Epstein

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Ad Orientem
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Re: Epstein

Post by Ad Orientem » Sat Aug 10, 2019 11:14 am

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It's been a longtime since a death was so certain to fuel conspiracy theories.
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Re: Epstein

Post by Maddy » Sat Aug 10, 2019 12:02 pm

A lot of people have got to be damned panicked to do the very thing we predicted would happen. It's as though the DS is no longer concerned about having a credible cover; they're scrambling to save themselves without any ascertainable plan and without any regard for the long-term consequences.
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Re: Epstein

Post by Ad Orientem » Sat Aug 10, 2019 1:03 pm

While I can understand the explosion of conspiracy theories over this, my gut says that Occam's razor applies. It is far more likely that one or more people dropped the ball and Epstein was able to kill himself. But in situations like this, truth and facts quickly become meaningless. There is a certain percentage of the population with a predisposition to conspiracy theorism who have long since decamped to their own "24" alternate reality and they aren't coming home. And when things happen that look so bloody awful, it can push otherwise reasonable people into that dark alternative universe, at least when dealing with the given subject. The murder of President Kennedy being a prime example.
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Re: Epstein

Post by Maddy » Sat Aug 10, 2019 3:03 pm

Ad Orientem wrote:
Sat Aug 10, 2019 1:03 pm
While I can understand the explosion of conspiracy theories over this. . .
So you don't believe that people of extreme wealth and power conspire with one another?

I can't really imagine why Epstein, who presumably could have cut just about any deal he wanted with the prosecution, would need to kill himself. All the more so if he was, indeed, an intelligence asset. Unless, of course, the prospect of continuing to live was a less tenable alternative than self-inflected death. Which would then raise the question: What (who) was Epstein afraid of?
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Re: Epstein

Post by Ad Orientem » Sat Aug 10, 2019 5:16 pm

Of course people can conspire. But conspiracies involving high profile murder don't usually remain secrets for long, when they are real. And I don't think Epstein could cut whatever deal he wanted. That card had already been played and had caused a public scandal. Epstein knew he was going away for life and had a pretty good idea what life in the can was going to be like for a convicted serial child molester. He very sensibly decided it was time to check himself out of the hotel.
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Re: Epstein

Post by Kriegsspiel » Sat Aug 10, 2019 6:33 pm

Maddy wrote:
Sat Aug 10, 2019 3:03 pm
I can't really imagine why Epstein, who presumably could have cut just about any deal he wanted with the prosecution, would need to kill himself. All the more so if he was, indeed, an intelligence asset.
Imagine how surprised he was!
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Re: Epstein

Post by drumminj » Sat Aug 10, 2019 9:01 pm

Ad Orientem wrote:
Sat Aug 10, 2019 5:16 pm
But conspiracies involving high profile murder don't usually remain secrets for long, when they are real.
I'm not sure how one could state this as a fact. It presumes knowledge of all conspiracies involving high profile murder, even those that have remained secret, no?

For all we know, a large number of conspiracies have remained secret and we remain ignorant.
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Re: Epstein

Post by Mountaineer » Sun Aug 11, 2019 4:03 am

An anecdote: I have a good friend who was a long time Philadelphia police detective. He supports the conspiracy theory as the most likely cause.
DNA has its own language (code), and language requires intelligence. There is no known mechanism by which matter can give birth to information, let alone language. It is unreasonable to believe the world could have happened by chance.
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Re: Epstein

Post by Maddy » Sun Aug 11, 2019 8:45 am

Ad Orientem wrote:
Sat Aug 10, 2019 5:16 pm
But conspiracies involving high profile murder don't usually remain secrets for long, when they are real.
One would think that to be true, and it certainly is true with respect to the private lives of ordinary citizens, but history has shown that the Elite have managed to pull of a great many of their heists in total, or near-total, secrecy. A good example was the Manhattan Project in Los Alamos involving the development of the first atomic bomb, which employed over 120,000 Americans between the years 1942 and 1945, in addition to a large number of internationally renowned scientists recruited from all over the world. The question how such a massive project with earthshaking ramifications could remain secret is an intriguing question. The best answer I can muster is that information about the project was highly compartmentalized, with only a small group of privileged insiders privy to the knowledge that an atomic bomb was being developed. However, the degree of compartmentalization required to pull off a project of that magnitude would have required an almost unfathomable degree of coordination, not to mention a sprawling population of scientists and employees strangely content to go to work every day having no idea what they were doing. Logically, it seems, the objective of complete and total secrecy would have been impossible to achieve without some secondary mechanism for identifying and managing leaks. Which brings us to another painfully timely topic involving control files and well-placed bullets.

More recently, it appears that during the Bush II and Obama administrations, more than $21 trillion went missing from the balance sheets of two federal agencies alone (HUD and DOD). (See the work of Professor Mark Skidmore and his PhD-candidate students, verifying "undocumentable adjustments" in that amount.) So how does it happen that two federal agencies can shuttle out the back door an amount roughly equivalent to the National Debt without anybody knowing about it?

To me, the question is not whether the Elite is controlling a vast number of government operations in secret, but what sinister mechanisms it may be using to maintain that secrecy.
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Re: Epstein

Post by dualstow » Sun Aug 11, 2019 9:48 am

Mountaineer wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 4:03 am
An anecdote: I have a good friend who was a long time Philadelphia police detective. He supports the conspiracy theory as the most likely cause.
This guy?
https://images.app.goo.gl/wc3M1gdzLpiJSTME7
RIP Marcello Gandini
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Re: Epstein

Post by Tyler » Sun Aug 11, 2019 10:31 am

Ad Orientem wrote:
Sat Aug 10, 2019 5:16 pm
Of course people can conspire. But conspiracies involving high profile murder don't usually remain secrets for long, when they are real.

Know the right people and conspiracies don't need to remain secret. Epstein's pedophile ring ran out in the open for decades.

This is one of those situations where the truth is so unbelievable that gaslighting perfectly rational questioners as conspiracy theorists is part of the coverup strategy. You have a well-connected billionaire who claimed to be in finance but nobody knows where his money actually came from. He owned a private island that includes a creepy temple adorned with pagan statues that contains nothing but a bed. He regularly flew in powerful visitors like Bill Clinton, Alan Dershowitz, and Prince Andrew on a plane called the "Lolita Express", and he was blatantly trafficking young girls to the point where locals refer to it as "Pedophile Island". He also owned a massive compound in New Mexico where he planned to seed the world with his DNA by impregnating hundreds of women at a time. Authorities had him dead to rights years ago, but the lead prosecutor was informed Epstein belonged to US intelligence. In a negotiated plea deal, he ended up serving only 13 months in "jail" where he was allowed to hire his own private security detail and work from home 12 hours a day, six days a week. He also inexplicably received immunity from further prosecution in the process, and the details of his sentence were kept secret from the victims in the case. Basically, he was a well-known sexual abuse mastermind who absolutely flaunted it but was completely untouchable until only recently.

Just a few years ago, Epstein's protected status as the coordinator of an elite pedophile ring was all just a conspiracy theory. But investigators persisted and now it's all spelled out in legal documents, flight logs, and witness testimony. To me, we're well beyond conspiracy theory here and anyone dismissing the dark, dark underbelly of the situation is living in willful ignorance.

Epstein was an evil man servicing evil men, and his death was the most predictable element of the entire saga. My one hope is that the suspicious circumstances make the spotlight even brighter. The entire system that supported him needs to be pulled up by the roots and burned.
Last edited by Tyler on Sun Aug 11, 2019 5:27 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Epstein

Post by Maddy » Sun Aug 11, 2019 11:46 am

You're right, Tyler-- Much of that dark underbelly has been right out there in plain view.

However, what remains largely in the dark is how a ring of pedophiles could effectively come to own and control everything that matters, including Congress, a majority of federal judges, and the heads of virtually every government agency right on down to the local level. IMHO, the stuff that's been out there in plain view is just the tip of the iceberg. It represents the narcissistic flaunting of people for whom being above the law is not enough; they need for everyone to know it.
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Re: Epstein

Post by clacy » Sun Aug 11, 2019 9:02 pm

Maddy wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 11:46 am
You're right, Tyler-- Much of that dark underbelly has been right out there in plain view.

However, what remains largely in the dark is how a ring of pedophiles could effectively come to own and control everything that matters, including Congress, a majority of federal judges, and the heads of virtually every government agency right on down to the local level. IMHO, the stuff that's been out there in plain view is just the tip of the iceberg. It represents the narcissistic flaunting of people for whom being above the law is not enough; they need for everyone to know it.


I totally agree. Call it a conspiracy theory, but there is tons of evidence of this if you look into it. Both sides have been in on it over the last 50+ years. It's about control and narcissism.
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Re: Epstein

Post by dualstow » Sun Aug 11, 2019 9:17 pm

Tyler wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 10:31 am
Ad Orientem wrote:
Sat Aug 10, 2019 5:16 pm
Of course people can conspire. But conspiracies involving high profile murder don't usually remain secrets for long, when they are real.

Know the right people and conspiracies don't need to remain secret. Epstein's pedophile ring ran out in the open for decades.

This is one of those situations where the truth is so unbelievable that gaslighting perfectly rational questioners as conspiracy theorists is part of the coverup strategy. You have a well-connected billionaire who claimed to be in finance but nobody knows where his money actually came from. He owned a private island that includes a creepy temple adorned with pagan statues that contains nothing but a bed. He regularly flew in powerful visitors like Bill Clinton, Alan Dershowitz, and Prince Andrew on a plane called the "Lolita Express", and he was blatantly trafficking young girls to the point where locals refer to it as "Pedophile Island". He also owned a massive compound in New Mexico where he planned to seed the world with his DNA by impregnating hundreds of women at a time. Authorities had him dead to rights years ago, but the lead prosecutor was informed Epstein belonged to US intelligence. In a negotiated plea deal, he ended up serving only 13 months in "jail" where he was allowed to hire his own private security detail and work from home 12 hours a day, six days a week. He also inexplicably received immunity from further prosecution in the process, and the details of his sentence were kept secret from the victims in the case. Basically, he was a well-known sexual abuse mastermind who absolutely flaunted it but was completely untouchable until only recently.

Just a few years ago, Epstein's protected status as the coordinator of an elite pedophile ring was all just a conspiracy theory. But investigators persisted and now it's all spelled out in legal documents, flight logs, and witness testimony. To me, we're well beyond conspiracy theory here and anyone dismissing the dark, dark underbelly of the situation is living in willful ignorance.

Epstein was an evil man servicing evil men, and his death was the most predictable element of the entire saga. My one hope is that the suspicious circumstances make the spotlight even brighter. The entire system that supported him needs to be pulled up by the roots and burned.
Good Lord!
RIP Marcello Gandini
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Re: Epstein

Post by Xan » Sun Aug 11, 2019 10:29 pm

Maddy wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 11:46 am
However, what remains largely in the dark is how a ring of pedophiles could effectively come to own and control everything that matters, including Congress, a majority of federal judges, and the heads of virtually every government agency right on down to the local level.
Isn't that a bit of hyperbole? At least, I hope it is. The majority of federal judges?

Also, a quibble... Pedophilia is attraction to prepubescent children. That isn't what's been going on here. These were underage in the sense that we don't consider them mature enough to consent, but they weren't really "children", biologically. I'm not defending any of this awful behavior, but we may as well label it correctly.

Maddy, the scale of what you describe is reminiscent of what may or may not have been happening in the Roman Catholic Church for the past few decades. Horrifying.
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Re: Epstein

Post by Tyler » Mon Aug 12, 2019 12:07 am

Xan wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 10:29 pm
Also, a quibble... Pedophilia is attraction to prepubescent children. That isn't what's been going on here. These were underage in the sense that we don't consider them mature enough to consent, but they weren't really "children", biologically. I'm not defending any of this awful behavior, but we may as well label it correctly.
Fair enough. To be precise, I've seen reports he targeted girls as young as 12. Call it what you want, but we're not talking about grown women.
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Re: Epstein

Post by WiseOne » Mon Aug 12, 2019 7:00 am

Absolutely amazing that this kind of thing could go on for years out in the open. It is impossible that law enforcement in multiple places in the US and around the world could have missed it. Didn't anyone connect missing children reports with appearance of minor girls without passports in NYC, or be at all motivated to do something useful like contacting parents or getting testimony from these girls? It does make you feel like people of female gender don't merit any official consideration. Though I'm not sure if things would have gone differently if the children were male.

Are there credible sources for an official conspiracy theory, as opposed to simple incompetence and laziness, combined with a reluctance to go after someone of apparent great wealth? And, it will be very interesting indeed to get some firm information about which high profile politicians were on this guy's guest list.
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Re: Epstein

Post by Tyler » Mon Aug 12, 2019 10:37 am

WiseOne wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 7:00 am
And, it will be very interesting indeed to get some firm information about which high profile politicians were on this guy's guest list.

2000 pages of legal documents from a lawsuit by one of his victims were unsealed 24 hours before he died. A brief summary of names named:
Giuffre said in several depositions that Maxwell and Epstein trafficked her to powerful men for sex. In 2016, she said Maxwell specifically instructed her to serve former New Mexico Gov. Bill Richardson, Britain’s Prince Andrew, wealthy financier Glenn Dubin, former Senate Majority Leader George Mitchell, modeling scout Jean-Luc Brunel, and scientist Marvin Minsky. She also says Maxwell and Epstein directed her to have sex with “another prince,” a "foreign president," a well-known prime minister" and the owner of a “large hotel chain.” None of the men named have been charged with a crime and all have denied inappropriate behavior.
https://www.thedailybeast.com/the-bigge ... -documents
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Re: Epstein

Post by dualstow » Mon Aug 12, 2019 12:23 pm

Tyler wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 12:07 am
Xan wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 10:29 pm
Also, a quibble... Pedophilia is attraction to prepubescent children. That isn't what's been going on here. These were underage in the sense that we don't consider them mature enough to consent, but they weren't really "children", biologically. I'm not defending any of this awful behavior, but we may as well label it correctly.
Fair enough. To be precise, I've seen reports he targeted girls as young as 12. Call it what you want, but we're not talking about grown women.
I learned the term ephebophilia when we had a problem with a guy on another forum, say, 15 years ago, with a predilection for younger women. Needless to say, we had to let him go. As young as 12: hebephilia.

In any case, wiki says:
However, the term pedophilia is commonly used by the general public to refer to any sexual interest in minors below the legal age of consent, regardless of their level of physical or mental development.[3
-- same link as above
RIP Marcello Gandini
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Re: Epstein

Post by PP67 » Mon Aug 12, 2019 1:01 pm

I thought the quote of the day belonged to John McAfee: "I was stunned by Epstein's suicide, though probably not as much as Epstein himself."

One has to wonder (or certainly Ghillaine Maxwell should be wondering) if Maxwell might get "suicided" as well...
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Re: Epstein

Post by Libertarian666 » Mon Aug 12, 2019 6:34 pm

PP67 wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 1:01 pm
I thought the quote of the day belonged to John McAfee: "I was stunned by Epstein's suicide, though probably not as much as Epstein himself."

One has to wonder (or certainly Ghillaine Maxwell should be wondering) if Maxwell might get "suicided" as well...
I believe the technical term is "Arkancided".
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Re: Epstein

Post by Kriegsspiel » Mon Aug 12, 2019 8:26 pm

Officials said that Epstein had met for many hours each day with his legal team, and that both he and his lawyers had repeatedly assured the prison that he did not want to kill himself and had asked MCC to remove him from the suicide watch. link
Image

Image

Image



I wonder if Epstein had any kind of deadman switch in place.
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Re: Epstein

Post by Maddy » Tue Aug 13, 2019 10:21 pm

Xan wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 10:29 pm
Pedophilia is attraction to prepubescent children. That isn't what's been going on here. These were underage in the sense that we don't consider them mature enough to consent, but they weren't really "children", biologically. I'm not defending any of this awful behavior, but we may as well label it correctly.
If you look at the pictures that are surfacing, some of these girls were quite child-like in appearance. Some were still in braces.
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Re: Epstein

Post by Mountaineer » Thu Aug 15, 2019 6:14 am

image1.png
image1.png (150.69 KiB) Viewed 9748 times
DNA has its own language (code), and language requires intelligence. There is no known mechanism by which matter can give birth to information, let alone language. It is unreasonable to believe the world could have happened by chance.
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Re: Epstein

Post by Kriegsspiel » Thu Aug 15, 2019 7:07 am

*Patiently awaiting the deepfakes*
You there, Ephialtes. May you live forever.
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