Declaration of Independence

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Declaration of Independence

Post by Mountaineer » Sat Mar 18, 2017 6:05 am

Is the basis for the Declaration still valid? Is the Declaration based on religion or politics or both? Are the truths presented still self-evident? Who is the Creator that is referred to? What is Life? What are the Laws of Nature? Who is Nature's God? Do we still have a decent respect to the opinions of mankind? What is Liberty? Why do you think persuit of Happiness is stated rather than just Happiness; Life and Liberty do not have the pursuit modifier? Is it time to throw out the Declaration and start over? What would the basis be if a new Declaration were written today? Were the ideas presented in the Declaration responsible for the rapid journey to greatness of the United States that began with a bunch of rebels who thought their government practiced Tyranny? Would you put your life at significant risk like the Declaration signers did? What is the uniqueness that made the USA great? Why do so many people still want to come here? Do you get tired of reading the Declaration multiple times, hear people discuss it's content multiple times, or desire to have the discussion of religion and politics just go away so you can focus on more pleasant things and not have to think about what comes afterwards?

Interesting questions to ponder when one is able to come up for a bit of fresh air out of the morass and stress of modern life.

... Mountaineer


When in the Course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security. — Such has been the patient sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government. The history of the present King of Great Britain is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States.

More here: http://www.ushistory.org/Declaration/document/
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Re: Declaration of Independence

Post by WiseOne » Sat Mar 18, 2017 11:44 am

Thanks for posting, Mountaineer. This is one of the most inspirational documents in human history, and it's nice to revisit now and then.

I suspect you won't like the answer to some of your questions though. The major figures in the writing of the Declaration were Deists, which is not a Christian religion. It doesn't exist anymore, but remnants of it became part of the Unitarian Church. The term "Creator" and the emphasis on natural law and individual accomplishment are all Deist.

At that time, the idea of a separation between church and state did not exist - so yes, religion and politics were interwoven in this document. The first step in that direction was the Virginia Statute on Religious Freedom which was drafted the following year, and the Constitution wasn't written until several years later. I therefore don't consider the Declaration as a valid excuse to conmingle religion and politics. Even if it were, the religion in question would not be Christianity.

There's another thread on religion in this forum, which I've been careful not to jump into. How about limiting this thread to the specific topic of the separation (or lack thereof) of church and state?
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Re: Declaration of Independence

Post by Mountaineer » Sat Mar 18, 2017 2:36 pm

WiseOne wrote:Thanks for posting, Mountaineer. This is one of the most inspirational documents in human history, and it's nice to revisit now and then.

I suspect you won't like the answer to some of your questions though. The major figures in the writing of the Declaration were Deists, which is not a Christian religion. It doesn't exist anymore, but remnants of it became part of the Unitarian Church. The term "Creator" and the emphasis on natural law and individual accomplishment are all Deist.

At that time, the idea of a separation between church and state did not exist - so yes, religion and politics were interwoven in this document. The first step in that direction was the Virginia Statute on Religious Freedom which was drafted the following year, and the Constitution wasn't written until several years later. I therefore don't consider the Declaration as a valid excuse to conmingle religion and politics. Even if it were, the religion in question would not be Christianity.

There's another thread on religion in this forum, which I've been careful not to jump into. How about limiting this thread to the specific topic of the separation (or lack thereof) of church and state?
WiseOne, thanks for taking the time to respond. I am well aware that some of the founding fathers were Diests. Many of the thoughts that went into the Declaration sprung from the thinking that took birth in the Enlightenment.

I disagree that the separation of church and state did not exist at that time of the Declaration. It is heavily in Martin Luther's (1500s) and John Calvin's (1500s) teachings (that instigated the Reformation) which are themselves based on the Christian Bible. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two_kingdoms_doctrine I do not see how one can objectively separate church and state ... the purpose of the state is to ensure order, reduce chaos and thus enable man to worship, work, raise a family, etc. as he pleases, in peace. Church and State are two sides of the same coin, symbiotic, whether one believes it or not. The evidence is overwhelming if one chooses to look and study, even in the Declaration that is influenced by Diest thinking. My opinion, of course. The issue is somewhat debatable, here are a couple of views: https://www.britannica.com/topic/The-Fo ... ty-1272214 http://www.adherents.com/gov/Founding_F ... igion.html

So, having said all that, answers, and why those answers, to the questions in the original post might prove interesting, especially if one gives evidence for their answers (e.g. more evidence and less opinion). I'm just trying to get some high level calm cool thought going in an area that is usually very hotly opinion driven. Perhaps there is no interest, perhaps people do not wish to be vulnerable, perhaps people would rather devote their time to March Madness. By the way, the Mountaineers beat God's team this afternoon. ;)
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Re: Declaration of Independence

Post by dualstow » Sun Mar 19, 2017 7:14 am

"I do not see how one can objectively separate church and state."

Are you saying it should not be separated? If so, in the U.S., which is the lucky religion that gets to be part of the State?

Is there a model theocracy in the world that you believe we should emulate?
Simonjester wrote: seems to me the constitution is pretty clear in this, and very much takes the right position
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
it prevents the state from establishing a religion and prevents it from stopping anyone from practicing theirs..
the freedoms that the constitution is designed to protect are unalienable (or god given if you prefer) (or natural)
but that is not the same as thing as establishing a religion or being religious, the understanding of unalienable rights may be shared by religion or even have been understood by religion first but they take precedence over religion in general and definitely take precedence over the religion of any person who would prefer a theocracy..
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Re: Declaration of Independence

Post by dualstow » Sun Mar 19, 2017 7:28 am

It seems to me that the problem is this: in the absence of the deity coming down and running the country we have only human beings that try and speak for it. Chances are, it's not going to be Xan or Desert. It's going to be someone possessing less sense and more ambition, and I don't mean the good sense of ambition.

Kind of the same problem with politicians that we already have even with the wall of separation.
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Re: Declaration of Independence

Post by farjean2 » Sun Mar 19, 2017 10:51 am

According the website below, 41 out of the 57 signers of the declaration of independence were slave owners.

So how do you sign a document saying All Men are Created Equal and Endowed by a Creator with a right to Liberty with a straight face?

http://www.mrheintz.com/how-many-signer ... laves.html
Simonjester wrote: i believe in rational/enlightened anarchy, i believe that government is force, and in a world where each man was enlightened and rational enough to take full responsibility for his own actions, government would be unnecessary... just because nobody i know (including myself) is even close to being able to live up to that standard, does not make it false, nor does it mean it is something that we shouldn't be working towards. if i were writing a document to steer the direction of government it would incorporate those truths in order to move us in that direction... and would be perfectly capable of doing so with a straight face regardless of my own shortcomings...

edit to add TLDR (less confusing) version - philosophy can encompass an understanding far beyond the times those doing the thinking live in...
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Re: Declaration of Independence

Post by dualstow » Sun Mar 19, 2017 1:41 pm

My guess is that the framers didn't regard slaves as people, sadly.

It's certainly possible that we will one day look on abortion as infanticide and meat eating as murder, and I say that as a meat-eating pro-choicer. We need time to evolve dialogue and concepts like domestic abuse, whether or not we should spank children, etc.

What seems obvious to some is the tail end of a multicentennial process. And much of it is not the end but instead still under debate.
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Re: Declaration of Independence

Post by Xan » Sun Mar 19, 2017 11:00 pm

That's a good point, dualstow. I'm reminded of pictures like this:

Image

Those are people who worked at Auschwitz. On their lunch break, presumably. Normal people who had been convinced that what they were doing was okay. Here's a fantastic commentary regarding this photograph in particular:
http://aleteia.org/2015/08/28/a-simple- ... our-midst/

Excerpts:
If were a 31-year-old woman with three little kids in a busy house in Germany 1941, would I have fully understood the evil that surrounded me? As a woman living in 2008 I can see the horror that was going on there, but at the time there were some awfully sleek lies being told about the situation; it would have been really, really convenient to let myself be persuaded by the lies and just make the nasty little problem go away by telling myself that it wasn’t really a problem at all.

What if I were living in a time and place in India where it was common and accepted for wives to be burned alive on their husband’s funeral pyres? Or living in Rwanda when an entire race of people were murdered by their neighbors? Or a citizen of pagan Rome where newborn girls were frequently “discarded” with hardly a second thought? The people in those times and places had cheery, sunny days, went to birthday parties and get-togethers with friends with lots of yummy food, and had daily lives not terribly different than our own. There are no records in any of these cases that indicate that average people fully comprehended what was going on around them or were as outraged as they should have been at the atrocities in their midst.

It is sobering to realize that the odds are that I would not have been one of the very few people who saw it all for what it was.
So here is the advice I would offer to my children, and to my children’s children:

Every decade or so, take a look around the society in which you live, and ask yourself if there is any group of human beings who are seen as something less than human. A big tipoff is if dehumanizing words — terms other than “man,” “woman,” “child,” “baby,” or “person” — are used to describe any category of people.

And if you ever see that going on, you might be in the midst of something gravely evil.
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Re: Declaration of Independence

Post by dualstow » Mon Mar 20, 2017 9:48 am

Very interesting. I have seen pictures of the higher ups smiling, and I have read about average German citizens letting themselves slide into comfortable disbelief. However, I haven't seen the photo above before.
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Re: Declaration of Independence

Post by Mountaineer » Mon Mar 20, 2017 12:05 pm

Thank you Xan for that post. It demonstrates how people can fool themselves, or ignore what is in front of their own eyes, in the pursuit of self-happiness. The comment about using language to disguise reality reminded me of how those in the "greatest generation" that I personally knew commonly referred to the Japanese people as "Japs" and showed me Army posters of the Japanese soldier with thick glasses and buck teeth. I'm sure it was intended to dehumanize those we were fighting. Likewise, the German people were referred to as "Krauts" for likely the same reason but with not as much denigration since the Germans were white and the Japanese were those "others". Making the unwanted "other" appear small, unimportant, unworthy, a threat, and different in the eyes of the self-righteous masses has always been a strategy of ruling class - and I must say has been fairly effective. But back to the founding fathers, it was wise indeed to base our nation on the rule of law and point out where that law came from. At that time in our history it probably would have been far more difficult to drum up support to demonize 'God the Creator and the souce of the rights that were espoused' that a mere 'king and his tyranical proclamations'. When one reads the words of the Declaration, it is disappointing but not surprising to see who is being demonized by today's ruling class of Hollywood, Entertainers, Sports Idols, and most celebrities as well as the normal politicians.
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Re: Declaration of Independence

Post by farjean2 » Mon Mar 20, 2017 12:33 pm

I find it interesting how when the constitution was drawn up not that many years after, all mention of a "Creator" was dropped. Apparently they needed to include God in the document to rally the troops against the British, but not so much when they wrote the constitution.

Also interesting is the theology of the Creator mentioned in the declaration. I'm hard pressed to find anywhere in the Christian Bible that God had created us equal and endowed us with any unalienable rights. As for Liberty, both the Old and New Testament offered support for slavery (and NT passages were often quoted by those who supported it). And "the pursuit of happiness"? Hard to find that concept in the Bible either which teaches that the purpose of Man is to serve God. And for that matter, the whole purpose of the declaration was to proclaim rebellion against the rule of the King and the Bible teaches that the powers that be are ordained of God and whoever resists is resisting God, including the paying of taxes.

So I really don't see much connection to the Christian religion in that document. As WiseOne pointed out, they were mostly deists and I suspect if they were with us today they would probably be atheists. Being an atheist probably didn't go over so well back then.
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Re: Declaration of Independence

Post by dualstow » Mon Mar 20, 2017 12:49 pm

They probably fought over it, the wording.
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Re: Declaration of Independence

Post by farjean2 » Mon Mar 20, 2017 1:14 pm

This article seemed particularly relevant to the discussion at hand, when it comes to dehumanizing the enemy and the War of Independence. It just happened to be a war of Christian against Christian so how was that justified......

Very interesting reading on the subject....

http://www.distant-clansman.com/the-swo ... ttlefield/
To reconcile the killing, and therefore defeat, of the enemy with moral and religious doctrine required that soldiers were readied to believe that they were not killing human beings; what is mere extenuating circumstances existed whereby God granted permission to kill.[7] Psychology calls the process of circumventing moral and religious laws on killing the process of dehumanization. It is a trick of the mind employed to a great extent in all recorded wars. The pre-revolutionary and revolutionary decades in America were no different. The pulpit was frequently used as a platform for demonization and dehumanization of the enemy, with such common analogies attributed to Great Britain and her soldiery as Satan, beasts, savages, haughty tyrants, and the whore of Babylon.[8]
If you are looking for exalted language to dehumanize the enemy, the Bible is hard to beat.
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Re: Declaration of Independence

Post by drumminj » Mon Mar 20, 2017 9:46 pm

soldiers were readied to believe that they were not killing human beings;
Makes me think of the BlackMirror episode, for those who have watched the series on Netflix ("Men Against Fire"). Very relevant to this comment...
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Re: Declaration of Independence

Post by Mountaineer » Tue Mar 21, 2017 7:02 am

Desert wrote:
Mountaineer wrote:Thank you Xan for that post. It demonstrates how people can fool themselves, or ignore what is in front of their own eyes, in the pursuit of self-happiness. The comment about using language to disguise reality reminded me of how those in the "greatest generation" that I personally knew commonly referred to the Japanese people as "Japs" and showed me Army posters of the Japanese soldier with thick glasses and buck teeth. I'm sure it was intended to dehumanize those we were fighting. Likewise, the German people were referred to as "Krauts" for likely the same reason but with not as much denigration since the Germans were white and the Japanese were those "others". Making the unwanted "other" appear small, unimportant, unworthy, a threat, and different in the eyes of the self-righteous masses has always been a strategy of ruling class - and I must say has been fairly effective. But back to the founding fathers, it was wise indeed to base our nation on the rule of law and point out where that law came from. At that time in our history it probably would have been far more difficult to drum up support to demonize 'God the Creator and the souce of the rights that were espoused' that a mere 'king and his tyranical proclamations'. When one reads the words of the Declaration, it is disappointing but not surprising to see who is being demonized by today's ruling class of Hollywood, Entertainers, Sports Idols, and most celebrities as well as the normal politicians.
Mountaineer, the people groups being demonized today are immigrants. Red, Brown, Yellow, Black and ... ok, not white. The U.S. just elected a president who ran on demonizing the great "other." Bannon and his ilk built their media empire on blaming immigrants for our problems. I do admit that immigration is a problem. But the demonization we're seeing now is ridiculous and very non-Christian. This administration would be too busy deporting the Good Samaritan to stop and listen to the parable. Christians feeling bad for Trump need to sit and read ... and re-read Matthew 25:31-46. I can understand secular folks backing this guy, but Christians who actually believe the Bible are without excuse.
Desert, I agree with your view (it fits with number 3. below); I just think the problem is much bigger than immigration or Trump - the problem is us - immigration or Trump's tweets are just handy targets to take the focus off the root problem. I would also add to the current list of the demonized 1. the law, 2. Christians, 3. those who have a different worldview than the demonizer. I think 1. is the most significant for the United States because if we continue down that path (e.g. making law from the judicial bench or ignoring the law rather than upholding the law) we are headed for the demise of our country. Re. 2., Christians have pretty much been demonized since the beginning - not really much new there and Christianity will survive. Re. 3., I also think this has been the case for most of human history - it seems there is a brief respite every once in a while, but ultimately the tribal nature takes front seat once more. For me, one solution is to have an external source of truth that a majority of people are willing to uphold; for most of our US history that is God of the Bible (even the Diest Jefferson subscribed to Biblical principles), for the secular that is the law, for much of our history it was both. Now we are throwing both God and law under the bus at a fairly rapid rate. When sinful man (as evidenced by number 3.) throws out external truth for his own corrupted view of truth, basically there is no longer a truth that holds the nation together. I think we can have our best days ahead of us, but only if God OR law OR both are once again valued highly. I think that is what our founding fathers thought too, and those thoughts resulted in the beauty, wisdom, and logic of the Declaration. It's been a mostly good ride (even with all the warts, better than most realistic alternatives I can think of from history).

Edit: After reading l8's post below, I should have clarified that I think the "immigrant" problem is an "illegal immigrant" problem and I took Desert to mean the same thing (pardon me if I misread your intent, Desert) - thus my view that number 1. in my post above about law being the most significant. Being a good Samaritan is being respectful of all humans and kind to them just because they are human; being a good Samaritan means helping people hear the Gospel as well as tending to their physical needs, it is not discounting their misdeeds. One who breaks the law is accountable for the consequences. Illegal acts should not be tolerated whether committed by a legal or illegal immigrant or a citizen, even though on an individual by individual case a judge might choose to show mercy.
Last edited by Mountaineer on Tue Mar 21, 2017 7:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Declaration of Independence

Post by dualstow » Tue Mar 21, 2017 7:46 am

drumminj wrote:
soldiers were readied to believe that they were not killing human beings;
Makes me think of the BlackMirror episode, for those who have watched the series on Netflix ("Men Against Fire"). Very relevant to this comment...
Totally.
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Re: Declaration of Independence

Post by dualstow » Tue Mar 21, 2017 9:09 am

Simonjester wrote:
Desert wrote:
Mountaineer, the people groups being demonized today are immigrants. Red, Brown, Yellow, Black and ... ok, not white. The U.S. just elected a president who ran on demonizing the great "other." Bannon and his ilk built their media empire on blaming immigrants for our problems. I do admit that immigration is a problem. But the demonization we're seeing now is ridiculous and very non-Christian. This administration would be too busy deporting the Good Samaritan to stop and listen to the parable. Christians feeling bad for Trump need to sit and read ... and re-read Matthew 25:31-46. I can understand secular folks backing this guy, but Christians who actually believe the Bible are without excuse.
i haven't heard anyone demonizing immigrants ...illegal immigrants ...sure and rightly so.. the only consistant demonizing i see is by the open border crowd demonizing the anti "ILLEGAL immigrant" crowd as being racist by confusing and conflating immigrant and illegal immigrant as the same thing..

i also have a hard time seeing the illegal immigrants who are committing additional crimes after entering the country illegally, the ones who are getting priority deportation because of their criminal activity, as being good Samaritans..


You really haven't heard anyone demonizing immigrants?
Even in the administration itself, the language Trump used to equate Mexicans and rapists- it could scarcely have been any stronger. A few of us can go back and say, well, technically he was only referring to illegals and criminals when he made this comment and that comment. But, the reality is that there is an uptick in hate that is impossible not to see or hear.

I want criminal illegals deported as quickly as anyone does. While acknowledging that hard-working non-criminal but illegal aliens serve a purpose in our economy, it's unfair to all those who go through the system properly. (And I argue about this with friends whose stance is that some have no choice but the illegal route).

I'll go one step further: if a small country in eastern Europe wants no immigrants, illegal or otherwise, that's their right. Maybe their fears of having their culture overwhelmed has some basis in reality and are not unfounded. If they want to keep out only certain groups and not white Christians, well...not every country is built on the British model or the U.S. model or the Canadian model. If they want a certain group out, and I'm in that group, I don't know that I'd want to be one of the ten people in that group living there anyway.

In the U.S, though, all kinds of people are being demonized. Kids were telling their darker-skinned classmates "You'll be gone when Trump is elected." Headstones are being desecrated in Jewish cemeteries that date back to the 1800s. There is even a huge surge in the black separatist movement (Blacks who hate non-blacks). Not to mention the alt-Right's growth around the world. It's all documented at the Souther Law Poverty Center. Mexicans, Muslims, all kinds of immigrants are being demonized on a daily basis.

I'm not sure how you can not see that, or see it and believe it has nothing to do with the new administration.
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Re: Declaration of Independence

Post by Xan » Tue Mar 21, 2017 9:14 am

I think it depends where you get your news. If you get it from the Southern Poverty Law Center, then anybody who doesn't toe the PC line is a "white nationalist" and gets on the blacklist. All the stories will advance that narrative.

Meanwhile, there are plenty of stories of unprovoked violence against peaceful Trump supporters, which you'll hear about if you get your news in some places and not others.
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Re: Declaration of Independence

Post by dualstow » Tue Mar 21, 2017 9:23 am

I think that's true that it depends on where you get your news, but the SLPC is really fact-based. It's not the ACLU, whose mail goes right in the trash after entering my home.

I haven't looked at each and every group in the SLPC's hate map -- there are hundreds -- but I don't think they casually put someone on that list. https://www.splcenter.org/hate-map
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Re: Declaration of Independence

Post by dualstow » Tue Mar 21, 2017 9:52 am

dualstow wrote: I did find one troubling line in that article.
( Carl M. Cannon, author reprinted at pamelageller dot com) This episode prompted the FBI to drop the SPLC as a resource for hate crime cases (end Cannon quote)
This is below the paragraph about the shooter who wanted to kill Christians at the Family Research Council. I'll defintely definitely want to explore that further.
Consider it explored:
Conservative news outlets are hyping a minor website change to suggest that the FBI is distancing itself from the Southern Poverty Law Center (SPLC) ... in response to criticism from anti-gay organizations. But the FBI has issued a statement debunking that narrative and continues to publicly touts its partnership with SPLC on its website.
from: No, The FBI Hasn't Ditched The Southern Poverty Law Center
https://mediamatters.org/blog/2014/03/2 ... y-l/198645

Continues:
Bedard's report has been touted by a number of right-wing media outlets, including The Daily Caller, Breitbart, WorldNetDaily, and The Blaze, which have framed the change as evidence that the FBI is ending its relationship with SPLC in response to criticism from right-wing anti-gay groups. It's also being celebrated by a number of extreme anti-gay organizations - like the Family Research Council (FRC) and American Family Association (AFA) - that have long resented SPLC for labeling them "hate groups." (Contrary to Bedard's report, those groups have been labeled "hate groups" for peddling falsehoods about LGBT people, not for "favoring traditional marriage."

But the claim that the FBI is ending its relationship, or even its website's relationship, with SPLC in response to right-wing outrage is false. As Good As You's Jeremy Hooper noted, the FBI continues to list SPLC as a partner in the fight against hate crimes on its website.
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Re: Declaration of Independence

Post by dualstow » Tue Mar 21, 2017 10:50 am

I'm on your first link now, The Washington Post piece by the Center for Immigration Studies guy.

My general take, so far remains:

- I don't see any evidence of the SLPC inciting violence, and it appears that they wouldn't put someone on the hate list for simply refusing service to gays. They have to say something about homosexuality being a mental illness. There are standards.

- I think it's fair to label the SLPC a liberal organization. If they didn't list all those Black hate groups and Black supremacist groups, I'd say, hey, something's wrong here. They're being selective about who goes on their list. But that's not the case. They're not a *blindly* liberal organization.

- I'll go so far to say that it's not that much of a stretch that the SLPC could, if they read some of my posts here, classify me as hateful along with Reub and a few others. Specifically, some of my posts in those Religion of Peace threads. (And if that happens, you won't find me linking to their website anymore. O0 )

But, a distinction should be made. There are things about Islam that make me uncomfortable. There are enough people who want to kill us in the name of Islam that we can't keep saying, "We'll they're not *real* Muslims." Because of all the real, tangible terrorism (read:bombs) and all the incitement from people like the recently deceased Sheik Abel-Rahman, I tend to be more on guard, to think more about that than I do the peaceful Muslim majority.

However, I recognize that this is my issue. I need to work on my own bias, not to go around saying all Muslims should be deported. It's very similar to how I got into trouble with Curlew, how he misread my personal feelings as a general statement about rural areas, leading to his abrupt departure.

If someone says they don't want to associate with gays, I don't think they're going to end up on the SLPC's list.
If they say that homosexuality is an illness, or a mental illness, they're probably going on the list.
Makes sense to me.
Should Hirsi (sp?) Ali be cited on the website for saying that Islam is a religion of hatred? I don't know. That's a trickier one.
RIP Marcello Gandini
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Xan
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Re: Declaration of Independence

Post by Xan » Tue Mar 21, 2017 11:16 am

Dualstow, I really appreciate your taking the time to go through those links and offer your opinions.

I'm still not at all comfortable with the SPLC's role as an arbiter of what's hate and what isn't.

And, I must say, I'm not at all clear on why you're drawing your own personal line where you're drawing it. Saying you don't want to hang out with homosexuals is okay, but saying that they have an illness is "hate"? I could see how saying "they should all be exterminated" would qualify. But one doesn't lead to the other. People with bipolar disorder have an illness, and saying so doesn't mean I hate them. Quite the opposite: if I were to say that they DIDN'T have an illness, that what they were going through was their own problem and they could just tough it out, then THAT would be pretty hateful.
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Re: Declaration of Independence

Post by dualstow » Tue Mar 21, 2017 11:32 am

I see your point. But, bipolar disorder *is* an illness.
Well, look, I guess I would have to file that in the same dept as if I were to learn that Mountaineer were privately praying for my soul so that I wouldn't go to hell. It would be well-meaning, but...

Homosexuality is still a mystery in that we don't know where it comes from. But scientific studies do not point to it being a mental illness. One could say they're waiting for the science to catch up, but that could be done with anything.

Outside of science, if someone wants to believe that it's an illness, I don't know that it should be promulgated, unless one is going to go whole hog and follow Leviticus' rules on eating shrimp and injunctions against wearing..whatever. The bad fibers. We don't stone people to death anymore in this country. Why are we picking and choosing what God really meant?

I guess what really matters is rights and the upshot of those beliefs. If someone is violently insane, we restrain them. If someone has a heroin addiction, we either arrest them or treat them -- ongoing debate. If we think homosexuals are ill, we do what? On the light end, maybe we deny them marriage and the benefits that go with such a union, including tax breaks. On the heavier end, there was a documentary recently about kids who get sent off to camps to be "rehabilitated." The reality is that they were being beaten and abused. I think it was in Arkansas.

We should let them live their lives.
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Re: Declaration of Independence

Post by Libertarian666 » Tue Mar 21, 2017 1:34 pm

dualstow wrote:I think that's true that it depends on where you get your news, but the SLPC is really fact-based. It's not the ACLU, whose mail goes right in the trash after entering my home.

I haven't looked at each and every group in the SLPC's hate map -- there are hundreds -- but I don't think they casually put someone on that list. https://www.splcenter.org/hate-map
The splc makes snopes look fair and balanced, which is saying a lot. They are the epitome of sjw insanity.
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