Major Measels Outbreak Fearred in Washington State (anti-vaxxers)

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Re: Major Measels Outbreak Fearred in Washington State (anti-vaxxers)

Post by Xan » Sun Feb 10, 2019 10:06 pm

Jackson, I think I see this similarly to how you do, with the exception of being fearful of the precedent set.

Maybe all the vaccines out there now are perfectly safe. Maybe the government now can be trusted to commission, acquire, and distribute them, without covering up any major problems that could crop up.

Handing over the power to force people to inject things into their bodies might be a good idea. But how sure are we all those things will continue to be true forever?

It's similar to a test I try to run mentally for political proposals: if the "other guy" comes to be in charge and have this power, would I still support it? If the "other guy" were the one proposing it, what would my reaction be?

Actually, even now I'm not so sure that some significant problem in a vaccine wouldn't be covered up. I'm pretty sure it would be, as the "powers that be" seem to be absolutely addicted to vaccines. I'm not saying that vaccines aren't great, but I would bet that a lot would be covered up for the "greater good" of not discouraging people from getting vaccinated.

All that said, my kids certainly do get all their shots, and we're nervous around kids who haven't.
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Re: Major Measels Outbreak Fearred in Washington State (anti-vaxxers)

Post by Mountaineer » Mon Feb 11, 2019 6:00 am

In reference to the Darwin/Evolution comments above, this presentation "How Darwin Got It Wrong" by Dr. John Sanford* is something to consider.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eUss56QGhMI

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_C._Sanford
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Re: Major Measels Outbreak Fearred in Washington State (anti-vaxxers)

Post by WiseOne » Mon Feb 11, 2019 8:09 am

jacksonM wrote:
Sun Feb 10, 2019 7:01 pm
ISo even though I am heavily libertarian in my political philosophy I am not very sympathetic to the anti-vaxxers. I would change my mind if they had some reasonable evidence but at this point I don't think they do.
Correct, they don't. Most of it's based on a 1998 paper that was retracted because of frankly made-up data. Since then, given the level of concern there have been a lot of serious investigations looking for a link between vaccines and things like autism. Absolutely nothing has turned up. Not to mention epidemiology studies looking at whether the incidence of autism has increased since the 1950s (it hasn't). The problem is that to a non-scientist, it's easy to blame a vaccine for something like autism that usually appears during the time that the child is getting their vaccines. And, to forget about what used to happen to kids before the vaccines were available (yes, even in the 1950s). Things like SSPE used to be common on pediatric neurology services before the MMR was made mandatory. I've never seen a case but we're all bracing ourselves for it because we know we will, probably soon.

I get what Xan is saying though, and it can feel like the vaccine schedule is a bit heavy handed. The real solution is to quit looking at pseudoscience websites and try for something like the CDC's page: https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/hcp/vis/index.html. Note especially the link to the web page listing vaccine side effects: https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vac-gen/side-effects.htm

Believe it or not, the CDC is as reasonably honest as any human organization could be. The side effect listing is quite thorough and they're not trying to hide anything. It's easy to imagine the government as being naturally dishonest and fascist, but the antivaxxer groups aren't being terribly honest themselves.
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Re: Major Measels Outbreak Fearred in Washington State (anti-vaxxers)

Post by Kriegsspiel » Mon Feb 11, 2019 8:28 am

WiseOne wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 8:09 am
Correct, they don't. Most of it's based on a 1998 paper that was retracted because of frankly made-up data.
Surprise, surprise.
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Re: Major Measels Outbreak Fearred in Washington State (anti-vaxxers)

Post by Kriegsspiel » Mon Feb 11, 2019 8:29 am

Xan wrote:
Sun Feb 10, 2019 10:06 pm
Handing over the power to force people to inject things into their bodies might be a good idea. But how sure are we all those things will continue to be true forever?

It's similar to a test I try to run mentally for political proposals: if the "other guy" comes to be in charge and have this power, would I still support it? If the "other guy" were the one proposing it, what would my reaction be?
Yes. One of the biggest reasons to limit government power.
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Re: Major Measels Outbreak Fearred in Washington State (anti-vaxxers)

Post by moda0306 » Mon Feb 11, 2019 9:00 am

Two of my favorite "health experts" are Ben Greenfield and Chris Kresser. I use quotes because while they SEEM incredibly smart, I'm not smart enough to sort out fact from fiction. From what I can tell, I think they could out-debate 95% of "medical professionals" on the topics of general health, nutrition, etc, but this is only an impression I get. Both of these guys (I believe) have chosen to not vaccinate for measles, and they offer up what SEEM to be very informed, nuanced arguments for this.

Ben has a recent post on measles vaccines, and here's the book he links to as a great "source" on the matter.

https://www.amazon.com/Saying-No-Vaccin ... bengree-20

I don't have a horse in this race. I find it interesting but it's a rat's nest of nasty comments and accusations so hopefully we can keep it civil.
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Re: Major Measels Outbreak Fearred in Washington State (anti-vaxxers)

Post by dualstow » Mon Feb 11, 2019 9:12 am

Xan wrote:
Sun Feb 10, 2019 10:06 pm
Actually, even now I'm not so sure that some significant problem in a vaccine wouldn't be covered up. I'm pretty sure it would be, as the "powers that be" seem to be absolutely addicted to vaccines. I'm not saying that vaccines aren't great, but I would bet that a lot would be covered up for the "greater good" of not discouraging people from getting vaccinated.
It's classic Cost/Benefit, or rather Risk/Benefit.

I'm sure there are some out there who believe something like RFID will be injected along with treatment -- not you, Xan. I know you're just talking about the potential cover-up of side effects -- but it's a chance I'm willing to take. I also think there would be plenty of whistleblowers. The initial whistleblowers would be painted as nutcases, and I would assume they are nutcases. But, the truth would out.

We don't even have control over the air that we breathe.
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Re: Major Measels Outbreak Fearred in Washington State (anti-vaxxers)

Post by moda0306 » Mon Feb 11, 2019 9:26 am

dualstow wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 9:12 am
Xan wrote:
Sun Feb 10, 2019 10:06 pm
Actually, even now I'm not so sure that some significant problem in a vaccine wouldn't be covered up. I'm pretty sure it would be, as the "powers that be" seem to be absolutely addicted to vaccines. I'm not saying that vaccines aren't great, but I would bet that a lot would be covered up for the "greater good" of not discouraging people from getting vaccinated.
It's classic Cost/Benefit, or rather Risk/Benefit.

I'm sure there are some out there who believe something like RFID will be injected along with treatment -- not you, Xan. I know you're just talking about the potential cover-up of side effects -- but it's a chance I'm willing to take. I also think there would be plenty of whistleblowers. The initial whistleblowers would be painted as nutcases, and I would assume they are nutcases. But, the truth would out.

We don't even have control over the air that we breathe.
I really don't know about this. In the 1950's doctors were injecting pregnant women with radiation. I don't think this came out until the OJ Simpson trial... to crickets... because there was a football player being tried for murder. :o
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Re: Major Measels Outbreak Fearred in Washington State (anti-vaxxers)

Post by dualstow » Mon Feb 11, 2019 9:56 am

moda0306 wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 9:26 am
dualstow wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 9:12 am
I also think there would be plenty of whistleblowers.
I really don't know about this. In the 1950's doctors were injecting pregnant women with radiation. I don't think this came out until the OJ Simpson trial... to crickets... because there was a football player being tried for murder. :o
On what scale?
"Injecting" -- are you just talking about x-rays?
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Re: Major Measels Outbreak Fearred in Washington State (anti-vaxxers)

Post by moda0306 » Mon Feb 11, 2019 10:49 am

dualstow wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 9:56 am
moda0306 wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 9:26 am
dualstow wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 9:12 am
I also think there would be plenty of whistleblowers.
I really don't know about this. In the 1950's doctors were injecting pregnant women with radiation. I don't think this came out until the OJ Simpson trial... to crickets... because there was a football player being tried for murder. :o
On what scale?
"Injecting" -- are you just talking about x-rays?
Oh my you haven't heard about this? I heard a podcast on it and was literally sick to my stomach by the end.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rad ... xperiments
Numerous human radiation experiments have been performed in the United States, many of which were funded by various U.S. government agencies[3] such as the United States Department of Defense, the United States Atomic Energy Commission, and the United States Public Health Service. Experiments including:

feeding radioactive material to mentally disabled children[4]
enlisting doctors to administer radioactive iron to impoverished pregnant women
exposing U.S. soldiers and prisoners to high levels of radiation[4]
irradiating the testicles of prisoners, which caused severe birth defects[4]
exhuming bodies from graveyards to test them for radiation (without the consent of the families of the deceased)[5]
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Re: Major Measels Outbreak Fearred in Washington State (anti-vaxxers)

Post by dualstow » Mon Feb 11, 2019 10:50 am

No, I hadn't. There's too much to hear about. Tell me more about this OJ fellow.
J/k, that is truly disturbing information. Ugh!
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Re: Major Measels Outbreak Fearred in Washington State (anti-vaxxers)

Post by Xan » Mon Feb 11, 2019 11:57 am

dualstow wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 9:12 am
Xan wrote:
Sun Feb 10, 2019 10:06 pm
Actually, even now I'm not so sure that some significant problem in a vaccine wouldn't be covered up. I'm pretty sure it would be, as the "powers that be" seem to be absolutely addicted to vaccines. I'm not saying that vaccines aren't great, but I would bet that a lot would be covered up for the "greater good" of not discouraging people from getting vaccinated.
It's classic Cost/Benefit, or rather Risk/Benefit.

I'm sure there are some out there who believe something like RFID will be injected along with treatment -- not you, Xan. I know you're just talking about the potential cover-up of side effects -- but it's a chance I'm willing to take. I also think there would be plenty of whistleblowers. The initial whistleblowers would be painted as nutcases, and I would assume they are nutcases. But, the truth would out.

We don't even have control over the air that we breathe.
Just to clarify: I don't think there's a cover-up of side effects. But it wouldn't surprise me if there was a strong urge to cover something up. And I would say my primary fear is "what might happen with this power in the future", not that anybody at all is doing anything wrong right now.

Suppose somebody were to propose that in 100 years, your great-grandchildren would be absolutely required to receive whatever injection that "they" say is needed. Would you vote yes or no on supporting that measure? It would have to be no, wouldn't it? Yet that will undoubtedly be the effect of removing all ability to opt out.
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Re: Major Measels Outbreak Fearred in Washington State (anti-vaxxers)

Post by Maddy » Mon Feb 11, 2019 12:45 pm

If we've learned anything over the last ten years, it's the extent to which we've been blissfully naive about who controls things and about the sociopathic policies that have been pursued in our name but without our knowledge or consent.

One of the things that impacts my assessment of the vaccine issue is the fact that virtually no one is talking about the obvious contributions to the problem of both globalism and immigrant vectors. As long as the issue remains politically charged, you have to maintain a fair degree of skepticism. And considering that there are astronomical profits to be made by minimizing risks or suppressing information, it's hard to believe that we're getting the whole story. After all, if U.S. military policy can be dictated by private corporations, why would we think public health policy would be immune from their influence?

Moreover, as long as there are big question marks about why people get cancer, autoimmune disease, and autism, I think it is too early to rule anything out. I had a wonderful conversation with a PhD immunologist recently, whose private opinion is that the rise in autoimmune disease (which he accepts as a reasonable premise) is probably due, at least in part, to an increase in the cumulative amount of antigenic assault on our bodies ("environmental crap"). The bottom line, for me, is that it makes sense to avoid unnecessary exposures, whether they be from vaccines, Monsanto products or people disembarking from airplanes.

And WiseOne, I do understand your frustration with us. I regularly find myself in the position of having to calm myself down when people start talking about UCC 2-207 and how you can escape the jurisdiction of a court by refusing to sign your name except in capital letters. What I really want to do is say, "How could you be so stupid to believe that?" I have to remind myself that people are being bombarded daily with more misleading information than they can possibly digest--much less evaluate with any degree of expertise. How many of us have the leisure to pursue a master's in epidemiology just to be able to distinguish the meritorious studies from the unmeritorious ones?
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Re: Major Measels Outbreak Fearred in Washington State (anti-vaxxers)

Post by WiseOne » Tue Feb 12, 2019 7:38 am

Simonjester wrote: WiseOne I posted this earlier in the discussion and it got passed by, I am curious what your opinion is
Simonjester wrote: i am not anti vaccination but if I had kids (i don’t) I would be inclined to do some research and ask some questions before vaccinating a child, my uninformed hunch is that the cocktail method of vaccination is based on an irrational fear of needles or of crying children, as is the immunisation of infants, when i was vaccinated only one was done at an age where I was to young to remember, the rest were done in early childhood (grade school age). I would probably vaccinate against the common illnesses now due to the herd immunity thing, and the fact that getting these illnesses as an adult is dangerous, but I would be extremely wary of giving them to young children during critical growth/development ages, and of using all in one shots, again just a uninformed hunch but I suspect multiple shots spread out over years is a safer and more in tune with natural immunity development than what is common vaccination practice today...
what do you think about all in one shots, and immunising the newborn and young infants? no newborn or young infant has to develop immunity to all the bad child hood stuff at once in nature, a once every year or two exposure and immunity development as an older child seems a lot more in keeping with how nature spreads and builds resistance to disease
Simonjester: I agree with your questions about vaccine schedules - unfortunately I'm not aware of any studies or supporting lab evidence to show whether there is added risk from bundling vaccines, or administering on a time-compressed schedule. It is something that probably should be studied. Of note though, many of the illnesses that prompt the vaccines also tend to strike on a compressed schedule (e.g. usually before age 7), and that's got a lot to do with how the schedule was designed.

Maddy: Not sure I understand what you're getting yet. Yes, the measles clusters have started with index cases that came from overseas, but we haven't been given any information to suggest that there's a practical way to prevent this. One of the problems with measles is that the disease can be transmitted for days before it's diagnosable. It might be reasonable, though, to add a question to the visa applications about immunizations, and to add measles to the list of required international immunizations (which currently is limited to yellow fever).

There may or may not be a rise in autoimmune diseases - remember that many of them could not be diagnosed until recently which does NOT mean that they didn't exist previously, and there's been a big increase in conditions like fibromyalgia, celiac, chronic Lyme, and chronic fatigue that have become fads and are enormously overdiagnosed. Sadly, there are a lot of physicians only too happy to prey on people who go diagnosis shopping. Your PhD friend might not be aware of these things. But, it is certainly reasonable to expect that "environmental crap" is not good for us. So where do you start? Fluoridated water, preservatives in food, growth hormones and antibiotics given to meat & milk animals, contaminants in water, unnecessary medications, airborne pollutants, outgassing of furniture and home building materials....quite a long list, and most of these have not been studied to nearly the extent that vaccines have been. If anything, I'd consider vaccines to be the safest of these. Despite a ton of studies there has never been any hint of a link with vaccines and autoimmune disease. If that's the basis of the antivaxxer argument (a theoretical worry with zero evidence despite extensive testing) then the bar for anti-science must be at an all-time low.
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Re: Major Measels Outbreak Fearred in Washington State (anti-vaxxers)

Post by barrett » Wed Feb 13, 2019 8:04 am

dualstow wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 11:59 am
Interesting. When one of my siblings contracted chicken pox, all three of us were put together to get it over with. But, with chicken pox, I thought the logic was that it's much worse if it hits you as an adult. (I'll be waiting years for a shingles vaccine. Supplies are low). We certainly weren't intentionally exposed to anything else. Is that true about chicken pox and childhood, btw? I don't know.
I contracted chicken pox when I was 33 and it was bad... and not just for a few days. I believe my immune system didn't really recover until the last year or two. Just turned 60 last September. I have asthma and the chicken pox triggered a decade of taking everything my pulmonologist could throw at it. The 1990s were my lost decade. Kinda like Japanese stock market only with breathing.

And both my wife and I got our first shingles vaccination last month (we are in CT). Hopefully our pharmacy still has a supply for round two.
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Re: Major Measels Outbreak Fearred in Washington State (anti-vaxxers)

Post by dualstow » Wed Feb 13, 2019 8:33 am

Barrett's back! How long did you have to wait for the shingles vax, part 1?
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Re: Major Measels Outbreak Fearred in Washington State (anti-vaxxers)

Post by WiseOne » Thu Feb 14, 2019 7:18 am

MangoMan wrote:
Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:53 am
WiseOne,

Upthread you mentioned how trustworthy the CDC is. Yet in your last post you refer to Fluoride as one of the 'environmental crap'. Unless something has changed, the CDC considers water fluoridation as a boon to public health with little risk at proper levels. So which is it?
I didn't say they were infallible, just that they aren't nefarious and there's no conspiracy going on. And the extent that they are fallible is no worse than any other group (including the anti-vaxxers). Their position on fluoride is based on available studies, which do the usual thing of confusing correlation with causality. What do you think about that, personally?
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Re: Major Measels Outbreak Fearred in Washington State (anti-vaxxers)

Post by WiseOne » Thu Feb 14, 2019 8:46 am

That's the problem with studies of correlation, as there is always a complex web of associations and results can be unpredictable (e.g. the famous association between Nicolas Cage movies and swimming pool deaths.) There is in fact little difference in tooth decay between countries that do or do not fluoridate drinking water. And, negative effects (e.g. skeletal/dental fluorosis, hypothyroidism, cognitive deficits/neuronal toxicity) have been well documented.

Some of the papers that come up on google searches are in those spammy predatory journals, but here's a fairly unimpeachable source:

https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/magazine/m ... ing-water/

Kinda surprised the antivaxxers aren't going after this instead. It's far lower hanging fruit and a much more productive cause, IMHO.
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Re: Major Measels Outbreak Fearred in Washington State (anti-vaxxers)

Post by dualstow » Thu Feb 14, 2019 1:42 pm

I thought that as long as the level of fluoride is low, that it is extremely beneficial. Also, fluoride (or just fluorine?) occurs naturally in some water supplies. People discovered that teeth were better there and then...
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Re: Major Measels Outbreak Fearred in Washington State (anti-vaxxers)

Post by jacksonM » Thu Feb 14, 2019 5:01 pm

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... mendations
Information discouraging people from getting vaccines for their children, which has gone viral on Facebook, especially in its Groups product, may have contributed to an increase in outbreaks of measles. The crisis drew attention on Thursday from Representative Adam Schiff, who sent a letter to Facebook Chief Executive Officer Mark Zuckerberg and Google boss Sundar Pichai, asking them to address the problem.
I don't know about the rest of you but at this point I'm more concerned about internet censorship, led by the likes of somebody like Adam Schiff, than I am of the anti-vaxxers.
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Re: Major Measels Outbreak Fearred in Washington State (anti-vaxxers)

Post by Xan » Thu Feb 14, 2019 8:00 pm

jacksonM wrote:
Thu Feb 14, 2019 5:01 pm
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... mendations
Information discouraging people from getting vaccines for their children, which has gone viral on Facebook, especially in its Groups product, may have contributed to an increase in outbreaks of measles. The crisis drew attention on Thursday from Representative Adam Schiff, who sent a letter to Facebook Chief Executive Officer Mark Zuckerberg and Google boss Sundar Pichai, asking them to address the problem.
I don't know about the rest of you but at this point I'm more concerned about internet censorship, led by the likes of somebody like Adam Schiff, than I am of the anti-vaxxers.
No doubt about it. "People are talking too freely about things we disapprove of! Facebook, squelch them!"
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Re: Major Measels Outbreak Fearred in Washington State (anti-vaxxers)

Post by WiseOne » Fri Feb 15, 2019 7:19 am

Oh yes, that ship sailed years ago. Some fake news really is "fake news", but a lot of the talk was really about censorship of ideas not approved by the powers that be.

Maybe it would be more productive for Adam Schiff to put out his own Facebook message that could go viral. Instead of a dry point by point rebuttal which no one will listen to, maybe something like "these guys are trying to kill your children!" to draw attention.
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Re: Major Measels Outbreak Fearred in Washington State (anti-vaxxers)

Post by Maddy » Sun Feb 17, 2019 8:16 am

You can't make this up. Hold on to your hat.

It's being reported that a major driver behind the anti-vaccination movement is Russian disinformation.
https://www.rferl.org/a/are-russian-tro ... 68471.html
Forge director Robert Califf, a former commissioner of the U.S. Food and Drug Administration, has said that medical misinformation may be "the issue of our times that demands top priority."

He said combating misinformation campaigns about vaccines had become more complex now that research is demonstrating that a large amount of the social-media posts represent what he called "state-sponsored cyberwarfare, particularly from Russia."

Katharina Kieslich, a political scientist at the University of Vienna, has written that "vaccination hesitancy might be explained from a political-science perspective."
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Re: Major Measels Outbreak Fearred in Washington State (anti-vaxxers)

Post by dualstow » Sun Feb 17, 2019 9:23 am

I guess that’s actually clever of them, the sneaky bastards.
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Re: Major Measels Outbreak Fearred in Washington State (anti-vaxxers)

Post by Mountaineer » Sun Feb 17, 2019 3:31 pm

dualstow wrote:
Sun Feb 17, 2019 9:23 am
I guess that’s actually clever of them, the sneaky bastards.
Everyone needs a boogy man to cast blame upon and thus avoid personal responsibility for ones actions. Who wants to admit they are flawed, wrong, inept, a few bricks short? ;D
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