Which camp?

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vnatale
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Which camp?

Post by vnatale » Sat Nov 09, 2019 2:21 pm

I just finished listening to this woman's presentation on her book: Gender and Our Brains: How New Neuroscience Explodes the Myths of the Male and Female Minds

She concluded by saying you are either in her camp or the "Men are from Mars; Women are from Venus" camp.

When the latter book came out in the 80s I instantly rejected it and have never wavered from that.

Therefore I am in her camp.

Which are you?

Vinny
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Re: Which camp?

Post by jacksonm2 » Sat Nov 09, 2019 4:54 pm

vnatale wrote:
Sat Nov 09, 2019 2:21 pm
I just finished listening to this woman's presentation on her book: Gender and Our Brains: How New Neuroscience Explodes the Myths of the Male and Female Minds

She concluded by saying you are either in her camp or the "Men are from Mars; Women are from Venus" camp.

When the latter book came out in the 80s I instantly rejected it and have never wavered from that.

Therefore I am in her camp.

Which are you?

Vinny
Except maybe for WiseOne is there anybody here who knows enough about Neuroscience to feel qualified to join a "camp"?
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Re: Which camp?

Post by dualstow » Sat Nov 09, 2019 5:12 pm

I reject her assertion that there are only the two camps, therefore I am not in her camp.
Therefore2 I am not necessarily in the other camp.
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Re: Which camp?

Post by vnatale » Sat Nov 09, 2019 5:27 pm

dualstow wrote:
Sat Nov 09, 2019 5:12 pm
I reject her assertion that there are only the two camps, therefore I am not in her camp.
Therefore2 I am not necessarily in the other camp.
If you subscribe that basically the human race can be divided into males and females, do you believe:

1) Are their differences between the "male" and "female" brain (which seems to have been the predominant belief for decades if not centuries).
2) There are no differences.


Vinny
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Re: Which camp?

Post by dualstow » Sat Nov 09, 2019 5:40 pm

You said “basically.” Let’s replace that with “the majority.” I have read that a little hormone surge can practically change a male to a female or vice versa in the womb. I think that was in ‘Shadows of Forgotten Ancestors’, a Sagan/Druyan book mentioned here at gyro, but i’m not sure.

It would be insane to reject the glaring reality that there are also people with gender dysphoria, transgender and would-be transgenders. (And, a subset of that subset is of course taking that to its illogical extreme and identifying as a catfish. Their problem, not mine).

Perhaps when my brother and my friends and I exchange stories about our wives, and they about us, it’s just confirmation bias. And to say that, hey, this woman thinks like a guy is the necessary converse of that.

I try not to prejudge people. That’s all that matters.
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Re: Which camp?

Post by vnatale » Sat Nov 09, 2019 5:45 pm

dualstow wrote:
Sat Nov 09, 2019 5:40 pm
You said “basically.” Let’s replace that with “the majority.” I have read that a little hormone surge can practically change a male to a female or vice versa in the womb. I think that was in ‘Shadows of Forgotten Ancestors’, a Sagan/Druyan book mentioned here at gyro, but i’m not sure.

It would be insane to reject the glaring reality that there are also people with gender dysphoria, transgender and would-be transgenders. (And, a subset of that subset is of course taking that to its illogical extreme and identifying as a catfish. Their problem, not mine).

Perhaps when my brother and my friends and I exchange stories about our wives, and they about us, it’s just confirmation bias. And to say that, hey, this woman thinks like a guy is the necessary converse of that.

I try not to prejudge people. That’s all that matters.
And, my objection to the male / female difference is because I believe in your last two sentences.

And, a lot of what you describe in the prior paragraph is what happens to males and females brought up in a certain culture whereby each sex is encouraged (or discouraged) in certain things, e.g, men better at math than women.

Vinny
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Re: Which camp?

Post by dualstow » Sat Nov 09, 2019 5:51 pm

Oh, I certainly don’t think men are better than women at math.

I do think it’s unfair for a trans woman (M ⇢ F) to compete with women in foot races, but of course that’s a body thing, not a brain thing. But if the bodies are different, maybe, just maybe, there are differences in the brain, caused by hormones.
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Re: Which camp?

Post by Kriegsspiel » Sat Nov 09, 2019 10:01 pm

Try The Male Brain and The Female Brain by Brizendine for a basic primer on the differences between male and female brains.
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Re: Which camp?

Post by jacksonm2 » Sun Nov 10, 2019 8:10 am

I observed that the book had 2 reviews on Amazon, one glowingly positive and the other negative.

But there were 3 positive reviews to be found online in Slate, The New York Times, and The Washington Post. I've never thought of any of those entities as being go to sources for accurate science but they are quite famous for political advocacy.
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Re: Which camp?

Post by Xan » Sun Nov 10, 2019 8:49 am

jacksonm2 wrote:
Sun Nov 10, 2019 8:10 am
I observed that the book had 2 reviews on Amazon, one glowingly positive and the other negative.
I assume you mean the book Vinny started this thread about, rather than the one Krieg just mentioned?

On the general topic, I think it would be strange to go in assuming that men's and women's brains are exactly the same. Why would anyone expect that?
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Re: Which camp?

Post by vnatale » Sun Nov 10, 2019 9:18 am

Kriegsspiel wrote:
Sat Nov 09, 2019 10:01 pm
Try The Male Brain and The Female Brain by Brizendine for a basic primer on the differences between male and female brains.
First book is 12 years old while the second is 8 years old. Do they both stand up to the science of today?

Vinny
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Re: Which camp?

Post by vnatale » Sun Nov 10, 2019 9:23 am

jacksonm2 wrote:
Sun Nov 10, 2019 8:10 am
I observed that the book had 2 reviews on Amazon, one glowingly positive and the other negative.

But there were 3 positive reviews to be found online in Slate, The New York Times, and The Washington Post. I've never thought of any of those entities as being go to sources for accurate science but they are quite famous for political advocacy.
1) I saw her speak for what seemed to be an hour. The first part was her talking about the book while the latter was her taking audience questions. She seemed quite persuasive and credible. And, she pointed out that many long held beliefs have not been based in facts / science but in ideologies.

2) Yes only 2 reviews. The negative was a total of 15 words. Not a persuasive review. However, the "glowingly positive one" was clearly specific and I'm putting it all here as it far better describes her book than I ever could:

"For centuries there has been a bias toward describing the sex differences between men and women seen in social behavior as due to differences in the brain. Early research on the brain, as the author points out in the first section of the book, appeared to uphold this hypothesis. However, careful analysis of the research findings suggests that many of the studies were flawed, or biased toward generating the results they produced. I found these first chapters fascinating. It’s a cautionary tale that in order to understand the results we must look at methods, and samples. Too often the news trumpets the results with no understanding of how they were achieved.

The second half of the book looks at more modern research utilizing functional MRI and brain imaging techniques. The chapters on research on newborns are fascinating. What they’re finding is that many of the myths about babies and small children are not accurate. Boys are supposed to be more interested in mechanical gadgets and girls in dolls. The more researcher bias is removed from the experimental setup, the more this difference washes out.

I agree with the conclusion of the author that it would be a good idea to pay more attention to individual differences. When large data sets are used many interesting findings are washed out as outliers. I think this is a very promising area of research.

I highly recommend this book if you’re interested in sex differences. The question of nature vs nurture is well explored and suggests that environment plays a significant role in how boys and girls see each other and themselves. This has implications for education and the socialization of young and not so young children"

My conclusion is that the author of this book is an A+ author.

Vinny
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Re: Which camp?

Post by vnatale » Sun Nov 10, 2019 9:26 am

Xan wrote:
Sun Nov 10, 2019 8:49 am
jacksonm2 wrote:
Sun Nov 10, 2019 8:10 am
I observed that the book had 2 reviews on Amazon, one glowingly positive and the other negative.
I assume you mean the book Vinny started this thread about, rather than the one Krieg just mentioned?

On the general topic, I think it would be strange to go in assuming that men's and women's brains are exactly the same. Why would anyone expect that?
1. Your assumption is correct.

2. Why would it be strange to assume that men's and women's brains are exactly the same? Do men and women have different hearts? Maybe they do. But I've never heard or read that anywhere. Do they have different blood? I'm a numbers / dollars person and biology is not a strength or an interest so maybe I am ignorant of all of this.

Vinny
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Re: Which camp?

Post by Libertarian666 » Sun Nov 10, 2019 9:31 am

Anyone who thinks that a typical man and a typical woman think alike must not know very many of each sex.
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Re: Which camp?

Post by vnatale » Sun Nov 10, 2019 9:36 am

Libertarian666 wrote:
Sun Nov 10, 2019 9:31 am

Anyone who thinks that a typical man and a typical woman think alike must not know very many of each sex.


Do the "typical" men all think alike?

The point is that there is no "typical". There can be no assumptions as to how a person is going to think based upon the person's sex. Furthermore, picking a country like the United States, there are a lot of cultural pressures that cause many males and many females to turn out a certain way. But in a completely neutral culture there would not be as many similarities within each sex.

Vinny
Simonjester wrote:
the hardware may be the same, but the way it gets wired will always tend toward recognizable differences in men and women. Hormones, chromosomes, dna?, the organs and equipment to bear a child, or produce fertilization for one, and life experience (nurture) will bend men and woman's thinking and way they perceive the world in predictable and different ways.

while nurture is informative to the process and on occasion pivotal, in general i would guess it is the less influential. but also the most talked about because "social justice politics" ..
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Re: Which camp?

Post by Libertarian666 » Sun Nov 10, 2019 9:43 am

vnatale wrote:
Sun Nov 10, 2019 9:36 am
Libertarian666 wrote:
Sun Nov 10, 2019 9:31 am
Anyone who thinks that a typical man and a typical woman think alike must not know very many of each sex.
Do the "typical" men all think alike?

The point is that there is no "typical". There can be no assumptions as to how a person is going to think based upon the person's sex.
No, there is a rebuttable presumption. To use MBTI terminology, most women are Fs, and most men are Ts. Thus, when dealing with a woman whom you know nothing else about, it is wise to assume that she is an F, which means that she makes decisions primarily via emotion rather than thought. With an otherwise unknown man, you can generally assume that he will make decisions primarily based on thought rather than emotion.

Of course once you are acquainted with a particular person it's usually not hard to figure out his/her preference in this matter, so then the presumption is either confirmed or refuted.
Libertarian666 wrote:
Sun Nov 10, 2019 9:31 am
Furthermore, picking a country like the United States, there are a lot of cultural pressures that cause many males and many females to turn out a certain way. But in a completely neutral culture there would not be as many similarities within each sex.
Please cite an example of such a culture.
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Re: Which camp?

Post by vnatale » Sun Nov 10, 2019 9:50 am

Libertarian666 wrote:
Sun Nov 10, 2019 9:43 am
vnatale wrote:
Sun Nov 10, 2019 9:36 am
Libertarian666 wrote:
Sun Nov 10, 2019 9:31 am
Anyone who thinks that a typical man and a typical woman think alike must not know very many of each sex.
Do the "typical" men all think alike?

The point is that there is no "typical". There can be no assumptions as to how a person is going to think based upon the person's sex.
No, there is a rebuttable presumption. To use MBTI terminology, most women are Fs, and most men are Ts. Thus, when dealing with a woman whom you know nothing else about, it is wise to assume that she is an F, which means that she makes decisions primarily via emotion rather than thought. With an otherwise unknown man, you can generally assume that he will make decisions primarily based on thought rather than emotion.

Of course once you are acquainted with a particular person it's usually not hard to figure out his/her preference in this matter, so then the presumption is either confirmed or refuted.
Libertarian666 wrote:
Sun Nov 10, 2019 9:31 am
Furthermore, picking a country like the United States, there are a lot of cultural pressures that cause many males and many females to turn out a certain way. But in a completely neutral culture there would not be as many similarities within each sex.
Please cite an example of such a culture.
I have loved the Myers Briggs. When I introduced to it over 30 years ago it became an avocation for several years. I ended up formally or informally testing over 100 people. But I later read (and was convinced) that it really has no scientific basis.

And, I've just recently read (and, been convinced) that deep down, for major decisions just about all of all decide based upon how we feel.

No such culture exists because I don't believe there are any female dominated cultures or neutral cultures. Are there any that are not predominantly male run?

Vinny
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Re: Which camp?

Post by Kriegsspiel » Sun Nov 10, 2019 10:07 am

vnatale wrote:
Sun Nov 10, 2019 9:26 am
2. Why would it be strange to assume that men's and women's brains are exactly the same? Do men and women have different hearts? Maybe they do. But I've never heard or read that anywhere. Do they have different blood? I'm a numbers / dollars person and biology is not a strength or an interest so maybe I am ignorant of all of this.

Vinny
"Men and women have different bodies. The differences are the direct result of evolution. Women's bodies evolved to suit the demands of bearing and rearing children and of gathering plant food. Men's bodies evolved to suit the demands of rising in a male hierarchy, fighting over women, and providing meat to a family.

Men and women have different minds. The differences are the direct result of evolution. Women's minds evolved to suit the demands of bearing and rearing children and of gathering plant food. Men's minds evolved to suit the demands of rising in a male hierarchy, fighting over women, and providing meat to a family.

One paragraph is banal, the second inflammatory."
- Matt Ridley, The Red Queen

Talk about fun passages to quote in 2019, he totally thinks it's banal to say that men and women have different bodies ;D
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Re: Which camp?

Post by Kriegsspiel » Sun Nov 10, 2019 10:10 am

vnatale wrote:
Sun Nov 10, 2019 9:18 am
Kriegsspiel wrote:
Sat Nov 09, 2019 10:01 pm
Try The Male Brain and The Female Brain by Brizendine for a basic primer on the differences between male and female brains.
First book is 12 years old while the second is 8 years old. Do they both stand up to the science of today?

Vinny
As far as I can tell, yes.
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Re: Which camp?

Post by Kriegsspiel » Sun Nov 10, 2019 10:36 am

vnatale wrote:
Sat Nov 09, 2019 2:21 pm
I just finished listening to this woman's presentation on her book: Gender and Our Brains: How New Neuroscience Explodes the Myths of the Male and Female Minds

She concluded by saying you are either in her camp or the "Men are from Mars; Women are from Venus" camp.

When the latter book came out in the 80s I instantly rejected it and have never wavered from that.

Therefore I am in her camp.

Which are you?

Vinny
LOL, I just googled the author of Gender And Our Brains, Gina Rippon. She calls the book I recommended, The Female Brain, neurotrash ;) I'll see if I can get a hold of Rippon's book though, since I would like to see what she says.

Here is a quote from her wiki:
Neurotrashers, she says, "extrapolate wildly" and such science can be used for "social engineering" to reinforce perceived male and female roles and status, an example of the kind argument she feels could be deployed is, "You are what your brain can do, and if your brain can’t do tricky things like running a country, designing a bridge, starting a war, you shouldn’t try and society shouldn’t let you."[
Our society doesn't tell girls that they're incapable of X because of their brains. It's quite the opposite.
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Re: Which camp?

Post by sweetbthescrivener » Sun Nov 10, 2019 11:55 am

A counterpoint to her ideas might be the work of Simon Baron Cohen.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eEYy1GXaNNY

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2003/ ... ianreview6
Why do most men use the phone to exchange information rather than have a chat? Why do so many women love talking about their feelings and relationships? We may suspect profound differences between the sexes but do they stand up to scientific scrutiny?

Simon Baron-Cohen argues that men's and women's brains are made differently: the female brain is hard-wired for empathy, and the male to understand and build systems. Take brother and sister Alex and Hannah. Alex's mother remembers that, as a toddler, he loved toy tractors and fire engines and would happily sit for hours prodding and pressing objects just to see what would happen. By the age of five he was obsessed with compiling football stickers. Music came later - naturally he drew up his own pop charts and stored his tapes in strict order - and in his teens he quickly mastered computers. His mother recalls that the interests just "seemed to come from deep within him". Alex, Baron-Cohen says, has a typical systemising, male or "S" type brain.



Hannah's big passion was people. Even in her early years she loved making them laugh and smile. Hannah learned to talk earlier than her brother and plastered her walls with pictures of kittens and foals. As a teenager she also loved pop music, but rather than carefully cataloguing it, she would dance and sing in front of the mirror with her friends. "She's really good at asking people sensitive questions so that she can explore how they're feeling," her mother says. Baron-Cohen says Hannah has an empathic, female or "E" type brain.
Though I have the feeling that Rippon would respond by saying who are you going to believe, me or Ali G's brother?

Baron-Cohen popped into my head when I first came across this thread, and what do you know, the two have already debated:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=31c48XUtwVg
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Re: Which camp?

Post by vnatale » Sun Nov 10, 2019 12:07 pm

sweetbthescrivener wrote:
Sun Nov 10, 2019 11:55 am
A counterpoint to her ideas might be the work of Simon Baron Cohen.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eEYy1GXaNNY

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2003/ ... ianreview6
Why do most men use the phone to exchange information rather than have a chat? Why do so many women love talking about their feelings and relationships? We may suspect profound differences between the sexes but do they stand up to scientific scrutiny?

Simon Baron-Cohen argues that men's and women's brains are made differently: the female brain is hard-wired for empathy, and the male to understand and build systems. Take brother and sister Alex and Hannah. Alex's mother remembers that, as a toddler, he loved toy tractors and fire engines and would happily sit for hours prodding and pressing objects just to see what would happen. By the age of five he was obsessed with compiling football stickers. Music came later - naturally he drew up his own pop charts and stored his tapes in strict order - and in his teens he quickly mastered computers. His mother recalls that the interests just "seemed to come from deep within him". Alex, Baron-Cohen says, has a typical systemising, male or "S" type brain.



Hannah's big passion was people. Even in her early years she loved making them laugh and smile. Hannah learned to talk earlier than her brother and plastered her walls with pictures of kittens and foals. As a teenager she also loved pop music, but rather than carefully cataloguing it, she would dance and sing in front of the mirror with her friends. "She's really good at asking people sensitive questions so that she can explore how they're feeling," her mother says. Baron-Cohen says Hannah has an empathic, female or "E" type brain.
Though I have the feeling that Rippon would respond by saying who are you going to believe, me or Ali G's brother?

Baron-Cohen popped into my head when I first came across this thread, and what do you know, the two have already debated:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=31c48XUtwVg
Wouldn't the citing of Alex and Hannah be the epitome of anecdotal "proof" and entirely un-scientific? And, am I an outlier since I don't use a cell phone for talking, keep my wired phone unplugged at home, hardly ever use my office phone, preferring either email or face-to-face communications?

Vinny
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Re: Which camp?

Post by Libertarian666 » Sun Nov 10, 2019 12:16 pm

vnatale wrote:
Sun Nov 10, 2019 9:50 am
Libertarian666 wrote:
Sun Nov 10, 2019 9:43 am
vnatale wrote:
Sun Nov 10, 2019 9:36 am


Do the "typical" men all think alike?

The point is that there is no "typical". There can be no assumptions as to how a person is going to think based upon the person's sex.
No, there is a rebuttable presumption. To use MBTI terminology, most women are Fs, and most men are Ts. Thus, when dealing with a woman whom you know nothing else about, it is wise to assume that she is an F, which means that she makes decisions primarily via emotion rather than thought. With an otherwise unknown man, you can generally assume that he will make decisions primarily based on thought rather than emotion.

Of course once you are acquainted with a particular person it's usually not hard to figure out his/her preference in this matter, so then the presumption is either confirmed or refuted.
Libertarian666 wrote:
Sun Nov 10, 2019 9:31 am
Furthermore, picking a country like the United States, there are a lot of cultural pressures that cause many males and many females to turn out a certain way. But in a completely neutral culture there would not be as many similarities within each sex.
Please cite an example of such a culture.
I have loved the Myers Briggs. When I introduced to it over 30 years ago it became an avocation for several years. I ended up formally or informally testing over 100 people. But I later read (and was convinced) that it really has no scientific basis.
I have found it extremely useful in predicting how people will react to various stimuli.
Libertarian666 wrote:
Sun Nov 10, 2019 9:31 am
And, I've just recently read (and, been convinced) that deep down, for major decisions just about all of all decide based upon how we feel.
Most people do.
Libertarian666 wrote:
Sun Nov 10, 2019 9:31 am
No such culture exists because I don't believe there are any female dominated cultures or neutral cultures. Are there any that are not predominantly male run?
The US is female dominated. If you don't believe me, spend a day in divorce court and watch men being shredded, or watch what happens to any man who is accused of doing anything inappropriate to a woman, with or without any evidence that it even occurred (especially if the man isn't a Democrat).

Or take a look at the applications for obtaining or renewing a professional license such as an insurance license. If you are behind on child support payments, expect to have your license revoked even though this has absolutely nothing to do with your qualifications for selling insurance.

Here's a description of some of the disadvantages of being male in the US today: https://menslaws.com/men-now-officially ... izens-now/
Last edited by Libertarian666 on Sun Nov 10, 2019 12:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Which camp?

Post by dualstow » Sun Nov 10, 2019 12:20 pm

Kriegsspiel wrote:
Sun Nov 10, 2019 10:36 am
LOL, I just googled the author of Gender And Our Brains, Gina Rippon. She calls the book I recommended, The Female Brain, neurotrash ;) I'll see if I can get a hold of Rippon's book though, since I would like to see what she says.
Sounds like something out of a William Gibson novel.
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Re: Which camp?

Post by vnatale » Sun Nov 10, 2019 12:44 pm

Libertarian666 wrote:
Sun Nov 10, 2019 12:16 pm
vnatale wrote:
Sun Nov 10, 2019 9:50 am
Libertarian666 wrote:
Sun Nov 10, 2019 9:43 am


No, there is a rebuttable presumption. To use MBTI terminology, most women are Fs, and most men are Ts. Thus, when dealing with a woman whom you know nothing else about, it is wise to assume that she is an F, which means that she makes decisions primarily via emotion rather than thought. With an otherwise unknown man, you can generally assume that he will make decisions primarily based on thought rather than emotion.

Of course once you are acquainted with a particular person it's usually not hard to figure out his/her preference in this matter, so then the presumption is either confirmed or refuted.



Please cite an example of such a culture.
I have loved the Myers Briggs. When I introduced to it over 30 years ago it became an avocation for several years. I ended up formally or informally testing over 100 people. But I later read (and was convinced) that it really has no scientific basis.
I have found it extremely useful in predicting how people will react to various stimuli.
Libertarian666 wrote:
Sun Nov 10, 2019 9:31 am
And, I've just recently read (and, been convinced) that deep down, for major decisions just about all of all decide based upon how we feel.
Most people do.
Libertarian666 wrote:
Sun Nov 10, 2019 9:31 am
No such culture exists because I don't believe there are any female dominated cultures or neutral cultures. Are there any that are not predominantly male run?
The US is female dominated. If you don't believe me, spend a day in divorce court and watch men being shredded, or watch what happens to any man who is accused of doing anything inappropriate to a woman, with or without any evidence that it even occurred (especially if the man isn't a Democrat).

Or take a look at the applications for obtaining or renewing a professional license such as an insurance license. If you are behind on child support payments, expect to have your license revoked even though this has absolutely nothing to do with your qualifications for selling insurance.

Here's a description of some of the disadvantages of being male in the US today: https://menslaws.com/men-now-officially ... izens-now/
Correct me if I'm wrong but is it not men who are in the vast majority in the Senate, Congress, the upper echelons of the military, partners of the Big 4 Accounting firms, similar largest law firms, largest business consulting organizations...and so on?
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
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