Trump as tragicomedy

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WiseOne
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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by WiseOne » Fri Jan 05, 2018 7:55 am

Kriegsspiel wrote:
stuper1 wrote:I saw a comment on unz.com this morning that seemed like a simple, good explanation for why the establishment doesn't like Trump:

"mass immigration is all about propping up the ponzi economy by increasing population and increasing consumer demand….
consumer demand is 70% or more of the economy…and the economy is a confidence-based construct…as long as consumer demand stays up, the economy stays up…and if the economy stays up, the CEOs and shareholders of the big corporations keep making millions and profits stay high, and if profits stay high, then the media keeps making money on ads bought by the big corporations…

that is why the establishment and esp. the media hate trump and the alt-right–we threaten immigration and thus we threaten the ponzi economy"

I can't say that I am an alt-right person, because I don't really know what that means, although I suspect I have some sympathy for some of their ideas such as the above. If alt-right means racist, then definitely I am not alt-right, because I love all people, and in fact am married to a wonderful woman of another race. However, just because I love all people, does not mean that I want all of them living in my country. I think they should stay in their own countries and build them into beautiful nations.

In short, no, Trump (sadly) does not appear to be threatening the military-industrial complex, but he has promised to threaten the immigrationistas who prop up the ponzi economy. I love that phrase "ponzi economy" because it rings so true.
[devil's advocate]
Why would you want the ponzi scheme to stop? Aren't you a shareholder of the corporations, benefiting from higher profits? Don't you like the extra tax revenue that keeps the interstate highways going? Why do you hate cheap food and gasoline? Why would you want immigrants to stay in their own countries instead of paying taxes in America? Don't you own US Treasuries?
[/devil's advocate]
Ponzi economy - love that phrase.

The ponzi scheme works for me, stuper1, and others at the federal and corporate pricing level. But, the mass immigration of unskilled, uneducated, non English speakers is a disaster at the state and local level where they use far more state services and benefits than they can possibly pay back in taxes. I also worry about the long term effects of building up the size of the lower class and proportionally reducing the sizes of the middle and upper classes. The shift is likely going to be very durable, because of the lack of assimilation. Like my dad used to say: "Too many people in the wagon and not enough pulling it."

Immigration at the skilled end of the scale, on the other hand, not only isn't a problem but probably needs to be expanded. About 3/4 of immigration is people gaining entry because they have family members in the U.S. That squeezes out opportunities for people who have something to contribute, and tends to potentiate immigration of groups that are already here in large numbers - which works against the melting pot and ethnic diversity. Restricting the family member loophole and instituting a points system so that immigration is based on value to the US economy & society seriously needs to happen.
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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by stuper1 » Fri Jan 05, 2018 8:39 am

WiseOne, I agree 100%.
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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by moda0306 » Fri Jan 05, 2018 10:34 am

Isn't all of the economy essentially the "ponzi economy?" People don't produce for production's sake. They "produce" for compensation from someone else's consumption. The consumer is either consuming basic needs items, or they're consuming something very discretionary and fleeting, making a "producer" wealthier in-doing-so.

So one could argue a Mexican day-laboror working on a farm to produce food for people is more of a part of the "real economy" than an engineer trying to figure out how to get a Ford Focus to have better performance or comfort traits. Obviously I'm cherry-picking these examples... just to prove a point... not that engineers<Mexicans or anything.

But in the end all production is eventually in the service of some form of consumption. If you think the consumption is largely superfluous and not adding to wealth & health of society, you'll have no argument here (I find consumerist temptations are often fleeting & prove to be of little value but for the quenching of the thirst that knowing the item existed created), but the people peddling those things (aka, "producers") are just-as-if-not-more-so part of that ponzi scheme than the consumer.

Even real "wealth" at a systemic level is often either simply naturally occuring OR is at the consumer level. No company, business, intellectual property, "hard work" in an employment setting, etc, etc would be value but for its ability to feed some sort of consumption activity. It's those consumer items being made up more of durable goods rather than the basic needs of life that adds to net wealth. Every other form of wealth (stock value, for instance) is some sort of present value set upon the future demand of consumers for the item that firm produces. Take away that ultimate consumption value, and the value of the means of production are gone.
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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by Cortopassi » Fri Jan 05, 2018 2:57 pm

You gotta wonder one of these days his twitter posts will have to tick the top of the market.

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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by Mr Vacuum » Fri Jan 05, 2018 4:35 pm

The irony is global ex-US markets are outperforming over the referenced time frame.
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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by ochotona » Fri Jan 05, 2018 9:47 pm

Mr Vacuum wrote:The irony is global ex-US markets are outperforming over the referenced time frame.
By a large margin... over the last year, by about 4.5% !
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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by WiseOne » Sat Jan 06, 2018 8:41 am

I try to ignore Trump's tweets. It's like those TV shows where a character does something so painfully embarrassing you can hardly bear to watch.

Did any of you see the articles about a Yale psychiatrist trying to push the idea of of a diagnosable mental illness?

http://www.newsweek.com/trump-unravelin ... tal-770250

Given that some psychiatric diagnoses (the new version of bipolar disorder, ADHD, any Axis II disorder) can be applied to any human on the planet, and that probably most lawmakers could easily qualify for some Axis II disorders like narcissism, this is a pretty dangerous path to go down. Fortunately, some prominent psychiatrists have come out against this action as unprofessional and frankly a violation of medical ethics. Maybe, but mainly it looks to me like she's over-interpreting in a big way.
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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by stuper1 » Sun Jan 07, 2018 8:51 am

I heard the psychiatrist's diagnosis reported on a mainstream radio station. Talk about fake news. It's ridiculous that such a thing would even get reported by a supposedly reputable news source. I can't remember which station it was. Could have been CBS or NPR. Sometimes I tune in NPR to see if they have any interesting cultural stuff, but I regret it as soon as they report on anything political.
Simonjester wrote: i guess the American Psychological Association doesn't care about the "Goldwater" rule any more..
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goldwater_rule
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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by Kriegsspiel » Sun Jan 07, 2018 11:25 am

Everything's fair when combatting Literal Hitler*.

* I always hear the Lil Hitler soundbyte when I see 'Literal Hitler,' because I'm a freak.
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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by Maddy » Sun Jan 07, 2018 1:32 pm

Now that we're out of the Middle Ages and are rapidly discovering the neurophysiological basis for "mental illnesses," I wonder why the subject matter of psychiatry hasn't been subsumed within the field of clinical neurology. Why do we, as a society, affirm the legitimacy of a profession that routinely saddles people with subjective, life-altering labels that come and go depending upon the mood of the APA membership and that have have no basis whatsoever in science? WiseOne?

Some guesses, off the top of my head:

(1) Medicine abhors uncertainty, and the biological basis for much of what we regard as "mental illness" is still largely unknown.

(2) The people who present with "mental illness" are unpleasant to deal with.

(3) The cost of treating people with "mental illness" according to customary medical standards would be staggering, and the affected population lacks sufficient political clout to challenge the standard of care.

(4) There will always be too much inherent overlap between the neurological and volitional causes of "mental illness" to effectively sort it all out.

(5) There are political reasons for cordoning off a particularly repugnant segment of the underclass onto which a multitude of social evils can be blamed and a multitude of character defects can be projected.

(6) A deep-seated human need for both vengeance and cognitive consonance is satisfied when you can label somebody's predicament in life as their own damned fault.
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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by WiseOne » Mon Jan 08, 2018 6:25 am

Good question, Maddie.

There is a lot of overlap between neurology and psychiatry, and in fact the board exams for each are from the same organization and include questions from both specialties. But they will remain separate for a few very simple reasons: there is a separate residency program for each fixed in stone by Medicaid, and insurance treats the two specialties differently as you noted. The turf wars can be kind of fun - mostly it's about psychiatrists not wanting to deal with a purely neurological problem.

I'm thinking Donald Trump could have a field day suing the Yale psychiatrist for libel, as Goldwater did successfully. Even if she's right I can't understand how this isn't an ethical breach. I think she's trying to sidestep by calling it a "dangerous mental illness" instead of specifying a precise diagnosis.
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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by moda0306 » Mon Jan 08, 2018 9:31 am

WiseOne wrote:Good question, Maddie.

There is a lot of overlap between neurology and psychiatry, and in fact the board exams for each are from the same organization and include questions from both specialties. But they will remain separate for a few very simple reasons: there is a separate residency program for each fixed in stone by Medicaid, and insurance treats the two specialties differently as you noted. The turf wars can be kind of fun - mostly it's about psychiatrists not wanting to deal with a purely neurological problem.

I'm thinking Donald Trump could have a field day suing the Yale psychiatrist for libel, as Goldwater did successfully. Even if she's right I can't understand how this isn't an ethical breach. I think she's trying to sidestep by calling it a "dangerous mental illness" instead of specifying a precise diagnosis.
Can public figures sue for libel/slander? I thought that was pretty much nixed.
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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by Maddy » Mon Jan 08, 2018 12:13 pm

moda0306 wrote:Can public figures sue for libel/slander? I thought that was pretty much nixed.
Yes, but the standard of proof is higher. For a public figure, most states require a showing of actual malice, which is defined as either actual knowledge of the falsity of the statement or a reckless disregard for the truth. In addition, all of the elements of the tort have to be proven by clear and convincing evidence, which is a substantial notch higher than the usual "preponderance of the evidence" standard.

I think this woman has pretty much cooked her goose. Any psychiatrist that would presume to make a diagnosis from sound bites on the TV (or to cavalierly toss around the loaded word "dangerous") does not have a particularly bright future.
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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by Maddy » Mon Jan 08, 2018 7:39 pm

She has a very paranoid look about her. Is there a diagnosis in which paranoia coexists with grandiosity, impulsivity, opposition toward authority, and lack of appreciation for the consequences of her behavior?
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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by WiseOne » Tue Jan 09, 2018 8:06 am

I'm sure there is. I thought her reasoning actually had a rational basis until she got to the part about Trump threatening the survival of the human species. But, I wouldn't presume to make a diagnosis without having done an exam :-).

Ironically, it's been informally observed from the inside that many students who go into psychiatry are, let us say, in need of the free mental health benefit (they all get career-long counseling & psychoanalysis).
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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by Maddy » Tue Jan 09, 2018 5:56 pm

Ah, c'mon, WiseOne. Put on your psychiatrist hat and enjoy the creative license. It's not like you have to do an exam or anything. Just pick five out of nine criteria that look like they fit.
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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by WiseOne » Wed Jan 10, 2018 7:46 am

OK then. You can't go wrong with borderline personality disorder with a hint of narcissism. Of course, that describes pretty much every human on the planet, as we all have those tendencies to some degree.

I honestly don't know what her deal is. It could be anything from a reasonably sane person trying to get some publicity to bring to the promotion table, to someone who is genuinely disordered. However, it's impossible to tell what motivated the disorder. Like, it could be simply a personality disorder, or it could be out and out psychosis. No way to tell.
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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by Maddy » Wed Jan 10, 2018 8:41 am

[deleted--posted to wrong place.]
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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by Kriegsspiel » Wed Jan 10, 2018 8:54 am

Imagine if Trump didn't tweet. The craziness of the past weeks would be out of the way, and we’d see a White House that is briskly pursuing its goals: the shift in our Pakistan policy, the shift in our offshore drilling policy, the fruition of our ISIS policy, the nomination for judgeships and the formation of policies on infrastructure, DACA, North Korea and trade.

It’s almost as if there are two White Houses. There’s the Potemkin White House, which we tend to focus on: Trump berserk in front of the TV, the lawyers working the Russian investigation and the press operation. Then there is the Invisible White House that you never hear about, which is getting more effective at managing around the distracted boss.

I sometimes wonder if the Invisible White House has learned to use the Potemkin White House to deke us while it changes the country.

I mention these inconvenient observations because the anti-Trump movement, of which I’m a proud member, seems to be getting dumber. It seems to be settling into a smug, fairy tale version of reality that filters out discordant information. More anti-Trumpers seem to be telling themselves a “Madness of King George” narrative: Trump is a semiliterate madman surrounded by sycophants who are morally, intellectually and psychologically inferior to people like us.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/08/opin ... eft-region
Libertarian666 faps furiously :P
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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by Tyler » Wed Jan 10, 2018 10:30 am

Maddy wrote: I think this woman has pretty much cooked her goose. Any psychiatrist that would presume to make a diagnosis from sound bites on the TV (or to cavalierly toss around the loaded word "dangerous") does not have a particularly bright future.
On the plus side, she can't have her medical license taken away... because it apparently lapsed in 2015.

http://www.pacificpundit.com/2018/01/09 ... d-in-2015/
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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by Mountaineer » Wed Jan 10, 2018 5:45 pm

Tyler wrote:
Maddy wrote: I think this woman has pretty much cooked her goose. Any psychiatrist that would presume to make a diagnosis from sound bites on the TV (or to cavalierly toss around the loaded word "dangerous") does not have a particularly bright future.
On the plus side, she can't have her medical license taken away... because it apparently lapsed in 2015.

http://www.pacificpundit.com/2018/01/09 ... d-in-2015/
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
DNA has its own language (code), and language requires intelligence. There is no known mechanism by which matter can give birth to information, let alone language. It is unreasonable to believe the world could have happened by chance.
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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by stuper1 » Wed Jan 24, 2018 2:59 pm

I saw this comment posted on unz.com today and agree with it 100%:

"The most important thing Trump may have accomplished is unmasking the media hypocrisy and its sheer contempt towards 80% of the country.

I used to believe that the journalists were reasonable people who tried to report fairly but were moderately biased in favor of liberal opinion. But after Trump got elected (or even during the campaign), the media truly showed its true face. They have tried to destroy him at every turn, misrepresent his every word and action, blame him for everything bad that happens (like the shutdown), and to be quite honest have tried to start an insurrection against him. They are not moderately biased, they are basically a propaganda arm telling lies 24×7 about hate crimes and racism.

Before Trump was elected I had some but not absolute faith in media. Now I believe them to be basically a propaganda arm of the elites. I don’t think my faith will ever recover and I am certain there are many more like me."
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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by moda0306 » Wed Jan 24, 2018 4:19 pm

stuper1 wrote:I saw this comment posted on unz.com today and agree with it 100%:

"The most important thing Trump may have accomplished is unmasking the media hypocrisy and its sheer contempt towards 80% of the country.

I used to believe that the journalists were reasonable people who tried to report fairly but were moderately biased in favor of liberal opinion. But after Trump got elected (or even during the campaign), the media truly showed its true face. They have tried to destroy him at every turn, misrepresent his every word and action, blame him for everything bad that happens (like the shutdown), and to be quite honest have tried to start an insurrection against him. They are not moderately biased, they are basically a propaganda arm telling lies 24×7 about hate crimes and racism.

Before Trump was elected I had some but not absolute faith in media. Now I believe them to be basically a propaganda arm of the elites. I don’t think my faith will ever recover and I am certain there are many more like me."
The media is not materially more embarrassing under Trump than they have been... unless you're particularly offended by bumblingly sliming a bumbling slime-ball.

If someone's first realization that the media is a tool of the elite is seeing how they react to Donald Trump, and before that just believed they were "mostly fair with a modest liberal bias," then they have a lot of reading to do. Or just pull up a dozen Noam Chomsky videos on YouTube if you can't handle the reading.

The "deep-state" has been over-seeing the slaughter of millions of human beings for decades under both parties, yet somehow it took conservatives until 2017 to even know the term. To be fair, most liberals never really knew who they were. So at least conservatives brought the term into the lime-light. Now to get them to admit that every President since Truman (including Mango Mussolini) are war criminals, that the FBI has ALWAYS been a corrupt institution, and that Fox News is just as embarrassing as MSNBC, then we can actually start talking. Until then, nice try... Yes CNN is "fake news." So is Fox News and the New York Post.
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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by stuper1 » Wed Jan 24, 2018 4:38 pm

Moda,

I agree with everything you just posted. I guess I'm just slow. For me, it took this whole Trump thing for the scales to drop off my eyes. So even though he's an odious slimeball, I'm thankful for that. Also, I agree with some of his policies regardless of his personal likeability or lack thereof, most notably the amazing idea that the American president should actually put America first over other countries (e.g., by protecting our borders and economy). Whether he actually believes that himself, of course, is doubtful. Even slow people like me realize by now that all politicians are liars.
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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by Maddy » Wed Jan 24, 2018 7:38 pm

I'm willing to go along with the idea that the media has always been biased, but this is the first generation of reporters that has approached its job, unabashedly, as a political calling. Not only that, the current batch of reporters shares the same nihilistic mindset as the rest of its generation. When you believe that principles are a silly anachronism that belong in a "Leave it to Beaver" world, how possibly could your reporting be principled?
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