Figuring Out Religion

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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Xan » Wed Dec 19, 2018 3:38 pm

I hope I can represent the answers correctly and faithfully!
Cortopassi wrote:
Wed Dec 19, 2018 12:23 pm
Serious questions from a non-religious person (me).

--Was there something about the time period 2000 years ago that God felt he needed his son down here? Vs. some other time period?
I don't think it's any particular event or situation that caused that particular time and place to be chosen. It was the time and place that were the right time and place. From a purely human standpoint, I would say that the Roman Empire was the ideal way to spread the new Gospel far and wide. From the standpoint of faith, we trust that all things work for the good of the elect, and that the right time and place were chosen.
Cortopassi wrote:
Wed Dec 19, 2018 12:23 pm
--What about Jesus gets him the son of God title? Couldn't he just have been some charismatic guy who was good with getting people to follow him, with maybe some exaggeration along the way?
Are you wondering why Christians consider him to be the Son of God? Well, he was conceived by the Holy Spirit, and twice (I think just twice) the voice of God the Father declared him to be "His beloved Son": at his Baptism and his Transfiguration. Also he said things like "Whoever has seen Me has seen the Father". Or, "Before Abraham was, I am".

Or are you asking why, today, we don't consider the Bible to be exaggerated stories of a charismatic person good with getting people to follow him?

I won't tell you that's impossible. Maybe you're right. But Jesus wasn't all that good at getting people to follow him. He got SOME people to follow him, but he wasn't cruising around, picking up all the support he could. For example, he fed the 5,000, which caused the huge crowd to follow him around, but they were only loyal because their bellies were full and they wanted to keep it that way. That's when he told them that they had to eat his flesh and drink his blood or they had no life in them. When they balked at this, instead of telling them that he meant that spiritually (as he had about Baptism with Nicodemus earlier in John), he doubles down and says that they have to grind his flesh between their teeth. (That's my understanding of the sense of the verb there, anyway.) And most of them leave him.
Cortopassi wrote:
Wed Dec 19, 2018 12:23 pm
--Is religion instinctual? If someone was raised without religion, nowadays, where virtually every natural phenomena is explainable, would religion wither away over time (I think it is to some extent based off data, right?)
Maybe it's instinctual, but I wouldn't say that means it's false. Radios have antennas, because they're built to receive transmissions. That doesn't mean nobody is transmitting, in fact, it would make it seem likely that there IS a transmission.

I don't think the primary purpose of religion is to explain natural phenomena, and certainly that isn't the purpose of true religion. This is all about something much deeper and more important, like what our situation is as human beings, how should we treat each other, is there such a thing as objective right and wrong, and what is its source, why is there something rather than nothing, things like that.
Cortopassi wrote:
Wed Dec 19, 2018 12:23 pm
--Why haven't we had a repeat visit? Related to the first question. Haven't there been enough dark periods since 2000 years ago that should have warranted another visit? What would cause another visit?
Touched on this earlier. It wasn't "bad stuff" that caused Jesus to come the first time. He'd been prophesied to come since Genesis 3, when God said that the seed of the woman would crush the serpent's head. He came, took our sins upon himself, and received our punishment in our place, so that we may come into the presence of God. That doesn't need to happen again. When he comes again, it will be the end of the world and the establishment of the new heaven and new earth.
Cortopassi wrote:
Wed Dec 19, 2018 12:23 pm
--When bad things happen (illness, war, etc) the response from religious people will vary from "It's God's will" to something along the lines of humans are bad people and we have free will. Which is it? Why is my aunt dying at 48 God's will, but Hitler killing 6 million Jews under human control?
Luther differentiated God's hidden will from his revealed will. His hidden will is beyond our understanding, and something that it is best for us not to know (or he would have told us). His revealed will is described in Scripture. He doesn't promise that nothing bad will ever happen, in fact he describes that things will be worse for his followers than for everyone else!

"Why do bad things happen to good people" and "Why are some saved and not others" are questions that I admit I would very much like to know the answer to. But it's none of my business: I need to stick with what God HAS told me, not what he hasn't.

I will say that all bad things that happen in this world, including and especially death, are a result of sin. Man's rebellion against God. Massive disasters are a reminder that this world is temporal and will end.
Cortopassi wrote:
Wed Dec 19, 2018 12:23 pm
--How do well educated people such as scientists, doctors and engineers who are 100% driven by real world experiences and data in their daily lives so easily have faith in something they've never seen?
I can't speak for anybody other than myself, but I'm broadly in the category you describe. All of us, every one, has faith in something we haven't seen constantly. Do you only drive over bridges which you have personally overseen from the design through construction phases? Do you get in elevators without checking the cables? Do you examine the maintenance log before you board an airplane? No. You have faith that somebody else is taking care of those things.

I would say that being surrounded by facts and data all the time makes me believe even more strongly that that isn't all there is to life. Would you say that the process of raising a family can be done entirely through facts and data? Are facts and data all that are involved in sitting around a poker table with friends?

Christianity is the religion based on the ultimate fact: the resurrection of Jesus. If that didn't happen, then maybe life IS just facts and data, and I'm actually the God of my life. What a scary thought!
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Cortopassi » Wed Dec 19, 2018 4:15 pm

Thanks, Xan, I appreciate the thought out responses.

Touching on a couple things from my experience, many times growing up I would sit through the part of the mass where the lines about eat of my body and drink of my blood come up wondering what an alien deposited on earth into a mass would think of that....

On the spreading of the gospel, seems with Youtube and videos that now would be a really ideal time in human history to get the word out immediately. But you can imagine the response. Nutjob, crazy, etc. I wonder what Jesus would have to do in modern times to get people to follow him and not think he was a kook.

Most importantly "This is all about something much deeper and more important, like what our situation is as human beings, how should we treat each other, is there such a thing as objective right and wrong," I agree 100%. I just did not need religion (personally) to understand this and teach my children this. My mother thought/thinks it was impossible to achieve without religion, but her grandkids prove that wrong.

Once each of us pass away we'll find out one way or another!

Merry Christmas!
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by jacksonM » Wed Dec 19, 2018 5:31 pm

How to create a human being. Just repeat this process over the course of several million years.....

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=pl ... &FORM=VIRE

As the apostle Paul said, "run the race to win". Future generations are depending on you!
Last edited by jacksonM on Wed Dec 19, 2018 10:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by jacksonM » Wed Dec 19, 2018 5:38 pm

stuper1 wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 10:18 pm
Jesus said that only the sick need a physician. If you're not sick, you don't need Him. Very simple.
It's not that I'm not sick in many ways as this seems to be the human condition but I have grown very distrustful of doctors.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by jacksonM » Wed Dec 19, 2018 6:20 pm

jacksonM wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 3:50 pm
Xan wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 3:46 pm
jacksonM wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 3:42 pm


No, I would not say that.

How about you?
Definitely I would not. But I'm not denying that I'm intrinsically self-centered and in need of repentance.
I didn't deny that I was intrinsically self-centered. This is common to every creature on planet earth.

I said I didn't think this made me intrinsically evil.

(And BTW, I was so drunk I have no recollection of making the post where I said that though I do remember listening to the song I linked to. As to what the song has to do with the topic I'll have to think about it.)
Okay I think I figured out why I posted that link after listening to it about 25 times over and over again.

My first wife died of cancer. She was a believer but often times she made me feel like she was Job's wife. When things got bad she would castigate me for my faith, asking why I continued to believe. Nevertheless, she stuck with me for 27 years.

So now that she's gone I've come to see her point.

So join me in singing along with my wonderful song of liberation....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cs8i0pzDxYw
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Xan » Wed Dec 19, 2018 9:12 pm

Cortopassi wrote:
Wed Dec 19, 2018 4:15 pm
Thanks, Xan, I appreciate the thought out responses.

Touching on a couple things from my experience, many times growing up I would sit through the part of the mass where the lines about eat of my body and drink of my blood come up wondering what an alien deposited on earth into a mass would think of that....

On the spreading of the gospel, seems with Youtube and videos that now would be a really ideal time in human history to get the word out immediately. But you can imagine the response. Nutjob, crazy, etc. I wonder what Jesus would have to do in modern times to get people to follow him and not think he was a kook.

Most importantly "This is all about something much deeper and more important, like what our situation is as human beings, how should we treat each other, is there such a thing as objective right and wrong," I agree 100%. I just did not need religion (personally) to understand this and teach my children this. My mother thought/thinks it was impossible to achieve without religion, but her grandkids prove that wrong.

Once each of us pass away we'll find out one way or another!

Merry Christmas!
Merry Christmas to you as well Corto, and thanks for the thoughtful discussion.

If you don't want to get further I totally understand. But I'm curious where, from what I assume is an atheist worldview, you get objective right and wrong.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by jacksonM » Wed Dec 19, 2018 10:55 pm

Xan wrote:
Wed Dec 19, 2018 9:12 pm
But I'm curious where, from what I assume is an atheist worldview, you get objective right and wrong.
I don't call myself an atheist because if I do a Christian like yourself will automatically think that means I am "a fool who has said in his heart, there is no god" - instead of letting me speak for myself.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Mountaineer » Thu Dec 20, 2018 4:36 am

jacksonM wrote:
Wed Dec 19, 2018 6:20 pm
jacksonM wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 3:50 pm
Xan wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 3:46 pm


Definitely I would not. But I'm not denying that I'm intrinsically self-centered and in need of repentance.
I didn't deny that I was intrinsically self-centered. This is common to every creature on planet earth.

I said I didn't think this made me intrinsically evil.

(And BTW, I was so drunk I have no recollection of making the post where I said that though I do remember listening to the song I linked to. As to what the song has to do with the topic I'll have to think about it.)
Okay I think I figured out why I posted that link after listening to it about 25 times over and over again.

My first wife died of cancer. She was a believer but often times she made me feel like she was Job's wife. When things got bad she would castigate me for my faith, asking why I continued to believe. Nevertheless, she stuck with me for 27 years.

So now that she's gone I've come to see her point.

So join me in singing along with my wonderful song of liberation....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cs8i0pzDxYw
jacksonM,

I am sorry for your loss.
DNA has its own language (code), and language requires intelligence. There is no known mechanism by which matter can give birth to information, let alone language. It is unreasonable to believe the world could have happened by chance.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Cortopassi » Thu Dec 20, 2018 8:18 am

Xan wrote:
Wed Dec 19, 2018 9:12 pm
I'm curious where, from what I assume is an atheist worldview, you get objective right and wrong.
My parents, and family I assume. The women in my family generally were very religious, some going to mass every day. The men were mostly not held to that standard. My Dad goes now (86), but for the majority of his adult life went only on Christmas and Easter.

I find it hard to believe that going to church for 1 hour a week, hearing the same scripted mass every time except for a different homily made me understand right from wrong. I went through all the sacraments, and got my little black Catholic book in 2nd grade for communion and distinctly remember the fear put into me by the pages that covered what were venial and mortal sins. A very negative experience.

I am not an atheist. I am agnostic I think...

Is it possible that simple life experiences shaped what I think is right and wrong? That's where I'd think I got most of my information. Easy enough, for me, to have experienced a kid being bullied at school and to determine that was wrong, vs. joining in the taunting. Not saying I was perfect in that, but over time realized it was wrong.

It's possible the Catholic scare tactics of going to hell for pretty much anything shaped me, but that certainly did not shape MY kids, and they are better people than I ever was.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Xan » Thu Dec 20, 2018 9:04 am

I'm not sure we're talking about the same thing, Corto. I'm asking what your source of objective morality in fact is, not how you learned what you currently believe to be right and wrong.

What is the foundation of your belief of what's right and wrong? What is the source of your objective morality? Not: "how did you learn right from wrong". It certainly is possible (almost certain, even) that life experiences shaped what you /think/ is right and wrong, but that's a far cry from objective morality. Everybody might think different things are right and wrong.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Cortopassi » Thu Dec 20, 2018 10:44 am

Xan wrote:
Thu Dec 20, 2018 9:04 am
I'm not sure we're talking about the same thing, Corto. I'm asking what your source of objective morality in fact is, not how you learned what you currently believe to be right and wrong.

What is the foundation of your belief of what's right and wrong? What is the source of your objective morality? Not: "how did you learn right from wrong". It certainly is possible (almost certain, even) that life experiences shaped what you /think/ is right and wrong, but that's a far cry from objective morality. Everybody might think different things are right and wrong.
I'm not sure I would have a clear answer to that? I'm not even sure that I understand what objective morality is? You mean an absolute morality that all humans would agree on? Isn't all morality subjective? If you can help me understand, then I can answer.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Xan » Thu Dec 20, 2018 11:04 am

Well, you said, quoting me:
Cortopassi wrote:
Wed Dec 19, 2018 4:15 pm
Most importantly "This is all about something much deeper and more important, like what our situation is as human beings, how should we treat each other, is there such a thing as objective right and wrong," I agree 100%. I just did not need religion (personally) to understand this and teach my children this. My mother thought/thinks it was impossible to achieve without religion, but her grandkids prove that wrong.
To me this sounded like you agreed there was such a thing as objective right and wrong, and that it's possible to learn it without religion. Maybe I misunderstood? Now you seem to be arguing that there is not objective right and wrong.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Cortopassi » Thu Dec 20, 2018 12:13 pm

I agree that right and wrong can be learned without religion.

Is there an absolute, objective right and wrong? That's much harder, right?

Is the death penalty a good example? Death penalty is I assume against commandments. So anyone following the bible is 100% against the death penalty? For someone, say, like Hitler?
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Xan » Thu Dec 20, 2018 12:26 pm

Cortopassi wrote:
Thu Dec 20, 2018 12:13 pm
I agree that right and wrong can be learned without religion.

Is there an absolute, objective right and wrong? That's much harder, right?

Is the death penalty a good example? Death penalty is I assume against commandments. So anyone following the bible is 100% against the death penalty? For someone, say, like Hitler?
The KJV translated the fifth commandment as "thou shalt not kill", but other translations pretty uniformly go with "murder" rather than "kill". "Kill" is clearly too broad: it would seem to forbid swatting a mosquito. Murder is unlawful killing, as opposed to things like eating meat, the death penalty, being a soldier in war, etc.

As far as the death penalty specifically, Paul says in Romans "But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he [the governing authority] does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God’s wrath on the wrongdoer."

I guess what I'm really aiming for here is a broader point: if there's no God then there is no actual right and wrong. There is no NEED to learn right from wrong if there is no God, other than pragmatism.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Cortopassi » Thu Dec 20, 2018 1:44 pm

So you are saying we pragmatically have organized ourselves into societies that have determined what is right and what is wrong and those beliefs may no necessarily jive with God's right and wrong? If he made us in his image, I would think that what we've organized ourselves into is a pretty decent representation, which in my view is improving for the most part as time goes on. In many areas of the world. Not all.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Mountaineer » Thu Dec 20, 2018 2:17 pm

Cortopassi wrote:
Thu Dec 20, 2018 1:44 pm
So you are saying we pragmatically have organized ourselves into societies that have determined what is right and what is wrong and those beliefs may no necessarily jive with God's right and wrong? If he made us in his image, I would think that what we've organized ourselves into is a pretty decent representation, which in my view is improving for the most part as time goes on. In many areas of the world. Not all.
If I remember my Western Civilization history somewhat accurately, that is what a whole lot of people thought just prior to WWI ... mankind progressing due to the enlightenment, industrial revolution, industrial agriculture, modern art, never be another like the American Civil War, telephone, radio, Nietzsche's God is dead, etc. WWI put a huge "woops, maybe we were wrong about that" into the milieu.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Xan » Thu Dec 20, 2018 2:53 pm

Cortopassi wrote:
Thu Dec 20, 2018 1:44 pm
So you are saying we pragmatically have organized ourselves into societies that have determined what is right and what is wrong and those beliefs may no necessarily jive with God's right and wrong? If he made us in his image, I would think that what we've organized ourselves into is a pretty decent representation, which in my view is improving for the most part as time goes on. In many areas of the world. Not all.
Erm, maybe. I think you're right that much knowledge of the Law is innate. But again, my point is bigger than that. If there isn't God, then there is no right or wrong anyway. What one might call "right" and "wrong" are merely conventions.

Suppose I'm doing something you believe to be wrong. You can't tell me what I'm doing is wrong without appealing to some authority. My "life experience" tells me what I'm doing is right, and yours tells you it's wrong. So, what is the authority that you appeal to in your worldview?
interactive processing wrote: how about harmony? it requires no god to see the difference between being in harmony with the world you live in (and the other people in it) and not in harmony, in harmony being "right" and out of harmony being "wrong" i think there is a very natural, organic and survival based understanding for a right and wrong based on harmony, and it ends up being (no surprise really) very much overlapped with what a believer would say is right and wrong from religious teachings.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Cortopassi » Thu Dec 20, 2018 6:38 pm

Xan wrote:
Thu Dec 20, 2018 2:53 pm
Cortopassi wrote:
Thu Dec 20, 2018 1:44 pm
So you are saying we pragmatically have organized ourselves into societies that have determined what is right and what is wrong and those beliefs may no necessarily jive with God's right and wrong? If he made us in his image, I would think that what we've organized ourselves into is a pretty decent representation, which in my view is improving for the most part as time goes on. In many areas of the world. Not all.
Erm, maybe. I think you're right that much knowledge of the Law is innate. But again, my point is bigger than that. If there isn't God, then there is no right or wrong anyway. What one might call "right" and "wrong" are merely conventions.

Suppose I'm doing something you believe to be wrong. You can't tell me what I'm doing is wrong without appealing to some authority. My "life experience" tells me what I'm doing is right, and yours tells you it's wrong. So, what is the authority that you appeal to in your worldview?
The authority would be my manager, or the police, or the government, or the tribal leader, etc. If we were Neanderthals just fending for ourselves/clan, I suppose it could be a problem. But eventually enough people get together and form some basic consensus, like not cool to rape women in the clan.

At some point someone assigned God as the source to some of these ways of doing the right thing.

But of course, there is still not consensus. Seems it is still ok to kill gay people in areas of the middle east, and kill women for adultery. And that is in the name of how they view God. But I am going down a rabbit hole.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Xan » Fri Dec 21, 2018 10:09 am

MangoMan wrote:
Thu Dec 20, 2018 7:15 pm
Xan wrote:
Thu Dec 20, 2018 2:53 pm
If there isn't God, then there is no right or wrong anyway.
I don't understand that statement. The 'Golden Rule' is a good place to start. My kids, like Corto's, were raised in a non-religious setting, but clearly know the difference between right and wrong and are very moral individuals.
Cortopassi wrote:
Thu Dec 20, 2018 8:18 am
I am not an atheist. I am agnostic I think...
I used to say that exact thing. Until a buddy convinced me that the definition of an agnostic was an atheist with no cajones.
What I'm saying is that either there is some kind of supernatural, or there is nihilism. If there is nihilism, then there is no right and wrong. Your kids have their own idea of right and wrong which you agree with, but suppose they had a different one? Nothing really matters anyway, in the nihilistic scenario. That's what I'm saying.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Xan » Fri Dec 21, 2018 10:44 am

MangoMan wrote:
Fri Dec 21, 2018 10:26 am
I disagree. Just because you don't believe in organized religion, or any God for that matter, does not mean there is no meaning or purpose to life. Meaning and purpose is what you make of it.
Well, a couple of things on "Meaning and purpose is what you make of it":

1) This is a religious truth claim you have made. Do you have anything to back that up?

2) If what you say is true, then you are agreeing with my point: there is no absolute right or wrong without God. If meaning and purpose are what you make of it, then there can be "my right" and "your right" and there's no way to tell which is "more right", because that concept doesn't exist. It's just what we make of it!


EDIT: At this point I'm not even arguing for the existence of God. Just trying to get an honest discussion about the nature of right and wrong. The belief in absolute right and wrong is inconsistent with atheism. That doesn't (by itself, necessarily) mean that atheism is not the correct worldview! Just that you can't have both atheism and absolute right and wrong.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Mountaineer » Fri Dec 21, 2018 12:10 pm

Xan wrote:
Fri Dec 21, 2018 10:44 am
MangoMan wrote:
Fri Dec 21, 2018 10:26 am
I disagree. Just because you don't believe in organized religion, or any God for that matter, does not mean there is no meaning or purpose to life. Meaning and purpose is what you make of it.
Well, a couple of things on "Meaning and purpose is what you make of it":

1) This is a religious truth claim you have made. Do you have anything to back that up?

2) If what you say is true, then you are agreeing with my point: there is no absolute right or wrong without God. If meaning and purpose are what you make of it, then there can be "my right" and "your right" and there's no way to tell which is "more right", because that concept doesn't exist. It's just what we make of it!


EDIT: At this point I'm not even arguing for the existence of God. Just trying to get an honest discussion about the nature of right and wrong. The belief in absolute right and wrong is inconsistent with atheism. That doesn't (by itself, necessarily) mean that atheism is not the correct worldview! Just that you can't have both atheism and absolute right and wrong.
My very, very simplistic view: Right and wrong are determinded by how far you are located from the peak of that thing. If the thing is a mountain, it is easy to determine where you are. If the thing is an iceburg, not so much as it is subject to the winds and currents of an ever moving ocean. If the thing is my own inner reference point, Lord have mercy upon us.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Cortopassi » Fri Dec 21, 2018 1:29 pm

Xan wrote:
Fri Dec 21, 2018 10:44 am
Just trying to get an honest discussion about the nature of right and wrong. The belief in absolute right and wrong is inconsistent with atheism. That doesn't (by itself, necessarily) mean that atheism is not the correct worldview! Just that you can't have both atheism and absolute right and wrong.
There is no absolute right and wrong. How I just convinced myself was thinking about the "peak" statement by mountaineer, but maybe in a different way.

I used to step on ants and squash lightning bugs when I was a kid, just for fun. Now I purposely go out of my way to not kill most bugs, unless it is a spider and my wife needs me to. I don't think twice, usually, that I just killed a living thing, simply because of the scale difference between me and the bug.

As you get to bigger bugs, it's much harder, because they squish/crunch, and you can feel them.

I recall having a BB gun as a kid. Shot a rabbit. But only wounded it, still bleeding. Needed to get my Dad to finish the job. Harder still to take a small animal life.

Can't imagine killing a dog, cow, horse, etc. or a human for that matter.

But back to scale, if you recall Men in Black, how we are all in a universe inside a pendant on some alien. What would it take for that alien to crush the universe and not care? Nothing. not wrong in their view, no big deal. That alien is in effect God.

Does that make me an atheist?
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Mountaineer » Fri Dec 21, 2018 2:03 pm

Cortopassi wrote:
Fri Dec 21, 2018 1:29 pm
Xan wrote:
Fri Dec 21, 2018 10:44 am
Just trying to get an honest discussion about the nature of right and wrong. The belief in absolute right and wrong is inconsistent with atheism. That doesn't (by itself, necessarily) mean that atheism is not the correct worldview! Just that you can't have both atheism and absolute right and wrong.
There is no absolute right and wrong. How I just convinced myself was thinking about the "peak" statement by mountaineer, but maybe in a different way.

I used to step on ants and squash lightning bugs when I was a kid, just for fun. Now I purposely go out of my way to not kill most bugs, unless it is a spider and my wife needs me to. I don't think twice, usually, that I just killed a living thing, simply because of the scale difference between me and the bug.

As you get to bigger bugs, it's much harder, because they squish/crunch, and you can feel them.

I recall having a BB gun as a kid. Shot a rabbit. But only wounded it, still bleeding. Needed to get my Dad to finish the job. Harder still to take a small animal life.

Can't imagine killing a dog, cow, horse, etc. or a human for that matter.

But back to scale, if you recall Men in Black, how we are all in a universe inside a pendant on some alien. What would it take for that alien to crush the universe and not care? Nothing. not wrong in their view, no big deal. That alien is in effect God.

Does that make me an atheist?
Cortopassi, why do you want to know?
DNA has its own language (code), and language requires intelligence. There is no known mechanism by which matter can give birth to information, let alone language. It is unreasonable to believe the world could have happened by chance.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Mountaineer » Fri Dec 21, 2018 2:28 pm

GREETING FROM TIM

On the night of Jesus' birth, an angel began what we've come to call "discipleship." That angel made a divine pronouncement of Jesus' birth and gave explicit directions on how to find this newly born savior. The shepherds heard this pronouncement as just what the angel said it was: "Good News!" Among themselves they chattered, "Let's go! Let's go see! Let's go see what has been made known to us!" Off they went to Bethlehem. Once there, they located the holy family and found the baby... the Messiah... the very Son of God... God himself. Those shepherds had gotten themselves in the presence of Jesus Christ and they were "discipled." In the presence of the Christ-child, manger-laid and well-swaddled, those shepherds knew the truth of the Good News announced by the angel and sung by the heavenly host. Back they went to their darkened hillside and shadowy sheep, but their return was filled with the praise and glory of God because their savior... their Christ... their Lord was truly theirs in the flesh and come to meet them in their lowly estate.

You, too, have an angel... a messenger. This person brings the announcement of where you will be discipled-that is, where you will be in the presence of your savior... your Christ... your Lord. This messenger may be a family member, a neighbor, or your preacher. Whoever that messenger may be, he or she will point to the time and place-a worship service at a local church-where Jesus Christ will be present for you. You may decide or not whether you will "go and see" what has been made known to you. Once there, you will hear that Jesus Christ, your Savior and Lord, comes to meet you at the baptismal font, at the pulpit, and at the Lord's Table. You will have gotten yourself into the presence of Jesus Christ and you will have been "discipled." In the presence of the Christ, no longer a child but died and resurrected, you will know the truth of the Good News announced by your particular messenger: This Jesus is "for you!" At the singing of the final hymn, when the last candle is extinguished, you will-as the shepherds did-return to home and work. That return will be filled with the praise and glory of God because your savior... your Christ... your Lord is truly yours in the flesh and come to meet you in your lowly estate.

The blessings of Christmas rest upon you and yours,


Rev. Timothy J. Swenson
Dean of Chapel
Institute of Lutheran Theology
DNA has its own language (code), and language requires intelligence. There is no known mechanism by which matter can give birth to information, let alone language. It is unreasonable to believe the world could have happened by chance.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Cortopassi » Fri Dec 21, 2018 7:28 pm

Mountaineer wrote:
Fri Dec 21, 2018 2:03 pm
Cortopassi wrote:
Fri Dec 21, 2018 1:29 pm
Xan wrote:
Fri Dec 21, 2018 10:44 am
Just trying to get an honest discussion about the nature of right and wrong. The belief in absolute right and wrong is inconsistent with atheism. That doesn't (by itself, necessarily) mean that atheism is not the correct worldview! Just that you can't have both atheism and absolute right and wrong.
There is no absolute right and wrong. How I just convinced myself was thinking about the "peak" statement by mountaineer, but maybe in a different way.

I used to step on ants and squash lightning bugs when I was a kid, just for fun. Now I purposely go out of my way to not kill most bugs, unless it is a spider and my wife needs me to. I don't think twice, usually, that I just killed a living thing, simply because of the scale difference between me and the bug.

As you get to bigger bugs, it's much harder, because they squish/crunch, and you can feel them.

I recall having a BB gun as a kid. Shot a rabbit. But only wounded it, still bleeding. Needed to get my Dad to finish the job. Harder still to take a small animal life.

Can't imagine killing a dog, cow, horse, etc. or a human for that matter.

But back to scale, if you recall Men in Black, how we are all in a universe inside a pendant on some alien. What would it take for that alien to crush the universe and not care? Nothing. not wrong in their view, no big deal. That alien is in effect God.

Does that make me an atheist?
Cortopassi, why do you want to know?
Easy answer, I am an engineer. I like to understand things. "Faith" that an electronic device I designed is going to work doesn't usually work out well.

Harder answer, I grew up Catholic. Some small part of me wants to believe, but always loses out to the bigger part.
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