Modern Monetary Theory

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moda0306
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Re: Modern Monetary Theory

Post by moda0306 »

TBV wrote: Your description is similar to how Bernanke explained why his approach is different from what Japan did.  He stressed that this is not simply a means of financing government debt, but rather a more-market oriented stimulus.  Perhaps so, but it would sound more convincing if the Treasury were not simultaneously piling up unprecedented amounts of debt.
Is it really government "debt" if it wasn't even necessary to begin with and the currency is issued by our government and ours alone.  I think we're thinking in gold-standard terms here... which way should we be viewing this??:

"Our government taxes and borrows to fund its activities, but it has help in that it can "print money" when it wants so it can cheat a little."
or
"Our government issues money by printing and THEN taxes and borrows as a monetary tool. It isn't revenue constrained, and can't go broke unless it decides to.  Further, net private savings requires net public debt, so trying to solve our private balance sheet problems by raising taxes and/or cutting spending domestically is self-destructive."

I tend to think our sovereign fiat currency is better described by the latter statement than the former.  
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Re: Modern Monetary Theory

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The reason gold can't be equally flexible is because the implications of an ounce of gold being worth a football stadium or Wal-Mart is ludacris.  You need a certain amount of a currency to operate a certain size economy.  Gold doesn't have infinite value, but through innovation and wealth creation, the products of our economy theoretically have an infinite amount of value.  Gold can't realistically function as a medium of exchange in a society with so much wealth OTHER than the gold.  You can talk about "not knowing the value of a dollar" all you want, but the legal construct we've surrounded ourselves by has worked to provide very limited inflation for almost 30 years, and as long as the government has the ability to tax the dollar, it can pretty much make sure we care about having enough in our pockets.  Obviously sound stuardship of a currency is necessary, but a gold-standard is not only unreasonable given our economy's size, it's almost a logical falicy, because precisely when it is needed by a society, it can be broken.  Why?  Well the same authority that you gave to the powers that be to enact a gold standard can take it away.
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Re: Modern Monetary Theory

Post by MediumTex »

Why not think about a gold standard with fractional reserve lending, high reserve ratios and underlying reserves of gold, not dollars?

Banks would be graded on their gold reserves and their reserve ratios.  Dollars would be pegged to gold, but there would be some flexibility tied to the amount of lending going on.

In an emergency the Fed could flood the market with gold...until it ran out, of course.
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Re: Modern Monetary Theory

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MT,

I will try to digest that.

Cripes... I can't even think anymore... the more you learn the less you know.
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Re: Modern Monetary Theory

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Moda: HMMM. A gold standard is no good because government can abolish it!!  Now whose fault is that?  And if the government can do such a thing, as it has done in the past, in what way does it comfort us to know that the alternative is to give the government even more of a free rein than a gold standard would allow?

As my final comment on this thread, let me respond to the idea that our system has succeeded in providing very limited inflation over the last 30 years.  Check this site over at BLS: http://www.bls.gov/data/inflation_calculator.htm.  It shows that it would take $267.26 in today's money to buy what $100 bought in 1980.
Last edited by TBV on Mon Mar 14, 2011 7:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Modern Monetary Theory

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Several observations here.

1. I think we can all agree that the current monetary system is very complex and deeply strange.  The author of the piece lists the following people as not understanding how the current system works: 99% of Congress, Alan Greenspan, Ben Bernanke, many (most?) of the officials of both the Fed and Treasury.  Money itself, on the other hand, is a very simple idea that worked well for thousands of years.  What has changed to justify this greater level of complexity?  Is it a net benefit to society to turn money into something this mystical?

2. Human behavior and action is often complex and full of nuance.  However, successful, robust systems must be the opposite.  Effective systems should be simple and elegant.  If you show me a system filled with as much nuance as what is described in the article, I'll show you a system that is filled with flaws (many of which can't even be properly predicted.)  Remember that according to the author, the system is too complex for Ben Bernanke to grasp, much less the average man on the street.  Is this an ideal system?

3. The dollar has lost more than 95% of its value since the establishment of the Federal Reserve system.  Does this sound like an ideal system that has protected us from inflation?

4. The author believes that net private sector savings is impossible without net public sector deficits.  This is a bizarre idea and only seems true if you use a very contorted definition of "savings".  Let's say that my government runs no deficit for the year, taking in $1,000 in taxes and spending $1,000 (please allow me to briefly indulge in this small government fantasy.)  My income that year is $200, of which I save $100.  I use that $100 to purchase 10 shares issued by company X, which makes widgets.  Company X uses this money to make a capital investment in fancy widget-making robots.  My savings today yields greater productivity tomorrow.

You could argue that the equities are some kind of "liability" of company X, but I don't know what value there really is to such a definition.  It seems like sophistry.  I consider those shares to simply be a piece of the company that I have purchased.
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Re: Modern Monetary Theory

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Lone Wolf,

I think that while household & business finance is relatively straightforward, macroeconomics is extremely complicated and sometimes goes by a different set of rules.  I really think Macroeconomics is to Business/household economics what quantum physics is to Newtonian physics (for lack of a better comparison).  I mean, for all its flaws at the government level, if businesses and individuals were allowed to print money to pay debts and tax their neighbors at gunpoint we'd be looking at economic collapse.

I'm not condoning big government, but simply stating that, as evidenced by several prosperous (temporarily?) economies with managed fiat currencies that maybe the "keep it simple stupid" strategy doesn't work that well when dealing with anything relating to macroeconomics.
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Re: Modern Monetary Theory

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One of the tenets of MMT appears to be that government debt is "fundamentally different" than private debt.  I'd say it's not.  The only difference in the case of a fiat currency is that the issuer of the currency has a printing press.  Any debt we accrue must be paid back in the future via taxation (traditional payment) or a devaluation of the currency in which the debt is denominated (printing press.)  There can be no other way.

Furthermore, no public debt (or even fractional reserve banking) is required in order for meaningful savings to take place within an economy.

While the interactions that take place in an economy are of course complicated, the rules governing basic economic interaction are not.  It's down to supply and demand, needs and desires, and looking far enough ahead to consider the consequences of a policy that might unfold down the road.

Any model ought to either be governed by sound logic or provide extraordinary levels of empirical proof.  I don't believe that MMT meets either test.  I also don't find that it makes it any easier to think clearly about economics, although this might be a personal preference.  What do you find most appealing \ enlightening about this model?  I found it unconvincing and quite unwieldy.
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Re: Modern Monetary Theory

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I'm going to merge some of the other MMT discussion into this thread, but let's try to keep these MMT-related posts in one place if we can.

Thanks.
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Re: Modern Monetary Theory

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Lone Wolf, "The author believes that net private sector savings is impossible without net public sector deficits.  This is a bizarre idea and only seems true if you use a very contorted definition of "savings".  Let's say that my government runs no deficit for the year, taking in $1,000 in taxes and spending $1,000 (please allow me to briefly indulge in this small government fantasy.)  My income that year is $200, of which I save $100.  I use that $100 to purchase 10 shares issued by company X, which makes widgets.  Company X uses this money to make a capital investment in fancy widget-making robots.  My savings today yields greater productivity tomorrow."

I'm just trying to get my head around your refutation of the MMT "net save" concept. As I understand it in your widget world, you saved but the economy overall hasn't saved because the $100 you used to pay for the widget-making is still in circulation. If instead of buying  newly issued  shares you had bought pre-existing shares from another investor who had used the proceeds to buy government bonds, then that would be MMT "net saving" BUT that would have required the government to have issued those bonds instead of taxing as much as they spent. Alternatively if you buying into the fixed pool of pre-existing "widget inc"  stock had bid up the price of that stock, then even if the $100 was still circulating amongst stock traders, then that resultant increase in the "widget inc" market capitalization would also contribute towards MMT "net saving" BUT you saving that $100 would have meant you consuming only $100 worth rather than $200 worth of stuff. That loss of sales would exactly offset your saving giving no net saving across the economy as a whole.

From what I can see, MMTers are not saying that net saving is required for capital investment. In a zero-net saving world there could still be just as much money spent training staff and building machines and infrastructure. When Apple saves cash that contributes to net saving see:

http://www.asymco.com/2011/01/19/20-bil ... next-year/

If Apple were to spend that money on building more factories or training staff then that would not. Am I in a muddle over this?
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Re: Modern Monetary Theory

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LW,

The fact that we have a printing press does fundamentally change the debt IMO, because there is no default risk cycle of higher interest rates due to higher chances of default resulting in yet even more chance of default.  Further, it's the equivalent of saying you having a counterfeit operation in your basement not fundamentally changing your debt and finances.  Of course it would.  Debts would be non-issues.

The fact that devaluation can be done to reduce real debt loads and fund government is huge.  Usually, a country will need more deficit spending if it runs a negative trade balance.  To try to do this with a pegged default-risk currency is extremely risky.  This devaluation is a huge tool at this time, as our country can, of course, spend domestically, helping our citizens, while foreign governments decide how to cope with the devaluation of our currency... one of their options being to buy stuff from the US.  This is exactly, in my estimation, how we want this system to function.

While I still have to work my head around the savings/investment terminology, I understand that your coconuts represent savings and your stock ownership resulted increased productivity.  I'll see if I can find something that fleshes out your concerns on that.
Last edited by moda0306 on Tue Jul 26, 2011 10:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Modern Monetary Theory

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Interesting, but possibly redundant, MMT article...

http://www.levyforecast.com/assets/Profits.pdf

Edit:

I take that back... probably one of the better MMT articles I've read... really getting into what "savings, "investment," and "wealth" and "financial assets" should be looked at as.  LW, this might be more along the lines of what you're looking for in terms of their fuzzy definitions.

Definitely worth the read.
Last edited by moda0306 on Fri Aug 12, 2011 4:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Modern Monetary Theory

Post by stone »

Moda, thanks for the link. Is it even a MMT biased document though? Would Loan Wolf or Tortoise actually dispute the excerpt below? I guess Tortoise would argue that firms will view falling profits today as a sign of a reversal to come in due course.

"For example, public officials, forecasters, and investment advisors often use the savinginvestment
identity to argue that increases in personal and government savingwill increase
investment in plant and equipment, thereby improving the economy. Since saving equals
investment, they reason, policies that increase personal or government saving must
increase investment. By contrast, the profits perspective immediately highlights the
omission of business saving fromsuch analyses, and it emphasizesways inwhich changes
in personal and public saving will influence profits without necessarily affecting total
saving or investment. Higher nonbusiness saving reduces business saving and therefore
profits, rather than increasing investment.Moreover, weaker profits are likely to lead to
less investment and, therefore, less total saving."
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Re: Modern Monetary Theory

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stone wrote: Moda, thanks for the link. Is it even a MMT biased document though? Would Loan Wolf or Tortoise actually dispute the excerpt below? I guess Tortoise would argue that firms will view falling profits today as a sign of a reversal to come in due course.
I do often point out that the economy has inherently counterbalancing forces, but I would certainly not argue that every firm should view falling profits as a sign of a reversal to come in due course. For many firms, the trend of falling profits never reverses because the firm's entire industry is simply getting swept into the dustbin of history. Look at what happened to the horse-drawn carriage business after mass-produced automobiles were invented. The long-term implications of falling profits are not necessarily the same for every firm.

Regarding the excerpt in your post, I share the authors' disagreement with the notion that "saving must increase [business] investment." I'd clarify by saying that saving doesn't cause business investment; it merely allows it. In a world of finite resources, building a new factory requires resources that someone (or some group) must set aside rather than consume in the present. First someone saves some resources, then business investment is able to occur using those resources. Whether it actually will occur, and how quickly, is a different question.

Here's an excerpt from the paper that illustrates a core problem I have with it:
Neither the pro?ts perspective nor the pro?ts equation is a magic tool that ?awlessly predicts the future. A forecaster still must judge how much businesses will invest, how much consumers will save, how large federal tax revenues will be, how well domestic ?rms will fare in export markets, and so forth. Moreover, the government data on both pro?ts and the pro?t sources are not perfect, resulting in an error term in the national accounts and introducing some imprecision into the analysis.
Some imprecision? :o

What the authors should really be explaining in the excerpt above is that we don't just have a single equation here with several independent variables. Since the variables are most certainly not independent of each other, what we really have is a system of many different equations in several different variables that depend on each other via complex, nonlinear relationships.

The authors go on:
Nevertheless, the pro?ts perspective enables forecasters to see how any given scenario will affect corporate pro?ts.
Of what predictive use is a macroeconomic equation if it comes stamped with a giant disclaimer that getting it to spit out realistic results requires one to plug in exactly the right combination of highly interdependent--and very likely immeasurable--macroeconomic variables? Isn't that almost the same as having... well, no equation at all?

Economics is a social science, like psychology and sociology, so attempts to quantify it with any kind of precision are futile. The reason so many macroeconomists are employed is because the government pays their salaries (either directly [gov't agencies] or indirectly [gov't grants to academia]). The government uses them pretty much solely to lend academic and popular credibility to the idea that constant government intervention in the economy is necessary.
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Re: Modern Monetary Theory

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Tortoise, thanks for clarifying your interpretation of all this. I must admit I still don't get your viewpoint. I thought that the authors were talking about profits in aggregate across the entire corporate sector. As such it seems to me a fairly precise question to ask whether household saving in aggregate reduces or increases business saving and so capacity for investment in aggregate in a closed economy with a particular level of government deficit/surplus. In contradiction of the excerpt, you do actually seem to be saying that a household zero net saving rate equates to companies having no saving rate. I do think that this is not a pedantic point but rather has chalk and cheese differences in the policy implications. It relates to whether tax cuts that just get saved have any chance of doing anything other than creating damaging asset price bubbles.

There are accounting identities that are not fudge-able. My understanding is that household saving does not aid company saving nor company investment. I think one thing that is very important is that a household zero net saving rate is not the same thing as saying that there is no spare productive capacity in the system. You can have spare productive capacity even if there is net household dissaving. Currently there is massive spare productive capacity. The reason why firms are not creating jobs by creating new medicines, building recycling plants, repairing bridges or whatever is certainly not due to a shortage of productive capacity.
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Re: Modern Monetary Theory

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Tortoise, for me the key concept to grasp is that time unused does not become time that we can somehow draw upon in the future. I think that is the key fallacy behind the idea that net saving is productive. Money is a largely a claim on peoples' time. Saving is simply not engaging those man-hours. Once time has past it has gone forever. Obviously it is useful to be able to shift our claims on other peoples time from when we are earning to when we are old or whatever but that is very different from advocating net saving across the entire economy.
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Re: Modern Monetary Theory

Post by melveyr »

I found the connection between labor and revenue fascinating. It makes total sense. If all of our wages came from the corporate sector, than even if we spent all of our wages the corporate sector would still not turn a profit because our wages are an expense of the corporate sector. Doh! Don't know why I never thought of that before.

When the workers save some of their money, the profits get even worse. In order for the corporate sector to actually make a profit, their has to be an external source of demand (unless the workers decide to borrow money to consume today). Foreigners buying goods can do this, or a domestic government can supply this demand.

If you look at corporate America right now, I think we are seeing the hoarding of cash/delveraging Something has to fill the gap. I don't think our government understands this :( They think they are on a gold standard and are revenue constrained. Maybe Greenspan will talk some sense in to them, he gets that we can always print money at least. The government has to aggressively deficit spend to fill the gap of saving (and de-leveraging for many entities).

Oh, but government is always evil and inefficient. Let's just have a government-free great depression  :(
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Re: Modern Monetary Theory

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melveyr, to my mind what you are advocating amounts in essence to an attempt to confiscate saved wealth by dilution. I fear that that is extremely economically distorting and doomed to failure. If it makes economic sense to confiscate saved wealth, then that is something that should be faced up to and to my mind a case could be made to do so in an honest transparent manner rather than by stealth via dilution.
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Re: Modern Monetary Theory

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We need spending without additional taxation, a deficit. Remember this is not a gold standard. Under a gold standard, money comes from the private sector through gold mining. These problems are self correcting under a gold standard.

Also, if businessmen were more comfortable with bartering it would not be an issue. Imagine a dentist and a lawyer. The dentist needs legal advice, and the lawyer needs a root canal. If they both have no money, they will assume that their needs cannot be met because they are ingrained to the idea that they must acquire the medium of exchange. If they have no money, no business will be done. However, if they decide to barter, they can trade the root canal for the legal advice. They will create an economic profit. We don't barter anymore, so people will almost always try to acquire the medium of exchange before business is done.

Now, money can only come from the government. There are no private sector dollar miners.We need more money, hence, more government spending. Remember, it is impossible for the corporate sector to turn a profit (measured in dollars) without an external source. The workers in the corporate sector clearly cannot spend more than their wages without going into debt. It is physically impossible.

Government spending is necessary to fill the gap. You seem worried about inflation, but that does not always result from the creation of more money. Remember how the dentist and the lawyer did not do business because they had no money? Those goods and services essentially did not exist, because they had no money. If more money was injected into the system, goods and services would spring up. Remember, inflation only results when more money is chasing around the same amount of goods and services. However, the creation of more money can clearly facilitate the creation of new goods and services.

Inflation will only result if the creation of money outpaces the value of new goods and services. This only happens when the economy is closer to full capacity.

EDIT: If you think about, involuntary unemployment would never arise under a barter system. Why would it? There is always work to be done.

Unemployment is a monetary phenomenon. We are ingrained to acquire the medium of exchange before we exchange goods and services. If no one had dollars, and we were still ingrained to acquire dollars first, than unemployment would be 100%.

Because we have a fiat system. Money can only come from the government. It is going to have to be a government solution, unless we return to a barter system. This is just how a fiat economy works. Government is necessary to play a bigger role. It doesn't have to be this way under a gold standard because the private sector can mine for currency. However, we can't deny that we are not a gold standard.
Last edited by melveyr on Sat Aug 13, 2011 1:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Modern Monetary Theory

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Melveyr, I think what you mean is that net saving requires government deficits not that profits require government deficits. If net saving happens by the household sector whilst there is no government deficit, then the corporate sector must make up the difference by dissaving (making a loss).

The wikipedia article http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Micha%C5%82_Kalecki has a really neat concise description of the profit equation. I think you would really appreciate that stuff. Ironically that description is about profits when there is NO government (ironic because it was written by a socialist). It shows that in such a situation profits are determined by the spending of those who own the companies. That is why it is essential to my mind that ownership is widely distributed such that profits don't just get saved. Spending on physical investment by companies also leads to profits.

It is the asset bubbles and economic distortions that come from prolonged deficit spending that concerns me. There would be no need for deficit spending if for every person who was saving, someone else was dissaving. If people just saved for retirement or to pay for education or whatever, there would not be pronounced net saving.
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Re: Modern Monetary Theory

Post by melveyr »

I think it is both stone.

Think of the income statement of the entire global corporate sector as one entity. They pay out wages, these wages are an expense on their income statement. Even if all of these wages turned into revenue, that would still not be enough to turn a profit.
Last edited by melveyr on Sat Aug 13, 2011 2:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Modern Monetary Theory

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Melveyr "Think of the income statement of the entire global corporate sector as one entity. They pay out wages, these wages are an expense on their income statement. Even if all of these wages turned into revenue, that would still not be enough to turn a profit."

We are in agreament, wages do not contribute to profits (as shown in the link I put above too). Profits in the absence of a government or foreign sector can only come from the spending of the OWNERS of the companies with profits coming from the spending of profits received by the owners or by the companies spending on building more factories or whatever.
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Re: Modern Monetary Theory

Post by stone »

Melveyr, what I'm saying is entirely within MMT. Check out the Kalecki profit equation posts on billy blog. It is simply that MMTers propose that net saving needs to be accomodated whilst I'm saying that you'll never be able to accomodate it because the harder you try to, the more efficient the financial system will become at harvesting deficits however large they become.
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Re: Modern Monetary Theory

Post by Tortoise »

melveyr wrote: Think of the income statement of the entire global corporate sector as one entity. They pay out wages, these wages are an expense on their income statement. Even if all of these wages turned into revenue, that would still not be enough to turn a profit.
This vastly oversimplified view that profits and wealth are ultimately created by flows of funds is simply incorrect.

The ultimate source of wealth creation is not the mere exchange of resources, paper money, or credit. Wealth is created by the combination of (1) ideas and (2) the harnessing of physical fuel sources like fossil fuel deposits, photosynthesis, etc. to make the ideas a reality.

The exchange of resources, money, and credit merely serves as "lubrication" for the moving parts in the engine of the global economy. The gasoline that ultimately powers the engine are the ideas and physical energy sources. What good is an engine with unlimited lubrication if the fuel tank is empty? Think of the printing of money as the injection of more lubrication into the engine. It certainly may help in some cases if the engine is grinding to a halt due to lack of lubrication, but it does not actually power the engine.
Last edited by Tortoise on Sat Aug 13, 2011 4:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Modern Monetary Theory

Post by melveyr »

stone wrote: Melveyr, what I'm saying is entirely within MMT. Check out the Kalecki profit equation posts on billy blog. It is simply that MMTers propose that net saving needs to be accomodated whilst I'm saying that you'll never be able to accomodate it because the harder you try to, the more efficient the financial system will become at harvesting deficits however large they become.
I think you are right. I have a lot more reading to do  ;)
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