Citizen's Dividend

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pugchief
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Re: Citizen's Dividend

Post by pugchief » Wed Jun 08, 2016 10:22 am

jafs wrote:
MachineGhost wrote:
pugchief wrote:Does anyone think our benevolent government would actually close departments and shrink? History tells us otherwise. Government is like a Hydra. You cut off one head [department] and two more grow in its place.
Maybe not at the formal agency level, but government employees are not immune from technological unemployment either. And the CD will actaully pave the way for getting rid of those parasites.

The CD seems almost like the holy grail in what it can accomplish for "Starving the Beast". O0
And where will all of those formerly employed people work?
They won't need to work, because they will be receiving a citizen's dividend. ;D
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Re: Citizen's Dividend

Post by clacy » Wed Jun 08, 2016 10:49 am

After thinking about this some more,.... I think a CD would likely result in inflation, which would essentially adjust prices to account for the CD.

I think the net result would be that intelligent, hard working people would make good decisions with their CD money, such as investing it, starting businesses, using it for education, etc.

People that don't have the ability to make good decisions would generally make poor decisions with it.

Likely there would be little to no effect on wealth distribution, but we could sleep well knowing that there was a basic safety net for people at least.
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Re: Citizen's Dividend

Post by sophie » Wed Jun 08, 2016 11:02 am

clacy wrote:After thinking about this some more,.... I think a CD would likely result in inflation, which would essentially adjust prices to account for the CD.
Maybe but not necessarily. I don't think increased spending is all it takes to create inflation. For that you need an expansion of the money supply, which the CD would not do. It's going to shift spending from funding government bureaucracy to consumer goods and investment. That may increase some prices but it would be a giant shot in the arm for the GDP, so salaries should rise as well.

Except for jaf of course, since he doesn't need it :-)
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Re: Citizen's Dividend

Post by jafs » Wed Jun 08, 2016 1:01 pm

pugchief wrote:
jafs wrote:
MachineGhost wrote:
Maybe not at the formal agency level, but government employees are not immune from technological unemployment either. And the CD will actaully pave the way for getting rid of those parasites.

The CD seems almost like the holy grail in what it can accomplish for "Starving the Beast". O0
And where will all of those formerly employed people work?
They won't need to work, because they will be receiving a citizen's dividend. ;D
Even better!
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Re: Citizen's Dividend

Post by jafs » Wed Jun 08, 2016 1:02 pm

sophie wrote:
clacy wrote:After thinking about this some more,.... I think a CD would likely result in inflation, which would essentially adjust prices to account for the CD.
Maybe but not necessarily. I don't think increased spending is all it takes to create inflation. For that you need an expansion of the money supply, which the CD would not do. It's going to shift spending from funding government bureaucracy to consumer goods and investment. That may increase some prices but it would be a giant shot in the arm for the GDP, so salaries should rise as well.

Except for jaf of course, since he doesn't need it :-)
Ha ha :D

A rise in prices accompanied by a rise in salaries is still inflation, isn't it? It's just inflation + a rise in salaries. If purchasing power stays constant, then it's not any different than before.

And, government employees spend their money on the same stuff the rest of us do, don't they? They buy consumer goods, and if they have extra money, maybe they invest it as well.
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Re: Citizen's Dividend

Post by jafs » Wed Jun 08, 2016 1:05 pm

How many on here would use a cd to invest directly in start-up businesses or make loans directly to them?

It's not something I'd be likely to do, personally.
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Re: Citizen's Dividend

Post by Xan » Wed Jun 08, 2016 1:41 pm

jafs wrote:A rise in prices accompanied by a rise in salaries is still inflation, isn't it? It's just inflation + a rise in salaries. If purchasing power stays constant, then it's not any different than before.
Except that there's a lot more purchasing power at the "bottom" than there had been before. Isn't that something the left normally salivates over? Don't you think that's fantastic?
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Re: Citizen's Dividend

Post by MachineGhost » Wed Jun 08, 2016 2:13 pm

jafs wrote:One could argue that giving money to people that don't need it, like you and me, is by definition fraudulent in some ways. And I can guarantee that any system we put in place will generate some people trying to scam the system - that just seems like human nature to me.
Today's non-need, is tomorrow's need. Be careful what you wish for. Medical bankruptcy is still a problem nowadays, despite ObamaCare.
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Re: Citizen's Dividend

Post by sophie » Wed Jun 08, 2016 2:20 pm

I'm curious. How do you scam a system that pays out a fixed amount to each American citizen?

The point is to reduce scamming by making the rules much, much simpler. "Scam" is what currently happens in large handfuls at every government welfare program in existence.
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Re: Citizen's Dividend

Post by Pointedstick » Wed Jun 08, 2016 2:22 pm

Claim fake children, perhaps?
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Re: Citizen's Dividend

Post by MachineGhost » Wed Jun 08, 2016 2:27 pm

jafs wrote: You said investing improves productivity - the kind of investing most of us talk about is investing in the stock market, which is a secondary market. If you meant you'd invest directly in a start up business, that's a different story. But it's not part of the pp investments, which involve stock market index funds. So if you took your $15K and invested in your pp, there's no direct connection to companies.
I was pretty clear in how I defined investing and didn't refer to the PP definition, so you're making up a strawman. Nor did I bait you. I'm smart enough to understand secondary markets are bullshit for direct value creation.
It depends again on what kind of gold investments - most people on here buy gold coins. So if I go into my dealer and buy some coins, then hold them for a while and sell them back to him/her, isn't that a secondary market? It's a bunch of coins trading hands just like stocks do, not somebody buying gold bullion from a mine in South America.
It doesn't take much -- if any -- productivity to issue financial assets as they're created out of thin air. But to get a commodity the value has to be transferred all the way down the totem pole to the mining worker at the bottom. He has to get paid to dig it out and any/all tools that makes his job easier will improve his productivity and that of society's.
I remember when people were upset about buying South African Kruggerands, don't you?
Not sure what you're referring to. Over apartheid? No one was forced to buy Krugerrands, though. Blood diamonds was more of an unknown thing until that movie came out. Does that mean I shouldn't ever buy any Krugerrunds minted before apartheid was abolished?
And, please don't tell me what to discuss in my posts - I don't do that to you.
Well, you seem to keep bringing up strawman arguments about things I didnt say, so its getting a little tiring. Read what I say as literal and don't infer anything beyond that. It's a little different between me joking about you being a "token liberal" and you miscontruing what I've said.
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Re: Citizen's Dividend

Post by MachineGhost » Wed Jun 08, 2016 2:32 pm

jafs wrote:I just don't see that happening much, if the dividend is high enough to live on (in your version it's substantially higher than in sophie's).
Well maybe you better research the effects of welfare currently. It has similar effects like the CD would when you exclude the massive "losers" like Detroit, West Virginia, etc. which is a cultural issue not one of money.

I just advocate that the dividing line is between low class and lower middle class. I don't know exactly what the amount would be. The focus shouldn't be on the amount anyway, but getting people out of poverty and eliminating all of the social negatives it has on everyone. Do we have to limit the CD to extreme poverty only? It'll be like $15K to me, not that useful and they probably won't work because it just moves them from extreme poverty to less extreme poverty. There has to be an incentive to take risks and it seems to me like there is a sweet spot for that in terms of income. Not too high, not too low. In other words, we want people in the lower class to come out of the shadows and the biggest way that happens is they get a job and join the larger social community.

BTW, being impoverished is a constant and stressful risk. It doesn't leave room to take on anymore.
Last edited by MachineGhost on Wed Jun 08, 2016 2:50 pm, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: Citizen's Dividend

Post by pugchief » Wed Jun 08, 2016 2:34 pm

sophie wrote:I'm curious. How do you scam a system that pays out a fixed amount to each American citizen?

The point is to reduce scamming by making the rules much, much simpler. "Scam" is what currently happens in large handfuls at every government welfare program in existence.
Pointedstick wrote:Claim fake children, perhaps?
Or deceased people. That has worked well for the Democratic voters in Chicago for decades. I don't see why it shouldn't work on the free money level, too. :P
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Re: Citizen's Dividend

Post by MachineGhost » Wed Jun 08, 2016 2:37 pm

jafs wrote:And where will all of those formerly employed people work?
Beats me, but I sure hope they will work on more productive jobs than being parasites draining the taxpayer. That's what so wonderful about the CD. It's a win-win for everyone!
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Re: Citizen's Dividend

Post by MachineGhost » Wed Jun 08, 2016 2:39 pm

pugchief wrote:They won't need to work, because they will be receiving a citizen's dividend. ;D
Harm reduction, baby!
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Re: Citizen's Dividend

Post by MachineGhost » Wed Jun 08, 2016 2:41 pm

clacy wrote:After thinking about this some more,.... I think a CD would likely result in inflation, which would essentially adjust prices to account
But inflation depends on the gap between implementation of the CD and the actual risk of technological unemployment (which is essentially infinite productivity in a post-capitalist, post-scarcity world). It might actually be better to implement it right now while there is a lack of aggregate demand and there's an oversupply of goods/services.
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Re: Citizen's Dividend

Post by MachineGhost » Wed Jun 08, 2016 2:45 pm

sophie wrote:Maybe but not necessarily. I don't think increased spending is all it takes to create inflation. For that you need an expansion of the money supply, which the CD would not do. It's going to shift spending from funding government bureaucracy to consumer goods and investment. That may increase some prices but it would be a giant shot in the arm for the GDP, so salaries should rise as well.
It would obviously worsen the situation in health care and education even more, but maybe then we'll finally get some real reform? Unless Trump gets to it first. :)

Inflation is not exclusively a monetary phenomenom, though. It's an excess demand vs supply dearth problem. It applies to money just as anything else.
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Re: Citizen's Dividend

Post by MachineGhost » Wed Jun 08, 2016 2:47 pm

Pointedstick wrote:Claim fake children, perhaps?
We're not covering children for that exact reason!!! It would be insane.
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Re: Citizen's Dividend

Post by jafs » Wed Jun 08, 2016 2:53 pm

MachineGhost wrote:
jafs wrote: You said investing improves productivity - the kind of investing most of us talk about is investing in the stock market, which is a secondary market. If you meant you'd invest directly in a start up business, that's a different story. But it's not part of the pp investments, which involve stock market index funds. So if you took your $15K and invested in your pp, there's no direct connection to companies.
I was pretty clear in how I defined investing and didn't refer to the PP definition, so you're making up a strawman. Nor did I bait you. I'm smart enough to understand secondary markets are bullshit for direct value creation.
It depends again on what kind of gold investments - most people on here buy gold coins. So if I go into my dealer and buy some coins, then hold them for a while and sell them back to him/her, isn't that a secondary market? It's a bunch of coins trading hands just like stocks do, not somebody buying gold bullion from a mine in South America.
It doesn't take much -- if any -- productivity to issue financial assets as they're created out of thin air. But to get a commodity the value has to be transferred all the way down the totem pole to the mining worker at the bottom. He has to get paid to dig it out and any/all tools that makes his job easier will improve his productivity and that of society's.
I remember when people were upset about buying South African Kruggerands, don't you?
Not sure what you're referring to. Over apartheid? No one was forced to buy Krugerrands, though. Blood diamonds was more of an unknown thing until that movie came out. Does that mean I shouldn't ever buy any Krugerrunds minted before apartheid was abolished?
And, please don't tell me what to discuss in my posts - I don't do that to you.
Well, you seem to keep bringing up strawman arguments about things I didnt say, so its getting a little tiring. Read what I say as literal and don't infer anything beyond that. It's a little different between me joking about you being a "token liberal" and you miscontruing what I've said.
I'm going to stop here, because we're both getting a bit testy, and I don't think anything further would be interesting or useful.
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Re: Citizen's Dividend

Post by jafs » Wed Jun 08, 2016 2:57 pm

I can think of any number of ways people might try to scam a cd system.

Non-citizens might try to get it.
People might try to get more than their share - by faking ss#'s, claiming ones of dead people, etc.
If it uses sophie's idea of higher taxation, then rich and upper middle class people would try to get out of paying those taxes.

I'm sure there are more, but that's just off the top of my head.

I'll stop now, though - it's clear that some of you are very attached to this idea. I think it's an interesting one, but nowhere near the panacea that some think.
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Re: Citizen's Dividend

Post by MachineGhost » Mon Jun 13, 2016 5:29 pm

Image

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Re: Citizen's Dividend

Post by dualstow » Fri Mar 17, 2017 7:58 am

It just occurred to me that too many people would become professional protesters.
(shudder)
The annual inflation rate for the United States is 1.4% for the 12 months ended January 2021
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Re: Citizen's Dividend

Post by pugchief » Fri Mar 17, 2017 8:34 am

dualstow wrote:It just occurred to me that too many people would become professional protesters.
(shudder)
When I first read that, my brain saw posters and I thought, well, it wouldn't be so bad if we got some fresh blood here. D'oh!

But to what you actually wrote, I think there may already be way too many 'unemployed*' people doing that 'job'.


*Do full-on SJWs really want a real, productive job? Or are they happier spending their time protesting, etc, for their cause? Serious question.
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Re: Citizen's Dividend

Post by dualstow » Fri Mar 17, 2017 8:37 am

I feel the same.
The annual inflation rate for the United States is 1.4% for the 12 months ended January 2021
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Re: Citizen's Dividend

Post by Mountaineer » Fri Mar 17, 2017 9:13 am

pugchief wrote: *Do full-on SJWs really want a real, productive job? Or are they happier spending their time protesting, etc, for their cause? Serious question.
I know several full-on SJWs that have jobs (I can't say how productive they are though, I have no information on that). The SJWs I know tend to be liberal-progressive religious types that think they (not God) can create heaven on earth now (which in my opinion is very non-Biblical). They tend to be affiliated with congregations that have endorsed same-sex marriage, abortion, worship the creature instead of the Creator, and have or endorse homosexual pastors (again, in my opinion very anti-Scriptural positions).
The darkness will always war against the light. And the light must always war against the darkness. You either let the darkness overcome you, or you overcome the darkness. The mission: Whatever darkness, compromise, or ungodly thing still exists in your life, no matter how small, today, root it out. There is no middle ground.
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