lifestyle changes are you making?
Capture.PNG
Capture.PNG (45.68 KiB) Viewed 4607 times
The above may be too tiny to read but this is what I put together from the book which (for me) were either something new or things I wanted to reaffirm I was already doing. Then, when I went through the 2nd Dr. Furhman book I created a much larger worksheet than this one. That worksheet's main focus was on which foods to consume.

Vinny
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
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Re: Countering medical cost myths

Post by jacksonm2 » Fri Nov 08, 2019 12:42 pm

WiseOne wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2019 11:58 am
Maddy: Alzheimer's rate is increasing much faster than would be predicted if the age-adjusted rate were stable. Right away that tells you that whatever is driving it has little to do with genetics. Instead, there's a body of literature (epidemiology and physiological mechanism studies) linking Alzheimer's to insulin resistance. Pretty amazing stuff if you go digging in the literature. For a shortcut, look up lectures by Amy Bergman on youtube. She makes a few nonscientific leaps of logic, but overall I think she is on point.
Just started visiting the dentist for cleanings after not going for a couple of years and the hygienist was amazed at what little plaque buildup I had and now have in between cleanings.

Do you suppose the keto diet I've been on with intermittent fasting (daily) and cutting out all sugar except for occasional fruit has something to do with it?

I've read that Alzheimer's is caused by a process similar to plaque buildup on your teeth so I'm hoping this is also a good anti-Alzheimer's diet.
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Re: Countering medical cost myths

Post by vnatale » Fri Nov 08, 2019 12:56 pm

jacksonm2 wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2019 12:42 pm
WiseOne wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2019 11:58 am
Maddy: Alzheimer's rate is increasing much faster than would be predicted if the age-adjusted rate were stable. Right away that tells you that whatever is driving it has little to do with genetics. Instead, there's a body of literature (epidemiology and physiological mechanism studies) linking Alzheimer's to insulin resistance. Pretty amazing stuff if you go digging in the literature. For a shortcut, look up lectures by Amy Bergman on youtube. She makes a few nonscientific leaps of logic, but overall I think she is on point.
Just started visiting the dentist for cleanings after not going for a couple of years and the hygienist was amazed at what little plaque buildup I had and now have in between cleanings.

Do you suppose the keto diet I've been on with intermittent fasting (daily) and cutting out all sugar except for occasional fruit has something to do with it?

I've read that Alzheimer's is caused by a process similar to plaque buildup on your teeth so I'm hoping this is also a good anti-Alzheimer's diet.
What has been your history?

I've been off sugar since 1985 (but tons of fruit) yet I go for three cleanings per year so as to make the whole experience much less painful. I'm known as the model patient for the way I take care of my teeth (flossing and brushing). I seem to be prone to plaque buildup thus my attention to self-care and going to get the teeth cleaned every four months. Which I pay every cent of the costs of doing so.

Vinny
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
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Re: Countering medical cost myths

Post by jacksonm2 » Fri Nov 08, 2019 2:46 pm

vnatale wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2019 12:56 pm
jacksonm2 wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2019 12:42 pm
WiseOne wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2019 11:58 am
Maddy: Alzheimer's rate is increasing much faster than would be predicted if the age-adjusted rate were stable. Right away that tells you that whatever is driving it has little to do with genetics. Instead, there's a body of literature (epidemiology and physiological mechanism studies) linking Alzheimer's to insulin resistance. Pretty amazing stuff if you go digging in the literature. For a shortcut, look up lectures by Amy Bergman on youtube. She makes a few nonscientific leaps of logic, but overall I think she is on point.
Just started visiting the dentist for cleanings after not going for a couple of years and the hygienist was amazed at what little plaque buildup I had and now have in between cleanings.

Do you suppose the keto diet I've been on with intermittent fasting (daily) and cutting out all sugar except for occasional fruit has something to do with it?

I've read that Alzheimer's is caused by a process similar to plaque buildup on your teeth so I'm hoping this is also a good anti-Alzheimer's diet.
What has been your history?

I've been off sugar since 1985 (but tons of fruit) yet I go for three cleanings per year so as to make the whole experience much less painful. I'm known as the model patient for the way I take care of my teeth (flossing and brushing). I seem to be prone to plaque buildup thus my attention to self-care and going to get the teeth cleaned every four months. Which I pay every cent of the costs of doing so.

Vinny
I have gum disease so I was getting cleanings 4 times per year. Decided to forego it for a while after I retired about 3 years ago to see what would happen if I just took good care of my teeth. Well, guess what? The "numbers" hadn't changed a bit which makes me question the whole idea of frequent cleanings now.

As for the sugar, I don't know how much of a factor that really was but I'm sure it didn't hurt cutting it out of my diet. I eat some fruit but stick to those low in fructose - mostly avocado smoothies with some berries thrown in. Some times I'll throw in one small piece of banana.
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Re: Countering medical cost myths

Post by vnatale » Fri Nov 08, 2019 3:10 pm

jacksonm2 wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2019 2:46 pm
vnatale wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2019 12:56 pm
jacksonm2 wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2019 12:42 pm


Just started visiting the dentist for cleanings after not going for a couple of years and the hygienist was amazed at what little plaque buildup I had and now have in between cleanings.

Do you suppose the keto diet I've been on with intermittent fasting (daily) and cutting out all sugar except for occasional fruit has something to do with it?

I've read that Alzheimer's is caused by a process similar to plaque buildup on your teeth so I'm hoping this is also a good anti-Alzheimer's diet.
What has been your history?

I've been off sugar since 1985 (but tons of fruit) yet I go for three cleanings per year so as to make the whole experience much less painful. I'm known as the model patient for the way I take care of my teeth (flossing and brushing). I seem to be prone to plaque buildup thus my attention to self-care and going to get the teeth cleaned every four months. Which I pay every cent of the costs of doing so.

Vinny
I have gum disease so I was getting cleanings 4 times per year. Decided to forego it for a while after I retired about 3 years ago to see what would happen if I just took good care of my teeth. Well, guess what? The "numbers" hadn't changed a bit which makes me question the whole idea of frequent cleanings now.

As for the sugar, I don't know how much of a factor that really was but I'm sure it didn't hurt cutting it out of my diet. I eat some fruit but stick to those low in fructose - mostly avocado smoothies with some berries thrown in. Some times I'll throw in one small piece of banana.
Way back thirty plus years ago the periodontist told me I needed the expensive operation because my gums had receded so much. Or, something like that. I'm forgetting precisely what it was given the so much passage of time.

But he said, let's first try a deep cleaning. Which was then paying $75 just to do one quarter of your mouth at a time. So, four appointments. I think he said after he'd finished, let's give it some time to see what happens. By the time I went back to see "what HAD happened" I was psychologically prepared for this expensive work on my gums. And, was I shocked (and pleased) when he said you are now doing fine. No need for it.

And, I've not heard a word from my dentist of their even being a re-occurrence of what led him to sending me to the periodontist in the first place.

My frequent cleanings evolved from...initially going just once a year...and that turned out too be way too painful because of all the scraping that had to be done. So, I proposed twice. I'm now forgetting the exact reasons how it has now evolved into three times a year. I consider a relative small price to pay to hold on to one's teeth for hopefully ones entire life.
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
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Re: Countering medical cost myths

Post by jacksonm2 » Fri Nov 08, 2019 3:21 pm

vnatale wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2019 3:10 pm
jacksonm2 wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2019 2:46 pm
vnatale wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2019 12:56 pm


What has been your history?

I've been off sugar since 1985 (but tons of fruit) yet I go for three cleanings per year so as to make the whole experience much less painful. I'm known as the model patient for the way I take care of my teeth (flossing and brushing). I seem to be prone to plaque buildup thus my attention to self-care and going to get the teeth cleaned every four months. Which I pay every cent of the costs of doing so.

Vinny
I have gum disease so I was getting cleanings 4 times per year. Decided to forego it for a while after I retired about 3 years ago to see what would happen if I just took good care of my teeth. Well, guess what? The "numbers" hadn't changed a bit which makes me question the whole idea of frequent cleanings now.

As for the sugar, I don't know how much of a factor that really was but I'm sure it didn't hurt cutting it out of my diet. I eat some fruit but stick to those low in fructose - mostly avocado smoothies with some berries thrown in. Some times I'll throw in one small piece of banana.
Way back thirty plus years ago the periodontist told me I needed the expensive operation because my gums had receded so much. Or, something like that. I'm forgetting precisely what it was given the so much passage of time.

But he said, let's first try a deep cleaning. Which was then paying $75 just to do one quarter of your mouth at a time. So, four appointments. I think he said after he'd finished, let's give it some time to see what happens. By the time I went back to see "what HAD happened" I was psychologically prepared for this expensive work on my gums. And, was I shocked (and pleased) when he said you are now doing fine. No need for it.

And, I've not heard a word from my dentist of their even being a re-occurrence of what led him to sending me to the periodontist in the first place.

My frequent cleanings evolved from...initially going just once a year...and that turned out too be way too painful because of all the scraping that had to be done. So, I proposed twice. I'm now forgetting the exact reasons how it has now evolved into three times a year. I consider a relative small price to pay to hold on to one's teeth for hopefully ones entire life.
I once went to a dentist who said I had periodontal disease and needed all kinds of treatment. Turns out he told nearly every patient that and fortunately he got busted for it before my treatment started.
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Re: Countering medical cost myths

Post by vnatale » Fri Nov 08, 2019 3:36 pm

MangoMan wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2019 3:30 pm
jacksonm2 wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2019 3:21 pm


I once went to a dentist who said I had periodontal disease and needed all kinds of treatment. Turns out he told nearly every patient that and fortunately he got busted for it before my treatment started.
Needing 'deep cleaning' is for sure the most over-diagnosed condition in dentistry, however, an unusually high number of adults do suffer from some form of gum disease.
I never once doubted it was the correct diagnosis for me since the process had started after my highly regarded (by me) dentist first detected the problem and referred me to the periodontist who had me convinced It did need the gum operation (my words. But I'm sure you can better tell me what he was going to do.). And, then the periodontist told me I no longer needed this $3,000 procedure (30+ years ago) because, instead, the $300 four deep cleanings took care of the problem. That was the first and only time I'd had that done.

Vinny
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
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Re: Countering medical cost myths

Post by Xan » Fri Nov 08, 2019 3:56 pm

Here's a horrifying tale of a dentist who sold his practice, and his successor discovered that he'd been doing all manner of nightmarish and unnecessary procedures on all his patients.

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/ar ... ry/586039/
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Re: Countering medical cost myths

Post by ochotona » Fri Nov 08, 2019 6:24 pm

MangoMan wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2019 11:49 am
Exactly, and likewise. These Millennials have no idea what having it rough is. Way too coddled.
No Americans who were born Stateside after 1945 and who have never been in combat have any idea about hardship. I heard it second-hand from my immigrant parents.
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Re: Countering medical cost myths

Post by jacksonm2 » Sat Nov 09, 2019 1:05 pm

ochotona wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2019 6:24 pm
MangoMan wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2019 11:49 am
Exactly, and likewise. These Millennials have no idea what having it rough is. Way too coddled.
No Americans who were born Stateside after 1945 and who have never been in combat have any idea about hardship. I heard it second-hand from my immigrant parents.
My 3 kids were born 1974-1977 and I can assure you they have seen plenty of hardship in their lives.

So much so that my 23-year old adopted granddaughter just told me she has no intention of ever having kids. Had to tell her I didn't blame her at all, notwithstanding the fact that if I had felt the same way at her age she wouldn't be here.
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Re: Countering medical cost myths

Post by WiseOne » Sat Nov 09, 2019 2:04 pm

vnatale wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2019 12:56 pm
I've been off sugar since 1985 (but tons of fruit) yet I go for three cleanings per year
You forgot to mention the grains/cereals.

You're not off sugar, you're just consuming it in a different form. In bucketfuls probably, if you're still vegan.

Nice story Jacsksonn! I doubt there has been much research into the association between plaque and dietary starch (not just sugar), but I would not be surprised if a link were found.

BTW be careful about what you read in books. Any hack can say whatever they want in a book. I not only prefer to go directly to the medical literature but I also read the studies (especially the methods section) to find out what they REALLY showed (instead of what they were advertised to show). The authors I do like to read use that same method to write their books & blogs.
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Re: Countering medical cost myths

Post by vnatale » Sat Nov 09, 2019 2:12 pm

WiseOne wrote:
Sat Nov 09, 2019 2:04 pm
vnatale wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2019 12:56 pm
I've been off sugar since 1985 (but tons of fruit) yet I go for three cleanings per year
You forgot to mention the grains/cereals.

You're not off sugar, you're just consuming it in a different form. In bucketfuls probably, if you're still vegan.

Nice story Jacsksonn! I doubt there has been much research into the association between plaque and dietary starch (not just sugar), but I would not be surprised if a link were found.

BTW be careful about what you read in books. Any hack can say whatever they want in a book. I not only prefer to go directly to the medical literature but I also read the studies (especially the methods section) to find out what they REALLY showed (instead of what they were advertised to show). The authors I do like to read use that same method to write their books & blogs.
1) I eat no cereals and the only grains are some rolled oats and bulgur. And, not each day. But I do eat a fair amount of fruit and definitely get my share of fructose.

2) I'm listening to this author speaking about this book right now: https://www.amazon.com/Gender-Our-Brain ... l_huc_item Gender and Our Brains: How New Neuroscience Explodes the Myths of the Male and Female Minds

She cited an example of an assertion of another author's book regarding male / female humans and her then going back to the footnote and determining that the study was actually based upon birds! And, she also said there is a lot of (her phrase) "neurotrash" out there!

Vinny
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Re: Countering medical cost myths

Post by ochotona » Sat Nov 09, 2019 5:06 pm

jacksonm2 wrote:
Sat Nov 09, 2019 1:05 pm
My 3 kids were born 1974-1977 and I can assure you they have seen plenty of hardship in their lives.

So much so that my 23-year old adopted granddaughter just told me she has no intention of ever having kids. Had to tell her I didn't blame her at all, notwithstanding the fact that if I had felt the same way at her age she wouldn't be here.
I guess I didn't say it correctly.

Outside of the Great Depression and being a combatant in a shooting war, Americans have not systematically on a widespread basis (millions of people at a time) experienced huge hardship. Our "average hardship" is another society's wealth.

"Huge hardship" is people from the other political party coming after you with guns in the night unless you catch the last boat / train out, the currency going to zero, stocks going to zero, can't get food or water or medication, the schools are closed and kids lose years of education. That's what I mean by hardship. My Mother went through this. She thinks Millennials are total snowflakes.
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Re: Countering medical cost myths

Post by jacksonm2 » Sat Nov 09, 2019 5:12 pm

ochotona wrote:
Sat Nov 09, 2019 5:06 pm
jacksonm2 wrote:
Sat Nov 09, 2019 1:05 pm
My 3 kids were born 1974-1977 and I can assure you they have seen plenty of hardship in their lives.

So much so that my 23-year old adopted granddaughter just told me she has no intention of ever having kids. Had to tell her I didn't blame her at all, notwithstanding the fact that if I had felt the same way at her age she wouldn't be here.
I guess I didn't say it correctly.

Outside of the Great Depression and being a combatant in a shooting war, Americans have not systematically on a widespread basis (millions of people at a time) experienced huge hardship. Our "average hardship" is another society's wealth.

"Huge hardship" is people from the other political party coming after you with guns in the night unless you catch the last boat / train out, the currency going to zero, stocks going to zero, can't get food or water or medication, the schools are closed and kids lose years of education. That's what I mean by hardship. My Mother went through this. She thinks Millennials are total snowflakes.
What country was she from?
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Re: Countering medical cost myths

Post by vnatale » Sat Nov 09, 2019 5:30 pm

ochotona wrote:
Sat Nov 09, 2019 5:06 pm
jacksonm2 wrote:
Sat Nov 09, 2019 1:05 pm
My 3 kids were born 1974-1977 and I can assure you they have seen plenty of hardship in their lives.

So much so that my 23-year old adopted granddaughter just told me she has no intention of ever having kids. Had to tell her I didn't blame her at all, notwithstanding the fact that if I had felt the same way at her age she wouldn't be here.
I guess I didn't say it correctly.

Outside of the Great Depression and being a combatant in a shooting war, Americans have not systematically on a widespread basis (millions of people at a time) experienced huge hardship. Our "average hardship" is another society's wealth.

"Huge hardship" is people from the other political party coming after you with guns in the night unless you catch the last boat / train out, the currency going to zero, stocks going to zero, can't get food or water or medication, the schools are closed and kids lose years of education. That's what I mean by hardship. My Mother went through this. She thinks Millennials are total snowflakes.
How many of you have prior read this quote? And, for those of you who have prior seen, how many times have you already seen it?

They [Young People] have exalted notions, because they have not been humbled by life or learned its necessary limitations; moreover, their hopeful disposition makes them think themselves equal to great things -- and that means having exalted notions. They would always rather do noble deeds than useful ones: Their lives are regulated more by moral feeling than by reasoning -- all their mistakes are in the direction of doing things excessively and vehemently. They overdo everything -- they love too much, hate too much, and the same with everything else.

Vinny
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
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ochotona
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Re: Countering medical cost myths

Post by ochotona » Sat Nov 09, 2019 8:22 pm

jacksonm2 wrote:
Sat Nov 09, 2019 5:12 pm
What country was she from?
China during the Japanese occupation and after the war. She's still around, 90 years old. She thinks Trump is a snowflake too, and the Chinese counterparties in the negotiations have him on puppet strings.
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Maddy
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Re: Countering medical cost myths

Post by Maddy » Fri Nov 15, 2019 10:37 am

Here's an interesting development: https://www.zerohedge.com/health/shock- ... ose-secret
In a move that will send shockwaves across the $3.5 trillion US healthcare industry, on Friday [today] the Trump administration unveiled a plan that would - for the first time - force hospitals and insurers to disclose their secret negotiated rates, the WSJ reported.

In hopes of bringing some transparency and openness to a pathologically opaque industry, one which many have blamed for being behind the explosion in US underfunded liabilities to more than $100 trillion, administration officials said the final rule will compel hospitals in 2021 to publicize the rates they negotiate with individual insurers for all services, including drugs, supplies, facility fees and care by doctors who work for the facility. The White House would also propose extending the disclosure requirement to the $670 billion health-insurance industry. Insurance companies and group health plans that cover employees would have to disclose negotiated rates, as well as previously paid rates for out-of-network treatment, in computer-searchable file formats.
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Re: Countering medical cost myths

Post by WiseOne » Fri Nov 15, 2019 11:10 am

It's about time someone called the health care industry to account for the pricing games. However, I don't know really how this would enable patients to "comparison shop" when they're limited by their insurance plan to a small network of hospitals & doctors. Not to mention the layer of insurance between patients and the bills they pay.

If the next step is to outlaw "insurance networks" and rely on free market competition instead of contract negotiations to set prices, that would be even better. It would have the very nice side effect of getting rid of the out of network "surprise" billing that is responsible for a big chunk of medical bankruptcies.
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Maddy
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Re: Countering medical cost myths

Post by Maddy » Fri Nov 15, 2019 12:16 pm

WiseOne wrote:
Fri Nov 15, 2019 11:10 am
. . .I don't know really how this would enable patients to "comparison shop" when they're limited by their insurance plan to a small network of hospitals & doctors. Not to mention the layer of insurance between patients and the bills they pay.
I'm going to stay optimistic. First, the astronomical deductibles attached to many insurance plans (many in the area of $6,000 per year) make a large segment of the "insured" population essentially uninsured when it comes to all but the most catastrophic stuff. When these people realize that they are, in a very direct way, subsidizing those of their neighbors who have employer-paid insurance (or those who rely upon Medicare or Medicaid), they'll undoubtedly be clamoring for the same discounted price offered to their peers. And what is your doctor going to say to that? "I'm sorry, charging you full price is the only way we can afford to offer discounts to our preferred patients?"

Second, it's my understanding that the fiction of "full price" is a tax avoidance strategy that allows providers to artificially inflate their "customary" prices and then offer (illusory) discounts to those patients who pay out of pocket--discounts that become bogus charity write-offs at tax time. (This, of course, works only so long as you can convince everybody (wink, wink) that somebody is actually paying the undiscounted price.) All that's likely to be coming to an abrupt halt.

Third, the transparency itself is likely to cause a change of behavior on the part of the entire health care cabal, who will, I assume, be averse to having their dirty laundry hung out in the sunshine for all to see. Isolated anecdotes about $20 aspirin tablets are quickly forgotten, but an industry-wide conspiracy to extract as much as possible from people who have no realistic choice but to submit to their extortive terms starts looking to your Average Joe like the flat-out racketeering it is.

Finally, this is likely to be just the beginning. I see the next logical step on the part of the administration being the adoption of regulations that preclude disparate pricing and that require reasonable up-front disclosure.
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