Texas Statewide Proposition 9, November 2019 Election

Discussion of the Gold portion of the Permanent Portfolio

Moderator: Global Moderator

User avatar
ochotona
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 3214
Joined: Fri Jan 30, 2015 5:54 am

Texas Statewide Proposition 9, November 2019 Election

Post by ochotona » Mon Oct 21, 2019 6:49 pm

VERY IMPORTANT ITEM TO VOTE FOR, AND YOU SHOULD VOTE FOR PROP 9 !!!

STATE OF TEXAS PROPOSITION 9
PROPUESTA NÚMERO 9 DEL ESTADO DE TEXAS
TIỂU BANG TEXAS DỰ LUẬT SỐ 9
TEXAS 州,議案 9

"The constitutional amendment authorizing the legislature to exempt from ad
valorem taxation precious metal held in a precious metal depository located in
this state."

"Enmienda constitucional que autoriza a la Legislatura eximir de impuestos ad
valorem a los metales preciosos guardados en un depósito de metales
preciosos con sede en este Estado."

"Tu chính án hiến pháp ủy quyền cho cơ quan lập pháp miễn trừ thuế giá trị tài
sản đối với kim loại quý được giữ trong kho lưu trữ kim loại quý nằm trong tiểu
bang này."

"本憲法修正案授權立法機關對存放在本州貴重金屬庫中的貴重金屬免徵從價税。"

FOR or AGAINST
User avatar
pugchief
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 4788
Joined: Tue Jun 26, 2012 2:41 pm
Location: suburbs of Chicago, IL

Re: Texas Statewide Proposition 9, November 2019 Election

Post by pugchief » Mon Oct 21, 2019 8:37 pm

Are you currently taxed annually on the value of precious metals you own?
User avatar
Xan
Administrator
Administrator
Posts: 3748
Joined: Tue Mar 13, 2012 1:51 pm

Re: Texas Statewide Proposition 9, November 2019 Election

Post by Xan » Mon Oct 21, 2019 8:59 pm

Maybe it's to prevent municipalities from attempting it?
User avatar
ochotona
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 3214
Joined: Fri Jan 30, 2015 5:54 am

Re: Texas Statewide Proposition 9, November 2019 Election

Post by ochotona » Tue Oct 22, 2019 5:27 am

pugchief wrote:
Mon Oct 21, 2019 8:37 pm
Are you currently taxed annually on the value of precious metals you own?
No. Perhaps they want to plug a loophole before it gets used.
User avatar
shekels
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 520
Joined: Sun Jun 02, 2019 9:01 am

Re: Texas Statewide Proposition 9, November 2019 Election

Post by shekels » Tue Oct 22, 2019 9:35 am

From the Texas Tribune
Proposition 9
How it will read on the ballot: “The constitutional amendment authorizing the legislature to exempt from ad valorem taxation precious metal held in a precious metal depository located in this state.”

What it means: This would allow the legislature to create a property tax exemption for precious metals held in state depositories — like the Texas Bullion Depository, scheduled to open next year in Leander.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Libertarian666
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 5994
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 1969 6:00 pm

Re: Texas Statewide Proposition 9, November 2019 Election

Post by Libertarian666 » Tue Oct 22, 2019 3:15 pm

ochotona wrote:
Tue Oct 22, 2019 5:27 am
pugchief wrote:
Mon Oct 21, 2019 8:37 pm
Are you currently taxed annually on the value of precious metals you own?
No. Perhaps they want to plug a loophole before it gets used.
Yes, I believe this is a precautionary measure.
jacksonm2
Full Member
Full Member
Posts: 78
Joined: Fri Sep 27, 2019 5:46 pm

Re: Texas Statewide Proposition 9, November 2019 Election

Post by jacksonm2 » Tue Oct 22, 2019 4:28 pm

I only keep my physical gold where I can get my physical hands on it any time I want.

If somebody like Elizabeth Warren gets elected she's going to need around 32 trillion dollars to fulfill her campaign promises just for Medicare for all and that was before the latest thing I read that she said today which I don't even remember what it was. Double or tripling funding for whatever it was is the best I can remember.

I have no idea where she will get that money but a 100 percent ad valorem tax on gold wherever she can get her hands on it it will probably be way more easy to get from the Texas depository than the Perth Mint.

If that sounds like a paranoid delusion on my part, well excuse me. I've seen such paranoid delusions come to fruition on this hostile planet we live on. Very unlikely yes, impossible no. Ask people in South Vietnam and Venezuela.

Right now I keep just enough gold bullion on hand to live on for one year and the rest is in ETF's. Jesus said in the Sermon on the Mount that you shouldn't store up treasures for the future and that one day at a time should be sufficient. Well, I don't trust Jesus that much any more so I went with one year.
User avatar
ochotona
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 3214
Joined: Fri Jan 30, 2015 5:54 am

Re: Texas Statewide Proposition 9, November 2019 Election

Post by ochotona » Tue Oct 22, 2019 4:33 pm

jacksonm2 wrote:
Tue Oct 22, 2019 4:28 pm
If that sounds like a paranoid delusion on my part, well excuse me. I've seen such paranoid delusions come to fruition on this hostile planet we live on. Very unlikely yes, impossible no. Ask people in South Vietnam and Venezuela.

It's not paranoid and not delusional. No need to apologize. Hey isn't it interesting our ballots in Houston have to be in Vietnamese? so many Vietnamese came here.
jacksonm2
Full Member
Full Member
Posts: 78
Joined: Fri Sep 27, 2019 5:46 pm

Re: Texas Statewide Proposition 9, November 2019 Election

Post by jacksonm2 » Tue Oct 22, 2019 5:04 pm

ochotona wrote:
Tue Oct 22, 2019 4:33 pm
jacksonm2 wrote:
Tue Oct 22, 2019 4:28 pm
If that sounds like a paranoid delusion on my part, well excuse me. I've seen such paranoid delusions come to fruition on this hostile planet we live on. Very unlikely yes, impossible no. Ask people in South Vietnam and Venezuela.

It's not paranoid and not delusional. No need to apologize. Hey isn't it interesting our ballots in Houston have to be in Vietnamese? so many Vietnamese came here.
Yes, that is truly interesting. I think I could probably successfully predict the percentage of Vietnamese voters who would vote in favor of the proposition. At least the older ones. Their kids? Hard to say. Depends on how much they have Americanized.
Libertarian666
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 5994
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 1969 6:00 pm

Re: Texas Statewide Proposition 9, November 2019 Election

Post by Libertarian666 » Tue Oct 22, 2019 8:16 pm

jacksonm2 wrote:
Tue Oct 22, 2019 4:28 pm
I only keep my physical gold where I can get my physical hands on it any time I want.

If somebody like Elizabeth Warren gets elected she's going to need around 32 trillion dollars to fulfill her campaign promises just for Medicare for all and that was before the latest thing I read that she said today which I don't even remember what it was. Double or tripling funding for whatever it was is the best I can remember.

I have no idea where she will get that money but a 100 percent ad valorem tax on gold wherever she can get her hands on it it will probably be way more easy to get from the Texas depository than the Perth Mint.
The Texas depository was designed specifically to be resistant to such thievery.

Quoting from the enabling legislation for the depository (https://statutes.capitol.texas.gov/Docs ... V.2116.htm):

"Sec. 2116.023. CONFISCATIONS, REQUISITIONS, SEIZURES, AND OTHER ACTIONS VOID. (a) A purported confiscation, requisition, seizure, or other attempt to control the ownership, disposition, or proceeds of a withdrawal, transfer, liquidation, or settlement of a depository account, including the precious metals represented by the balance of a depository account, if effected by a governmental or quasi-governmental authority other than an authority of this state or by a financial institution or other person acting on behalf of or pursuant to a directive or authorization issued by a governmental or quasi-governmental authority other than an authority of this state, in the course of a generalized declaration of illegality or emergency relating to the ownership, possession, or disposition of one or more precious metals, contracts, or other rights to the precious metals or contracts or derivatives of the ownership, possession, disposition, contracts, or other rights, is void ab initio and of no force or effect."

Of course we don't know how the Supreme Court would rule if the feds tried to seize those assets, but I think we can say that the State of Texas would resist with all its might, which is considerable. The feds can't just do anything they want to the States.
User avatar
shekels
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 520
Joined: Sun Jun 02, 2019 9:01 am

Re: Texas Statewide Proposition 9, November 2019 Election

Post by shekels » Wed Oct 23, 2019 9:06 am

SECTION BY SECTION ANALYSIS
SECTION 1.Amends Subchapter B, Chapter 11, Tax Code, by adding Section 11.141, as follows:Sec. 11.141. PRECIOUS METAL HELD IN PRECIOUS METAL DEPOSITORY.
(a) Defines "precious metal" and "precious metal depository."(b) Entitles a person to an exemption from taxation of the precious metal that the person owns and that is held in a precious metal depository located in this state, regardless of whether the precious metalis held or used by the person for the production of income. (c) Prohibits the governing body of a taxing unit, notwithstanding
Section 11.14(c) (relating to authorizing the governing body of a taxing unit, by resolution or order, to provide for taxation of certain otherwise exempt tangible personal property that is not held or used for production of income), from providing for the taxation of precious metal exempted from taxation under Subsection (b).

SECTION 2.Amends Section 11.42(b), Tax Code, to provide that an exemption authorized by Section 11.11 (Public Property) or 11.141, rather than authorized by Section 11.11, is effective immediately on qualification for the exemption.
SECTION 3. Amends Section 11.43(a), Tax Code, to provide an additional exemption under Section 11.141 to the requirement that a person claiming an exemption, to receive an exemption, apply for the exemption.
SECTION 4. Provides that Section 11.141, Tax Code, as added by this Act, applies only to a tax year beginning on or after January 1, 2020.
SECTION 5. Effective date:January 1, 2020, contingent upon passage of the constitutional amendment proposed by the 86th Legislature, Regular Session, 2019, authorizing the legislature to exempt from ad valorem taxation precious metal held in a precious metal depository located in this state.


Rep. Giovanni Capriglione, a Republican from Southlake who authored the resolution that put the measure on the ballot, said removing the possibility of a tax would make Texas a more desirable place for people from all over to store their precious metals, allowing the state to better compete with other states that don’t tax precious metal deposits.

“Texas is going to be the only state in the country that will have no state income taxes, sales taxes or property taxes on gold or silver,” Capriglione said.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
User avatar
Xan
Administrator
Administrator
Posts: 3748
Joined: Tue Mar 13, 2012 1:51 pm

Re: Texas Statewide Proposition 9, November 2019 Election

Post by Xan » Wed Oct 23, 2019 9:35 am

jacksonm2 wrote:
Tue Oct 22, 2019 4:28 pm
I have no idea where she will get that money but a 100 percent ad valorem tax on gold wherever she can get her hands on it it will probably be way more easy to get from the Texas depository than the Perth Mint.
Libertarian666 gave a good reply to this, but I'd also like to point out that while the Feds may have trouble seizing gold from the Perth Mint, they would have much, much less trouble seizing shares of AAAU that are held in a nationwide brokerage based in New York.
User avatar
shekels
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 520
Joined: Sun Jun 02, 2019 9:01 am

Re: Texas Statewide Proposition 9, November 2019 Election

Post by shekels » Wed Oct 23, 2019 9:56 am

shekels wrote:
Wed Oct 23, 2019 9:06 am


Rep. Giovanni Capriglione, a Republican from Southlake who authored the resolution that put the measure on the ballot, said removing the possibility of a tax would make Texas a more desirable place for people from all over to store their precious metals, allowing the state to better compete with other states that don’t tax precious metal deposits.

“Texas is going to be the only state in the country that will have no state income taxes, sales taxes or property taxes on gold or silver,” Capriglione said.
And having Gold in Texas is not a bad Idea with increasing political polarization.
So when the U.S. breaks up into Regions, Texas can have it's own Gold Bullion Vault. :)
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
User avatar
sophie
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 4588
Joined: Mon Apr 23, 2012 7:15 pm

Re: Texas Statewide Proposition 9, November 2019 Election

Post by sophie » Wed Oct 23, 2019 12:04 pm

Xan wrote:
Wed Oct 23, 2019 9:35 am
jacksonm2 wrote:
Tue Oct 22, 2019 4:28 pm
I have no idea where she will get that money but a 100 percent ad valorem tax on gold wherever she can get her hands on it it will probably be way more easy to get from the Texas depository than the Perth Mint.
Libertarian666 gave a good reply to this, but I'd also like to point out that while the Feds may have trouble seizing gold from the Perth Mint, they would have much, much less trouble seizing shares of AAAU that are held in a nationwide brokerage based in New York.
Not so sure about that. AAAU is backed by Perth Mint's gold, so the Australian government might possibly have something to say about a seizure of their sovereign assets.

I'd guess that bullion held in a private or state-run repository within US borders would be a whole lot more of a vulnerable target. Any state sensibilities would be pretty simply overcome by invoking the "it's only going to affect the rich and who cares about them" line. That's why there wasn't much of an uproar when it was last done in the 1930s.
Libertarian666
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 5994
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 1969 6:00 pm

Re: Texas Statewide Proposition 9, November 2019 Election

Post by Libertarian666 » Wed Oct 23, 2019 12:28 pm

sophie wrote:
Wed Oct 23, 2019 12:04 pm
Xan wrote:
Wed Oct 23, 2019 9:35 am
jacksonm2 wrote:
Tue Oct 22, 2019 4:28 pm
I have no idea where she will get that money but a 100 percent ad valorem tax on gold wherever she can get her hands on it it will probably be way more easy to get from the Texas depository than the Perth Mint.
Libertarian666 gave a good reply to this, but I'd also like to point out that while the Feds may have trouble seizing gold from the Perth Mint, they would have much, much less trouble seizing shares of AAAU that are held in a nationwide brokerage based in New York.
Not so sure about that. AAAU is backed by Perth Mint's gold, so the Australian government might possibly have something to say about a seizure of their sovereign assets.
It wouldn't be a seizure of their assets. It would be a seizure of others' claims on those assets.
sophie wrote:
Wed Oct 23, 2019 12:04 pm
I'd guess that bullion held in a private or state-run repository within US borders would be a whole lot more of a vulnerable target. Any state sensibilities would be pretty simply overcome by invoking the "it's only going to affect the rich and who cares about them" line. That's why there wasn't much of an uproar when it was last done in the 1930s.
Private, yes.

But when was gold in a state-run depository confiscated?
Never, because there weren't any until now.

Or do you think the Texas legislature was just posturing when they said that the depository would ignore attempts by other (non-Texan) governmental agencies to confiscate deposits?

Because I think they know exactly what their rights and powers are.
User avatar
pugchief
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 4788
Joined: Tue Jun 26, 2012 2:41 pm
Location: suburbs of Chicago, IL

Re: Texas Statewide Proposition 9, November 2019 Election

Post by pugchief » Wed Oct 23, 2019 3:05 pm

I think you are all deluding yourselves if you think that if the US government wants to seize or tax your gold that holding it in TX or AU or anywhere else is going to matter. See FACTA. That has worked so well that the Swiss banking cartel basically quit offering US accounts.

You also underestimate the fervor of the far left to redistribute wealth.
Libertarian666
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 5994
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 1969 6:00 pm

Re: Texas Statewide Proposition 9, November 2019 Election

Post by Libertarian666 » Wed Oct 23, 2019 4:58 pm

pugchief wrote:
Wed Oct 23, 2019 3:05 pm
I think you are all deluding yourselves if you think that if the US government wants to seize or tax your gold that holding it in TX or AU or anywhere else is going to matter. See FACTA. That has worked so well that the Swiss banking cartel basically quit offering US accounts.
I'm intimately familiar with that situation, thanks. But the State of Texas has a greater incentive, and more legal ability, to fight, than the Swiss did.
pugchief wrote:
Wed Oct 23, 2019 3:05 pm
You also underestimate the fervor of the far left to redistribute wealth.
No, I'm sure they are quite fervid enough.
FarmerD
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 458
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2011 10:37 pm

Re: Texas Statewide Proposition 9, November 2019 Election

Post by FarmerD » Tue Oct 29, 2019 12:49 pm

sophie wrote:
Wed Oct 23, 2019 12:04 pm
Xan wrote:
Wed Oct 23, 2019 9:35 am
jacksonm2 wrote:
Tue Oct 22, 2019 4:28 pm
I have no idea where she will get that money but a 100 percent ad valorem tax on gold wherever she can get her hands on it it will probably be way more easy to get from the Texas depository than the Perth Mint.
Libertarian666 gave a good reply to this, but I'd also like to point out that while the Feds may have trouble seizing gold from the Perth Mint, they would have much, much less trouble seizing shares of AAAU that are held in a nationwide brokerage based in New York.
Not so sure about that. AAAU is backed by Perth Mint's gold, so the Australian government might possibly have something to say about a seizure of their sovereign assets.

I'd guess that bullion held in a private or state-run repository within US borders would be a whole lot more of a vulnerable target. Any state sensibilities would be pretty simply overcome by invoking the "it's only going to affect the rich and who cares about them" line. That's why there wasn't much of an uproar when it was last done in the 1930s.
States have constitutionally protected rights to create a gold backed currency. This is exactly what Texas is doing. As such it’s extremely unlikely the Feds can seize the gold at the depository, force sale of gold at the depository to the Feds, and if challenged by Texas, it is likely they can’t enforce capital gains tax or enact any windfall profits tax on gold in the Texas Bullion Depository. These are constitutional protections you can’t get with any overseas gold holding or gold stored in a domestic bank safe deposit box.
FarmerD
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 458
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2011 10:37 pm

Re: Texas Statewide Proposition 9, November 2019 Election

Post by FarmerD » Tue Oct 29, 2019 1:02 pm

pugchief wrote:
Wed Oct 23, 2019 3:05 pm
I think you are all deluding yourselves if you think that if the US government wants to seize or tax your gold that holding it in TX or AU or anywhere else is going to matter. See FACTA. That has worked so well that the Swiss banking cartel basically quit offering US accounts.

You also underestimate the fervor of the far left to redistribute wealth.
Article 10 of the Constitution gives states to right to issue gold backed currency. Once the Texas Depository issues its debit card this next spring, it will have accomplished this. At that point the feds can't touch or even tax the gold.
User avatar
ochotona
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 3214
Joined: Fri Jan 30, 2015 5:54 am

Re: Texas Statewide Proposition 9, November 2019 Election

Post by ochotona » Tue Oct 29, 2019 1:26 pm

FarmerD wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 12:49 pm
, and if challenged by Texas, it is likely they can’t enforce capital gains tax ...
We need a test case for this one!
User avatar
ochotona
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 3214
Joined: Fri Jan 30, 2015 5:54 am

Re: Texas Statewide Proposition 9, November 2019 Election

Post by ochotona » Tue Oct 29, 2019 1:31 pm

Confusing language:

"No State shall enter into any Treaty, Alliance, or Confederation; grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal; coin Money; emit Bills of Credit; make any Thing but gold and silver Coin a Tender in Payment of Debts; pass any Bill of Attainder, ex post facto Law, or Law impairing the Obligation of Contracts, or grant any Title of Nobility."

So States can't make coins.. but they can make "things" which are gold and silver coins which can be tendered to pay debts... sounds contradictory.
User avatar
Xan
Administrator
Administrator
Posts: 3748
Joined: Tue Mar 13, 2012 1:51 pm

Re: Texas Statewide Proposition 9, November 2019 Election

Post by Xan » Tue Oct 29, 2019 1:38 pm

ochotona wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 1:31 pm
Confusing language:

"No State shall enter into any Treaty, Alliance, or Confederation; grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal; coin Money; emit Bills of Credit; make any Thing but gold and silver Coin a Tender in Payment of Debts; pass any Bill of Attainder, ex post facto Law, or Law impairing the Obligation of Contracts, or grant any Title of Nobility."

So States can't make coins.. but they can make "things" which are gold and silver coins which can be tendered to pay debts... sounds contradictory.
No, they can't make anything other than gold and silver coins into a currency.
FarmerD
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 458
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2011 10:37 pm

Re: Texas Statewide Proposition 9, November 2019 Election

Post by FarmerD » Tue Oct 29, 2019 1:46 pm

ochotona wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 1:31 pm
Confusing language:

"No State shall enter into any Treaty, Alliance, or Confederation; grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal; coin Money; emit Bills of Credit; make any Thing but gold and silver Coin a Tender in Payment of Debts; pass any Bill of Attainder, ex post facto Law, or Law impairing the Obligation of Contracts, or grant any Title of Nobility."

So States can't make coins.. but they can make "things" which are gold and silver coins which can be tendered to pay debts... sounds contradictory.
This means States can't issue fiat currency so they can't take a round piece of iron, copper, etc. and stamp a currency value on it, in other words they can't make quarters, nickels, dimes etc.. However, they are allowed to use gold or silver bullion as money.
FarmerD
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 458
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2011 10:37 pm

Re: Texas Statewide Proposition 9, November 2019 Election

Post by FarmerD » Tue Oct 29, 2019 1:51 pm

ochotona wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 1:26 pm
FarmerD wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 12:49 pm
, and if challenged by Texas, it is likely they can’t enforce capital gains tax ...
We need a test case for this one!
I visited the depository a couple weeks ago. One of the managers said Texas has sent letters to the IRS over the past year or two but have not gotten any responses. He would not tell exactly what those letters asked the IRS but I think its obvious what Texas was inquiring about.
Libertarian666
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 5994
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 1969 6:00 pm

Re: Texas Statewide Proposition 9, November 2019 Election

Post by Libertarian666 » Tue Oct 29, 2019 3:08 pm

We are going to vote on this tomorrow. Thanks for the heads-up!
Post Reply