Trump as tragicomedy

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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by Maddy » Thu Aug 16, 2018 4:43 pm

One of the greatest things about the free market approach is that it forces consumers to weight the value of the services they want against the value of competing goodies. Seems sensible enough: People are more likely to get what they want when they--not some arbitrary panel applying an arbitrary set of standards--are calling the shots. The morbidly obese person who's required to pay for that coronary bypass is now challenged to evaluate the actual costs of his lifestyle choices. If he opts for McDonalds, why should society care? Similarly, the 81-year-old needing a new kidney might rethink the importance of a few more years of life if the trade-off is that he will have nothing to leave to his children.

And then there's all that cutting-edge newfangled stuff that the everybody supposedly wants. But how sure are we, really, that anybody really wants all that technology? You could offer me $200,000 worth of chemo with all the promises in the world, and I'd turn you down flat. Actually, I'd run like hell. Imagine what would happen if people were actually given a choice (think an insurance "cafeteria plan" where you could opt out of particular expensive interventions) or if people were candidly advised that they could write an advance directive that goes beyond end-of-life stuff. I'll bet you dollar to donuts that neither the medical industry nor the insurance lobby would allow it to happen.
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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by dualstow » Thu Aug 16, 2018 8:44 pm

When I saw this thread was active, I thought for sure it would be about this classy rebuke.
You can’t say *this* man suffers from TDS.

Revoke my security clearance, too, Mr. President

By William H. McRaven
August 16 at 2:44 PM
William H. McRaven, a retired Navy admiral, was commander of the U.S. Joint Special Operations Command from 2011 to 2014. He oversaw the 2011 Navy SEAL raid in Pakistan that killed al-Qaeda leader Osama bin Laden.

Dear Mr. President
...
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions ... 08a33c91b9
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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by Cortopassi » Thu Aug 23, 2018 9:53 am

I have gone from wanting him to drain the swamp, to voting for him, to cringing at tweets, to yelling at the TV, and finally just wanting him to go back home and let somebody else do this job. This is a non-stop reality show nightmare.

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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by dualstow » Thu Aug 23, 2018 11:10 am

Cortopassi wrote:
Thu Aug 23, 2018 9:53 am
I have gone from wanting him to drain the swamp, to voting for him, to cringing at tweets, to yelling at the TV, and finally just wanting him to go back home and let somebody else do this job. This is a non-stop reality show nightmare.
<snip>
I am more frustrated with his supporters than with Trump himself. I understand why a segment of the population voted for him out of hopes for better jobs, healthcare, etc, not racism. And a lot of those people are now disillusioned. It's the subset that continues to defend him that I don't get.

Btw, I'm halfway through Lawrence Wright's 'God Save Texas', a great book by an excellent journalist (and lifelong Texan). There was a page or two on Alex Jones and his influence on Trump. I hadn't realized that all the "lock her up" stuff began with Jones. I've got a problem with his supporters, too. O0
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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by Kbg » Thu Aug 23, 2018 12:39 pm

I usually don't come to this part of the board...but I think a couple of things are obvious.

1. Healthcare in the US is broke, period, full stop.

2. People would rather argue about their political views as to how healthcare "should" work rather than solve the problem practically.

I spent most of my adult life in US socialized medicine (military medicine) and now I am in the private sector and frankly I don't find the private sector approach all that great and in many ways its worse. One thing I miss is that I used to get an email saying I needed to come in for some basic preventative thing (shots, annual check up, blood work, whatever) as the records had all been digitized. Now I have to do crap like find my paper copy shot records (from my military days), go to the internet to find out how often you need boosters, make an appointment and hand update my old paper record...seriously I find this ridiculous.

My personal take is if someone wants cutting edge medical technology the private sector is better (if and it is a BIG if, your insurance company will approve it). If you want the basics done well, my experience with socialized medicine is that it was way better.

I think the real thing is accountability. There are the VA nightmare locations you read about, but there are some mind blowing great VA locations as well. Whether government or private, accountability is lacking in many areas.

Personally I'd love to see a fly off...let CA go fully socialized and let TX go fully private and let's see what happens.
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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by hardlawjockey » Thu Aug 23, 2018 5:09 pm

dualstow wrote:
Thu Aug 23, 2018 11:10 am
Cortopassi wrote:
Thu Aug 23, 2018 9:53 am
I have gone from wanting him to drain the swamp, to voting for him, to cringing at tweets, to yelling at the TV, and finally just wanting him to go back home and let somebody else do this job. This is a non-stop reality show nightmare.
<snip>
I am more frustrated with his supporters than with Trump himself. I understand why a segment of the population voted for him out of hopes for better jobs, healthcare, etc, not racism.
Can you give an example of the racism you are talking about? I hear this all the time but I don't see the evidence for it.
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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by dualstow » Thu Aug 23, 2018 6:08 pm

I said not racism.
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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by ochotona » Thu Aug 23, 2018 6:22 pm

1. Healthcare in the US is broke, period, full stop.

AND

2. Pensions in the US are broke, period, full stop.
3. Long Term Care in the US is broke, period, full stop.
4. Post-secondary education financing in the US is broke, period, full stop.
5. Consumer protections from corporate rip-offs and scams is broke, period, full stop.
6. Child-care is broke, period, full stop.

This is truly the United States of Fork You. My daughter wants to marry a European man and not live in the US... I can see why.
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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by Cortopassi » Thu Aug 23, 2018 8:15 pm

dualstow wrote:
Thu Aug 23, 2018 6:08 pm
I said not racism.
C'mon, he's a 70+ year old guy. I fully expect there is a tape as Omarosa (as much as she is two-faced and hypocritical) said of him saying the n-word.

I don't think it is necessarily racism, but certainly bigotry and meanness.

You're a great person while you are useful, but then are kicked to the curb and shoved under the bus when you aren't useful anymore, with a whole slew of derogatory statements by Trump. I can't imagine what it's like to work for him, or why anyone does unless they are seeing it as a means to an end.

I just saw a clip of Obama at a state dinner with the previous French president on a show. I actually felt longing for those Obama (hell even Bush) days when, maybe he wasn't your cup of tea, but damn at least he was generally graceful, poised, and presidential.
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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by ochotona » Thu Aug 23, 2018 9:20 pm

MangoMan wrote:
Thu Aug 23, 2018 8:54 pm
ochotona wrote:
Thu Aug 23, 2018 6:22 pm
My daughter wants to marry a European man and not live in the US... I can see why.
Not sure what you mean; Europe is further down the road of decline than the US is by virtually any measure.
She spent this summer at an engineering internship in Switzerland. Theoretical measures aside, she saw no suffering. She was not in Greece. She's applying to the same university (Federal Polytechnic @ Laussanne) for grad school. Nothing beats what you see with your eyes, versus what you read on the Interwebs.
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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by Xan » Thu Aug 23, 2018 10:46 pm

MangoMan wrote:
Thu Aug 23, 2018 9:25 pm
ochotona wrote:
Thu Aug 23, 2018 9:20 pm
MangoMan wrote:
Thu Aug 23, 2018 8:54 pm

Not sure what you mean; Europe is further down the road of decline than the US is by virtually any measure.
She spent this summer at an engineering internship in Switzerland. Theoretical measures aside, she saw no suffering. She was not in Greece. She's applying to the same university (Federal Polytechnic @ Laussanne) for grad school. Nothing beats what you see with your eyes, versus what you read on the Interwebs.
Well, Switzerland is hardly representative of the EU...
In fact it's not in the EU at all, is it?
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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by jhogue » Thu Aug 23, 2018 11:18 pm

The Swiss had a national referendum and voted down joining the EU.

They know enough history to have good reason to distrust their neighbors.
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A stock trader asked him, "Groucho, where do you put all your money?" Groucho was said to have replied, "In Treasury bonds", and the trader said, "You can't make much money on those." Groucho said, "You can if you have enough of them!"
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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by flyingpylon » Fri Aug 24, 2018 6:31 am

Cortopassi wrote:
Thu Aug 23, 2018 8:15 pm
I just saw a clip of Obama at a state dinner with the previous French president on a show. I actually felt longing for those Obama (hell even Bush) days when, maybe he wasn't your cup of tea, but damn at least he was generally graceful, poised, and presidential.
Different people seem to want different things from their Presidents. Style is vastly overrated, IMO. It’s certainly a challenge most of the time, but it’s helpful to stay focused on the substance of the Trump presidency instead of all the melodrama. Of course it’s understood that some are legitimately turned off by the substance too.
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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by Kriegsspiel » Fri Aug 24, 2018 7:24 am

If she's going to live in Europe, I don't think she could do any better than Switzerland.
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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by flyingpylon » Fri Aug 24, 2018 8:51 am

Desert wrote:
Fri Aug 24, 2018 7:27 am
Yeah, I have to admit that Trump hasn't caused as much damage as W did. But it's getting closer as the months go by. His constant attacks on the rule of law, the free press, and our alliances, along with kowtowing to despots, are degrading the foundations of our democracy at a faster rate than I foresaw. Fortunately, given the unprecedented level of scandal, I don't think he'll have enough time in office to create as much havoc as W did.
Different people seem to split style and substance in different places.
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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by jhogue » Fri Aug 24, 2018 10:43 am

When was the last time a sitting President who wished to run for a second term lost a primary?:

1.Taft lost a number of primaries to Teddy Roosevelt (and Robert LaFolette) in the campaign for the Republican nomination of 1912. The campaign was so bitter that TR walked out of the convention and ran as a independent. Taft and TR lost to Wilson in a 3-way race that inspired progressive measures like the income tax and the creation of the Federal Reserve. Not a good historical omen for present-day Republicans.

2. As for Elizabeth Warren's proposal to put labor representatives on corporate boards, it has been tried-- with mixed success at best-- in Europe. By law, Volkswagen has labor reps on its board, but that did nothing to stop the ongoing scandal known as "Dieselgate." That said, won't it be fun these next few years watching Pocahontas trying to "out-Bernie" Bernie Sanders?
“Groucho Marx wrote:
A stock trader asked him, "Groucho, where do you put all your money?" Groucho was said to have replied, "In Treasury bonds", and the trader said, "You can't make much money on those." Groucho said, "You can if you have enough of them!"
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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by dualstow » Fri Aug 24, 2018 12:06 pm

MangoMan wrote:
Thu Aug 23, 2018 8:58 pm
One of Bill Clinton's most famous quotes is, "it's the economy, stupid".
It was James Carville who coined that, not Bill Clinton.
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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by jhogue » Fri Aug 24, 2018 12:25 pm

I believe that it was also James Carville who said: "You never know what you'll come up with if you drag a $100 bill through a trailer park." (referring to Paula Jones' successful lawsuit for sexual harassment against Bill Clinton).

There were also some other quotes attributed to him of an even earthier variety. I won't repeat them here, but if Hilary makes another run for the Presidency-- and I do not for a moment put it past her-- they are sure to make the rounds.
“Groucho Marx wrote:
A stock trader asked him, "Groucho, where do you put all your money?" Groucho was said to have replied, "In Treasury bonds", and the trader said, "You can't make much money on those." Groucho said, "You can if you have enough of them!"
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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by Kbg » Fri Aug 24, 2018 1:52 pm

I don't think Trump has been too tough on the press. Honestly, whether the right or left press they are all pretty much non-credible with very little if any actual reporting done anymore. The modus operandi for all of them is fake rage, salacious headlines and a bunch of hired talking heads "representing" both sides. With any "news" published the reader knows before they even start reading what the spin is going to be.

There is a reason 50% of the population views "the other side's" news outlets as non-credible...what I find troubling is everyone is so biased that they can't see that both kettles are a very dark black.

At this current point in time (things could change this), I think an objective non-partisan could on good grounds conclude the following:

1. There is no serious evidence that the Trump campaign colluded with the Russians in any substantive way to influence the election. No doubt they were stupid and looking for dirt on Hillary. I think the the polite term is "opposition research." What we do also know conclusively is that Hillary topped Donald in paying for dirt in terms of its collection methods and the reporting produced.

2. Trump is basically a sleaze bag surrounded by sleazy people, and particularly if they are associates that were not foisted on him as part of the normal political spoils process (e.g. associates before the win, not after the win).
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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by stuper1 » Fri Aug 24, 2018 2:55 pm

Kbg wrote:
Fri Aug 24, 2018 1:52 pm
I don't think Trump has been too tough on the press. Honestly, whether the right or left press they are all pretty much non-credible with very little if any actual reporting done anymore. The modus operandi for all of them is fake rage, salacious headlines and a bunch of hired talking heads "representing" both sides. With any "news" published the reader knows before they even start reading what the spin is going to be.

There is a reason 50% of the population views "the other side's" news outlets as non-credible...what I find troubling is everyone is so biased that they can't see that both kettles are a very dark black.

At this current point in time (things could change this), I think an objective non-partisan could on good grounds conclude the following:

1. There is no serious evidence that the Trump campaign colluded with the Russians in any substantive way to influence the election. No doubt they were stupid and looking for dirt on Hillary. I think the the polite term is "opposition research." What we do also know conclusively is that Hillary topped Donald in paying for dirt in terms of its collection methods and the reporting produced.

2. Trump is basically a sleaze bag surrounded by sleazy people, and particularly if they are associates that were not foisted on him as part of the normal political spoils process (e.g. associates before the win, not after the win).
Very well stated. I agree with you 100%. I'm so sick of hearing people say that Trump is threatening the freedom of the press. Last time I checked there haven't been any death camps set up to receive journalists. The media just can't stand it when someone tells them that they are biased. Their heads explode because they can't stand the truth.
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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by dualstow » Sun Aug 26, 2018 6:07 am

So far, Trump’s talking about the press has been just that: talk. While referring to the press as “the enemy of the people” is disconcerting, and has echoes of the past, Trump hasn’t yet shut down a channel the way Putin has.

A recent poll shows that many Americans agree with that quote. Now that is troubling.
Biased? Yes, very. Enemy of the people? It needs to be improved, not silenced or taken over.
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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by dualstow » Sun Aug 26, 2018 10:32 am

Well said.
Btw, if Trump were to be impeached, I wonder if a Pence presidency would merely be a tragedy without the comedy.
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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by Maddy » Sun Aug 26, 2018 8:05 pm

I, for one, as glad that the majority of conservatives have gotten over their fixation on character. Not that I don't consider character important in a president, but the reality is that there's precious little character to be seen anywhere in public life these days, and the reality of what we're up against demands some pragmatism. Let's face it: The Left has gotten a whole lot of mileage for an awfully long time from the fact that conservatives are. . . well. . . conservative. We've stood there being principled and gotten run over by a team that's not playing by any rules and that has made a mockery of the very notion of principle and character. The game has changed, and we're fighting for our constitutional republic at this point, and if a pimp and three hookers can get our country back on the right track, I'll be right there behind them.
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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by dualstow » Sun Aug 26, 2018 8:11 pm

John McCain had character.
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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by stuper1 » Sun Aug 26, 2018 10:49 pm

dualstow wrote:
Sun Aug 26, 2018 8:11 pm
John McCain had character.
I'm curious to know what evidence you have for this statement? I can find plenty of places on the internet where people claim that McCain was a show-off pilot who never would have crashed in Vietnam if he hadn't been flying inappropriately. And that he then behaved dishonorably and disloyally in prison. That he left his first wife when he found another woman with a lot more money. That he had dishonest dealings related to the savings and loan scandal. That he was only too happy to send America to war whenever possible, thereby enriching the military-industrial complex, but causing many of our young people to come home with limbs missing or worse, not to mention far worse casualty levels among the native inhabitants. And the list goes on.

Now, I don't know whether all that stuff is true. But I also don't know whether the hagiography peddled by the mainstream media is true. I tend to think the latter is just pablum meant to keep the masses happy.
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