American Eagle or Canadian Maple Leaf?
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- vnatale
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American Eagle or Canadian Maple Leaf?
For those of you are Americans living in the United States and buying gold coins as part of your gold investment, where do you stand on the difference in prices between the American Eagle and the Canadian Maple Leaf? And, for what reasons do you buy one or the other.
In an email last night, I asked this question of one of the gold dealers:
"Finally, the Eagle and Maple Leaf each have the same quantity of gold, correct? What is the reason for the slight premium for the American version?"
The response I received:
"Yes, both the eagle and maple leaf are a full troy once. Do the popularity, recognition and the fact it’s USA the eagle buys and sells for a bit of a higher premium. Also the American Eagle is more private..... no reporting requirements when you choose to sell doesn’t matter how few or how many. The maple leaf is reportable on 25 coins or more."
Thanks for any responses as part of my Permanent Portfolio plan for the gold coin portion is deciding how to apportion it between the Eagles and the Maple Leafs.
In an email last night, I asked this question of one of the gold dealers:
"Finally, the Eagle and Maple Leaf each have the same quantity of gold, correct? What is the reason for the slight premium for the American version?"
The response I received:
"Yes, both the eagle and maple leaf are a full troy once. Do the popularity, recognition and the fact it’s USA the eagle buys and sells for a bit of a higher premium. Also the American Eagle is more private..... no reporting requirements when you choose to sell doesn’t matter how few or how many. The maple leaf is reportable on 25 coins or more."
Thanks for any responses as part of my Permanent Portfolio plan for the gold coin portion is deciding how to apportion it between the Eagles and the Maple Leafs.
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
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Re: American Eagle or Canadian Maple Leaf?
I look for the lowest premium, which has usually been on Krugerrands in the past. I think they are all nice looking and I have some of each. Panda's are nice too.
- vnatale
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Re: American Eagle or Canadian Maple Leaf?
Regarding my question...this is additional information from Craig / Tex's book:
"For a U.S. investor, it is recommended that you buy American Eagles, Krugerrands, or Canadian Maple Leafs. While Krugerrands and Maple Leafs often sell for a lower markup than American Eagles, the American Eagle coin will normally provide a higher premium when you go to sell it (all three coins have the same one-ounce gold content). Any coin dealer will buy these coins so there is no need to worry that you'll get stuck with a coin you can't sell."
Vinny
"For a U.S. investor, it is recommended that you buy American Eagles, Krugerrands, or Canadian Maple Leafs. While Krugerrands and Maple Leafs often sell for a lower markup than American Eagles, the American Eagle coin will normally provide a higher premium when you go to sell it (all three coins have the same one-ounce gold content). Any coin dealer will buy these coins so there is no need to worry that you'll get stuck with a coin you can't sell."
Vinny
vnatale wrote: ↑Tue Oct 08, 2019 8:51 pm For those of you are Americans living in the United States and buying gold coins as part of your gold investment, where do you stand on the difference in prices between the American Eagle and the Canadian Maple Leaf? And, for what reasons do you buy one or the other.
In an email last night, I asked this question of one of the gold dealers:
"Finally, the Eagle and Maple Leaf each have the same quantity of gold, correct? What is the reason for the slight premium for the American version?"
The response I received:
"Yes, both the eagle and maple leaf are a full troy once. Do the popularity, recognition and the fact it’s USA the eagle buys and sells for a bit of a higher premium. Also the American Eagle is more private..... no reporting requirements when you choose to sell doesn’t matter how few or how many. The maple leaf is reportable on 25 coins or more."
Thanks for any responses as part of my Permanent Portfolio plan for the gold coin portion is deciding how to apportion it between the Eagles and the Maple Leafs.
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
Re: American Eagle or Canadian Maple Leaf?
Maple Leafs scratch like crazy. Even rubbing them with a cotton cloth will cause damage. If you drop one on the table it will ding. On the floor... Probably it bends in half.
Re: American Eagle or Canadian Maple Leaf?
Moral of the story -- avoid fondling your gold!
Or....get a 1970s kruggerand to fondle and keep the rest in the safe.
- dualstow
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Re: American Eagle or Canadian Maple Leaf?
^ This ^
I have one maple leaf and it's beautiful. But, krugerrands and american eagles have other metals that harden the coin, and that's worth it for long term holders.
Vinny, could you confirm that when you said "Level 4" investor you were referring to something in Craig and MT's book? (As Geaux Saints suggested in the other thread).
(edited to spell Vinny’s name properly)
Last edited by dualstow on Wed Oct 09, 2019 8:51 pm, edited 2 times in total.
- vnatale
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Re: American Eagle or Canadian Maple Leaf?
Yes. Confirmed. Level 4 offers the most diversification and the most safety. Level 1 offers the least. Level 1 takes far less time to set up than Level 4.
One can start all four investments at Level 1 and then gradually increase the level of each of the investments, one at a time or all at once.
Vinny
One can start all four investments at Level 1 and then gradually increase the level of each of the investments, one at a time or all at once.
Vinny
dualstow wrote: ↑Wed Oct 09, 2019 4:36 pm^ This ^
I have one maple leaf and it's beautiful. But, krugerrands and american eagles have other metals that harden the coin, and that's worth it for long term holders.
Vinnie, could you confirm that when you said "Level 4" investor you were referring to something in Craig and MT's book? (As Geaux Saints suggested in the other thread).
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
Re: American Eagle or Canadian Maple Leaf?
vnatale, you asked a question in another thread about tax. Are you familiar with the special tax treatment surrounding gold, and the arguments for or against holding gold in IRAs, Roth IRAs, or taxably? I would argue that there is no one size fits all strategy, that where you place your gold is an important part of your overall taxation strategy and how you plan to take distributions in retirement. This is why one argument is to place gold in all the places, to diversify it across different type of tax treatments. That's OK, but if you have a particular angle, you should pay attention to it.
My angles are:
1. I can use physical or ETF gold as a way to make a donation to my Church. Any capital gains vanish, and I don't pay cash to Church.
2. Gold might end up, over the rest of my life, being a really strongly performing asset. Therefore, I have put lots of my physical and ETF gold in Roth IRA form, so it won't get taxed at all, and it can be passed to my heirs. Home run potential assets to Roth
3. I will have low income years age 65-70, so I can take gold capital gains at that time
4. You can tax-loss harvest with taxable gold
Basically, I don't use Traditional IRAs for gold, because Traditional IRAs might end up with you being taxed at a higher rate for gold cap gains than just selling physical. The Collectibles tax caps you at 28%. That could be useful.
Journal of Accountancy:
"For tax purposes, physical gold investments are classified as collectibles. Gains on collectibles held for one year or less are taxed as ordinary income—the same tax treatment as short-term capital gains (STCGs). Gains on collectibles held more than one year are taxed as ordinary income, except the maximum collectibles tax rate is 28%"
STATE SALES TAXES ON GOLD… BAD!!! https://www.texmetals.com/sales-tax
Don’t live in a State which taxes gold if it’s impossible to drive to a tax-free State to pick up purchases
My angles are:
1. I can use physical or ETF gold as a way to make a donation to my Church. Any capital gains vanish, and I don't pay cash to Church.
2. Gold might end up, over the rest of my life, being a really strongly performing asset. Therefore, I have put lots of my physical and ETF gold in Roth IRA form, so it won't get taxed at all, and it can be passed to my heirs. Home run potential assets to Roth
3. I will have low income years age 65-70, so I can take gold capital gains at that time
4. You can tax-loss harvest with taxable gold
Basically, I don't use Traditional IRAs for gold, because Traditional IRAs might end up with you being taxed at a higher rate for gold cap gains than just selling physical. The Collectibles tax caps you at 28%. That could be useful.
Journal of Accountancy:
"For tax purposes, physical gold investments are classified as collectibles. Gains on collectibles held for one year or less are taxed as ordinary income—the same tax treatment as short-term capital gains (STCGs). Gains on collectibles held more than one year are taxed as ordinary income, except the maximum collectibles tax rate is 28%"
STATE SALES TAXES ON GOLD… BAD!!! https://www.texmetals.com/sales-tax
Don’t live in a State which taxes gold if it’s impossible to drive to a tax-free State to pick up purchases
Last edited by ochotona on Wed Oct 09, 2019 8:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: American Eagle or Canadian Maple Leaf?
I have some of both, but mostly American Eagles.
- vnatale
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Re: American Eagle or Canadian Maple Leaf?
Did you have any systematic way of apportioning? Like 75% of purchases of one and 25% for the other? Or, has it been more haphazard?
Thanks
Vinny
Thanks
Vinny
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
Re: American Eagle or Canadian Maple Leaf?
More haphazard than systematic, to be sure.
Bought mostly Eagles until one day I thought it would be cool to buy some other kinds and Maple Leafs were my choice.
Re: American Eagle or Canadian Maple Leaf?
I figure I should have enough ETF to do my first major rebalance when I hit the rebalance band. I have 75% physical. Beyond that there's no predicting.
- vnatale
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Re: American Eagle or Canadian Maple Leaf?
From what I have gathered you pay a premium on buying the Eagle but you also get a premium when you sell it. I've not yet acquired enough information to determine if they come out the same in the long run or buying and selling one or the other is superior.
Vinny
Vinny
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
- geaux saints
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Re: American Eagle or Canadian Maple Leaf?
If it were me, I would go with the lowest premium one ounce coin I could find. Better to take the lower premium now than hope for a higher one on resale.
Re: American Eagle or Canadian Maple Leaf?
I've looked at the buy / sell prices over a number of years over a number of dealers, and the Eagles are always the round-trip losers. That said, I probably will never buy another coin, and will be buying ETF AAAU in the future, now that there is no longer any commission to buy it.
Re: American Eagle or Canadian Maple Leaf?
I am so cheapMangoMan wrote: ↑Sat Oct 19, 2019 8:14 amLOL. There are plenty of cost benefits of ETFs over physical, but $4.95 commissions was not one that made any difference.ochotona wrote: ↑Fri Oct 18, 2019 9:30 pm I've looked at the buy / sell prices over a number of years over a number of dealers, and the Eagles are always the round-trip losers. That said, I probably will never buy another coin, and will be buying ETF AAAU in the future, now that there is no longer any commission to buy it.
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Re: American Eagle or Canadian Maple Leaf?
Really, Pug? It makes a difference to me. I don’t buy fractional coins because of the markup. Always one ounce. With gold ETFs, I wanted to dollar cost average, but paying $5 each time I buy, and for an instrument that doesn’t pay dividends, just doesn’t make sense to me.
With zero trading fees, I could spend less than the spot price (or more) total, and buy every week.
With zero trading fees, I could spend less than the spot price (or more) total, and buy every week.
Re: American Eagle or Canadian Maple Leaf?
Yeah, if AAAU existed while I was buying coins, I'd have bought a lot fewer coins. My buying wound down just as AAAU was launching. Can't do anything about that now. No further action until a rebalance band is hit, and I'm using the wide ones. It will be years before I do anything else with gold or gold ETFs.
- dualstow
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Re: American Eagle or Canadian Maple Leaf?
For sure.MangoMan wrote: ↑Sat Oct 19, 2019 2:42 pm ...
I agree that if you are making many small purchases those $5 dings add up, but consolidating to, say, once per quarter gives you DCA and costs $20/year and just doesn't compare to the costs of physical.
There are some advantages to physical over ETFs, but cost is not one of them.
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Re: American Eagle or Canadian Maple Leaf?
You have no concerns with AAAU's relative tiny size compared to the much larger EFTs ahead of it?ochotona wrote: ↑Fri Oct 18, 2019 9:30 pm I've looked at the buy / sell prices over a number of years over a number of dealers, and the Eagles are always the round-trip losers. That said, I probably will never buy another coin, and will be buying ETF AAAU in the future, now that there is no longer any commission to buy it.
Vinny
Last edited by vnatale on Wed Apr 22, 2020 9:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
Re: American Eagle or Canadian Maple Leaf?
ZERO concerns about size. ETFs that are destined for the woodchipper struggle to grown past $10-$20 million. AAAU has quickly grown to ten times that size.vnatale wrote: ↑Wed Apr 22, 2020 9:07 pmYou have no concerns with AAAU's relative tiny size compared to the much larger EFTs ahead of it?ochotona wrote: ↑Fri Oct 18, 2019 9:30 pm I've looked at the buy / sell prices over a number of years over a number of dealers, and the Eagles are always the round-trip losers. That said, I probably will never buy another coin, and will be buying ETF AAAU in the future, now that there is no longer any commission to buy it.
Vinny
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Re: American Eagle or Canadian Maple Leaf?
Are you saying it is in the $100 million to $200 million range? If so that seems super tiny in the financial world.ochotona wrote: ↑Thu Apr 23, 2020 2:47 pmZERO concerns about size. ETFs that are destined for the woodchipper struggle to grown past $10-$20 million. AAAU has quickly grown to ten times that size.vnatale wrote: ↑Wed Apr 22, 2020 9:07 pmYou have no concerns with AAAU's relative tiny size compared to the much larger EFTs ahead of it?ochotona wrote: ↑Fri Oct 18, 2019 9:30 pm I've looked at the buy / sell prices over a number of years over a number of dealers, and the Eagles are always the round-trip losers. That said, I probably will never buy another coin, and will be buying ETF AAAU in the future, now that there is no longer any commission to buy it.
Vinny
Vinny
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
Re: American Eagle or Canadian Maple Leaf?
Very good point on the forgeries. New maples are infinitely more difficult if not impossible to forge well. Its probably not economical. The design complexity, radial lines, and privy mark on the new ones make them unparalleled in the world i think for security.tomfoolery wrote: ↑Thu Apr 23, 2020 4:49 pm My problem with American Gold Eagles as compared to Maple Leaves is that it's a lot harder to forge a 99.9999% coin than a 93% coin. So, as counterfeit technology improves, we're likely to see more convincing counterfeit eagles than maple leaves.
I find putting maple leaves in $1 air-tite brand capsules to be sufficient to keep them from getting scratched.
The US mint is trying to catch up and adding security features in 2021.
I have a few maples and many many more eagles of various sizes, proofs etc.
I would still prefer eagles in the US for liquidity. If you buy from a reputable dealer you're fine and a good visual inspection and ping test if you're at an LCS and you're fine there too.
Maples are more beautiful but if you want a real sexy coin i don't think you can do better than a 2020 Britannia.