BYND

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Xan
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Re: BYND

Post by Xan » Wed Jun 12, 2019 3:50 pm

pmward wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 3:46 pm
Cortopassi wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 3:18 pm
pmward,

I respectfully disagree. Calories are not equal. But that's fine. My study is myself and how my body does better when it has less carbs. I assume the studies you are reading don't have conflicts of interest. So many do.
A calorie is 4.184 joules of energy. Whether that calorie is from fat or carb makes 0 difference it is still 4.184 joules. Therefore, 4.184 joules of energy burned will burn said calorie. A gram of fat has 9 calories and a gram of carb or protein has 4 calories. Please do some research. There is plenty of unbiased research out there and it is quite conclusive. It's a math equation. 3-2 can never equal 3, 3-2 always HAS to equal 1. You can respectfully disagree and say 3-2=3 all you want, but it doesn't make it any more true.
Again, you're assuming which is the independent variable and which is the dependent variable. You're saying weightgain = caloriesin - caloriesout. Isn't it also possible that caloriesout = caloriesin - weightgain?
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Re: BYND

Post by pmward » Wed Jun 12, 2019 4:57 pm

Xan wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 3:50 pm
pmward wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 3:46 pm
Cortopassi wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 3:18 pm
pmward,

I respectfully disagree. Calories are not equal. But that's fine. My study is myself and how my body does better when it has less carbs. I assume the studies you are reading don't have conflicts of interest. So many do.
A calorie is 4.184 joules of energy. Whether that calorie is from fat or carb makes 0 difference it is still 4.184 joules. Therefore, 4.184 joules of energy burned will burn said calorie. A gram of fat has 9 calories and a gram of carb or protein has 4 calories. Please do some research. There is plenty of unbiased research out there and it is quite conclusive. It's a math equation. 3-2 can never equal 3, 3-2 always HAS to equal 1. You can respectfully disagree and say 3-2=3 all you want, but it doesn't make it any more true.
Again, you're assuming which is the independent variable and which is the dependent variable. You're saying weightgain = caloriesin - caloriesout. Isn't it also possible that caloriesout = caloriesin - weightgain?

No I've been saying the whole time that calories in and calories out factor into weight change. The correct formula though isn't necessarily to weight gain though, it would have to specifically be tailored to body fat change and body fat change is a derivative of whether or not there is a net surplus or deficit of calories. So it would be calories in - calories out = calories stored as the correct equation. Likewise calories in - calories stored = calories out. The equation to find fat lb gained can be attained by the fact that there are 3500 calories in 1lb of fat.

The only difference between the macros is the thermal effect of food (TEF) which is the amount of calories it takes to break a food down. Foods higher in protein and fiber (by the way fiber is a carb) have a higher TEF. There are also some chemistry processes that burn extra energy. This is what I was alluding to earlier when I was stating that it's less efficient to store carb as it is to store fat. Likewise, fructose in fruits requires more processing than a regular carb to turn it into usable form which burns some of the calories. But I digress. That can be quite the rabbit hole in and of itself that I would rather not have to type out the specifics to.
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Re: BYND

Post by Xan » Wed Jun 12, 2019 5:06 pm

pmward wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 4:57 pm
body fat change is a derivative of whether or not there is a net surplus or deficit of calories.
You're begging the question again. Is body fat change a DERIVATIVE of there being a surplus of calories, or is there a surplus of calories (which then get burned during daily activity) depending whether the body already has enough calories to reach its target weight?

Would you say that your body temperature is a derivative of whether or not you've absorbed more heat than you've put out over the course of the day?
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Re: BYND

Post by pmward » Wed Jun 12, 2019 5:19 pm

Xan wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 5:06 pm
pmward wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 4:57 pm
body fat change is a derivative of whether or not there is a net surplus or deficit of calories.
You're begging the question again. Is body fat change a DERIVATIVE of there being a surplus of calories, or is there a surplus of calories (which then get burned during daily activity) depending whether the body already has enough calories to reach its target weight?

Would you say that your body temperature is a derivative of whether or not you've absorbed more heat than you've put out over the course of the day?
You're alluding to metabolism, and yes metabolism does have an obvious part to play. Some people's bodies will burn extra calories through thermogenesis and other metabolic functions better than others. Your body burns calories to generate body heat in thermogenesis. So if you "absorb more heat" by eating more calories than your body uses then your body will store those calories as fat. At the end of the day the calories are still being burned in these metabolic processes so it doesn't change the equation any. And if you weight the same person every day, and measure everything they eat, and compare the results you can find a good ballpark of what their maintenance calories are and then tailor a diet so that they lose weight based on that number. Obviously, human beings are a living organism and we are not static, things are always changing so yesterdays metabolism is not todays metabolism; activity levels change, people in a surplus tend to fidget more than people in a deficit (which burns calories), immune system changes amounts burned based on how active it needs to be, etc, etc so it's very complex. But at the end of the day, the amount of calories consumed minus the amount of calories burned (regardless how those calories are burned) equals the calories stored.
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Re: BYND

Post by pmward » Wed Jun 12, 2019 5:29 pm

MangoMan wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 5:19 pm
I think we have discussed this topic before. I think everyone's body is different and perhaps responds better to certain types of food. But I tend to agree with pmward here, and nutrition used to be my hobby. Corto, you have met me IRL and know that I am not overweight. I eat tons of carbs, mostly whole grains, but plenty of refined stuff, too. As long as I maintain my activity level and don't consume too many total calories, it doesn't seem to matter*. If I cut out carbs, I feel like crap.


*The exception seems to be craft beer. It definitely makes my midsection grow, so I only allow myself an occasional treat of IPA.
Yeah, I'm the same. I eat a healthy balanced diet with a decent amount of carbs and am on the leaner side. I also "feel like crap" if I eat too little carbs, but I live a very active lifestyle and that probably has a lot to do with it. Carbs = life when you're active, haha. I've also lost weight purposefully before on a high carb diet just to prove it could be done in a debate with a friend, haha. But I do agree that different people "feel better" when they eat more or less of certain foods. And that's cool. Like I said above, I have nothing against the keto diet if it fits someones lifestyle. I only have something against the people who say it's superior to other diet solutions from a weight loss perspective. If someone feels better when they eat low carb, or if that fits their lifestyle or palate, or if they just generally can comply with the diet better than other solutions: have at it, imo. I'm all for anything that works for someone.

The problem comes in where a lot of people these days think the only way to lose weight is to eat low or no carb. Then they try, feel like crap, relapse, and repeat that process over and over getting nowhere in the process. Not to mention the mental guilt and shame that it breeds if someone fails to comply with their carb restrictions can cause some unhealthy mental side effects. This especially considering that when someone has not eaten carbs in awhile their muscles are depleted of glycogen. When they binge on carbs they will have a spike on the scale the next day because of extra glycogen storage in the muscles. This isn't necessarily a bad thing, glycogen is a good thing, but it sure feels punishing for the person at the time to see the scale go up 1-2lb overnight like that after "failing". Whereas, if they ate a different calorie equated diet that they could comply with they would have actually made real progress. I would argue the mental game is the most important variable in dieting and fitness. As fun as it is to debate these things, they are all secondary to that.
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Re: BYND

Post by Kriegsspiel » Wed Jun 12, 2019 6:30 pm

I'm in the "find what works for you" camp. You need to eat sufficient protein, essential fatty acids, and vitamins/minerals, but outside of that you can make up the rest of your food however you want.
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Re: BYND

Post by boglerdude » Thu Jun 13, 2019 2:33 am

> But at the end of the day, the amount of calories consumed minus the amount of calories burned (regardless how those calories are burned) equals the calories stored.

With some foods you excrete more calories. I try to eat mostly fiber and protein
https://www.bmj.com/rapid-response/2011 ... -excretion

More on topic, Meatless Future or Vegan Delusions? The Beyond Meat Valuation
http://aswathdamodaran.blogspot.com/201 ... sions.html
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Re: BYND

Post by dualstow » Thu Jun 13, 2019 6:21 am

We knew this was coming as it’s been in the earliest BYND articles, but Tyson Foods is introducing its own meatless meat now.

They used to own a stake in either Impossible or Beyond, and sold it when they decided to develop their own product.

Tastes like chicken!
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Re: BYND

Post by Cortopassi » Thu Jun 13, 2019 9:00 am

I think I was mentally going down a different track. I agree, eat what makes you feel good and doesn't metabolically screw you up or make you go to an unhealthy weight. I do like my carbs, but there's no doubt once I've gone through the 3-5 days of sluggishness starting one of my lo-carb attempts, I always have felt better from that point on. And as a byproduct, I have lost weight. But like a drug, I always get tempted off lo-carb.

My argument is with the 50 years of demonizing certain foods (sat fat, eggs, meat) and pushing low fat, higher in sugar and carb substitutes. I think (maybe??) we can all agree that was a mistake that has had decades-long ramifications for the health of people in this country.

Can we agree that too much sugar is bad? Forces the overproduction of insulin which makes your body want to store it as fat? And that any carb consumed eventually becomes sugar in the body? Higher carb consumption by typical sedentary Americans leads to more diabetes?

If you can agree with this, the issues I have is how on earth can this clip I show below be happening? There is a disconnect somewhere and I don't know if it is malicious or ill-informed or what.

https://www.fathead-movie.com/index.php ... diabetics/

A clip:

Image
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Re: BYND

Post by pmward » Thu Jun 13, 2019 9:44 am

Cortopassi wrote:
Thu Jun 13, 2019 9:00 am
I think I was mentally going down a different track. I agree, eat what makes you feel good and doesn't metabolically screw you up or make you go to an unhealthy weight. I do like my carbs, but there's no doubt once I've gone through the 3-5 days of sluggishness starting one of my lo-carb attempts, I always have felt better from that point on. And as a byproduct, I have lost weight. But like a drug, I always get tempted off lo-carb.

My argument is with the 50 years of demonizing certain foods (sat fat, eggs, meat) and pushing low fat, higher in sugar and carb substitutes. I think (maybe??) we can all agree that was a mistake that has had decades-long ramifications for the health of people in this country.

Can we agree that too much sugar is bad? Forces the overproduction of insulin which makes your body want to store it as fat? And that any carb consumed eventually becomes sugar in the body? Higher carb consumption by typical sedentary Americans leads to more diabetes?

If you can agree with this, the issues I have is how on earth can this clip I show below be happening? There is a disconnect somewhere and I don't know if it is malicious or ill-informed or what.
Yes I do mostly agree with all the above. I could nitpick a couple things from a technical aspect (like the storing fat thing, as even if the body stores energy as fat temporarily it still gets burned through activity and metabolic processes so the rule of calories in - calories out = net storage at the end of the day still applies) but on the whole I agree with the general sentiment. The American diet is high calorie, high fat (especially saturated fats), high simple sugar, lots of liquid calories, low micro nutritional content, low fiber, low variation, lots of processed foods, lots of man made chemicals, lots of booze, etc. There's a whole lot of room for improvement for the average American. I am definitely in support of anything that gets someone to make dietary improvements. Joining the keto cult may provide the motivation for some to improve their diet, or at least put some conscious thought into what they are putting in their body, and that's definitely a very good thing. So while it's not my personal diet of choice, and when I help family or friends out with diet plans I don't recommend keto to them unless they are already gung ho about it, I think it does have a place. I just take issue with some of the misinformation that bloggers, businesses, and the media put out about it in the name of generating revenue.
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Re: BYND

Post by anato » Thu Jun 13, 2019 4:56 pm

A couple of years back I spent an interesting night at a dinner party listening to a micro-biology researcher who'd been studying gut bacteria for years (first time I heard about poop transplant), and that turns out to be pretty much as important as what you eat to influence how much fat you store, by working on this or that nutrient and help your body metabolize it.
So there are people who can eat bacon&eggs 5 times a day and be as lean as a stick, and people who get overweight just by looking at a beer.

The poop transplant was particularly interesting: lean people who got poop from fat donors started putting up weight, keeping the same diet, and viceversa. He then went wild talking about future applications in which they could analyze a stool sample and come out with a personalized diet for anybody.

So that's another big argument for just finding whichever diet works for you (or your gut bacteria), with enough of all nutrients, and just be happy with it :)
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Re: BYND

Post by pmward » Thu Jun 13, 2019 5:10 pm

anato wrote:
Thu Jun 13, 2019 4:56 pm
A couple of years back I spent an interesting night at a dinner party listening to a micro-biology researcher who'd been studying gut bacteria for years (first time I heard about poop transplant), and that turns out to be pretty much as important as what you eat to influence how much fat you store, by working on this or that nutrient and help your body metabolize it.
So there are people who can eat bacon&eggs 5 times a day and be as lean as a stick, and people who get overweight just by looking at a beer.

The poop transplant was particularly interesting: lean people who got poop from fat donors started putting up weight, keeping the same diet, and viceversa. He then went wild talking about future applications in which they could analyze a stool sample and come out with a personalized diet for anybody.

So that's another big argument for just finding whichever diet works for you (or your gut bacteria), with enough of all nutrients, and just be happy with it :)
There is indeed a lot interesting in that as well. The effects of antibiotics on gut health particularly. People don't realize that your gut bacteria manufacture a lot of the hormones that regulate your body. So yeah, if those get out of whack all kinds of nasty side effects can happen that effect every system in the body. Most people don't need to go to the extreme of a transplant though, simply eating more vegetables (veggies are a "pre-biotic") and not taking antibiotics unless it's absolutely necessary is good enough for most people. Aside from that, eating some fermented foods like yogurt, sauerkraut, bubbies pickles, etc can definitely help as well. I'm not so sure I would recommend the over the counter lab created probiotics though. They are way over priced and not as strong as healthier natural bacteria in fermented foods. 2 tbsp of home fermented sauerkraut which costs 10 cents contain more probiotics than an entire 30 day supply bottle of even the most potent probiotic blends out there that can cost anywhere from $30-100. So there's no need to get crazy here either. Just simply eat more veggies, occasionally eat some fermented foods, and avoid antibiotics unless you have an actual infection that warrants them.
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Re: BYND

Post by flyingpylon » Thu Jun 13, 2019 6:43 pm

pmward wrote:
Thu Jun 13, 2019 5:10 pm
Aside from that, eating some fermented foods like yogurt, sauerkraut, bubbies pickles, etc can definitely help as well.
+1 on Bubbies sauerkraut and pickles. If the only sauerkraut you've had is the pasteurized, non-refrigerated stuff found on grocery store shelves, you're missing out. It's not cheap considering it's just cabbage, water and salt but it sure is tasty. I used to love their bread & butter pickles too but my local store no longer sells them.
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Re: BYND

Post by pmward » Thu Jun 13, 2019 7:33 pm

flyingpylon wrote:
Thu Jun 13, 2019 6:43 pm
pmward wrote:
Thu Jun 13, 2019 5:10 pm
Aside from that, eating some fermented foods like yogurt, sauerkraut, bubbies pickles, etc can definitely help as well.
+1 on Bubbies sauerkraut and pickles. If the only sauerkraut you've had is the pasteurized, non-refrigerated stuff found on grocery store shelves, you're missing out. It's not cheap considering it's just cabbage, water and salt but it sure is tasty. I used to love their bread & butter pickles too but my local store no longer sells them.
Yes I'm polish so I grew up with my grandma, who lived on a farm, always making home fermented sauerkraut and pickles with freshly picked vegetables. It was a staple in her house and I loved it so every time I would go visit she would send me home with jars of the stuff. So I was spoiled growing up and as such I've never liked the grocery store stuff. All it is is cabbage or cucumbers in vinegar. It's a completely different thing. Bubbies, while still not as good as my grandma's, do pass the pollack test, haha.
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Re: BYND

Post by dualstow » Wed Jun 19, 2019 11:27 am

I love sauerkraut as well. Polish grandmother, but she’s not the source.

Short squeeze - https://finance.yahoo.com/news/beyond-m ... 27573.html
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Re: BYND

Post by Cortopassi » Wed Jun 19, 2019 2:05 pm

For people who are thinking meatless is the right choice, from market-ticker.org:
------------------------------------------
You gotta be kidding me.

Beyond Meat is, basically, pea protein (ok) and both coconut and canola oils.

Let's start with the pea protein. It's a complete protein (meaning all nine essential amino acids are in it) however one is deficient -- present, but very low (methionine.) Therefore it should not be your only protein source; that imbalance can be significant over time. If you're attempting to use this product as a meat replacement and otherwise eschew meat, that could be very bad news. If it's coupled with other meat sources, not so much, but then why use this garbage at all? Ok, enough with the pea protein since in general it's mostly-ok.

Canola oil, on the other hand, while not nearly as nasty as corn oil is still a vegetable oil product. The primary concern for all vegetable oils is that they are full of PUFA -- polyunsaturated fatty acids. There are two primary ones; Omega-3 and Omega-6.

Omega 3 is generally good and 6 bad. However, absolute quantity matters. Omega 6 tends to be very high in western diets, and it's implicated in inflammation and other systemic problems -- including metabolic disease (e.g. diabetes and related issues.) Never mind that the Omega 3 from plant sources -- including canola -- is almost-always worthless as it's ALA, which is nearly-impossible for the body to convert into DHA and EPA. The latter two are beneficial in your diet but are not found in vegetable sources; the former is not harmful but also not beneficial. So you get the Omega 6 without the benefit of the Omega 3. Meh.

As I have said repeatedly the amount of PUFAs you should ingest "neat", that is, not from consumption of actual raw vegetable sources, is zero.

Coconut oil is of course from a nut, not a vegetable. It has a lot of saturated fat in it, but you won't find me on the bandwagon that says that's bad. The evidence says the opposite. The bigger problem with all vegetable and nut oils is that they get materially worse when heated, and of course nobody heats the meat in a burger say, on a grill -- right?

Then there's "yeast extract"; the better name for this is MSG, but we don't want to call it that. Why not? Because plenty of people avoid MSG. I'm not on that particular bandwagon but some are, and guess what -- it's in there.

Then there's carrageenan. I'm not sold on the science here, but this is again one of those why **** with that sort of ingredient. It's used as a thickener and preservative and is widely found in processed foods. The problem? It's linked to all sorts of intestinal issues, some of them very nasty (like colon cancer!)

The issue is that when the substance (which is found in red seaweed) is processed with acids it degrades and the degraded form is a known problem. In fact the degraded form cannot be used in foods for this reason. Guess what's in your stomach? Uh huh -- powerful acids. While this stuff has been used as a food additive for a long time so have hydrogenated vegetable oils and we know what the science says on that after decades of lying about the "health benefits" of such oils.

Want to eat a chemistry set? Be my guest.

Hard pass here; I'll take the cow thank you very little.
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Re: BYND

Post by dualstow » Wed Jun 19, 2019 2:38 pm

(Corto)Want to eat a chemistry set?
Nah, just want to hold the stock, though I do partake
now and then to give the cows a break.
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Re: BYND

Post by Cortopassi » Wed Jul 03, 2019 9:17 am

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Re: BYND

Post by Kriegsspiel » Wed Jul 03, 2019 10:38 am

Cortopassi wrote:
Wed Jul 03, 2019 9:17 am
More on Keto:

https://www.militarytimes.com/news/your ... rformance/
I saw that, what a dumb fucking idea. ::)

SOCOM's science and technology director isn't even right about it.
The diet works to deprive the body of glucose needed for energy and forces it to burn stored fats instead.
Not exactly. You burn the fat you eat. If you don't eat enough, THEN you burn bodyfat. The same thing happens when you don't eat enough of a high carb diet too; people have been losing fat eating oatmeal and rice since forever.
For the keto nutritional plan to be successful, it has to be followed strictly, and that includes after-hours and weekends. Even a service member on leave would possibly face a restricted diet because it simply takes too long for the body to readjust and function in the ketosis stage after a weekend of dietary backsliding and binging on pizza, burritos, and beers.
No it doesn't. She's literally describing the Anabolic Diet, one of several cyclical ketogenic diets that bodybuilders have used for decades to lose fat. Testing positive for ketones is irrelevant to anything except being able to say "I'm in ketosis." In addition, the longer you do a keto diet, the quicker you get back into ketosis (you test positive for ketones quicker). But again, testing positive on a keto strip doesn't mean anything meaningful, unless you're epileptic, so who cares.
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Re: BYND

Post by sophie » Wed Jul 03, 2019 11:26 am

Cortopassi wrote:
Thu Jun 13, 2019 9:00 am
My argument is with the 50 years of demonizing certain foods (sat fat, eggs, meat) and pushing low fat, higher in sugar and carb substitutes. I think (maybe??) we can all agree that was a mistake that has had decades-long ramifications for the health of people in this country.

Can we agree that too much sugar is bad? Forces the overproduction of insulin which makes your body want to store it as fat? And that any carb consumed eventually becomes sugar in the body? Higher carb consumption by typical sedentary Americans leads to more diabetes?

If you can agree with this, the issues I have is how on earth can this clip I show below be happening? There is a disconnect somewhere and I don't know if it is malicious or ill-informed or what.

https://www.fathead-movie.com/index.php ... diabetics/

(clip deleted - examples of hospital diabetic diets with 50-75mg carbohydrates per day including a lot of simple sugars.)
The diabetic diet examples you posted strike me as insane too!! My uncle recently went into the hospital for reasons unrelated to his diabetes, and we could not figure out why his blood glucose levels, normally perfectly stable at home, were suddenly in the 300s. Guess I now know why. I am also amazed that dietary science has lagged current research so badly, remaining focused on low fat with no real concern about sugar apart from the empty calories issue.

Agree with what you state above except for the bolded statement. It matters a lot if there is fiber present along with the carbohydrates. White rice, fruit juice, white bread, and breakfast cereals are metabolized pretty much exactly like sugar. Brown rice. whole fruits and vegetables, and high fiber breads I'd expect to metabolize slowly enough that the calories can be used to power the Kreb cycle or be stored as glycogen - assuming you don't eat a huge amount of them.

I know quite a few people in my medical field who have tried keto for weight loss, and it really does work but you have to put a lot of effort into calculating daily carbohydrates. I'm thinking of trying it for a few months myself to knock off a few unwanted pounds, but I would definitely not want to eat that way consistently. For me anyway the diet doesn't include enough fiber so a supplement is needed, and that's not optimal from my POV.

Fiber, "prebiotics", and the gut microbiome are an interesting new area that also will need to be integrated into dietary recommendations eventually.
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Re: BYND

Post by dualstow » Wed Jul 03, 2019 11:38 am

You all keep faking me out. I keep getting notifications for this thread, thinking someone has something to say about BYND. Grrr
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Re: BYND

Post by dualstow » Wed Jul 03, 2019 1:05 pm

MangoMan wrote:
Wed Jul 03, 2019 11:56 am
dualstow wrote:
Wed Jul 03, 2019 11:38 am
You all keep faking me out. I keep getting notifications for this thread, thinking someone has something to say about BYND. Grrr
Here you go: I had my second round of the Bburgers last weekend, and although good, I'm definitely sticking to Aldi's organic grass-fed beef burgers. From freezer to grill without thawing, cooks in minutes and delicious. Or their packaged 93/7 ground turkey also makes a tasty burger.
Good to know, and I think we have an Aldi's somewhere around here, but it's privately owned! 😩 Some German family. Like Trader Joe's.
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Re: BYND

Post by sophie » Wed Jul 03, 2019 9:01 pm

MangoMan wrote:
Wed Jul 03, 2019 12:01 pm
I've been trying to drop 5 lbs from my middle for months. South Beach Diet, etc work for week, but too hard to stick to and the weight loss is temporary. The solution I found is playing pickleball for 2-3 hours, 4-5 days a week. I have always exercised daily, but not for that many hours. I'm sure long distance jogging would do the same. Semi-retirement is awesome!
Retirement as a weight loss technique? Sounds great!

Sorry about your derailed thread dualstow!
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Re: BYND

Post by dualstow » Thu Jul 04, 2019 9:10 am

I’ll live. O0
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Re: BYND

Post by Ad Orientem » Tue Jul 23, 2019 1:18 pm

ochotona wrote:
Tue May 07, 2019 1:07 pm
Argentines think chicken is not meat
I may consider moving there... at least for Lent.
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