Trump as tragicomedy

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stuper1
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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by stuper1 » Wed Jul 24, 2019 7:05 pm

Well ... to give a couple obvious examples:

1. Trump (says he) wants to lower the immigration rate. For big business, the higher the immigration rate the better because it means more consumers and more cheap labor.

2. Trump (says he) wants to keep us out of more military conflicts. For big business, the more wars the better because each time we say shoot off a missile, that's another $1M in the pockets of some big defence contractor.

And then layer on top of that the quasi-religious aspect that WiseOne mentioned and things just get worse.
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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by Kriegsspiel » Wed Jul 24, 2019 7:11 pm

WiseOne wrote:
Wed Jul 24, 2019 6:13 pm
Yah, I don't think that what we're seeing in the mainstream press has a lot to do with business interests. Otherwise they'd be a lot more favorable to Trump.
How are you reaching that conclusion?
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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by WiseOne » Thu Jul 25, 2019 7:29 am

Kriegsspiel wrote:
Wed Jul 24, 2019 7:11 pm
WiseOne wrote:
Wed Jul 24, 2019 6:13 pm
Yah, I don't think that what we're seeing in the mainstream press has a lot to do with business interests. Otherwise they'd be a lot more favorable to Trump.
How are you reaching that conclusion?
Big corporate tax cut? Deregulation? Anti-union and minimum wage stance? HELLO???

Obviously not everything he does is aligned with big business interests: tariffs, anti global free trade, anti illegal immigration, price transparency in health care etc. But on balance, big business would be way worse off with Democrats running the show: proposals for new wealth tax, Medicare for all, increased taxes on "the rich" and corporations, increased regulation.
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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by Kriegsspiel » Thu Jul 25, 2019 7:47 am

WiseOne wrote:
Thu Jul 25, 2019 7:29 am
Kriegsspiel wrote:
Wed Jul 24, 2019 7:11 pm
WiseOne wrote:
Wed Jul 24, 2019 6:13 pm
Yah, I don't think that what we're seeing in the mainstream press has a lot to do with business interests. Otherwise they'd be a lot more favorable to Trump.
How are you reaching that conclusion?
Big corporate tax cut? Deregulation? Anti-union and minimum wage stance? HELLO???

Obviously not everything he does is aligned with big business interests: tariffs, anti global free trade, anti illegal immigration, price transparency in health care etc. But on balance, big business would be way worse off with Democrats running the show: proposals for new wealth tax, Medicare for all, increased taxes on "the rich" and corporations, increased regulation.
Ahh, I wasn't even thinking along those lines. I thought you meant they would write nicer things about him instead of writing hit pieces and taking advantage of the (perceived) Trumpbumps.
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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by vnatale » Sun Jan 26, 2020 9:44 pm

Cortopassi wrote:
Thu Aug 03, 2017 9:02 am
It has gone from hopeful to tragic for me. Sometimes funny, sure. The guy has a huge ego that seems to need to be stroked daily. I suppose I knew that, but now on full display, I regret that I had to make this choice.

I wish I had an opportunity to vote for Bernie.
You may well have that opportunity in November!

But, again, for me if it comes down to Bernie vs. Trump, I'm going with the best third party candidate available. I don't want either of those two!

After hearing Bloomberg speak today, I'd gladly choose him over those two. Just wish he wasn't so ancient!

Vinny
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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by vnatale » Sun Jan 26, 2020 9:55 pm

Mountaineer wrote:
Thu Aug 03, 2017 2:54 pm
Trump is certainly not my personal idea of a role model .... but, you know me, I place God's will above mans' sinful corrupted view of how things should be according to our fallen and cursed reason. To the best of my knowledge, Trump has not required us to go against any of God's Word. So:

LOVING YOUR NEIGHBOR
#16 Parents and other authority figures in church and society deserve love, respect, and obedience because God has set them over us as his representatives. In the event that they command us to do something contrary to God’s Word, then we must obey God and disobey their command.
#17 Secular governments are instituted by God to maintain peace and order on earth. Therefore Christians should always respect their leaders as God’s representatives and should pray for them. Christians may serve in government and may work to improve government.
To the best of your knowledge, did Obama require us to go against any of God's Word? If not, then did you obey the rest you posted?

I'm guessing that its 25% you say that Obama didn't, 75% you say he did. And, that in the subsequent 2 1/2 years since you wrote the above that it is 100% that you say that Trump still has not.

And, I acknowledge there is zero black and white in all of this. When it comes to Biblical interpretation there are all kinds of judgments and reasonable people differ on those judgments. If there were not these differences, then there would not have been be so many different Christian denominations that developed from the story of just one man's life (and his followers) as told in just one book (albeit with many chapters).

Vinny
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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by vnatale » Sun Jan 26, 2020 9:59 pm

I Shrugged wrote:
Thu Aug 03, 2017 6:08 pm
I call him The Accidental President.

I don't think he thought he would win anything. He hooked a whale and couldn't let go as it pulled him into the abyss. By this time he must be thinking what the hell did I do?

I can go along with it being tragicomedy, for sure.
If you stayed up all the way until 4 AM (as I did) on Election night and saw him come out to give his victory speech you would have seen that your first sentence was definitely true. You could clearly see that he himself was totally shocked that he'd actually won!

Vinny
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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by vnatale » Sun Jan 26, 2020 10:05 pm

jhogue wrote:
Fri Aug 04, 2017 10:19 am
Pointedstick,

Is Trump really the “de facto leader of conservative America”?

See Peggy Noonan’s column in last Saturday’s WSJ. Ronald Reagan’s most loyal speechwriter described Trump as “Woody Allen without the Humor.” She also scorched him for being a disgrace to American masculinity and unseemly in his remarks to the Boy Scouts. Can’t imagine her insisting (ala Reagan) that we just “Let Trump Be Trump!”

One possibility is that Trump will end up splitting the Republicans the way Teddy Roosevelt split the GOP between progressives and conservatives. The other is that this faux populist will fade into irrelevance and obscurity, like Jesse Ventura, the former pro wrestler who became governor of Minnesota in a 3-way contest against an unusually weak Democrat and an unappealing Republican.
I used to regularly hear Peggy Noonan on one of the Sunday news shows. During those shows she NEVER had ANTYING good to say about anyone who was a Democrat. So, was I shocked when I saw her as a regular this past Friday morning on MSNBC discussing the Impeachment Trial. NEVER thought I'd see Peggy Noonan rejecting anything Republican!

Vinny
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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by vnatale » Sun Jan 26, 2020 10:08 pm

MangoMan wrote:
Fri Aug 04, 2017 3:33 pm
Maddy wrote:
Pointedstick wrote:
jhogue wrote:Pointedstick,

Is Trump really the “de facto leader of conservative America”?
Half of it, at least.

What's been revealed is that the Peggy Noonans of the USA are the elites of a very different tribe of conservatives than the one that elected Donald Trump.
It's very hard to pigeonhole the tribe of conservatives that elected Donald Trump. For so many, the choice was about the lesser of two evils.
The basic problem, as I see it, is that there are only 2 parties, and probably more than half the country if not more don't completely like either one. You may agree with a few things from each side, but think the rest of the platform sucks. I am one of these people, so yeah, it often comes down to who I dislike less. A change to government with many parties could only be a good thing. One can dream...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sZfZ8uWaOFI

Vinny
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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by vnatale » Sun Jan 26, 2020 10:13 pm

moda0306 wrote:
Fri Dec 01, 2017 10:18 am
Kriegsspiel wrote:
moda0306 wrote:
Kriegsspiel wrote:Wild exaggeration? Hyperbole? Outright lying? No cost for being caught in a lie? Extreme spinning? Reality doesn't really matter?

Sounds like a politician to me.
So we should at the very least treat him no-better than one, right?
Sure. No better, no worse.
Certainly worse applies here. But even so, I'd be happy if I'd see conservatives treat Trump with the same disdain that they show "librul" politicians. It's obviously not about being a politician. Nor about lying or hyperbole. It's about virtue-signalling. It always has been with most folks.

So I'll feel free to treat him modestly worse if he's materially worse in said traits. Just like I would treat Kanye West or Kathy Griffin with disdain if liberals were dumb enough to put them in charge of the decision of how we wage war.

Conversely, if Rand Paul, Tulsi Gabbard, Jon Huntsman or Bernie Sanders were president (better than the average politician in those traits), I would probably treat them with more respect, even if I heavily criticize them.
At the time you'd written the above, I'd never heard of Tulsi Gabbard. But in the last year I've seen a fair about of her in the debates and, most of all, in long campaign events (via C-Span). And, each time I watch and hear her my reaction is that she seems so "presidential". In a good way. And, that's why she remains one of my four top Democratic choices (plus I'd add Patrick and Bloomberg to those four).

Vinny
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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by vnatale » Sun Jan 26, 2020 10:18 pm

Kriegsspiel wrote:
Sat Dec 02, 2017 5:18 pm
Maddy wrote: If the FBI appeared on your doorstep, announced that you were under federal criminal investigation, and asked you when your last bowel movement was, I do believe most people would lie.
Not me. I'd be so explicit, I'd make the FBI uncomfortable. I'd even throw a little tax law into it.

"Yes sir, lentils, and lot's of em. I call them LLCs, because they're a pass-through entity."
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You are definitely a Man of Wit! Although I have practically none I still appreciate those who exhibit as well as you did above.

Vinny
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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by vnatale » Sun Jan 26, 2020 10:29 pm

Libertarian666 wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 6:40 pm

Simonjester wrote:
Maddy wrote:
Libertarian666 wrote:

That's just the surface. Underneath they are frightened that he is going to dismantle the deep state.


I agree. If you go back through the last half-century of history, a clear pattern emerges. In one form or another, some boogy-man gets trotted out on cue (N Korea) with the purpose of distracting the masses and of instilling such fear, uncertainty, and/or disdain for the manufactured enemy that the people will line up in support of whatever course of action the oligarchy is proposing to protect them--whether it be war, martial law, bank bail-outs, or something else.
the trump hawkishness toward N Korea gives me reason to doubt the MIC deep state is really worried about trump. the regulatory deep state and the political establishment corruption/pervert deep state seem to have more to worry about... and thats a good thing even if it doesn't strike at the heart of this countries deep state problems..


North Korea seems to be a special case.

In general, I don't believe anything that the government tells me about other countries threatening us.

But this seems to be the real deal.


Two years later your current assessment of the North Korea threat to us?

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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by vnatale » Sun Jan 26, 2020 10:31 pm

dualstow wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2017 11:39 am
kriegsspiel wrote:LOL, yes. They wouldn't charge into our teeth like retards. Russia is not capable of invading and occupying the US like they did with Crimea
So no Red Dawn? O0
Am I correct in inferring from your comment above that you are /were also a fan of the movie? I must have seen it at least three times...

Vinny
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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by vnatale » Sun Jan 26, 2020 10:34 pm

Libertarian666 wrote:
Sat Dec 09, 2017 9:36 pm
Maddy wrote:
moda0306 wrote:Trump has no problem with the CIA, permanent war, gangster global capitalism, etc, as long as it's doing what he sees as being "in our interests" as they murder, torture, lie, steal, and secretly manipulate the public. He just wants to use these tools for less globalist aims. He's no enemy of the deep state. He just wants to use its power somewhat differently.
I'd be surprised if Trump fully understands, at this point, what the deep state is and what its objectives are. No doubt his learning curve has been steep, but he's had neither the time nor the experience to know what's really at stake, who's really running the show, and little information or control he has over anything. It may be that the oligarchy will, in the end, play him like a fiddle (as they have every president in recent history), but I think it's too early to brand him one way or another.
I think he understands exactly what the deep state is and what its objectives are.

If he can stay alive and avoid being railroaded out of office I believe he will go down as a great President.
He's just hit the 3/4's point of his first term. I don't even think I have to guess that you now already consider him to be a great President?

Vinny
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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by vnatale » Sun Jan 26, 2020 10:49 pm

Mountaineer wrote:
Wed Apr 25, 2018 6:27 am
In context |legal| the difference between pardon and commutation is that pardon is (legal) an order that releases a convicted criminal without further punishment, prevents future punishment, or (in some jurisdictions) removes an offense from a person's criminal record, as if it had never been committed while commutation is (legal) the change to a lesser penalty or punishment by the state.

Perhaps Trump believes that people can repent not only in the religious sense, but also in the civil sense.
You did use the word "perhaps" as a hedge....but what evidence do you have that Trump is religious in any way?

Vinny
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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by vnatale » Sun Jan 26, 2020 10:51 pm

Mountaineer wrote:
Fri Apr 27, 2018 6:20 am
Desert wrote:
Mountaineer wrote:In context |legal| the difference between pardon and commutation is that pardon is (legal) an order that releases a convicted criminal without further punishment, prevents future punishment, or (in some jurisdictions) removes an offense from a person's criminal record, as if it had never been committed while commutation is (legal) the change to a lesser penalty or punishment by the state.

Perhaps Trump believes that people can repent not only in the religious sense, but also in the civil sense.
I suppose that's possible, but I see no evidence of any religious belief on the part of Trump. I think in this case he's merely pandering to the neocon wing of the GOP. Remember, Trump himself stated that he's never needed to repent of anything.
Trump does not have to have any religious belief in order to pardon Scooter, nor does Trump need to believe that he, Trump, needs to repent - he needed to believe that Scooter had repented of his crimes in order for the pardon. None of this is necessarily true, just a possible reason for his action, just as pandering to the neocons is a possible reason.

However, I do believe that everyone, including Trump has a religion - Trump's is likely a religion with the gods of self, power and wealth at center stage. My hope is that Trump's actions align with the actions that are best for the United States - I could care less whether he believes in the stated gods or the real God (from his vocation as president perspective, not because he is a fellow child of God due all the care and respect all of us should give each other). From my perspective one cannot analyze the heart or motivation of another (that's God's role), only the actions taken, and I'll give Trump a pass on the petty stuff, it's the really important country preservation and growing stuff that I hope he acts appropriately upon. Also, I keep wondering whether Congress' obstruction of Trump, his nominees, and his agenda is a good thing or not; I tend to think Congress as a whole are lap dogs of the powerful far more so than Trump, but perhaps in this case obstruction and inaction could be the better course.

Further, as Mountaineer says while perched on his soapbox, I think the most important issue with long term very bad consequences that is facing our country is the divisiveness that has plagued us for the past couple of decades - in my mind it began with Clinton, gathered steam with GW, really got going with Obama, and is now even worse. I'm now climbing down from my soapbox and getting on with a cup of coffee knowing where my real hope comes from and what sustains me in times of gloom; current events are merely a bump in the road on the path to everlasting joy. :)
No need to answer my prior question as you more than fully answered here in this subsequent post.

Vinny
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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by vnatale » Sun Jan 26, 2020 10:53 pm

ochotona wrote:
Sat Apr 28, 2018 5:00 pm
clacy wrote:
ochotona wrote:
clacy wrote:Trump freed North Korea and defeated Isis in his first 18 month. I’m excited to see what the next two years bring.
Hopefully better spelling.
Is this what the anti-Trump argument has come to?
In a way, this is what the anti-Trump argument has been about all along. As you know, the election represented a clash between, on the one hand, those Whites and Asians who have tended to go to college (allied with Blacks, Native Americans, and most Hispanics, many of whom did not go to college), and on the other hand a cohort of less well educated Whites.

Those of us who consider ourselves better educated are appalled at how knowledge and learning have been thrown under the bus by this Administration across a broad range of fields, and since this is an investment board, I'll stick to finance topics. This Administration has been willfully ignorant or is just plain ignorant about the National Debt, and what the new Tax Law will do to our future, and most members of the so-called Party of Fiscal Responsibility have ripped off their clothes and have gleefully lept into the oily orgy with His Orangeness.

So yes, I do hope for a government which is not so ignorant, supported by an electorate which cares more about knowledge, learning and even spelling. Sorry if your typo was innocent. I've actually seen a lot of atrocious spelling emerging from Trump supporters on Twitter, and your error just set me off. There seem to be problems using the apostrophe. I see a lot of confusions between yours and your's, and your and you're.

By the way, before the 2016 election cycle, I was a consistently Republican voter, but I did not vote for Trump.
With you 100% in regards to your second paragraph....

Vinny
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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by vnatale » Sun Jan 26, 2020 10:56 pm

MangoMan wrote:
Sat Apr 28, 2018 6:53 pm
Sadly, spelling does not come with education. I also lurk on a message board for dentists, where the spelling and grammar is often atrocious.
I'd think that good spelling comes from two sources: 1) lots of reading 2) paying attention to detail.

That said, I'm appalled each time I go back to reread something I'd written here I see that almost every time I've typed at least one different word than the one that was in my mind.

Vinny
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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by vnatale » Sun Jan 26, 2020 11:02 pm

Xan wrote:
Mon Apr 30, 2018 8:57 pm
Gary has some "interesting" libertarian positions. Like that the baker should be forced to bake the homosexual cake. Audible gasps from the audience during the LP debate when he dropped that bombshell. Don't know how he still got the nomination. Says something about how crazy the other candidates were, I suppose. John McAfee was one.
I have a question in regards to your second sentence.

I assume that the law says that this is what should happen so that there is not bias against someone due to the person's sexual orientation?

However, I as an accountant will not do work for someone or an organization whose product I find objectional and a detriment to society. There are no laws against refusing to do work for someone on that basis?

Vinny
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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by vnatale » Sun Jan 26, 2020 11:08 pm

stuper1 wrote:
Wed May 02, 2018 8:20 pm
And yet the talk of impeachment continues unabated. The nation's so-called elite just can't get over the fact that somebody like Trump won the election. Frankly, I can't believe it either. It seems utterly surreal. And I'm one to believe he's not a monster, just another run-of-the-mill egomaniac, as I'm convinced anyone who would want to be president must be.

I was looking at an acquaintance's Facebook feed the other day. He's a very successful local businessman and apparently not a Trump hater. He has a big family and is not at all deranged. Back around the election time in 2016, he posted something which I found very interesting and read along these lines:

"To all the people out there who supported Obama and hate Trump, I have one question: what it is in Obama's life experience compared to Trump's life experience that makes you think that Obama was so much better qualified to be president than Trump?"
Just the minor facts that:

1) Had a much better education
2) Had a law degree
3) Had taught constitutional law
4) Held political office in Illinois
5) Had been a U.S. Senator
6) Reads books
7) Does his homework
8) Takes his responsibilities seriously
9) Practices a religion
10) Faithful husband
11) Excellent father


What were Trump's qualifications other than he is truly gifted in stirring up people's passions to absolutely love him?

Vinny
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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by vnatale » Sun Jan 26, 2020 11:11 pm

stuper1 wrote:
Thu May 03, 2018 12:31 pm
I've mentioned it before, but I'll do it again, because I thought it was striking. I came across some sort of thread on the internet (maybe Reddit) where it asked whether anyone had ever had any personal interactions with Trump. This thread was not on some right-wing website. If anything, I would have expected the people on that place to lean left.

Anywho, there were something like 100+ responses on that thread of people who had interacted somehow with the guy or knew someone who had been his housekeeper, etc. And something like 80% of the responses portrayed the guy to actually be relatively likable in person, and nothing I read made him seem to be a monster. Just because the media portrays someone as a monster doesn't mean that he actually is a monster. There is this thing called "spin".

For me, I don't really care about whether the president is likable or not (both for say Obama or Trump). All I care about is what their policies and actions are. So far, I haven't seen anything from Trump that seems unhinged.

The only position I've heard Trump take that I strongly disagree with is on torture of enemy combatants. That was my biggest complaint with Bush, although I really disagreed with most anything Bush did. I only hope that Trump's comments are just bluster. I certainly haven't seen any news reports that we've been torturing people lately.
Almost two years later you stick with that above statement?

Vinny
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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by vnatale » Sun Jan 26, 2020 11:20 pm

Mountaineer wrote:
Fri May 11, 2018 8:38 am
stuper1 wrote:
Thu May 10, 2018 2:29 pm
People always say to vote on policies not personalities. But then they often seem to do the opposite, or they can't see things from the other point of view because they are blinded by someone's charm or lack thereof.
I agree that we should vote on policies and not personalities. I must say that Trump does come across as sleazy to me (I'm not sure what the right word is for Trump - Sleazy? Crude? Used car salesman? Info-commercial actor? Obama makes me want to barf every time I hear him speak. Hillary makes me shudder. It is hard to describe that gut feeling that is evoked in me re. Trump, Obama, and Hillary to name a few) but Trump's accomplishments to date are better than I expected.

https://www.cnsnews.com/commentary/davi ... irrational
And, your reaction to when Obama's predecessor spoke? As I frequently said here, I don't think that Trump has yet done 10% of the damage to our country and the world that Obama's predecessor did. He was quite fortunate that social media did not really exist until after his presidency ended.

Vinny
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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by vnatale » Sun Jan 26, 2020 11:49 pm

MangoMan wrote:
Tue Jul 31, 2018 9:50 am
There is currently a lawsuit by the Attorneys General of 12(?) states to eliminate the pre-existing conditions clause of the ACA. Personally, while I think the ACA was a big, expensive lie and added thousands of needless regulations to healthcare, the elimination of pre-existing conditions was the one good thing to come out of it. But there is no doubt that this drives up the cost for everyone else. Socialism at its finest, and I hate Socialism, but it was a necessary evil.
I don't think you truly hate Socialism; you hate the current level of Socialism. Otherwise, if we were to eliminate ALL socialism wouldn't we have to get rid of all the following?

1) Police departments
2) Public schools
3) Departments of Public Works
4) Fire Departments
5) The Military

Am I missing any big ones?

To truly do without socialism doesn't that mean that each and every one of us would have to do it on our own? Protect ourselves both locally and from other nations? Teach our own children? Build our own highways (somehow!). Put out our own fires? And, on and on and on.

I think you'd agree that SOME socialism IS necessary. The disagreement comes as to what degree is necessary.

Vinny
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
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vnatale
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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by vnatale » Sun Jan 26, 2020 11:54 pm

Xan wrote:
Tue Jul 31, 2018 10:43 am
I've found that insurance other than catastrophic is largely a joke. They claim to save you a lot of money, but when you go self-pay, you save that money anyway, often more.

A family member told me recently that his son needed an elbow popped back in. He paid the hospital some $350 at the time of service while they figured out what the bill would be. The bill was $3200 or so (highway robbery), but their policy is that self-pay patients get 90% off. NINETY PERCENT. So the hospital now owes him $30.

Insurance is useful in case we get cancer or something and rack up millions of dollars in bills. Other than that, self-pay is much better all the way around. I really don't know why they killed catastrophic insurance: it's the only useful kind.
That has been the opposite for me. Until just recently I never had any eyes coverage. So each year when I went for my eye exam (including contact lens which was extra) I paid $175. I am almost certain that where I go to gets paid significantly less for the same services when an insurance company is paying.

It's been my general understanding that it is the uninsured, self-paying who always get the largest bills while those bills which get paid by insurance are greatly discounted. I believe the discount is in the 1/3 range.

Vinny
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
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vnatale
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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by vnatale » Sun Jan 26, 2020 11:57 pm

Xan wrote:
Tue Jul 31, 2018 11:51 am
MangoMan wrote:
Tue Jul 31, 2018 10:49 am
Xan wrote:
Tue Jul 31, 2018 10:43 am


Insurance is useful in case we get cancer or something and rack up millions of dollars in bills. Other than that, self-pay is much better all the way around. I really don't know why they killed catastrophic insurance: it's the only useful kind.
Probably because most people aren't members of this forum or MMM or whatever. You and I could self-insure a minor hospital surgical procedure or colonoscopy, but none of my employees, their friends, or family members could.
Even if their insurance premiums were greatly reduced?

Maybe that's the part I'm missing: these people all have insurance provided by their employer, and I never have. Having employers provide insurance is one of the worst all-round parts of this whole mess.
Do you know how employer provided insurance originated?

I've been paying 100% of my health insurance costs for 26 years and know that there is also a disparity in the tax treatment of having employer provided tax insurance compared to paying it 100% on your own.

Vinny
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
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