The Green New Deal

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Re: The Green New Deal

Post by Cortopassi » Tue Feb 12, 2019 3:47 pm

Duh. All I saw was Ground. Engineer in me.
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Re: The Green New Deal

Post by dualstow » Tue Feb 12, 2019 4:29 pm

Cortopassi wrote:
Tue Feb 12, 2019 3:47 pm
Duh. All I saw was Ground. Engineer in me.
O0 Took me a while, too. I spend more time trying to figure out abbreviations than reading posts, sometimes. And this one is the title of the thread!
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Re: The Green New Deal

Post by Mountaineer » Wed Feb 13, 2019 4:47 am

Darn TLAs! ;)
DNA has its own language (code), and language requires intelligence. There is no known mechanism by which matter can give birth to information, let alone language. It is unreasonable to believe the world could have happened by chance.
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Re: The Green New Deal

Post by Kriegsspiel » Wed Feb 13, 2019 7:02 pm

You there, Ephialtes. May you live forever.
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Re: The Green New Deal

Post by jacksonM » Fri Feb 15, 2019 4:29 pm

Libertarian666 wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 6:09 pm
Fortunately there is no chance these insane proposals will be enacted.
I'm assuming that every one of these proposals will eventually be enacted in one form or another and it's only a matter of time. Do you have any evidence of failed socialist proposals to refute my belief? I don't mean that they don't work but that they eventually win their day in the sun, regardless of the harm they do.
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Re: The Green New Deal

Post by Libertarian666 » Fri Feb 15, 2019 11:30 pm

jacksonM wrote:
Fri Feb 15, 2019 4:29 pm
Libertarian666 wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 6:09 pm
Fortunately there is no chance these insane proposals will be enacted.
I'm assuming that every one of these proposals will eventually be enacted in one form or another and it's only a matter of time. Do you have any evidence of failed socialist proposals to refute my belief? I don't mean that they don't work but that they eventually win their day in the sun, regardless of the harm they do.
I should have said that they won't be enacted any time soon.
Farther out, some of them may be enacted.
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Re: The Green New Deal

Post by dualstow » Tue Feb 26, 2019 8:08 pm

Well I don’t know about you all, but I am very excited about this new California bullet train which will keep a lot of planes out of the sky.
I just hope nothing goes wrong! :P
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Re: The Green New Deal

Post by jacksonM » Wed Feb 27, 2019 3:06 pm

I'm sure that most of the Dems supporting the GND (are there any who aren't) are doing so because they have studied the science themselves and reasonably concluded that it truly is, as they say, an "existential crisis". AOC, being probably the most recent college graduate among them, was surely well-schooled on this subject the same as she was in economics.

Sarcasm intended.
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Re: The Green New Deal

Post by Libertarian666 » Wed Feb 27, 2019 3:21 pm

jacksonM wrote:
Wed Feb 27, 2019 3:06 pm
I'm sure that most of the Dems supporting the GND (are there any who aren't) are doing so because they have studied the science themselves and reasonably concluded that it truly is, as they say, an "existential crisis". AOC, being probably the most recent college graduate among them, was surely well-schooled on this subject the same as she was in economics.

Sarcasm intended.
Whew, for a minute there I was afraid you were serious!

But you are right that she does know just as much about climate science as she does about economics.

0 = 0.
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Re: The Green New Deal

Post by Kriegsspiel » Wed Feb 27, 2019 4:26 pm

I believe she was an international studies major with an economics track (a couple classes), not an economics major. Unverified.
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Re: The Green New Deal

Post by jacksonM » Wed Feb 27, 2019 4:55 pm

Kriegsspiel wrote:
Wed Feb 27, 2019 4:26 pm
I believe she was an international studies major with an economics track (a couple classes), not an economics major. Unverified.
From Wikipedia
Ocasio-Cortez attended Yorktown High School, graduating in 2007.[20] She came second in the Microbiology category of the Intel International Science and Engineering Fair with a microbiology research project on the effect of antioxidants on the lifespan of the nematode C. elegans.[21] In a show of appreciation for her efforts, the International Astronomical Union named a small asteroid after her: 23238 Ocasio-Cortez.[22][23] In high school, she took part in the National Hispanic Institute's Lorenzo de Zavala (LDZ) Youth Legislative Session. She later became the LDZ Secretary of State while she attended Boston University. Ocasio-Cortez had a John F. Lopez Fellowship.[24] In 2008, while Ocasio-Cortez was a sophomore at Boston University, her father died of lung cancer.[25][26] During college, she served as an intern in the immigration office during the final year of U.S. Senator Ted Kennedy's tenure.[27] "I was the only Spanish speaker, and as a result, as basically a kid—a 19-, 20-year-old kid—whenever a frantic call would come into the office because someone is looking for their husband because they have been snatched off the street by ICE, I was the one that had to pick up that phone," Ocasio-Cortez said. "I was the one that had to help that person navigate that system."[27]

She graduated cum laude from Boston University's College of Arts and Sciences in 2011, majoring in international relations and economics.[24][28][29]
I'm assuming that she was the author of most of this Wikipedia entry.

I have no clue what "nematode C. elegans" are. Maybe WiseOne can enlighten us. Sounds pretty impressive for a high school student even if she did only come in second.

It says that she majored in economics at Boston University but what I wonder about mostly is where was it that she observed that most Americans are working three jobs and living in cars (yes, I heard her say that)? I don't know about you but I don't see anything like that in my neighborhood or anywhere close to it.
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Re: The Green New Deal

Post by dualstow » Wed Feb 27, 2019 6:51 pm

nematodes are tiny worms. C is a genus abbrev. and elegans is the species. I think.
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Re: The Green New Deal

Post by dualstow » Wed Feb 27, 2019 8:16 pm

She wormed her way into the Senate. O0


I don’t hate AOC. However I do dislike all the undeserved attention and the people who are giving it to her.
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Re: The Green New Deal

Post by WiseOne » Thu Feb 28, 2019 7:10 am

[/quote]

From Wikipedia
Ocasio-Cortez attended Yorktown High School, graduating in 2007.[20] She came second in the Microbiology category of the Intel International Science and Engineering Fair with a microbiology research project on the effect of antioxidants on the lifespan of the nematode C. elegans.[21] In a show of appreciation for her efforts, the International Astronomical Union named a small asteroid after her: 23238 Ocasio-Cortez.[22][23] In high school, she took part in the National Hispanic Institute's Lorenzo de Zavala (LDZ) Youth Legislative Session. She later became the LDZ Secretary of State while she attended Boston University. Ocasio-Cortez had a John F. Lopez Fellowship.[24] In 2008, while Ocasio-Cortez was a sophomore at Boston University, her father died of lung cancer.[25][26] During college, she served as an intern in the immigration office during the final year of U.S. Senator Ted Kennedy's tenure.[27] "I was the only Spanish speaker, and as a result, as basically a kid—a 19-, 20-year-old kid—whenever a frantic call would come into the office because someone is looking for their husband because they have been snatched off the street by ICE, I was the one that had to pick up that phone," Ocasio-Cortez said. "I was the one that had to help that person navigate that system."[27]
Although I don't doubt she's a hard & ambitious worker, I detect a hint of "Member of Most Favored Minority" advantages in here. Did the other Intel ISEF winners get asteroids named after them? And I'm afraid I find it hard to believe that she was the only Spanish speaker in Ted Kennedy's immigration office.

Hopefully, people will eventually realize that there's little substance behind all the blather.
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Re: The Green New Deal

Post by Libertarian666 » Thu Feb 28, 2019 10:42 am

WiseOne wrote:
Thu Feb 28, 2019 7:10 am

From Wikipedia
Ocasio-Cortez attended Yorktown High School, graduating in 2007.[20] She came second in the Microbiology category of the Intel International Science and Engineering Fair with a microbiology research project on the effect of antioxidants on the lifespan of the nematode C. elegans.[21] In a show of appreciation for her efforts, the International Astronomical Union named a small asteroid after her: 23238 Ocasio-Cortez.[22][23] In high school, she took part in the National Hispanic Institute's Lorenzo de Zavala (LDZ) Youth Legislative Session. She later became the LDZ Secretary of State while she attended Boston University. Ocasio-Cortez had a John F. Lopez Fellowship.[24] In 2008, while Ocasio-Cortez was a sophomore at Boston University, her father died of lung cancer.[25][26] During college, she served as an intern in the immigration office during the final year of U.S. Senator Ted Kennedy's tenure.[27] "I was the only Spanish speaker, and as a result, as basically a kid—a 19-, 20-year-old kid—whenever a frantic call would come into the office because someone is looking for their husband because they have been snatched off the street by ICE, I was the one that had to pick up that phone," Ocasio-Cortez said. "I was the one that had to help that person navigate that system."[27]
Although I don't doubt she's a hard & ambitious worker, I detect a hint of "Member of Most Favored Minority" advantages in here. Did the other Intel ISEF winners get asteroids named after them? And I'm afraid I find it hard to believe that she was the only Spanish speaker in Ted Kennedy's immigration office.

Hopefully, people will eventually realize that there's little substance behind all the blather.
You must be new around here. :D
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Re: The Green New Deal

Post by Libertarian666 » Thu Feb 28, 2019 10:44 am

dualstow wrote:
Wed Feb 27, 2019 8:16 pm
She wormed her way into the Senate. O0
Actually she's in the House, not the Senate. Which is bad enough.
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Re: The Green New Deal

Post by dualstow » Thu Feb 28, 2019 11:09 am

Excuse me, yes: House.
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Re: The Green New Deal

Post by pmward » Thu Feb 28, 2019 12:24 pm

Apparently Powell bashed MMT to both the House and Senate the last few days. Of course, AOC was not present for this: https://finance.yahoo.com/news/fed-powe ... 29640.html
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Re: The Green New Deal

Post by dualstow » Thu Feb 28, 2019 1:41 pm

pmward wrote:
Thu Feb 28, 2019 12:24 pm
Apparently Powell bashed MMT to both the House and Senate the last few days. Of course, AOC was not present for this: https://finance.yahoo.com/news/fed-powe ... 29640.html
At the center of MMT: the idea that tax policy would be more effective at controlling inflation. Instead of asking the Fed to stabilize prices through tools like interest rates, MMT suggests that when prices get too high, Congress can just raise taxes. If prices dip too low, Congress can cut taxes.
Yeah, seems like something that Congress would be into, but the Fed would not.
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Re: The Green New Deal

Post by pmward » Thu Feb 28, 2019 2:13 pm

Yep. That's why I think it's inevitable that the government will eventually go down that road. I don't think the politicians will be able to resist giving themselves both a blank check to spend whatever they want, and also to feel like they could give themselves the power to bypass the fed and control inflation. It's pretty much the backbone behind all of AOC's crazy spending ideas, that the government can get away with assuming infinite debt and spending infinite money so long as they keep taxes at a level that controls for inflation. It's pure craziness to think that there is no line that you can cross that would create a crisis.
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Re: The Green New Deal

Post by Cortopassi » Thu Feb 28, 2019 3:07 pm

pmward wrote:
Thu Feb 28, 2019 2:13 pm
It's pure craziness to think that there is no line that you can cross that would create a crisis.
I'm sure there are people who have been out of the market since 1987 and 2000 and 2008 thinking it can't keep on going up, there is too much debt, unsustainable.

Every few years people seem to come to the conclusion that our debt is too big and the party is over. Yet it keeps on growing and we have yet to be called on it.

I certainly don't know a timeline or what the line is that can't be crossed. Only that many, many supposedly smart people have called for it a long time ago (or call for it perpetually) and it still hasn't happened.

And if you've been out of the market during that time (I was for a chunk before 2014) and highly into gold waiting for that time, you've pretty much been screwed.

PP is better.
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Re: The Green New Deal

Post by pmward » Thu Feb 28, 2019 4:21 pm

Cortopassi wrote:
Thu Feb 28, 2019 3:07 pm
pmward wrote:
Thu Feb 28, 2019 2:13 pm
It's pure craziness to think that there is no line that you can cross that would create a crisis.
I'm sure there are people who have been out of the market since 1987 and 2000 and 2008 thinking it can't keep on going up, there is too much debt, unsustainable.

Every few years people seem to come to the conclusion that our debt is too big and the party is over. Yet it keeps on growing and we have yet to be called on it.

I certainly don't know a timeline or what the line is that can't be crossed. Only that many, many supposedly smart people have called for it a long time ago (or call for it perpetually) and it still hasn't happened.

And if you've been out of the market during that time (I was for a chunk before 2014) and highly into gold waiting for that time, you've pretty much been screwed.

PP is better.
I agree that we don't know where the bounds are. That's also no reason to intentionally test them, haha. That's really what they are proposing, is printing money and binging on debt to do whatever they want. Guaranteeing jobs for everyone, having a "new green deal", paying for college and health care for all, etc all by simply printing money and binging on debt. Then increasing and decreasing taxes, not to pay the debt or generate revenue, but as a way to keep inflation in check. Interest rates would permanently be 0, so they would be substituting taxes for interest rates as the way to attempt to control the currency values.

I also agree that it's best to have a balanced portfolio, to benefit come what may. But I also don't think that if we go to MMT it's going to end well. While we here will do ok with a PP, we are the minority. It's not going to end well for the average stock and bond only investor. All kinds of people that were saving all their lives to be independent in retirement will wind up being forced into dependence on the government. I don't think the central bank system is great either, it's a flawed system as well, but at least it separates politics from monetary policy and does not give congress a blank check to spend as much money as they want and hope there will be no consequences.

That being said, I do always look at both sides of the argument. If anyone is interested, this is a lecture from a very pro-MMT professor. It's very much the counter-argument against what I'm saying. This is kind of the 101 lecture on MMT, and it's kind of the pillar that AOC and the more socialistic Dems policies and opinions are based on. It's always good to look at things from both angles: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E5JTn7GS4oA
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Re: The Green New Deal

Post by Xan » Thu Feb 28, 2019 5:07 pm

MMT has been discussed here in great detail many years ago. I believe it's a "fork" of MMT that is more interesting: Monetary Realism, or "MR".

MR is the factual parts of MMT without the opinions. That is, MR attempts to describe the system as it exists without the "therefore we should..." of MMT. MR does include all the MMT bits about how a country being in debt denominated in its own currency is not (BY ITSELF) a problem.

It may well represent other problems: government doing too much, being too big a part of our lives. But other than the inflation constraint, running a deficit doesn't actually have much of a downside.
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Re: The Green New Deal

Post by Libertarian666 » Thu Feb 28, 2019 5:31 pm

Xan wrote:
Thu Feb 28, 2019 5:07 pm
MMT has been discussed here in great detail many years ago. I believe it's a "fork" of MMT that is more interesting: Monetary Realism, or "MR".

MR is the factual parts of MMT without the opinions. That is, MR attempts to describe the system as it exists without the "therefore we should..." of MMT. MR does include all the MMT bits about how a country being in debt denominated in its own currency is not (BY ITSELF) a problem.

It may well represent other problems: government doing too much, being too big a part of our lives. But other than the inflation constraint, running a deficit doesn't actually have much of a downside.
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Re: The Green New Deal

Post by boglerdude » Fri Mar 01, 2019 2:14 am

MMT folks bring ethics into it, which is not economics. I agree with the "job guarantee" but in the form of removal of minimum wage. Ironically, socialist "progressives" wont allow that to happen, and so our parks here in socal are filled with folks sitting around.

MMT cant go mainstream because it undermines faith in the dollar. If people start questioning the dollar they run out and buy real things like commodities and we get hyperinflation.
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