Thoughts on gay rights?

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Re: Thoughts on gay rights?

Post by Greg » Tue Feb 23, 2016 9:06 am

DISCLAIMER: Religious-tilt

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_a ... l_behavior
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_m ... l_behavior

I myself view homosexuality as an abnormality that may be affected by genetics and environment. From a Biblical perspective, we all have issues, and certain things that we need to suppress such as the desire to lie, or anger, or alcohol addiction, etc. Not everyone has the same issues that plague them and some people have to deal with homosexuality. We should still be kind towards everyone and help those we can regardless because I am to love my neighbor as I do myself.

I find it interesting however from these wikipedia articles above that they speak about homosexual behavior, not turning it into a lifestyle like humans do. (almost more like a bi-curious/bisexual versus fully homosexual). I feel like people then make an identity/culture out of homosexuality and it keeps on dividing further and further (people wanting to change genders now, etc.) As above again, everyone has their own self-conscience and they know themselves better than I know them so I can't fully feel what they feel. They may feel a very strong pull towards homosexuality that I just don't have, but then they might not have the pull towards video game addiction that I had as a young teenager (I make this comparison not to slight homosexuality, just that everyone has different things that they have to deal with).

As for gay marriage, I see the point of marriage as to provide a stable family unit for having and raising children. That way, the children are able to learn about both men and women, what each are, what makes each one special and unique in their differences. You're not going to get that day-to-day experiences without having both sides of the story. While I think it is honorable for a gay couple to want to have a child, they just can't provide the experiences to fully round out the child unless there is another close member of the opposite sex that the child can look to and learn from.

I think homosexuals should be treated as what they are: imperfect humans, just as the rest of us are imperfect humans with each of our own addictions and shortcomings. Marriage, for me, is to provide for a stable unit that each person is now financially/emotionally/physically tied to to make an ideally unbreakable bond for children. I'm not stating you have to have kids if you get married, but just that marriage makes it harder to break-out of the family if you have kids and decide it isn't for you and want to get out of the "contract".

I believe God gave Adam a helper so that he wouldn't be alone and that they would be able to do more and better things by sticking together. I think that Adam can have another Adam, or Eve another Eve, and they can both rely on each other for help to live life more comfortably, but that this shouldn't be considered as marriage.

Relativism is a slippery slope.
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Re: Thoughts on gay rights?

Post by BearBones » Tue Feb 23, 2016 9:16 am

WiseOne wrote: Sounds to me like the person you want to talk to is your sister.
+1
But you may be doing that.

Btw, watch a bit of the documentary "growing up trans" if you get a chance. Really sad. Omg. To say that an 8 year old is "choosing" to live a totally agonizing life of wishing to be the opposite sex is preposterous to me. Not quite the same, I know, but I do think that a certain percentage of the population gets "wired" in a way that is not conducive to propagation. Or to an easy, happy life.

In this context, I feel bad for your sister. And for you.

Here is my last word for this thread. Negative judgements of others generally don't help very much. For others or for ourselves. The world would be so much a better place if we all just focused more on own own imperfections and less on those of others.

And when we do feel judgement or irritation? It usually comes from an insecurity or weak place within ourselves. Take a really close look.
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Re: Thoughts on gay rights?

Post by Libertarian666 » Tue Feb 23, 2016 9:16 am

Michellebell wrote: I wonder if my sister will be happy as a lesbian.  She claims she's bisexual but hasn't tried dating any men.  Why would she when lesbianism is so "cool" these days?  But her first girlfriend had a lot of issues and tried to commit suicide several times.  Her next girlfriend struggled with gender identity and has been going back and forth between identifying as a female vs a male. 

I know another woman who married a woman and then left her because the relationship was so unstable.  She identified herself as a lesbian and became friends almost exclusively with lesbians.  When she started dating men again (she's married now), her friends were really angry at her and her boss even sexually harassed her.

You might say these are isolated cases, but I think they're still worth thinking about.  My sister may not know if she might actually like being in a relationship with a man.  I don't think she'd be able to attract a man honestly.  She is beautiful, tall and thin, blond...a classic beauty like Grace Kelly, but she looks like a lesbian (short hair, dresses like a boy, gets mistaken for a boy sometimes, etc.).  Shes also genius-level smart.
If she is that pretty, she shouldn't have any trouble attracting a man, unless her personality is quite off-putting. However, of course it would help if she dressed like a woman and grew her hair longer.

BTW, this is another way in which men and women are quite different. Most men are either straight or gay, and the straight ones don't have any interest in sex with another man. Women seem to be considerably more fluid in that regard.
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Re: Thoughts on gay rights?

Post by Greg » Tue Feb 23, 2016 9:19 am

I'll be reading this a bit later, but it seems interesting to learn more about:

http://www.gaychurch.org/homosexuality-and-the-bible/
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Re: Thoughts on gay rights?

Post by dualstow » Tue Feb 23, 2016 9:44 am

I haven't looked at the link lately, although I think I've read that page before. This is not a reply to your specific post, Greg, but the link reminds me that once upon a time males did not exist in nature. In *any* species. Reproduction still happened. And there are cases of all females of a species on an island, where the females transform into a male and reproduction happens.
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Re: Thoughts on gay rights?

Post by Michellebell » Tue Feb 23, 2016 11:08 am

WiseOne wrote: Sounds to me like the person you want to talk to is your sister.  She's probably just as confused as you are, and would appreciate hashing out her thoughts with you.  Here's a suggested place to start: whether your sister feels she has "chosen" a homosexual lifestyle.  She may not feel comfortable with that description.  I do suggest trying not to be judgmental when you're talking to her, just listen.  There are a lot of judgmental red flags in your post.

The question of legal status for gays is sort of secondary to the above, I think.  Interesting topic to be sure, but not your main concern just now.  But, let me put to rest the idea that homosexuals are inherently mentally disordered.  They're approximately as disordered as everyone else.

Like BearBones, I hope very much that a certain medical student on this board goes into radiology or pathology.  Better opportunities for part-time work and no interaction with patients.  Some of whom might be gay.  Incidentally, about 10% of his medical school classmates and teaching attendings are gay, and chances are he doesn't know who those are.
I am very aware my post sounded judgmental.  I would never say these things to a gay person I cared about.  I'm sharing my thoughts here because I feel safe on here discussing it.  I really never say these things aloud.

Part of me wants to talk to her about it but I'm pretty afraid to do it, just as I think my dad is afraid to do it.  My husband's cousin recently almost married a woman, to the shock of everyone, as she had always dated men before.  She called off the wedding due to different goals regarding having kids, and now she is engaged to a man.  As far as I know, most people didn't anything to her about it though when she was a lesbian.  I think they were too afraid.
Last edited by Michellebell on Tue Feb 23, 2016 11:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Thoughts on gay rights?

Post by Michellebell » Tue Feb 23, 2016 2:48 pm

Greg wrote: DISCLAIMER: Religious-tilt

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_a ... l_behavior
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_m ... l_behavior

I myself view homosexuality as an abnormality that may be affected by genetics and environment. From a Biblical perspective, we all have issues, and certain things that we need to suppress such as the desire to lie, or anger, or alcohol addiction, etc. Not everyone has the same issues that plague them and some people have to deal with homosexuality. We should still be kind towards everyone and help those we can regardless because I am to love my neighbor as I do myself.

I find it interesting however from these wikipedia articles above that they speak about homosexual behavior, not turning it into a lifestyle like humans do. (almost more like a bi-curious/bisexual versus fully homosexual). I feel like people then make an identity/culture out of homosexuality and it keeps on dividing further and further (people wanting to change genders now, etc.) As above again, everyone has their own self-conscience and they know themselves better than I know them so I can't fully feel what they feel. They may feel a very strong pull towards homosexuality that I just don't have, but then they might not have the pull towards video game addiction that I had as a young teenager (I make this comparison not to slight homosexuality, just that everyone has different things that they have to deal with).

As for gay marriage, I see the point of marriage as to provide a stable family unit for having and raising children. That way, the children are able to learn about both men and women, what each are, what makes each one special and unique in their differences. You're not going to get that day-to-day experiences without having both sides of the story. While I think it is honorable for a gay couple to want to have a child, they just can't provide the experiences to fully round out the child unless there is another close member of the opposite sex that the child can look to and learn from.

I think homosexuals should be treated as what they are: imperfect humans, just as the rest of us are imperfect humans with each of our own addictions and shortcomings. Marriage, for me, is to provide for a stable unit that each person is now financially/emotionally/physically tied to to make an ideally unbreakable bond for children. I'm not stating you have to have kids if you get married, but just that marriage makes it harder to break-out of the family if you have kids and decide it isn't for you and want to get out of the "contract".

I believe God gave Adam a helper so that he wouldn't be alone and that they would be able to do more and better things by sticking together. I think that Adam can have another Adam, or Eve another Eve, and they can both rely on each other for help to live life more comfortably, but that this shouldn't be considered as marriage.

Relativism is a slippery slope.
I found this response very interesting.  As a civilized society, there are norms and values that promote stability and well being.  We all are filled with natural urges but we have to decide which ones to indulge and which ones to control.  We have to control overeating and desires to commit adultery.  I personally have a binge drinking problem, which is why I have not had a drink in eight years.  Should I say I was born with the alcoholic gene and throw up my hands and say there is nothing I can do about it because it's not my choice?  Yes I can't enjoy the occasional glass of wine or have fun at a party like other people around me, but I have accepted that I have a problem with this and have chosen to abstain from it. 

As far as cultural ramifications of homosexuality, I am not worried about under population of course.  However I am worried about the percentages of children that are raised in stable heterosexual married families.  The nuclear family is no longer being seen as the highest standard for raising kids.  It is becoming just one of so many options, each considered just as good as any other.  I feel like our society is viewing families as a free-for-all, make-it-up-and-call-it-a-family type deal.  Two dads? Sure.  Two moms? Sure.  Open relationships? Sure.  How about polygamy?  This is all in the name of being tolerant and nonjudgmental. 

People are becoming afraid to teach their values to young people who are now exploring so many avenues believing they are all as good as any other. 

However I might feel completely different if my attraction toward men were viewed as taboo by the rest of the world and I really felt I had no choice in the matter. 
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Re: Thoughts on gay rights?

Post by Greg » Tue Feb 23, 2016 5:02 pm

Michellebell wrote: As far as cultural ramifications of homosexuality, I am not worried about under population of course.  However I am worried about the percentages of children that are raised in stable heterosexual married families.  The nuclear family is no longer being seen as the highest standard for raising kids.  It is becoming just one of so many options, each considered just as good as any other.  I feel like our society is viewing families as a free-for-all, make-it-up-and-call-it-a-family type deal.  Two dads? Sure.  Two moms? Sure.  Open relationships? Sure.  How about polygamy?  This is all in the name of being tolerant and nonjudgmental. 

People are becoming afraid to teach their values to young people who are now exploring so many avenues believing they are all as good as any other. 

However I might feel completely different if my attraction toward men were viewed as taboo by the rest of the world and I really felt I had no choice in the matter.
Sexual relativism I think can be an especially "slippery slope" because it can be perverted so easily. There is no objective standard then as to what is correct and that which is not. We state that we make laws to be objective but even those are then crafted by people that have subjective opinions, the issue of the "problem of the majority". For instance, I am a male that is heterosexual and I have a wife and we have a monogamous relationship. This to me, is the standard. You are either a.) single, b.) married to a person of the opposite sex.

By saying that homosexuality is acceptable, there is no stop point. Using this logic, why wouldn't it be different to say a male is attracted to female children. Is this any worse than homosexuality? One is an age of consent issue, the other is of two people who's parts physically don't fit together (i.e. two keys or two locks versus a lock/key combo).

By accepting all of this, as I said, there is no endpoint. Anything can be acceptable if you can get the majority to side with you on it, or a vocal and strong minority. Look at NAMBLA for instance, is that wrong? Why is it wrong? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Ame ... ssociation. Objective morals I think are very important for determining how we ought to behave. Subjective morals can different from person to person which really makes them useless. 2+2 = 4 to one person and 2+2=5 to another. It collapses on itself.

I think this also goes into the debate of are people inherently good or bad? Based on my religious views and common sense (in my opinion), believing people are inherently bad makes sense. That's why we have to live by laws and our society is organized by laws. Without laws, things fall into chaos because we're imperfect creatures.

Life isn't fair and we all have desires that we either can't quench or shouldn't quench. Not everyone is the same, but we should all be helping out others as we also help ourselves to reach towards what we morally ought to be, not what we always want to be.

The point is, pluralism, or a variety of ideas, are not all correct. You are still fundamentally missing a side of the story when you're growing up and by steering away from this, there are other things that negatively pop up.
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Re: Thoughts on gay rights?

Post by jafs » Tue Feb 23, 2016 5:04 pm

Can you really not see the huge difference between homosexuality and pedophilia?

One involves consenting adults, and the other doesn't, and that's a major difference between them.
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Re: Thoughts on gay rights?

Post by Greg » Tue Feb 23, 2016 5:07 pm

Michellebell wrote: People are becoming afraid to teach their values to young people who are now exploring so many avenues believing they are all as good as any other. 
While I'll have more to read up on this, I thought these were interesting:

http://www.frc.org/issuebrief/new-study ... s-research (Statistics on Homosexual families with children).

And a separate one for non-nuclear families

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politic ... rimes.html
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Re: Thoughts on gay rights?

Post by Greg » Tue Feb 23, 2016 5:15 pm

jafs wrote: Can you really not see the huge difference between homosexuality and pedophilia?

One involves consenting adults, and the other doesn't, and that's a major difference between them.
Consent is a subjective term too. Consent has changed a lot over time and even looking at today, there are different ages of consent in different countries. Couldn't you make the case that someone younger is "mature" enough that they can consent? Whose age of consent is correct?

Again, what is worse, if I'm a 28 year old man, to have sexual relations with a 27 year old man, or a 17 year old female (assuming 18 is age of consent). Why is the one with the 17 year old worse if the consent is based on societies preference of the time?
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Re: Thoughts on gay rights?

Post by dualstow » Tue Feb 23, 2016 5:51 pm

Greg wrote: Consent is a subjective term too. Consent has changed a lot over time and even looking at today, there are different ages of consent in different countries. Couldn't you make the case that someone younger is "mature" enough that they can consent? Whose age of consent is correct?

Again, what is worse, if I'm a 28 year old man, to have sexual relations with a 27 year old man, or a 17 year old female (assuming 18 is age of consent). Why is the one with the 17 year old worse if the consent is based on societies preference of the time?
I think the short answer is, you have to draw the line somewhere. I think the age minimum in Brazil is 12. It's not that one of the examples is worse than the other. If you're a straight male, there's a good chance that sex with a 17-yr-old girl will feel more normal, and one feels what one feels. But, if it's statutory rape, then that would be the illegal choice of the two.

And of course, if something is illegal, that doesn't necessarily mean it's morally wrong. It's what someone decided was illegal. People smoke pot all the time. They take their chances with the possible legal repercussions from getting caught. Alan Turing, the man who cracked Nazi Germany's ENIGMA code and father of artificial intelligence, was chemically castrated because he was openly gay in Britain at a time when homesexuality was illegal.
I've often thought about how arbitrary it feels that we have the death penalty in some of our 50 states and not others, but I have never felt that a crime is more "wrong" in one state than in another.
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Re: Thoughts on gay rights?

Post by Michellebell » Tue Feb 23, 2016 7:26 pm

jafs wrote: Can you really not see the huge difference between homosexuality and pedophilia?

One involves consenting adults, and the other doesn't, and that's a major difference between them.
JAFS I have noticed some comparisons of these by several people here and I agree.  They are completely different.  Pedophilia is undoubtedly harmful to society and must be treated as such. 

Homosexuality is different than pedophilia, which occurs within heterosexuals as well as homosexuals... But as far as recognizing and striving for the most stable families, heterosexuality appears to me to be the best option, and our culture is no longer promoting it as such.

Honestly I am pretty embarrassed to be even saying these things, as I've always tried to be tolerant and open-minded.
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Re: Thoughts on gay rights?

Post by Fred » Tue Feb 23, 2016 7:29 pm

jafs wrote: Can you really not see the huge difference between homosexuality and pedophilia?

One involves consenting adults, and the other doesn't, and that's a major difference between them.
If "consenting adults" is the line you draw then I think you would have to be in favor of legally allowing polygamy.

If not, what would be the reason for it?

(For the record, I'm not against the idea on religious grounds myself since I'm not religious but just wonder what you think.)
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Re: Thoughts on gay rights?

Post by jafs » Tue Feb 23, 2016 7:30 pm

And I am.

As well as polyandry and group marriages.
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Re: Thoughts on gay rights?

Post by jafs » Tue Feb 23, 2016 7:32 pm

Greg wrote:
jafs wrote: Can you really not see the huge difference between homosexuality and pedophilia?

One involves consenting adults, and the other doesn't, and that's a major difference between them.
Consent is a subjective term too. Consent has changed a lot over time and even looking at today, there are different ages of consent in different countries. Couldn't you make the case that someone younger is "mature" enough that they can consent? Whose age of consent is correct?
It's not a subjective term.

Age of consent is, almost unavoidably, a somewhat arbitrary line to draw, but it has to be done, as dualstow comments.  And, pedophilia is wrong because it involves children who are unable to understand and consent to sex.

There's no reason at all that homosexuality leads to pedophilia, any more than heterosexuality does, and so it's not a good reason to condemn homosexuals.



Again, what is worse, if I'm a 28 year old man, to have sexual relations with a 27 year old man, or a 17 year old female (assuming 18 is age of consent). Why is the one with the 17 year old worse if the consent is based on societies preference of the time?
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Re: Thoughts on gay rights?

Post by jafs » Tue Feb 23, 2016 7:34 pm

Michellebell wrote:
jafs wrote: Can you really not see the huge difference between homosexuality and pedophilia?

One involves consenting adults, and the other doesn't, and that's a major difference between them.
JAFS I have noticed some comparisons of these by several people here and I agree.  They are completely different.  Pedophilia is undoubtedly harmful to society and must be treated as such. 

Homosexuality is different than pedophilia, which occurs within heterosexuals as well as homosexuals... But as far as recognizing and striving for the most stable families, heterosexuality appears to me to be the best option, and our culture is no longer promoting it as such.

Honestly I am pretty embarrassed to be even saying these things, as I've always tried to be tolerant and open-minded.
I see no reason that a straight family is more likely to be stable than a gay or lesbian one.  Infidelity and divorce statistics among straight people show that pretty clearly.

Stable families are a good thing, if the families are happy ones, of course.
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Re: Thoughts on gay rights?

Post by Fred » Tue Feb 23, 2016 7:42 pm

jafs wrote: And I am.

As well as polyandry and group marriages.
Okay, now we are getting somewhere. Do you think this should be the universal law on planet earth? As long as it's between consenting adults and doesn't hurt anybody it should be allowed? If a group of people went off to live on an island because they believed in traditional morality as they see it, according to the Bible, and wanted to build a society on those principles, should they be left alone or should your view of morality be imposed on them?
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Re: Thoughts on gay rights?

Post by Michellebell » Tue Feb 23, 2016 8:07 pm

Libertarian666 wrote:
Michellebell wrote: I wonder if my sister will be happy as a lesbian.  She claims she's bisexual but hasn't tried dating any men.  Why would she when lesbianism is so "cool" these days?  But her first girlfriend had a lot of issues and tried to commit suicide several times.  Her next girlfriend struggled with gender identity and has been going back and forth between identifying as a female vs a male. 

I know another woman who married a woman and then left her because the relationship was so unstable.  She identified herself as a lesbian and became friends almost exclusively with lesbians.  When she started dating men again (she's married now), her friends were really angry at her and her boss even sexually harassed her.

You might say these are isolated cases, but I think they're still worth thinking about.  My sister may not know if she might actually like being in a relationship with a man.  I don't think she'd be able to attract a man honestly.  She is beautiful, tall and thin, blond...a classic beauty like Grace Kelly, but she looks like a lesbian (short hair, dresses like a boy, gets mistaken for a boy sometimes, etc.).  Shes also genius-level smart.
If she is that pretty, she shouldn't have any trouble attracting a man, unless her personality is quite off-putting. However, of course it would help if she dressed like a woman and grew her hair longer.

BTW, this is another way in which men and women are quite different. Most men are either straight or gay, and the straight ones don't have any interest in sex with another man. Women seem to be considerably more fluid in that regard.
My sister is objectively pretty but her style very much lowers her attractiveness to men right now, IMO.  My dad has said repeatedly that she looks much prettier with long hair but her mom says she likes it short.  She  looks like a lesbian and has joined with a group of friends that are very much into the whole gay/experimental scene. I see her having to branch away from that group to have a chance to date men.  She's also pretty shy so I see it being unlikely for her to get a boyfriend unless she makes more of an effort to attract men.  When she was growing up she seemed just like any other healthy little girl.  I don't even know how I'd broach the topic with her as she is a very sweet person and I don't want to sound harsh, but I would like her to at least try dating boys just to have a chance to make a fair comparison.

I agree women's preferences are much more fluid than men's.  I don't know if chose to be heterosexual, at least somewhat.  It's honestly hard for me to say for certain how it happened.

When I was in middle school I was more attracted to girls than boys.  I found the boys not as physically good-looking and also not fun to be around.  I noticed that a lot of other girls would talk about which ones were cute, and to me none of them were cute.  It could be because I started puberty later than some of the other girls. I also found some girls quite beautiful and was a little fixated on them.

Now we had a lot of homophobia in middle school as well.  I was horrified that I was attracted to girls and hoped that I wouldn't be gay.  When I got a little older I noticed that my attraction was more like 50/50 between the girls and the boys. But I noticed that other girls developed crushes on boys so I felt like I should too.  I'd actually look around at my classmates and try to pick the one or two that I felt I should fixate on.  If I felt attracted to any girls (I can still think of some), I tried to dismiss them as not an option.

By my twenties I'd say I had an 80-90% preference for men.  How much of that was my choice?  I don't know for sure, but I think that mental associations can play a role.  For example one person here said that we are not born with foot fetishes and stuff.  But if we continually associate sexual desire with one gender  we might actually be able to feel more genuine attraction to that gender. 

Now I'm sure there are lesbians out there that were horrified at their initial observations of being attracted to women, and maybe they made the same choices as me but realized that they were still more attracted to women.  And this doesn't explain what's going on with the cases where children growing up suffer from gender identity issues. I find those cases very sad. 

But I wonder if what seems to me like a recent celebration of gays may influence those who are more on the fence.
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Re: Thoughts on gay rights?

Post by jafs » Tue Feb 23, 2016 8:11 pm

Fred wrote:
jafs wrote: And I am.

As well as polyandry and group marriages.
Okay, now we are getting somewhere. Do you think this should be the universal law on planet earth? As long as it's between consenting adults and doesn't hurt anybody it should be allowed? If a group of people went off to live on an island because they believed in traditional morality as they see it, according to the Bible, and wanted to build a society on those principles, should they be left alone or should your view of morality be imposed on them?
I don't know about universal planet earth laws - that's a pretty big category.

But, yes, generally speaking, I find that consenting adults should be able to do as they like if they're not hurting other people.

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Re: Thoughts on gay rights?

Post by Michellebell » Tue Feb 23, 2016 8:17 pm

jafs wrote:
Michellebell wrote:
jafs wrote: Can you really not see the huge difference between homosexuality and pedophilia?

One involves consenting adults, and the other doesn't, and that's a major difference between them.
JAFS I have noticed some comparisons of these by several people here and I agree.  They are completely different.  Pedophilia is undoubtedly harmful to society and must be treated as such. 

Homosexuality is different than pedophilia, which occurs within heterosexuals as well as homosexuals... But as far as recognizing and striving for the most stable families, heterosexuality appears to me to be the best option, and our culture is no longer promoting it as such.

Honestly I am pretty embarrassed to be even saying these things, as I've always tried to be tolerant and open-minded.
I see no reason that a straight family is more likely to be stable than a gay or lesbian one.  Infidelity and divorce statistics among straight people show that pretty clearly.

Stable families are a good thing, if the families are happy ones, of course.
Infidelity and divorce statistics are significantly higher amongst homosexuals though, from the sources I have encountered. 

Now is this grounds to deny adoption rights to gay men who may indeed be one of the small minority that is able to stay committed?  It's not fair to them, but I wouldn't feel comfortable giving a baby or seeing a baby I care about to be adopted to a couple like that.
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Re: Thoughts on gay rights?

Post by Michellebell » Tue Feb 23, 2016 8:27 pm

jafs wrote: And I am.

As well as polyandry and group marriages.
Wow, I was surprised by this.  I watched quite a few episodes of Sister Wives, and I guess they seemed happy enough...but it was just unsettling to me.  I knew those women were jealous and really battling that continuously. 

Now I wonder if we will move in that direction.  I feel like all these options would make it harder to stay committed, but I had never even considered this before.  What would happen if "marriage" became such an open term?
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Re: Thoughts on gay rights?

Post by Libertarian666 » Tue Feb 23, 2016 9:45 pm

Michellebell wrote:
jafs wrote: And I am.

As well as polyandry and group marriages.
Wow, I was surprised by this.  I watched quite a few episodes of Sister Wives, and I guess they seemed happy enough...but it was just unsettling to me.  I knew those women were jealous and really battling that continuously. 

Now I wonder if we will move in that direction.  I feel like all these options would make it harder to stay committed, but I had never even considered this before.  What would happen if "marriage" became such an open term?
I predict the first lawsuit will be launched any day now. All of the arguments against polygamy were used against gay marriage and failed, so it is only a matter of time before that is legal too.

Which is fine with me. Actually I would prefer that people be able to make their own marital contracts with whatever terms they prefer.
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Re: Thoughts on gay rights?

Post by Michellebell » Wed Feb 24, 2016 6:51 am

Libertarian666 wrote:
Michellebell wrote:
jafs wrote: And I am.

As well as polyandry and group marriages.
Wow, I was surprised by this.  I watched quite a few episodes of Sister Wives, and I guess they seemed happy enough...but it was just unsettling to me.  I knew those women were jealous and really battling that continuously. 

Now I wonder if we will move in that direction.  I feel like all these options would make it harder to stay committed, but I had never even considered this before.  What would happen if "marriage" became such an open term?
I predict the first lawsuit will be launched any day now. All of the arguments against polygamy were used against gay marriage and failed, so it is only a matter of time before that is legal too.

Which is fine with me. Actually I would prefer that people be able to make their own marital contracts with whatever terms they prefer.
I don't know.  I feel like if people can make it up however they want, we might as well just do away with the whole concept of marriage.
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Re: Thoughts on gay rights?

Post by jafs » Wed Feb 24, 2016 7:32 am

Michellebell wrote:
jafs wrote:
Michellebell wrote: JAFS I have noticed some comparisons of these by several people here and I agree.  They are completely different.  Pedophilia is undoubtedly harmful to society and must be treated as such. 

Homosexuality is different than pedophilia, which occurs within heterosexuals as well as homosexuals... But as far as recognizing and striving for the most stable families, heterosexuality appears to me to be the best option, and our culture is no longer promoting it as such.

Honestly I am pretty embarrassed to be even saying these things, as I've always tried to be tolerant and open-minded.
I see no reason that a straight family is more likely to be stable than a gay or lesbian one.  Infidelity and divorce statistics among straight people show that pretty clearly.

Stable families are a good thing, if the families are happy ones, of course.
Infidelity and divorce statistics are significantly higher amongst homosexuals though, from the sources I have encountered. 

Now is this grounds to deny adoption rights to gay men who may indeed be one of the small minority that is able to stay committed?  It's not fair to them, but I wouldn't feel comfortable giving a baby or seeing a baby I care about to be adopted to a couple like that.
Please share your sources.

Something like 70-80%of straight couples experience infidelity, and about 50% of straight marriages end in divorce, last time I looked.  Those are staggeringly high numbers.

And, until recently, gay/lesbians didn't have the legal right to marry in all states.  We should wait until some time has passed in which they have that right across the country to compare statistics with straight couples, I'd think.

Why not?  If I were working in the adoption field, sexual orientation wouldn't be a major factor for me in placing children.  I'd be concerned about things like financial stability, a healthy/happy relationship of the couple, thoughtfulness about how to raise children, etc.  Also, I'm not sure why you think that gay male couples are more stable than lesbian ones - in my experience, that's not necessarily true.
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