1NV35T0R (Greg) wrote:
To the agnostics (and to a lesser extent the atheists), do you want to believe in Christianity in the idea of a loving Jesus that saves us from ourselves and we can spend eternal happiness with him, but just can't get around the errors/ambiguity you find?
I am sure that Jesus is loving and can save us from ourselves, and that's why we have his teachings right there in front of us to follow when we decide to.
It's spending eternity with him that is a different matter, since I am mortal and have no idea what eternity even means. It's clearly another dimension from the one we inhabit, and thus I don't think it's possible for us to know much, if anything, about it.
Even if I can't prove God/Christianity, I still love God/Jesus, and want to have a relationship with my creator (whoever that is) both in this life, and ideally in the next life as well to always be with him. While on Earth, I am a sinner and will consistently fail, but I'm going through my life to 1.) continually better myself, 2.) to love others, even if it is difficult to do, 3.) leave the world better than when I found it when I pass away from this world.
You and I are exactly the same, except I think that I love Jesus more than God because Jesus didn't kill any babies and he never wiped out all of humanity because he was mad at us.
I agree with a lot of what you say. I think God (the Trinity) inhabits something like a 5th or greater dimension. Why? According to Scripture, he always was, he created our 3 dimensional physical world complete with a 4th dimension of time, entered our dimensions as a man, then went back. That is why we currently can't see God, or our Guardian Angels, the heavenly host, Satan, demons and such.
... Mountaineer
Put not your trust in princes, in a son of man, in whom there is no help. Psalm 146:3
Mountaineer wrote:
Objective eye witness evidence: Jesus appeared 12 times to different group sizes ranging from one to 500. Google "12 groups saw Jesus resurrected" at www3.telus.net if you like. Many of those were still alive when 1 Cor was written - could have been easily disputed. And FWIW, this is another item I've previously addressed (I think).
Hearsay evidence is not objective evidence.
Unless we can talk to the people who say they saw Jesus after he died and compare their stories, that "evidence" is of zero value in determining whether Jesus rose from the dead.
If there were people around who disputed it, I would assume that their accounts would not have made it into the Bible. In fact, for the people who didn't see a resurrected Jesus walking around, how would they have even known what Paul had written in a letter to a church hundreds of miles away? Would they care? I wouldn't.
Q: “Do you have funny shaped balloons?”
A: “Not unless round is funny.”
Mountaineer wrote:
Easy, it is the one that is most correct with Scripture. LCMS that is. The ELCA has fallen into the secular siren's trap I fear. As the Church Lady said on Saturday Night Live - S A T A N .
So this was Luther's Reformation. Why wasn't the Orthodox Church more suitable as didn't that come before the Catholic Church? Why didn't you just go to whatever dogma was before the Orthodox/Catholic Church became an institution?
I pretty much did. That is what the Lutheran Reformation was all about - getting back to what was before all the corruption crept in due to the influence of men wanting to make religion serve them rather than vice versa.
Edit: Actually, if I had to pick something other than the LCMS, I'd have to do a lot more thinking and study, but I'd probably go with Orthodox even they have a different understanding of Sanctification than I think is correct. But they would be close enough. No religion is perfect since it is practiced by sinners. I can't put a Pope on the same weight as Scripture and the RC church has gotten rather liberal in its views - too much on social justice and not enough on Scripture for my taste. I also do not think the idea of purgatory is Scriptural.
... Mountaineer
Last edited by Mountaineer on Sat Jun 13, 2015 6:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Put not your trust in princes, in a son of man, in whom there is no help. Psalm 146:3
Pointedstick wrote:
Strictly speaking, I don't want to believe anything. I have a very strong drive to discover the truth, and then believe that because I have determined that it is true. If I later discover that I was wrong and that it is false, or that it became false later, or whatever, I will abandon it, and I have done this many times in my own life on a variety of subjects. The idea of sticking to a belief system that did not make sense to me or could be poked full of unexplainable holes is a foreign concept to me. I would be happy to believe in Christianity if its precepts could be proven true, but it seems that is impossible. Since Christianity holds no emotional appeal for me, and since there is no peer pressure in my life pushing me towards it, I don't particularly see any reason to believe in it.
I am primarily participating in this thread to try to understand others. To me, Christianity is a huge ball of contradictions wrapped up in brutal or unappealing stories. I am trying to understand what attracts people to it, basically. So far, I'm pretty much only seeing see family/peer pressure and professed supernatural experiences.
Can humans ever create something the is absolutely factual and absolutely clear? There has been a lot of touching of the Bible from when it was created to what we are reading now. Different versions, different translations, etc. Over-time, it can become perverted or changed, even if it is through good intentions or unintentional. It's one of the reasons why I like reading the Bible more as life lessons rather than always as factual stories and that I look at overall themes of Jesus. He was a perfect guy who told others that he wants a relationship with them. If you want to have a relationship with him, he'll invite you to his house to be friends in the next life. I like that.
What I'm trying to understand is why the Bible was every treated as truth in the first place? It's a book written by a group of men who had a story to tell and an agenda to advance, which is true of countless other spiritual leaders through history.
It's weird to be put in a position of having to "disprove" the Bible when none of it was ever proven in the first place.
The Bible is similar to Jesus - Jesus is fully God and fully man. The Bible was fully written by man in accordance with what God wanted written. It is not either or, it is both and.
... Mountaineer
Put not your trust in princes, in a son of man, in whom there is no help. Psalm 146:3
If that evidence is so objective and robust, why shouldn't we be convinced by it? And if we shouldn't be, why call our doubt "denial?" This is very inconsistent... please clarify
If your faith was "based on objective evidence," then why call it faith? To the degree that your "faith" goes beyond "objective evidence," then you are in fact taking a leap, are you not?
You seem to be running in circles here... which is perhaps most precisely evident when you state that your "faith is based on objective evidence."
And we are back to what I said is the fundamental question. Or, why do you believe billions have been duped and you have it right?
I don't believe that billions have been duped. I think that Christianity gives many people exactly what they want, which is a religion that will ease their fears about death, while making allowances for them to do pretty much whatever they want during their lives so long as they ask forgiveness when they do something that they feel bad about.
Q: “Do you have funny shaped balloons?”
A: “Not unless round is funny.”
Mountaineer wrote:
I pretty much did. That is what the Lutheran Reformation was all about - getting back to what was before all the corruption crept in due to the influence of men wanting to make eligion serve them rather than vice versa.
Well, you get bonus brownie points for being thorough!
"All generous minds have a horror of what are commonly called 'Facts'. They are the brute beasts of the intellectual domain." -- Thomas Hobbes
Disclaimer: I am not a broker, dealer, investment advisor, physician, theologian or prophet. I should not be considered as legally permitted to render such advice!
MediumTex wrote:
I don't believe that billions have been duped. I think that Christianity gives many people exactly what they want, which is a religion that will ease their fears about death, while making allowances for them to do pretty much whatever they want during their lives so long as they ask forgiveness when they do something that they feel bad about.
My understanding is forgiveness is only a concept in Catholicism. Otherwise, its off to hell for you!
"All generous minds have a horror of what are commonly called 'Facts'. They are the brute beasts of the intellectual domain." -- Thomas Hobbes
Disclaimer: I am not a broker, dealer, investment advisor, physician, theologian or prophet. I should not be considered as legally permitted to render such advice!
madbean2 wrote:
A case in point is the issue I have just raised about earthquakes. Science says that they are caused by volcanic activity and shifting tectonic plates, a process that has been going on in the earth for billions of years. The creation story says that death entered into the world through the disobedience of Adam and Eve and if you follow the Biblical timeline this was fairly recent. So how do you solve that dilemma or do you think it is not an intellectual exercise worthy of your time? Just believe the Word of God. End of Story?
Earthquakes are caused by naked women on top of volcanoes.
Q: “Do you have funny shaped balloons?”
A: “Not unless round is funny.”
madbean2 wrote:
I don't see where it takes a lot of faith to believe the scientific claims about what causes earthquakes. Sounds entirely plausible to me. Especially when weighed against the belief that they are part of God's punishment for humans disobeying God's commandments. I can well understand this belief in primitive cultures. Not so much in ours.
So you think it is just a coincidence when a woman walks to the top of a volcano and takes off her clothes and then an earthquake occurs?
Q: “Do you have funny shaped balloons?”
A: “Not unless round is funny.”
MediumTex wrote:
So you think it is just a coincidence when a woman walks to the top of a volcano and takes off her clothes and then an earthquake occurs?
She could have known ahead of time there was going to be a volcanic earthquake through measurement regularity and took advantage of the opportunity. She could have been a Wiccan or some such shite.
Last edited by MachineGhost on Sat Jun 13, 2015 7:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"All generous minds have a horror of what are commonly called 'Facts'. They are the brute beasts of the intellectual domain." -- Thomas Hobbes
Disclaimer: I am not a broker, dealer, investment advisor, physician, theologian or prophet. I should not be considered as legally permitted to render such advice!
MediumTex wrote:
I don't believe that billions have been duped. I think that Christianity gives many people exactly what they want, which is a religion that will ease their fears about death, while making allowances for them to do pretty much whatever they want during their lives so long as they ask forgiveness when they do something that they feel bad about.
My understanding is forgiveness is only a concept in Catholicism. Otherwise, its off to hell for you!
Seriously? Wow!
... Mountaineer
Put not your trust in princes, in a son of man, in whom there is no help. Psalm 146:3
MachineGhost wrote:
We're not all at the level of Mother Theresa.
At some point, Mother Teresa stopped believing in God.
Read some of what she wrote later in life.
I suspect that happens to a lot of spiritual leaders, but at some point your investment is too great to just walk away, especially if it's how you make your living.
Q: “Do you have funny shaped balloons?”
A: “Not unless round is funny.”
MachineGhost wrote:
We're not all at the level of Mother Theresa.
At some point, Mother Teresa stopped believing in God.
Read some of what she wrote later in life.
I suspect that happens to a lot of spiritual leaders, but at some point your investment is too great to just walk away, especially if it's how you make your living.
I think that happens a lot more than we think. Almost all of the Pastors I know have more "issues" in their families than most of us - physically and mentally challenged children seem to be a front runner. Satan attacks those who proclaim God's Word, I'm convinced. No proof - just observation of a small data set.
... Mountaineer
Put not your trust in princes, in a son of man, in whom there is no help. Psalm 146:3
Mountaineer wrote:
MG, I think I sort of get where you are coming from. I would pose if one thinks there is no sin or sinner, then there is no need for a Savior. Thus the worldview of eat, drink and make merry because that is all there is and do good only when it is to ones personal benefit. It is a religion of self. And, if you really believe that, hey, it is a worldview. Am I even close?
... Mountaineer
Ooooooooooohhhhhhhhhhhh, we're going to talk about how believing in something that gives you a ticket to immortality in paradise involves no "personal benefit."
Q: “Do you have funny shaped balloons?”
A: “Not unless round is funny.”
If that evidence is so objective and robust, why shouldn't we be convinced by it? And if we shouldn't be, why call our doubt "denial?" This is very inconsistent... please clarify
If your faith was "based on objective evidence," then why call it faith? To the degree that your "faith" goes beyond "objective evidence," then you are in fact taking a leap, are you not?
You seem to be running in circles here... which is perhaps most precisely evident when you state that your "faith is based on objective evidence."
And we are back to what I said is the fundamental question. Or, why do you believe billions have been duped and you have it right?
I don't believe that billions have been duped. I think that Christianity gives many people exactly what they want, which is a religion that will ease their fears about death, while making allowances for them to do pretty much whatever they want during their lives so long as they ask forgiveness when they do something that they feel bad about.
That sounds very Marxist (opiate for the masses) for a capitalist.
... Mountaineer
Put not your trust in princes, in a son of man, in whom there is no help. Psalm 146:3
Mountaineer wrote:
MG, I think I sort of get where you are coming from. I would pose if one thinks there is no sin or sinner, then there is no need for a Savior. Thus the worldview of eat, drink and make merry because that is all there is and do good only when it is to ones personal benefit. It is a religion of self. And, if you really believe that, hey, it is a worldview. Am I even close?
... Mountaineer
Ooooooooooohhhhhhhhhhhh, we're going to talk about how believing in something that gives you a ticket to immortality in paradise involves no "personal benefit."
I suspect if one is a genuine believer in the promises of Jesus, personal benefit is not the motivation - that would make it "all about me" instead of "all about God". FAIL, no ticket???????
... Mountaineer
Put not your trust in princes, in a son of man, in whom there is no help. Psalm 146:3
Pointedstick wrote:
It's interesting stuff, Desert. And for all I know, maybe there was an intelligent designer. Maybe aliens seeded the first life, or maybe God did. Maybe things started off being designed and then started evolving from there. Or maybe it really is all 100% evolution, right from primordial combinations of amino acids or something. I don't know. I'm open to any of those being true. However, what I am unwilling to do is assert with perfect certainty that one is true and all the other are false, especially given imperfect information about any of them, or even especially one of the mire implausible ones.
If I wanted to argue passionately and vociferously for the "aliens seeded Earth with life" hypothesis, people would probably regard me as a crank, even though it might be true, because there's just no evidence for it. It's a cool theory, a nice idea, and it may even be true, but that's a long way from it being a defensible and debate-worthy assertion.
God created Aliens. Aliens created life on earth. Seems simple enough.
Sure, maybe so.
PS, your post above was outstanding. Thank you.
Q: “Do you have funny shaped balloons?”
A: “Not unless round is funny.”
1NV35T0R (Greg) wrote:
Some of this is explained in that the wages of sin is death. Any sin we do is punishable via death according to a perfect being who can't tolerate sin. The only way they were able to get back on God's good side was through sacrifices which involved death, blood, etc. God eventually decided that even though he hated sin, that he'd want to send his son to earth to pay the wages of humanity's sin through his death.
I wouldn't say God is sadistic. He has exceptionally high standards for his kingdom for entry which would be no sin and it is an absolute. You either have no sin and go in, or have sin and get cast away.
If God can't tolerate sin, why did he create it? That's a strange thing to do.
Might you not say he permitted it because he did not create puppets and we were the ones who are responsible for the sin? What do you think?
... Mountaineer
If God created us in His Image, does that mean that God Himself constantly struggles with sin, even though sin is something He created Himself?
If God doesn't struggle with sin, why would we? Where would a creature that was 100% righteous get the idea to create an inferior race of beings that were 50% righteous and 50% evil so that he could sit in the sky and watch them endlessly strugggle with their own natures, sending a LOT of them to Hell for eternity? That sounds sadistic.
Q: “Do you have funny shaped balloons?”
A: “Not unless round is funny.”
Mountaineer wrote:
I have a question for us to ponder but it might turn the thread in a slightly different direction. For those who do not like Christianity as a worldview, what worldview is more appealing to you and why do you believe that? Worldview being the best explanation of what you see happening in the world and why it is happening, why we are here, where did we come from, where are we going, our place in the world, etc.
I would propose a belief system called "Jesusanity", and it would focus on modeling one's life after the life of Jesus as it is recorded in the New Testament, sans the supernatural window dressing.
Basically like the Jefferson Bible? Make the religion a pragmatic moral system for only while we are on this side of death?
... Mountaineer
Yes, although I don't know if I would call it "this side of death." I might say "during life" instead, and that covers you for both mortal AND immortal life. I don't plan to act any different in the afterlife than I act now. Why would I? If I thought there were a better way to act, I would start acting that way now, not after I died.
Q: “Do you have funny shaped balloons?”
A: “Not unless round is funny.”
MediumTex wrote:
If God created us in His Image, does that mean that God Himself constantly struggles with sin, even though sin is something He created Himself?
If God doesn't struggle with sin, why would we? Where would a creature that was 100% righteous get the idea to create an inferior race of beings that were 50% righteous and 50% evil so that he could sit in the sky and watch them endlessly strugggle with their own natures, sending a LOT of them to Hell for eternity? That sounds sadistic.
I'm so glad I'm a secular humanistic modern deist. Life is very simple without having to constantly worry about theology, scriptures and what "God" wants or does not want.
"All generous minds have a horror of what are commonly called 'Facts'. They are the brute beasts of the intellectual domain." -- Thomas Hobbes
Disclaimer: I am not a broker, dealer, investment advisor, physician, theologian or prophet. I should not be considered as legally permitted to render such advice!
MediumTex wrote:
What I'm trying to understand is why the Bible was every treated as truth in the first place? It's a book written by a group of men who had a story to tell and an agenda to advance, which is true of countless other spiritual leaders through history.
It's weird to be put in a position of having to "disprove" the Bible when none of it was ever proven in the first place.
The Bible is similar to Jesus - Jesus is fully God and fully man. The Bible was fully written by man in accordance with what God wanted written. It is not either or, it is both and.
... Mountaineer
Isn't that like saying that a character in a book is similar to the book? What you are actually saying is that the character is a feature of the book that stood out to you, right?
Supernatural Son of God Jesus doesn't appear anywhere except the Bible.
Q: “Do you have funny shaped balloons?”
A: “Not unless round is funny.”
What's really starting to stand out to me is the certainty, or lack of it. It seems like the believers here have a real problem with cosmic uncertainty. This is difficult for me to understand, given the vast depth of the major world religions. People write PhD dissertations discussing the challenges posed by the contradictions and mysteries of religions. And yet what is constantly expressed here is a deep discomfort with admitting that these issues exist in the first place. Instead, there has to be a 100% true absolutely certain religious explanation for every seeming contradiction, no matter how ridiculous it sounds. What's so deeply unsettling about admitting that there may be contradictions or issues with your chosen belief system?
Human behavior is economic behavior. The particulars may vary, but competition for limited resources remains a constant.
- CEO Nwabudike Morgan
MediumTex wrote:
I don't believe that billions have been duped. I think that Christianity gives many people exactly what they want, which is a religion that will ease their fears about death, while making allowances for them to do pretty much whatever they want during their lives so long as they ask forgiveness when they do something that they feel bad about.
That sounds very Marxist (opiate for the masses) for a capitalist.
... Mountaineer
I think that Marx liked the idea that there was such an effective tool for controlling the minds of the oppressed.
I, OTOH, do NOT like the idea of such a tool having so much power over people, unless that is what they really want.
Q: “Do you have funny shaped balloons?”
A: “Not unless round is funny.”
Mountaineer wrote:
The Bible is similar to Jesus - Jesus is fully God and fully man. The Bible was fully written by man in accordance with what God wanted written. It is not either or, it is both and.
Are you implying the Apostles channeled God/Jesus to write The Holy Bible?!!
"All generous minds have a horror of what are commonly called 'Facts'. They are the brute beasts of the intellectual domain." -- Thomas Hobbes
Disclaimer: I am not a broker, dealer, investment advisor, physician, theologian or prophet. I should not be considered as legally permitted to render such advice!
Desert wrote:
I understand. You're definitely not a blind follower of ideas. Unfortunately, the school teachers educating our kids, the college profs, and the museum builders are doing exactly what you describe above in bold.
I'm in the process of writing my "personal belief statement," and my post is one section of that. It's somewhat analogous to an investment policy statement, but far more important. Our beliefs surrounding our origin spill over into the way we live our lives, so I consider it one of the foundational beliefs.
Would it be any different if evolution was taught instead? I'm pretty sure they wouldn't be teaching a complex theology, just "God created the world in six days..." This is just the nature of childhood education. Kids learn the declarative statements of fact (or theory), not the complexity underpinning them. They can't understand the theoretical/philosophical/logical support for stuff until much later.
Human behavior is economic behavior. The particulars may vary, but competition for limited resources remains a constant.
- CEO Nwabudike Morgan
