Major Measels Outbreak Fearred in Washington State (anti-vaxxers)

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Major Measels Outbreak Fearred in Washington State (anti-vaxxers)

Post by Ad Orientem » Thu Feb 07, 2019 6:25 pm

VANCOUVER, Wash. — Amber Gorrow is afraid to leave her house with her infant son because she lives at the epicenter of Washington state’s worst measles outbreak in more than two decades. Born eight weeks ago, Leon is too young to get his first measles shot, putting him at risk for the highly contagious respiratory virus, which can be fatal in small children.

Gorrow also lives in a community where she said being anti-vaccine is as acceptable as being vegan or going gluten free. Almost a quarter of kids in Clark County, Wash., a suburb of Portland, Ore., go to school without measles, mumps and rubella immunizations, and Washington Gov. Jay Inslee (D) recently declared a state of emergency amid concern that things could rapidly spin out of control.

Measles outbreaks have sprung up in nine other states this winter, but officials are particularly alarmed about the one in Clark County because of its potential to go very big, very quickly.

The Pacific Northwest is home to some of the nation’s most vocal and organized anti-vaccination activists. That movement has helped drive down child immunizations in Washington, as well as in neighboring Oregon and Idaho, to some of the lowest rates in the country, with as many as 10.5 percent of kindergartners statewide in Idaho unvaccinated for measles. That is almost double the median rate nationally.

Libertarian-leaning lawmakers, meanwhile, have bowed to public pressure to relax state laws to exempt virtually any child from state vaccination requirements whose parents object. Three states allow only medical exemptions; most others also permit religious exemptions. And 17, including Washington, Oregon and Idaho, allow what they call “philosophical” exemptions, meaning virtually anyone can opt out of the requirements.

All those elements combine into a dangerous mix, spurring concern about the resurgence of a deadly disease that once sent tens of thousands of Americans to hospitals each year and killed an estimated 400 to 500 people, many of them young children.

Read the rest here...
https://www.washingtonpost.com/national ... b926118e26
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Re: Major Measels Outbreak Fearred in Washington State (anti-vaxxers)

Post by Maddy » Thu Feb 07, 2019 9:14 pm

I'm old enough to remember being intentionally exposed before the age of 7 to not only measles but to mumps and chicken pox. The thought was that these illnesses were easily weathered by kids but could create problems if contracted later on in life. You've really got to wonder about today's "spare no intervention" approach to health policy, when several generations skated through these illnesses with relatively few problems.
Simonjester wrote:
i had measles, mumps and chicken pox as well, i wasn’t intentionally exposed but we got them when it went around.
We did get individual vaccinations for German measles and one or two other real bad illnesses (probably polio and I don’t recall what else now) but no big mix cocktails for more than one thing at a time or for common childhood illnesses.
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Re: Major Measels Outbreak Fearred in Washington State (anti-vaxxers)

Post by ochotona » Thu Feb 07, 2019 10:25 pm

I had the measles at 18, my childhood vax partly wore off, it was just horrible. I was wishing for death. High fever, chills, light phobia, hallucinating. Not cool.
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Re: Major Measels Outbreak Fearred in Washington State (anti-vaxxers)

Post by WiseOne » Fri Feb 08, 2019 7:08 am

You may have done OK Maddy, but the problem is that some don't. For starters, read this letter from Roald Dahl, where he talks about his daughter's death from subacute sclerosing panencephalitis at age 7:

https://www.roalddahlfans.com/dahls-wor ... s-illness/

The usual immune-compromised populations are going to have higher rates of morbidity/mortality from measles than the general population, and often vaccination isn't an option: infants, the elderly, people on immunosuppressive therapy for whatever reason, immune disorders, diabetics. Part of the reason to vaccinate everyone else is to protect them via herd immunity. Portland and Seattle have a problem because their vaccination rates have been allowed to drop below the 90% needed to get that effect.

Also measles is possibly the most contagious virus on the planet. Outbreaks are just plain disruptive and result in a lot of hospitalizations and lost business & school time. I'm not sure you'd buy this as an argument for vaccination, but just consider that in the pre-vaccination era when measles was rampant, hospitals had the extra capacity to deal with outbreaks. Today, due to cost cutting/profit maximization, they don't. And over-regulation will make it impossible to adapt quickly. Hospitals regularly fill up during flu season as it is - imagine what would happen during a major disease outbreak. Keep an eye on the news from the Northwest, because they may well be dealing with this soon.
Simonjester wrote: i am not anti vaccination but if I had kids (i don’t) I would be inclined to do some research and ask some questions before vaccinating a child, my uninformed hunch is that the cocktail method of vaccination is based on an irrational fear of needles or of crying children, as is the immunisation of infants, when i was vaccinated only one was done at an age where I was to young to remember, the rest were done in early childhood (grade school age). I would probably vaccinate against the common illnesses now due to the herd immunity thing, and the fact that getting these illnesses as an adult is dangerous, but I would be extremely wary of giving them to young children during critical growth/development ages, and of using all in one shots, again just a uninformed hunch but I suspect multiple shots spread out over years is a safer and more in tune with natural immunity development than what is common vaccination practice today...
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Re: Major Measels Outbreak Fearred in Washington State (anti-vaxxers)

Post by Ad Orientem » Fri Feb 08, 2019 10:12 am

A good article on the anti-vaxx movement...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaccine_hesitancy
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Re: Major Measels Outbreak Fearred in Washington State (anti-vaxxers)

Post by moda0306 » Fri Feb 08, 2019 11:25 am

MangoMan wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 10:59 am
Ad Orientem wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 10:12 am
A good article on the anti-vaxx movement...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaccine_hesitancy
Despite overwhelming scientific consensus[3][4][5] that vaccines are safe and effective,[6] unsubstantiated scares regarding their safety still occur, resulting in outbreaks and deaths from vaccine-preventable diseases.
LOL. These same parents are undoubtedly climate change fanatics who claim the 'science' is unequivocal. As always, supreme hypocrisy and lack of logic from the far left.
Anti-vax isn't a left-wing phenomenon. There are plenty on the anti-establishment left and anti-establishment right that believe vaccines are more dangerous than is being pushed by "the establishment."

That said, what drives "the left's" skepticism about vaccines is generally also what drives their skepticism about burning fossil fuels at an alarming rate... that tinkering with nature on such a grand scale comes with a bunch of risks... some of which can be identified, and some we simply don't know, but the burden of proof should be on the the fossil fuel burners and vaccine proponents, as they're the ones altering the environment.

I'm paraphrasing and generalizing of course...
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Re: Major Measels Outbreak Fearred in Washington State (anti-vaxxers)

Post by dualstow » Fri Feb 08, 2019 11:59 am

I'm old enough to remember being intentionally exposed before the age of 7 to not only measles but to mumps and chicken pox.
Interesting. When one of my siblings contracted chicken pox, all three of us were put together to get it over with. But, with chicken pox, I thought the logic was that it's much worse if it hits you as an adult. (I'll be waiting years for a shingles vaccine. Supplies are low).
We certainly weren't intentionally exposed to anything else. Is that true about chicken pox and childhood, btw? I don't know.
WiseOne wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 7:08 am
You may have done OK Maddy, but the problem is that some don't. For starters, read this letter from Roald Dahl, where he talks about his daughter's death from subacute sclerosing panencephalitis at age 7:

https://www.roalddahlfans.com/dahls-wor ... s-illness/
I saw the text of that letter on Reddit yesterday. Very moving. And I was sick in bed (with a bad cold), so that amplified my feelings.
Last edited by dualstow on Fri Feb 08, 2019 12:02 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Major Measels Outbreak Fearred in Washington State (anti-vaxxers)

Post by dualstow » Fri Feb 08, 2019 12:01 pm

moda0306 wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 11:25 am
but the burden of proof should be on the the fossil fuel burners and vaccine proponents, as they're the ones altering the environment.

I'm paraphrasing and generalizing of course...
Fine with me, but the burden of death should be on the anti-vaxxers.
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Re: Major Measels Outbreak Fearred in Washington State (anti-vaxxers)

Post by Kriegsspiel » Fri Feb 08, 2019 12:23 pm

Typhoid-carrying fleas have been reported at the Los Angeles city hall.

I imagine living in on the West Coast now involves lifting up your artificial reality goggles and peering out the window of your autonomous hovercraft, through the smog, to see people dying of measles and typhoid like 16th century London. Can anyone confirm? Tortoise?
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Re: Major Measels Outbreak Fearred in Washington State (anti-vaxxers)

Post by Maddy » Fri Feb 08, 2019 7:55 pm

Without meaning to fall into the "golden age" fallacy, I do wonder why risks generally thought statistically quite negligible 50 years ago loom so large today. Are people's immune systems shot from all the environmental crap we're exposed to? Have bugs become more virulent? I'm going to take a wild stab in the dark and suggest that with increasing lifespan and the dawn of interventions that keep medically fragile people alive much longer, we've got a much weaker, sicker population to defend.

If I'm correct about that, is protecting the Darwin-defying population necessarily a goal we want to pursue in the larger scheme of things--particularly if it comes at a price in the form of autoimmune diseases, autism, etc.?
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Re: Major Measels Outbreak Fearred in Washington State (anti-vaxxers)

Post by drumminj » Fri Feb 08, 2019 8:05 pm

Maddy wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 7:55 pm
I'm going to take a wild stab in the dark and suggest that with increasing lifespan and the dawn of interventions that keep medically fragile people alive much longer, we've got a much weaker, sicker population to defend.
I've often thought the same thing -- we've been thwarting natural selection and weakening our species as a result. One could argue our ability to adapt is something being selected *for*, but I wonder if it may bite us (westernized-humans) in the end.
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Re: Major Measels Outbreak Fearred in Washington State (anti-vaxxers)

Post by dualstow » Fri Feb 08, 2019 10:04 pm

What’s the alternative? Sparta? Eugenics? Leave Stephen Hawking and his wheelchair on an ice floe?

You can see how Darwin works in that Arctic wolf pack documentary on Nature. That does not look like a fun life.

Of course the bugs are catching up with our vaccinations, but we’ll have to come up with new vaccines, and new methods. Letting nature sort it out...does not look like fun either.

More importantly, we’re living healthier lives than we ever have in the history of mankind. Is that so bad? God bless Maurice Hilleman. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maurice_Hilleman
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Re: Major Measels Outbreak Fearred in Washington State (anti-vaxxers)

Post by Kriegsspiel » Fri Feb 08, 2019 10:30 pm

dualstow wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 10:04 pm
What’s the alternative? Sparta? Eugenics? Leave Stephen Hawking and his wheelchair on an ice floe?

You can see how Darwin works in that Arctic wolf pack documentary on Nature. That does not look like a fun life.
I have noticed that people don't realize that evolution isn't fun. People seem to think the animals had a choice in being the fittest and surviving, like they could work at it and if they worked hard enough, they'd successfully procreate and live. Or that animals evolve to be the best at something. But the reality is the unfit used to die. And I'm sure they did the animal equivalent of screaming in impotent rage in their last moments. Nothing with a brain ever thinks "well, it's for the good of the species that I die before I have any kids." Ashkenazi Jews didn't develop high IQs because they had a cushy go of it.
Of course the bugs are catching up with our vaccinations, but we’ll have to come up with new vaccines, and new methods. Letting nature sort it out...does not look like fun either.
Yup. It won't be fun. But say a vaccine/cure isn't created. If a shit ton of humans die, like 75% or whatever, that would be awful for pretty much everyone alive. But the ones that survive because they're immune for some reason pass on those genes, and if humans survive, it's like Forrest Gump said, "That's good! One less thing!" And in the future, they won't even think about it, just like we don't think about how we're able to survive diseases that wiped out 90% of the humans who were living in the Western Hemisphere upon contact with Europeans.
More importantly, we’re living healthier lives than we ever have in the history of mankind. Is that so bad?
For individual people, it rocks. But species-wide it seems... sub-optimal if people pass on bad genes, yea.
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Re: Major Measels Outbreak Fearred in Washington State (anti-vaxxers)

Post by dualstow » Fri Feb 08, 2019 11:19 pm

Kriegsspiel wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 10:30 pm
More importantly, we’re living healthier lives than we ever have in the history of mankind. Is that so bad?
For individual people, it rocks. But species-wide it seems... sub-optimal if people pass on bad genes, yea.
Sure, but:
(1) We're tool users now, where tools include false teeth, vaccines and space suits. The trade-offs are going to the dentist instead of selecting for perfect teeth (at the expense of something else), vaccines instead of waiting around to develop something like sickle cells for malaria, and space suits instead of evolving the ability to get to the moon while holding our breath.

And regarding the sickle cell, there's the anemia side of it. And those with sickle-cell disease have no protection against malaria. Evolution is messy.

(2) We're social animals. We're a network. So while not everyone is born with resistance to this or that, we help each other. Maybe this sub-optimal state forces us to cooperate even more.

I think there was a (3), but it's past my bedtime.
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Re: Major Measels Outbreak Fearred in Washington State (anti-vaxxers)

Post by Maddy » Sat Feb 09, 2019 1:15 am

dualstow wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 10:04 pm
What’s the alternative? Sparta? Eugenics? Leave Stephen Hawking and his wheelchair on an ice floe?
That fate seems acceptable enough for those of us who can budget no more than about $200 a year for health care and who are indignant enough about the alternative (Medicaid) to refuse it. You kind of get used to the idea that at some point your number is up.

But on the bright side, imagine what might happen to the Type 2 diabetes statistics--not to mention the grossly obese subpopulation traversing the aisles of Walmart in motorized wheelchairs equipped with oxygen tanks--if people had to actually DO something about their condition (or risk).
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Re: Major Measels Outbreak Fearred in Washington State (anti-vaxxers)

Post by Kriegsspiel » Sat Feb 09, 2019 7:32 am

dualstow wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 11:19 pm
(1) We're tool users now, where tools include false teeth, vaccines and space suits.
The animals that evolved into us were tool users for millions of years.
The trade-offs are going to the dentist instead of selecting for perfect teeth (at the expense of something else), vaccines instead of waiting around to develop something like sickle cells for malaria, and space suits instead of evolving the ability to get to the moon while holding our breath.
Going to the dentist would be more like a... I can't remember the exact term, but a 'fitness masker.' Analogous to bird researchers and "ugly" birds. Researchers took birds where the length of the tail was a marker of fitness, and the birds with the longest tails were most attractive to mates. They attached a tail extension onto previously unattractive birds, who then started attracting the ladies. But the babies of the short tailed birds inherited the deficient genes of the father, and had short tails and other unfitness, like susceptibility to parasites, which long tails normally indicated were absent. So you can mask the deficient genes with tools, but in population terms, it's like putting poison into a pop bottle and thinking it's alright to drink now.
And regarding the sickle cell, there's the anemia side of it. And those with sickle-cell disease have no protection against malaria. Evolution is messy.
Absolutely. There are other ones I've seen, where favorable traits are co-morbid with deficient ones. Tay-Sachs, blue eyes, extremely high intelligence. Native Americans are more susceptible to alcoholism; I haven't seen anything, but I would assume that there is some gene that was favorable in some way that also increases susceptibility to alcohol.
(2) We're social animals. We're a network. So while not everyone is born with resistance to this or that, we help each other. Maybe this sub-optimal state forces us to cooperate even more.
I don't think this was the case for most of our history. Furthermore, I think evidence shows that we especially didn't help unfit males. Genetic studies show that historically only 40% of males (and 80% of females) had viable offspring. And 8,000 years ago, 17 females reproduced for every 1 male. I think it's safe to say that nobody was helping out these prehistoric incels.

Until very recently, pretty much everyone on the planet lived very close to a subsistence lifestyle, they simply weren't able, or willing, to help out people who (wow, really sounding evil here) weren't fit to live. There may have been a tribe who were really got into morality, but it stands to reason that people who were very stupid, or had bad eyesight, or who had weak stomachs, or whatever, wouldn't have lasted long anyways.

So for a super long time, those unfit people were pruned. It's not like after millions of years of evolution you end up with a perfected population, either. Mutations are pretty much constant, sometimes they're good, but most of the time they're bad. It's only at our current level of technological sophistication that we're able, and willing, to help out the unfit (again, in genetic/biological terms, not moral).

I'm planning on getting more into this subject this year after I close out my current focus area, so I'm glad you brought it up. Very timely.
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Re: Major Measels Outbreak Fearred in Washington State (anti-vaxxers)

Post by dualstow » Sat Feb 09, 2019 8:58 am

Very interesting post! What's wrong with blue eyes- macular degeneration? I think I read something like that for blue and grey eyes.
Kriegsspiel wrote:
Sat Feb 09, 2019 7:32 am


Going to the dentist would be more like a... I can't remember the exact term, but a 'fitness masker.' Analogous to bird researchers and "ugly" birds. Researchers took birds where the length of the tail was a marker of fitness, and the birds with the longest tails were most attractive to mates. They attached a tail extension onto previously unattractive birds, who then started attracting the ladies. But the babies of the short tailed birds inherited the deficient genes of the father, and had short tails and other unfitness, like susceptibility to parasites, which long tails normally indicated were absent. So you can mask the deficient genes with tools, but in population terms, it's like putting poison into a pop bottle and thinking it's alright to drink now.
The part I bolded is new for me. Wow. Now you have me thinking about the discussion in Korea about whether one has the right to know if their would-be spouse has had plastic surgery.

{d}(2) We're social animals. We're a network. So while not everyone is born with resistance to this or that, we help each other. Maybe this sub-optimal state forces us to cooperate even more.
{kr.}I don't think this was the case for most of our history. Furthermore, I think evidence shows that we especially didn't help unfit males.

I agree. Social for a long time, altruistic for a short time. Well, I read something about how altruism was born out of cold, natural forces, including selfishness, and I thought, well, I'll just sweep this under the rug. It may have been in Carl Sagan and Ann Druyan's Shadows of Forgotten Ancestors, but I'm only 50% sure.
It's only at our current level of technological sophistication that we're able, and willing, to help out the unfit (again, in genetic/biological terms, not moral).
And we should definitely keep going in this direction. I shudder when I think about how the deformed are treated in Japan, although maybe that has changed in recent years.
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Re: Major Measels Outbreak Fearred in Washington State (anti-vaxxers)

Post by WiseOne » Sat Feb 09, 2019 10:47 am

Maddy wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 7:55 pm
Without meaning to fall into the "golden age" fallacy, I do wonder why risks generally thought statistically quite negligible 50 years ago loom so large today. Are people's immune systems shot from all the environmental crap we're exposed to? Have bugs become more virulent?
No. What the H are you all talking about??? Surviving childhood has become an expectation in our society thanks to vaccines, antibiotics, and modern water/sewer systems. Before the modern era, it was not.

I spent several months as a medical student at a mission hospital in rural Kenya. No vaccines and no "environmental crap" to speak of. Food was virtually 100% grown or raised locally, and people lived in communal mud thatched homes that were constantly rebuilt. Sounds healthy, right? Almost every night I was on call, I'd get that tap on the window that meant I needed to get up and watch a child die. That's the thing we're all forgetting: children used to die. A lot.

No doubt there are environmental toxins causing chronic health issues that need to be cleaned up, but let's just get some perspective here. Getting back to measles, yes most cases will recover just fine after a miserable few weeks. It would just suck if your kid was one of the 0.1% with the serious complications though, wouldn't it?
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Re: Major Measels Outbreak Fearred in Washington State (anti-vaxxers)

Post by Kriegsspiel » Sat Feb 09, 2019 10:48 am

dualstow wrote:
Sat Feb 09, 2019 8:58 am
Very interesting post! What's wrong with blue eyes- macular degeneration? I think I read something like that for blue and grey eyes.
Yup. People that have blue eyes are more susceptible to eye problems.
Kriegsspiel wrote:
Sat Feb 09, 2019 7:32 am
Going to the dentist would be more like a... I can't remember the exact term, but a 'fitness masker.' Analogous to bird researchers and "ugly" birds. Researchers took birds where the length of the tail was a marker of fitness, and the birds with the longest tails were most attractive to mates. They attached a tail extension onto previously unattractive birds, who then started attracting the ladies. But the babies of the short tailed birds inherited the deficient genes of the father, and had short tails and other unfitness, like susceptibility to parasites, which long tails normally indicated were absent. So you can mask the deficient genes with tools, but in population terms, it's like putting poison into a pop bottle and thinking it's alright to drink now.
The part I bolded is new for me. Wow. Now you have me thinking about the discussion in Korea about whether one has the right to know if their would-be spouse has had plastic surgery.
I hadn't heard about that, but it dovetails nicely into the our discussion.
Social for a long time, altruistic for a short time. Well, I read something about how altruism was born out of cold, natural forces, including selfishness, and I thought, well, I'll just sweep this under the rug. It may have been in Carl Sagan and Ann Druyan's Shadows of Forgotten Ancestors, but I'm only 50% sure.
I am pretty sure the book where I read about the bird-tail study, The Red Queen by Ridley, referenced Carl Sagan and Ann Druyan. I'm going to read it again next month so I'll be able to verify. I added SoFA to my reading list though, looks interesting. Maybe you read about the selfish thing in The Selfish Gene by Dawkins?
It's only at our current level of technological sophistication that we're able, and willing, to help out the unfit (again, in genetic/biological terms, not moral).
And we should definitely keep going in this direction. I shudder when I think about how the deformed are treated in Japan, although maybe that has changed in recent years.
It's definitely comforting to believe we'll discover cold fusion, have unlimited electricity, utilize CRISPR and cyborgitry to transform into demigods, and conquer the stars. I think it's more plausible that once fossil fuels become uneconomical, we'll slowly regress to a level of technological prowess a bit more advanced than the Middle Ages of Europe and China, with concomitant populations subject to Malthusian law.
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Re: Major Measels Outbreak Fearred in Washington State (anti-vaxxers)

Post by Mountaineer » Sat Feb 09, 2019 11:24 am

Kriegsspiel wrote:
Sat Feb 09, 2019 10:48 am
dualstow wrote:
Sat Feb 09, 2019 8:58 am
Very interesting post! What's wrong with blue eyes- macular degeneration? I think I read something like that for blue and grey eyes.
Yup. People that have blue eyes are more susceptible to eye problems.
Kriegsspiel wrote:
Sat Feb 09, 2019 7:32 am
Going to the dentist would be more like a... I can't remember the exact term, but a 'fitness masker.' Analogous to bird researchers and "ugly" birds. Researchers took birds where the length of the tail was a marker of fitness, and the birds with the longest tails were most attractive to mates. They attached a tail extension onto previously unattractive birds, who then started attracting the ladies. But the babies of the short tailed birds inherited the deficient genes of the father, and had short tails and other unfitness, like susceptibility to parasites, which long tails normally indicated were absent. So you can mask the deficient genes with tools, but in population terms, it's like putting poison into a pop bottle and thinking it's alright to drink now.
The part I bolded is new for me. Wow. Now you have me thinking about the discussion in Korea about whether one has the right to know if their would-be spouse has had plastic surgery.
I hadn't heard about that, but it dovetail nicely into the our discussion.
Social for a long time, altruistic for a short time. Well, I read something about how altruism was born out of cold, natural forces, including selfishness, and I thought, well, I'll just sweep this under the rug. It may have been in Carl Sagan and Ann Druyan's Shadows of Forgotten Ancestors, but I'm only 50% sure.
I am pretty sure the book where I read about the bird-tail study, The Red Queen by Ridley, referenced Carl Sagan and Ann Druyan. I'm going to read it again next month so I'll be able to verify. I added SoFA to my reading list though, looks interesting. Maybe you read about the selfish thing in The Selfish Gene by Dawkins?
It's only at our current level of technological sophistication that we're able, and willing, to help out the unfit (again, in genetic/biological terms, not moral).
And we should definitely keep going in this direction. I shudder when I think about how the deformed are treated in Japan, although maybe that has changed in recent years.
It's definitely comforting to believe we'll discover cold fusion, have unlimited electricity, utilize CRISPR and cyborgitry to transform into demigods, and conquer the stars. I think it's more plausible that once fossil fuels become uneconomical, we'll slowly regress to a level of technological prowess a bit more advanced than the Middle Ages of Europe and China, with concomitant populations subject to Malthusian law.
Was the "dovetails" comment an intended pun for this tails discussion? ;D
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Re: Major Measels Outbreak Fearred in Washington State (anti-vaxxers)

Post by Kriegsspiel » Sat Feb 09, 2019 11:29 am

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Re: Major Measels Outbreak Fearred in Washington State (anti-vaxxers)

Post by Maddy » Sat Feb 09, 2019 12:26 pm

WiseOne wrote:
Sat Feb 09, 2019 10:47 am
Maddy wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 7:55 pm
Without meaning to fall into the "golden age" fallacy, I do wonder why risks generally thought statistically quite negligible 50 years ago loom so large today. Are people's immune systems shot from all the environmental crap we're exposed to? Have bugs become more virulent?
No. What the H are you all talking about??? Surviving childhood has become an expectation in our society thanks to vaccines, antibiotics, and modern water/sewer systems. Before the modern era, it was not.

I spent several months as a medical student at a mission hospital in rural Kenya. No vaccines and no "environmental crap" to speak of. Food was virtually 100% grown or raised locally, and people lived in communal mud thatched homes that were constantly rebuilt. Sounds healthy, right? Almost every night I was on call, I'd get that tap on the window that meant I needed to get up and watch a child die. That's the thing we're all forgetting: children used to die. A lot.

No doubt there are environmental toxins causing chronic health issues that need to be cleaned up, but let's just get some perspective here. Getting back to measles, yes most cases will recover just fine after a miserable few weeks. It would just suck if your kid was one of the 0.1% with the serious complications though, wouldn't it?
Well, now, hold your horses, WiseOne. I wasn't comparing today's expectations and outcomes to those of the pre-modern era. For heaven's sake, I'm not THAT old! I was thinking back to the late 50s and early 60s, when the norm (and the standard of care, I'm guessing) was to let nature take its course. Had the prospect of contracting measles, chicken pox, or any of the other "normal" childhood diseases involved risks perceived to be anywhere near as significant as they are perceived to be today, "good" mothers would not have been hosting children's parties for the express purposes of exposing the entire neighborhood at once and getting it over with in a convenient, controlled fashion--apparently with the blessing of these children's pediatricians. So what, if anything, has changed?
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Re: Major Measels Outbreak Fearred in Washington State (anti-vaxxers)

Post by dualstow » Sat Feb 09, 2019 6:20 pm

I just read the following in ‘Sapiens ‘:
Archeologists have discovered the bones of Neanderthals who lived for many years with severe physical handicaps, evidence that they were cared for by their relatives.
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Re: Major Measels Outbreak Fearred in Washington State (anti-vaxxers)

Post by dualstow » Sun Feb 10, 2019 5:15 pm

Also potentially if weakly related to the “weeding” of the unfit: bullying and sibling rivalry.
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Re: Major Measels Outbreak Fearred in Washington State (anti-vaxxers)

Post by jacksonM » Sun Feb 10, 2019 7:01 pm

I remember as a kid standing in line at the local high school along with all my family and all of of our neighbors to get the Sabin oral vaccine for polio - on two separate occasions because it required a double dose as best I remember it.

I also remember my brother getting sick and my parents being very worried that he had polio and possibly spending the rest of his life as a cripple or even being in an iron lung.

I don't remember hearing of anyone getting polio after the vaccine.

So even though I am heavily libertarian in my political philosophy I am not very sympathetic to the anti-vaxxers. I would change my mind if they had some reasonable evidence but at this point I don't think they do.
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