Figuring Out Religion

[Mountaineer]

has anyone ever put together an unadulterated or as unadulterated as possible version of the bible? one with a direct translation from original language and all the available texts included?

Young's literal translation is about as close to what you might be looking for as I can think of.

If you're looking for original documents there aren't any available. They only have copies of copies of copies to work from. God inspired men to write the originals but not to save them.

it is the general idea of what i had in mind... but it was done a long time ago in 1862, and it seems to have some controversial use of tortured English grammar being used to mimic Greek grammar, maybe that is unavoidable i am not sure.. i don't know if it included non cannon text, it doesn't seem to, and it also predates the dead sea scrolls and any other modern discovery's of original or more original texts...

One of the more accurate newer translations is the NASB - it is rather wooden in its style if read aloud.  Other generally recognized as among the better translations are the ESV, RSV, and even the AV or Good News.  None are perfect, most, if not all are translated by committee.  One really needs to be able to read Koine Greek for the Second Testament and Hebrew for the First; our LCMS Pastors have to be able to do that to get their Seminary degrees.  It is much more convenient, although not perfect, to get a good Study Bible with notes.  My personal favorite currently is:  https://www.cph.org/p-11334-the-luthera ... k=354  Then, when I have questions, I talk with my Pastor.  The good news is that almost any good translation will give you every thing you need for salvation.  The differences in transalations are relatively minor and not salvific.

... M

[Mountaineer]

has anyone ever put together an unadulterated or as unadulterated as possible version of the bible? one with a direct translation from original language and all the available texts included?

Young's literal translation is about as close to what you might be looking for as I can think of.

If you're looking for original documents there aren't any available. They only have copies of copies of copies to work from. God inspired men to write the originals but not to save them.

it is the general idea of what i had in mind... but it was done a long time ago in 1862, and it seems to have some controversial use of tortured English grammar being used to mimic Greek grammar, maybe that is unavoidable i am not sure.. i don't know if it included non cannon text, it doesn't seem to, and it also predates the dead sea scrolls and any other modern discovery's of original or more original texts...

Interestingly, the AV (or the Authorized King James Version) of 1611 was based on either 7 or 11 (I forget which) manuscripts that were commonly available at the time and is extremely accurate even after the discovery at Nag Hammadi (Dead Sea Scrolls) and the thousands of manuscripts we now have available to aid translation.  God's Word seems somehow to endure quite well.

... M

[Mountaineer]

sadly my interest in clean translation and non cannon text is more about comparing the message that it would give me compared to the modern faith, modern church interpretation than it was for my own salvation... 

i have a sneaking suspicion that the clean, unchanged and complete message might actually lead to a quite different church, and a quite different version of Christianity and meaning being given to the teaching of Jesus..

I don't have any good ideas to help you with that.  Maybe you could email or somehow contact Bart Ehrman  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bart_D._Ehrman  as he somehow left the Christian faith swayed by something - I don't know the details of what he studied that got him to change, but I think he went the agnostic route vs. the Buddhism route.

... M

[screwtape]

I don't have any good ideas to help you with that.  Maybe you could email or somehow contact Bart Ehrman  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bart_D._Ehrman  as he somehow left the Christian faith swayed by something - I don't know the details of what he studied that got him to change, but I think he went the agnostic route vs. the Buddhism route.

... M

my inclination is that if such a text or compilation existed it would tend to lend itself toward a simpler, less convoluted and illogical interpretation than modern Christianity and lean more towards a gnostic, mystical/spiritual understanding. and almost certainly not what ever kind of weird intellectual academic critique the fellow you linked to came up with..  i have already read some gnostic christian texts and have a couple books with a bunch more of them in my reading list (gnostic bible, gnostic gospels) i will report back my impressions when i get around to reading them..

You can try reading the early Church fathers. I had the whole 10 volume set and would offer it to you but I gave it to the library. I think you can find it all online however.

It's interesting reading but I don't think they're going to give you the kind of information you're looking for because they mostly represent a snapshot of what orthodox thinking was at the time. The only thing you will learn about gnosticism comes from writings condemning it by people like Justin Martyr. Most of the gnostic writings, where they actually get to speak for themselves, were destroyed and there isn't much available. I believe Elaine Pagel is the current go-to source on gnosticism, at least as far as popular authors go. As Mountaineer mentioned, Bart Ehrman has a book called "Lost Christianities" that I finished not long ago and it will tell you a lot about the current state of scholarship in regards to early church writings before the Orthodox purge began.

Edit: I never finished reading that 10 volume set. At some point, probably about halfway through, I gave up my quest for historic Christianity realizing that I wasn't going to find what I was looking for. It's not there. As Jesus said, "the kingdom of God is within you".

[screwtape]

one of the books i listed above is by Elaine Pagel. i may give Lost Christianities a try if get a chance, the amazon description looks good..

As Jesus said, "the kingdom of God is within you".

what a very gnostic sounding thing to say

Don't let what some Christians say about Bart Ehrman dissuade you from reading him. Listening to them you would think he is bent on writing sensationalist books for the sole purpose of subverting people's faith. In reality, he is like a popular science author, like say Carl Sagan, just summarizing what is the current state of scholarship for the layman. He makes no attempt to persuade you either way and doesn't care what you believe. It's just the facts, ma'am.

[Mountaineer]

"

one of the books i listed above is by Elaine Pagel. i may give Lost Christianities a try if get a chance, the amazon description looks good..

As Jesus said, "the kingdom of God is within you".

what a very gnostic sounding thing to say

the Wikipedia page made him sound like a fountain of pointless academic minutia, much of which is regarded as being suspect by other scholars of academic minutia, (Wikipedia bias perhaps ) the actual description of his book sounded like something i might enjoy reading.. 

i am not much swayed by the christian and their scorn of atheists and skeptics nor by the atheists scorn for christens...

I purchased and watched several years ago a DVD series from the Learning Company (not sure if that is the correct title) by Bart and Amy ?? (forget her name, a Jewish First Testament academic) on gnostic material, perhaps was the video version of Lost Christianities.  It was interesting, but solidified my faith in the Christian version.  YMMV.

... M

[Mountaineer]

I don't have any good ideas to help you with that.  Maybe you could email or somehow contact Bart Ehrman  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bart_D._Ehrman  as he somehow left the Christian faith swayed by something - I don't know the details of what he studied that got him to change, but I think he went the agnostic route vs. the Buddhism route.

... M

my inclination is that if such a text or compilation existed it would tend to lend itself toward a simpler, less convoluted and illogical interpretation than modern Christianity and lean more towards a gnostic, mystical/spiritual understanding. and almost certainly not what ever kind of weird intellectual academic critique the fellow you linked to came up with..  i have already read some gnostic christian texts and have a couple books with a bunch more of them in my reading list (gnostic bible, gnostic gospels) i will report back my impressions when i get around to reading them..

You can try reading the early Church fathers. I had the whole 10 volume set and would offer it to you but I gave it to the library. I think you can find it all online however.

It's interesting reading but I don't think they're going to give you the kind of information you're looking for because they mostly represent a snapshot of what orthodox thinking was at the time. The only thing you will learn about gnosticism comes from writings condemning it by people like Justin Martyr. Most of the gnostic writings, where they actually get to speak for themselves, were destroyed and there isn't much available. I believe Elaine Pagel is the current go-to source on gnosticism, at least as far as popular authors go. As Mountaineer mentioned, Bart Ehrman has a book called "Lost Christianities" that I finished not long ago and it will tell you a lot about the current state of scholarship in regards to early church writings before the Orthodox purge began.

Edit: I never finished reading that 10 volume set. At some point, probably about halfway through, I gave up my quest for historic Christianity realizing that I wasn't going to find what I was looking for. It's not there. As Jesus said, "the kingdom of God is within you".

This might keep one occupied for a while:

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/index.html

... M

[screwtape]

I suspect that the process of compiling inerrant biblical canons is sort of like the process of making sausage.

And you know there's a saying that if you ever saw how they made sausage you would never want to eat it again.

I know that curiousity killed the cat, but since I'm not a feline, I'll go ahead and ask:

Why the madbean --> screwtape change?  Are you a CS Lewis fan?  Why not wormwood; did you wish to be a mentor or go for the authoratative position of senior? 

... Mountaineer

I was once a fan of C.S. Lewis, especially the fantasy trilogy. I lately read a quote from him however, which I can't seem to find, wherein he said that once you become a Christian you should shut off your mind and not listen to voices that disagree with the Bible. So he would be considered a heretic in the church I currently belong to.

Why did I change my name from madbean? Well, I originally just picked madbean from a drop down list googling on "screen names" and thought it was time for a name more appropriate to my forum identity. Kind of like Jesus changing Simon to Peter.

[screwtape]

the Wikipedia page made him sound like a fountain of pointless academic minutia, much of which is regarded as being suspect by other scholars of academic minutia, (Wikipedia bias perhaps ) the actual description of his book sounded like something i might enjoy reading.. 

i am not much swayed by the christian and their scorn of atheists and skeptics nor by the atheists scorn for christens...

I don't know. Seems to me like he can take a very dry subject to most people and make it sound interesting which is what I've heard that a lot of his students say about him.

[screwtape]

God inspired me to write this post.

And he told me to change my screen name from Madbean to screwtape.

[screwtape]

That is what Scripture says.  If you choose to believe Price instead of Scripture, so be it. 

Price is Right!

But I'm reasonably confident based on what I've learned from a couple of his books that if I were to call myself a follower of his, he would kick my ass.

[MediumTex]

That is what Scripture says.  If you choose to believe Price instead of Scripture, so be it. 

Price is Right!

Your words are masterful.  Such technique!

[MachineGhost]

Your words are masterful.  Such technique!

Too bad a million isn't what it used to be...  they really need to inflation adjust all these game show prizes so they're not such a yawn.

[Mountaineer]

This Preacher Price is right on his theology (or Price is Right show) is a great example of man worshiping a god instead of God.  Even though a $1,000,000 prize is mere pocket change these days, there are many who would give their right (fill in the blank) to get it.  Whatever you set your heart on and put your trust in is truly your god - whether you call it god or not.  Even Preacher Price basically is worshiping his ability to just "decide" to get faith as if he could force God to give it to him or his congregation.  Whoever trusts and boasts that he has a great skill, prudence, power, favor, friendship, and honor also has a god.  It is better to acknowledge rather than deny it, as identifying the problem goes a long way toward identifying a solution.  Idolatry makes for a very strong truth diverter.

I would however agree the price of salvation is completely right - it is free and you have to do nothing to get it other than believe - no money or goods or selling your soul to the high bidder required. 

... M

[Gosso]

And you know there's a saying that if you ever saw how they made sausage you would never want to eat it again.

I know that curiousity killed the cat, but since I'm not a feline, I'll go ahead and ask:

Why the madbean --> screwtape change?  Are you a CS Lewis fan?  Why not wormwood; did you wish to be a mentor or go for the authoratative position of senior? 

... Mountaineer

I was once a fan of C.S. Lewis, especially the fantasy trilogy. I lately read a quote from him however, which I can't seem to find, wherein he said that once you become a Christian you should shut off your mind and not listen to voices that disagree with the Bible. So he would be considered a heretic in the church I currently belong to.

Why did I change my name from madbean? Well, I originally just picked madbean from a drop down list googling on "screen names" and thought it was time for a name more appropriate to my forum identity. Kind of like Jesus changing Simon to Peter.

I doubt CS Lewis would say something like that.  Keep in mind that Lewis was highly influenced by George MacDonald who was a universalist.  Lewis had a great love for philosophy, literature, mythology and fairy tales from all cultures...he was hardly closed minded.  He accepted Biblical inerracncy, but was not a biblical literalist.

Google "cs lewis, reason, imagination, universalism" and you'll find a great paper from Virginia Tech on how Lewis had universalist tendencies.  Here is the abstract:

"Though he is generally known as one of the key voices in conservative Christianity, this
thesis demonstrates that C. S. Lewis was in fact far more liberal in his view of salvation
than many would expect. Lewis argued for a universalist interpretation of salvation, in
which the death of Christ opened up the possibility of salvation for all of humanity, not
merely those people who could be identified as Christians. Lewis did believe that people
could and did choose Hell over Heaven, however, and still saw evangelism as the duty of
every Christian. All of Lewis’s writings are in a sense evangelistic, and all attempt to
effect the conversion of the reader in the same manner in which Lewis himself was first
drawn to Christianity: by baptizing the imagination in the hope that the reason will
follow."

[screwtape]

I was once a fan of C.S. Lewis, especially the fantasy trilogy. I lately read a quote from him however, which I can't seem to find, wherein he said that once you become a Christian you should shut off your mind and not listen to voices that disagree with the Bible. So he would be considered a heretic in the church I currently belong to.

I doubt CS Lewis would say something like that.

I believe the author I was reading was referring to Lewis' essay, "The Obstinacy of Belief". The author's summary of that essay was that Lewis said that once you come to a reasonable belief in Christianity then it is reasonable to reject evidence to the contrary after that. Or something like that. I didn't read the essay so I don't know if that was a good summary or not.

[Mountaineer]

Douglas Wilson on gay marriage:

So in response to Kevin DeYoung’s very pertinent questions to rainbow-affirming Christians, Matthew Vines has responded with 40 questions of his own, these directed at Christians who are, as he puts it, “non-affirming.” Being as I am found in that latter category, let me have a shot at it.

What I want to do is either answer Matthew’s questions, or explain why I will not take the bait of answering a particular question. Put another way, I will answer the questions, but not the loaded questions.

http://dougwils.com/s7-engaging-the-cul ... e-q-a.html

Desert,

Thanks for that link.  I had not read Douglas Wilson before.  He sure took apart and spit out the snarky, provocative, chip on the shoulder, I'm smart and you are not, rainbow poser. 

... M

[Mountaineer]

My Pastor sent a great note on "the cure" to our congregation this morning. 

... M

I expand below the quotation that I mention often: 1 Peter 3:15.  Within its immediate context, it rings even louder and clearer after The Supreme Court's recent decision regarding marriage - which is a gift from God to be enjoyed by one man and one woman and is not merely a legal right for everybody! 

Having read a good amount regarding this decision from other Christians who believe The Bible to be God's inspired word to humanity, the consensus is starkly clear:  from a cultural perspective the decision should not surprise us, for it is a continuation of the rejection of Christianity in what is called Western Civilization. This began all the way back in The Enlightenment (1650s-1750s) and has continued up to this point through the most recent cultural convulsion that has deliberately demeaned The Bible - The Sexual Revolution. 

It is painful to witness this downfall around us, and it will continue according to Revelation.  Already in an article from Politico on June 26 Fredrik Deboer is arguing for the next logical step now that gay marriage is legal: polygamy.  We are witnessing the full manifestation of Satan's temptation (" But the serpent said to the woman, "You will not surely die. For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil" (Genesis 3:4-5)), of which the father of The Enlightenment, Renee Descartes, was in-your-face aware when he wrote, "I think, therefore I AM."  What he meant is, "I think, therefore I am god." 

We are witnessing the idolatry of self in our culture at a new level!  Jesus is the only cure.  This is what the Apostle Paul teaches:  "So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus" (Romans 6:11). 

This is the dynamic that happens every Sunday at Concordia:  we die as sinners (Baptism and Confession) and we are made alive to God in Christ Jesus (Baptism, Absolution, and The Supper). 

Come Sunday to hear the promises of Jesus!

In Christ,
Pastor Dave

------


13 Now who is there to harm you if you are zealous for what is good? 14 But even if you should suffer for righteousness' sake, you will be blessed. Have no fear of them, nor be troubled, 15 but in your hearts honor Christ the Lord as holy, always being prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you; yet do it with gentleness and respect, 16 having a good conscience, so that, when you are slandered, those who revile your good behavior in Christ may be put to shame. 17 For it is better to suffer for doing good, if that should be God's will, than for doing evil. 1 Peter 3:15

[screwtape]

I was once a fan of C.S. Lewis, especially the fantasy trilogy. I lately read a quote from him however, which I can't seem to find, wherein he said that once you become a Christian you should shut off your mind and not listen to voices that disagree with the Bible. So he would be considered a heretic in the church I currently belong to.

I doubt CS Lewis would say something like that.

I believe the author I was reading was referring to Lewis' essay, "The Obstinacy of Belief". The author's summary of that essay was that Lewis said that once you come to a reasonable belief in Christianity then it is reasonable to reject evidence to the contrary after that. Or something like that. I didn't read the essay so I don't know if that was a good summary or not.

I don't doubt at all that Lewis would say and believe something like this because much the same thing was taught by the Apostle Paul when he said, "casting down arguments and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God, bringing every thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ." I know from many years of experience that Christians are taught to do this. I now see it like the Christian version of Nirvana, the complete cessation of rational thought. Once attained, the Christian can accept that the world was created in six days, that the problem of suffering can be explained by the Adam and Eve/Forbidden Fruit/Sinners in the hands of an angry God story, that God decided to drown every living creature on earth but saved enough humans and animals on a boat to start over again, that two million people marched out of Egypt, spent 40 years in the wilderness, and then drove out the inhabitants of Canaan without leaving one piece of archaeological evidence behind. And finally, in the fullness of time, and in accordance with many prophecies pulled completely out of context with absolutely no relation to the actual events, a charismatic, miracle working apocalyptic preacher comes on the scene preaching that the Kingdom of God is at hand, but he gets himself killed by the Romans at the urging of "the Jews". Not to worry however, because he rises from the dead, and eventually the church councils figure out that he really was the third person of a triune God consisting of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. And furthermore he's still coming back to kill all the unbelievers, cast them into a lake of fire, and set up his kingdom on earth.

Believers like to say of those that depart from the faith like me that we never really believed in the first place. I think there is an element of truth to this. I read the Bible, prayed, fasted, went to church, felt the presence of God, and even spoke in tongues, but looking back I can see that I never succeeded in eradicating all the doubts and they overcame me. I think I had the full armor of God on but I probably let down my sword.

Actually I think it was like in the move "Inception" where Leonardo DiCaprio is able to go into people's dreams but he has to have some way of keeping himself from going in too far and not being able to come back. So he sets a top spinning and that way he can tell. If the top keeps spinning, he knows this isn't possible according to the laws of nature and thus he's still in the dream. I guess you could say I finally saw that the top kept spinning, and spinning, and spinning, and I knew I had to get out of here while there was till time. So now I live in the no-spin zone.

And thus ends my Sunday Sermon. Have a glorious day.

[Mountaineer]

Believers like to say of those that depart from the faith like me that we never really believed in the first place. I think there is an element of truth to this. I read the Bible, prayed, fasted, went to church, felt the presence of God, and even spoke in tongues, but looking back I can see that I never succeeded in eradicating all the doubts and they overcame me. I think I had the full armor of God on but I probably let down my sword.

screwtape,

I suspect you really did believe, and likely still do to some degree, even if subconsciously.  I do think one can lose faith, after having had it (just like garden plants, once healthy, can die if they are not properly nurtured).  I think there is always hope for regaining that faith if you hear the Word proclaimed faithfully.

Your statement above seems that you were in a version of Christianity that emphasized what "you do" (e.g. just pray harder and all will be OK) rather than what Christ did "for you".  My perspective is those in the "you do" version have a fairly high probability of falling off the road into the pride ditch or the despair ditch.  Why not come back to the center of the road - try traditional, confessional Lutheranism (warning, that is a sales pitch  ).  I hope you have a glorious day too!

... M

[screwtape]

pride ditch or the despair ditch.  Why not come back to the center of the road - try traditional, confessional Lutheranism (warning, that is a sales pitch  ).  I hope you have a glorious day too!

I WAS a Lutheran for about 10 years, but not LCMS. Whether it was "traditional, confessional", I don't know what that means.

[Mountaineer]

pride ditch or the despair ditch.  Why not come back to the center of the road - try traditional, confessional Lutheranism (warning, that is a sales pitch  ).  I hope you have a glorious day too!

I WAS a Lutheran for about 10 years, but not LCMS. Whether it was "traditional, confessional", I don't know what that means.

If you don't know what the Lutheran church you attended taught or believed, it likely was ELCA (unless you attended prior to 1988 when the ELCA was formed from the LCA, ALC and AELC merging) - but I'm guessing.  I was a member of the ELCA for about 10 years.  It was not confessional.  It was squishy as to what it really believed.  It ended up adapting to the culture rather than standing for much of anything.  I have been a member of the LCMS for about 5.  It is confessional.  It is liturgical.  It is traditional.  Perhaps liturgical is a more accurate word than traditional.  To save you from having to do a Google search, enjoy:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confessional_Lutheranism

http://www.crosswalk.com/blogs/john-sho ... hurch.html

... M

[screwtape]

This happened on that infamous play at the end of the Super Bowl.....

“The play happens, and they pick the ball off. And I take three steps,” Wilson said. “And on the third step God says to me, ‘I’m using you. . . . I want to see how you respond. But most importantly I want them to see how you respond.”

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/20 ... erception/

Of course! That interception was all part of God's plan! God figured it was time for Tom Brady to win one instead.

The SeaHawk fans better hope God doesn't have the same plans for him in the future.

At least I know God likes to watch professional football.

[MediumTex]

My Pastor sent a great note on "the cure" to our congregation this morning. 

... M

I expand below the quotation that I mention often: 1 Peter 3:15.  Within its immediate context, it rings even louder and clearer after The Supreme Court's recent decision regarding marriage - which is a gift from God to be enjoyed by one man and one woman and is not merely a legal right for everybody! 

Having read a good amount regarding this decision from other Christians who believe The Bible to be God's inspired word to humanity, the consensus is starkly clear:  from a cultural perspective the decision should not surprise us, for it is a continuation of the rejection of Christianity in what is called Western Civilization. This began all the way back in The Enlightenment (1650s-1750s) and has continued up to this point through the most recent cultural convulsion that has deliberately demeaned The Bible - The Sexual Revolution. 

It is painful to witness this downfall around us, and it will continue according to Revelation.  Already in an article from Politico on June 26 Fredrik Deboer is arguing for the next logical step now that gay marriage is legal: polygamy.  We are witnessing the full manifestation of Satan's temptation (" But the serpent said to the woman, "You will not surely die. For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil" (Genesis 3:4-5)), of which the father of The Enlightenment, Renee Descartes, was in-your-face aware when he wrote, "I think, therefore I AM."  What he meant is, "I think, therefore I am god." 

We are witnessing the idolatry of self in our culture at a new level!  Jesus is the only cure.  This is what the Apostle Paul teaches:  "So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus" (Romans 6:11). 

This is the dynamic that happens every Sunday at Concordia:  we die as sinners (Baptism and Confession) and we are made alive to God in Christ Jesus (Baptism, Absolution, and The Supper). 

Come Sunday to hear the promises of Jesus!

In Christ,
Pastor Dave

------


13 Now who is there to harm you if you are zealous for what is good? 14 But even if you should suffer for righteousness' sake, you will be blessed. Have no fear of them, nor be troubled, 15 but in your hearts honor Christ the Lord as holy, always being prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you; yet do it with gentleness and respect, 16 having a good conscience, so that, when you are slandered, those who revile your good behavior in Christ may be put to shame. 17 For it is better to suffer for doing good, if that should be God's will, than for doing evil. 1 Peter 3:15

Wait a second, in the Old Testament the apple of God's eye was David, and he had 30 wives.  I don't recall God saying anything about that, and in fact God didn't really get annoyed with David until he capped his buddy to make Bathsheba wife #31.  (God expressed his displeasure with David over that incident by killing his newborn baby.)

Solomon was supposed to be the smartest man who ever lived and another of God's favorites and he had 400 wives and 600 other chicks on the side.

Has God changed his views on marriage since then?

[Mountaineer]

My Pastor sent a great note on "the cure" to our congregation this morning. 

... M

I expand below the quotation that I mention often: 1 Peter 3:15.  Within its immediate context, it rings even louder and clearer after The Supreme Court's recent decision regarding marriage - which is a gift from God to be enjoyed by one man and one woman and is not merely a legal right for everybody! 

Having read a good amount regarding this decision from other Christians who believe The Bible to be God's inspired word to humanity, the consensus is starkly clear:  from a cultural perspective the decision should not surprise us, for it is a continuation of the rejection of Christianity in what is called Western Civilization. This began all the way back in The Enlightenment (1650s-1750s) and has continued up to this point through the most recent cultural convulsion that has deliberately demeaned The Bible - The Sexual Revolution. 

It is painful to witness this downfall around us, and it will continue according to Revelation.  Already in an article from Politico on June 26 Fredrik Deboer is arguing for the next logical step now that gay marriage is legal: polygamy.  We are witnessing the full manifestation of Satan's temptation (" But the serpent said to the woman, "You will not surely die. For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil" (Genesis 3:4-5)), of which the father of The Enlightenment, Renee Descartes, was in-your-face aware when he wrote, "I think, therefore I AM."  What he meant is, "I think, therefore I am god." 

We are witnessing the idolatry of self in our culture at a new level!  Jesus is the only cure.  This is what the Apostle Paul teaches:  "So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus" (Romans 6:11). 

This is the dynamic that happens every Sunday at Concordia:  we die as sinners (Baptism and Confession) and we are made alive to God in Christ Jesus (Baptism, Absolution, and The Supper). 

Come Sunday to hear the promises of Jesus!

In Christ,
Pastor Dave

------


13 Now who is there to harm you if you are zealous for what is good? 14 But even if you should suffer for righteousness' sake, you will be blessed. Have no fear of them, nor be troubled, 15 but in your hearts honor Christ the Lord as holy, always being prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you; yet do it with gentleness and respect, 16 having a good conscience, so that, when you are slandered, those who revile your good behavior in Christ may be put to shame. 17 For it is better to suffer for doing good, if that should be God's will, than for doing evil. 1 Peter 3:15

Wait a second, in the Old Testament the apple of God's eye was David, and he had 30 wives.  I don't recall God saying anything about that, and in fact God didn't really get annoyed with David until he capped his buddy to make Bathsheba wife #31.  (God expressed his displeasure with David over that incident by killing his newborn baby.)

Solomon was supposed to be the smartest man who ever lived and another of God's favorites and he had 400 wives and 600 other chicks on the side.

Has God changed his views on marriage since then?

MT,

Are you asking this question seriously?  I think I have described how Scripture interprets Scripture (the hermeneutic that Lutherans think is most trustworthy) many, many times.  I understand if you do not agree with that method, many don't.  But to keep asking the same question repeatedly, expecting to get a different answer ..........................



If you are really asking seriously, I apologize.  Short version is that pretty much the whole OT from the fall onward is a story of mankind spiraling downward when they abandon God and pointing to how futile it is for man to try and save himself - thus the OT points to the need for a Savior.  Do you think David was the apple of God's eye because of his sinning, or because he recognized his sin, repented and turned back to God?

... M